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It's a good tech that covers every option the opponent can possibly take while also being possible to execute on reaction as opposed to on a read, that just do happens to be tricky to execute. I'm sorry it doesn't fit your narrative that you've established for characters you don't play.
It killed sheik at 110 from the middle of FD in esam's video.
The difference is that we actually have an idea for why we're not seeing it used much.
I was actually doing some work with it today, and without rage and at the center of Omega Battlefield, Pikachu can kill Sheik at 125%.
Did your main get nerfed or something? Do you main a character that has hard time fighting pikachu? Because you're taking my simple facts awfully personally. I'm sorry that pika being able to cover all options out of an up throw to confirm a thunder strikes such a nerve.
Don't respond to a legitimate argument with such rudeness.
Who said 5%? It's a roughly 30% range.
Yeah, I'm not denying that. All I said was that it's possible to do it accurately and consistently.
I wasn't planning to make a Pikachu post, but since I've been "summoned," might as well.The irony here is that I know a Pikachu main who posts in this thread who has essentially stated this before.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Whoops.
Maybe you should ask "former" Pikachu players about these things
But this was pre-patch and they may actually have faith in Pikachu's merits again; Sheik isn't strictly better in 95% of game play anymore (and Meta Knight moving down a peg doesn't overtly ensure he's vastly better in nearly every threatening ability while sharing similarities).
Esam went into beast 6 without practicing the tech, he admitted this afterwards. Judging by the reaction times and dexterity of top level players, it is definitely possible to do this tech with consistency. It's still nothing compared to some melee inputs anyway.
You said it kills at 125
Nobody thinks Greninja is a top 10 characters, and Ranai's results are way better than ESAM's, yet people still struggle to fit Villager into top 10.
I agree, Pikachu is getting a lot of unexpected flak here.The CCI loves to underrate Pikachu.
Like he suddenly is not the combo machine he is, Quick Attack is not an amazing "Skip Neutral" tool, and doesn't have several conditioning and kill moves to finish off stocks out of raw reads at not ridiculous high percents like Mario.
And my favorite part is how the CCI states over and over that he has only one representative who is inconsistent as a player, so we count every 13th position but not the 2nd's and 3rd's for some reason.
Yet, we do glorify most of iStudying's and Ranai's solitary results and boost the impressions on their characters despite pretty much nobody else has results at the same scale as theirs.
Because it's obviously the characters, not the players.
Because of Pikachus matchup spread. While theoretical, he only has 3 disadvantageous matchups. You all need to stop saying results are the only thing that matters, Smash 4 is literally the only game with a community that takes tournament results into consideration when placing a character on a tier list. Based on matchup spread alone Pikachu and Rosalina would be the best in the game, both only having 3 matches they don't go even in or win. Ironically Rosalina wins against Pikachu's losing matchups while Pikachu wins against Rosalina's
I pretty much agree with all of this.
According to http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime, the median reaction time is 215 milliseconds. In my calculations from earlier, I used 300 milliseconds. In that context, I don't think your reaction time needs to be amazing. But you do need to put in a lot of effort and it can be easy to mess up.
I also said that that was in the latter half of the range. After that I said it was roughly 100-130%. I had Sheik at 125% in that gif because I was labbing options right around the time RAR Thunder stops working.
This kinda proves ぱみゅ's point. People in this thread underrate him so much. Here, it's just as bad as people who overrate him.
The only other top rep is NAKAT sometimes.
THIS^^^
at this point. Like he's a fine pick,but everybody keeps circlejerking about how not great he is like they did with. Amd to be honest it's rather stupid with how some(key word some) are hyping and to all hell. is no where near as strong as people say,but as long as she is viable she will forever crap on low level tournies.![[BROF]](/data/avatars/l/311/311817.jpg?1457213626){kind=avatar}
Taking results into consideration more than matchup spread is just going to glorify characters with great representation and human error. It's one of the few reasons other fighting game players don't take smash seriously. Its why characters like Pikachu are so severely under rated and characters like Bayonetta are so over rated. Bayonetta is slow and just playing her forces a slow paced match ONLY because Witch Time is so effective. This makes characters that thrive in slow paced environments i.e. grapplers, zoners, spacing based characters do well against her. This leads to a ton of even/losing matchups and not as many good matchups as you'd like to think. That's why I would only place her around no. 10 if I were to make a tier list. She does fine against the top tiers (other than Pikachu and Rosa) but loses or goes even/loses to way to many mid tiers to be top tier
Limit charge is the single best "come to me" move in the game. It forces approaching like no other move in the does. It's funny how a move like that ended on a swordsman. Also his lack of kill confirms dont affect him that much when you have access to limit cross slash. Having an smash attack that can be done in the air, with i-frames, and pretty much cooldown is downright amazing if you ask me. Seriously, I love limit side B so much. If Cloud was ever to get nerfed even more I hope L. Cross Slash stays the powerhouse it is.Like here:
He has a rather subpar recovery
Most of his limits are not that great
He has a ****ty throw game
His kill confirms seem to be land up air or limit side b
But still you would be damned to find anybody here that would say cloud isn't a contender for the top 5.
I say this because that's what we were told. I recall Pikas bringing up the idea quite often up until at least when Ryu and Roy came out, and as far as myself and others were aware it hadn't changed until ESAM started saying Pika beat Cloud.
You can't defend a characters position on a tier list using what you said, that doesn't matter when he still has a matchup spread that's barely above average. Also as I said before, that's what every other fighting game uses in its tierlist, theory. Actual data based on the number of options a character has vs another character is more reliable than tournament results will be. You also seem to have called Pikachu bad in theory because of what, 2 things? His benefits are overwhelmingly better than his cons. Great throws, excelent frame data, best recovery in the game, tied for best matchup spread, his neutral is ridiculous, approach is godlike, disadvantage is great with numerous landing options, his only real weakness is lack of kill power. Even then Pikachu isn't a character that straight up kills, its a character that gimps you at 40. Results account for human error and character representation. If you want to base your things off of results have fun with Cloud and Mario at the top of the list. That would be akin to putting Ryu at the top of the SF4 tierlist or worse, a Githubs tierlist
Pikachu's throws are average, he has an early % combo throw, and that's it. U-throw doesn't kill until ludicrous %s but does still count as a stock cap eventually. F-throw does ok damage but nothing spectacular.
It´s really mindblowing that this is the first comment with some objective and solid points in this thread.
Pikachu doesn't struggle to get in on Mario, he generally outranges Mario with his ground game. Pivot f-smash, d-tilt, and up-tilt are good ranged tools against Mario, and Mario only has his b-air in response really, which is not even half as good as Doc's b-air for the job due to the differences in their short hop heights, though it is decent in general in the MU.
Not sure I agree with this.
Pikachu's throws are great in the sense that assuming the Pikachu player is good they can get 30 - 40% with downthrow > upair > ff fair chaingrab, fthrow puts them offstage and sets up for gimps, combos into dash attack at lower percents. Bthrow is fthrow without the low % combos and further offstage, also a killthrow at 180. Uthrow is a 50/50 for a ton of damage or death.
He only makes good points because what he agrees with what you say. You haven't given me any actual data, just said I was wrong. Also, how would you recommend gimping a Bayonetta if you're so good at it? Not knocking her out of her second recovery and abusing her rather short, predictable recovery with Marths excellent disjointed aerials and frame 5 counter that spells her inevitable death at 70 because she decided to go offstage?
What do these characters have in common? quick escape options (f3 nair) or an equal juggle game against Pikachu, and most of them have higher reward per hit while outliving Pika percent-wiseI
In short, having more range isn't inherently an issue since there are exploitable drawbacks to it. The con of high recovery frames is especially something that works in Pikachu's favor since he can quickly punish these moves.
Oh and if you're curious:
These were the opinions of around 10 Pikachu mains, including players who actively participate in tournaments and those who do not.
Almost unanimous
About half agree, half disagree
Less than half
.
Bayo can be a tad frustrating to edgeguard if you mess up. If you eat an afterburner kick during your attempt she gets another one to use and get back on stage. :S
Using tournament placings directly to determine a character's position on the tier list is flawed indeed. But taking a character's tournament results into account is helpful, if not necessary to figure out how certain matchups go. Which in turn helps us coming to a conclusion where certain characters belong on the tier list. That's why the Greninja community needed to be kept in check a little after Beast VI - istudy's placing did not prove in any way that Greninja was high tier / underrated / whatever. But his wins helped us confirm that Greninja has a major advantage against Luigi, that he can beat Fox, that he does fine against both Diddy and Pikachu and that Sheik was the ultimate roadblock for him. That's matchup-specific information based on empirical evidence. Why would you *not* take that into account in a character analysis?
