Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

If Cloud is considered the best character in the game (which shouldn't be the case), then Samus would theoretically be very high on the tier list since she has a positive MU against him.

LOL. That's not how things work.

 

[Emblem Lord]

greninja players think they beat every character like brawl kirby players did

gren doesn't beat bayo or counter her. the MU is even. shadow sneak out of low percent combos isn't enough, and she can still hit him with higher percent kill setups or bully his shield because of his non existent oos game.

Change your name to savagechuu. smh my goodness. No mercy right here.

 

[Trifroze]

Samus is alright now, although still low tier. She seems to have several actually good matchups among top/high tier though, since her weaknesses aren't something every character can really exploit. Yet Samus still combines the worst roll, one of the worst grabs and an ultimately dysfunctional ftilt (up close) and jab, so pressure isn't fun for her and despite her aerial mobility buffs landing isn't easy either.

I could see Samus do well against the FE swordies (except Roy) since zair and CS force them to make the approach and they lack the rushdown to exploit Samus' poor tolerance to pressure, big characters due to being so easy to wall out, combo and juggle, and CQC oriented characters with not so special mobility like Luigi and Ryu. On the other hand Samus probably kinda dies to rushdown characters.

but that's when you take the suit off

 

[Emblem Lord]

Samus mains thought they beat Marth in Brawl too due to Zair meta stuff.

We saw how that turned out.

 

[Trifroze]

Samus mains thought they beat Marth in Brawl too due to Zair meta stuff.

We saw how that turned out.

I take it the actual reasons for why it turned out the way it did couldn't matter less to you as long as you get to post a one liner though. This isn't Brawl: Marth isn't nearly as good, Samus isn't nearly as bad, and zair now leads to actual high damage combos on top of already being a great spacing tool.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You didnt say much in this post, other then acknowledge my fetish for posting snappy one liners.

I would need to see more of her combos because if Zair can lead to 20% or more consistently then yea she takes the match. But in Brawl she was better at zoning overall and Marth had no issues getting in. I dont think that has changed though Marths reward being lower and hers being higher is a mitigating factor. Her weakness of crumpling in the face of offense is very apparent vs dtilt pressure and nair pressure which have been tough for her to deal with since Melee days and how these two chars interact at that footsie/close range hasnt really changed much over the years.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Good to see emblem lord making insightful posts. Thanks Shaya

 

[Nobie]

Even pre-patch I felt like Samus was a pain in the butt for Mewtwo. Something about her ability to throw out multiple aerials in one short hop and her heavy weight + floatiness makes it annoying to take her down before Rage becomes a factor.

Other matchups that I feel give Mewtwo a surprising amount of trouble: Ike, Bowser Jr.

 

[S_B]

Why do people thinks so low of Pikachu? He has the potential to be top 3, only issue Pikachu has is his lack of representation.

I think you answered your own question right there.

Same reason everyone thinks Yoshi has oodles of potential but won't place him that high in tier lists: he just doesn't have the results.

 

[L9999]

Why do people thinks so low of Pikachu? He has the potential to be top 3, only issue Pikachu has is his lack of representation. He has an excellente recovery, tons of comboes, a great neutral with sh dair, fair, quick attack, fh nair, and even pp fsmash works do to its range, he also can make good gimps, and uthrow thunder has like a 33.33% of landing, that is a great pseudo kill combo, imo if more top level players played Pikachu he would be as effective as ZSS or Sheik are now

I think people tunnel vision into ESAM too much, when there are other Pikachu players like Shimitake, NAKAT, and those local Pikachus that place high.

 

[Ninety]

Isn't he only a secondary for NAKAT, though? I've wondered before how Pikachu has so little representation with how theoretically good he is. Honestly, if he had one single legit kill confirm he'd rocket up the tier list along with ESAM's tournament results.

 

[Aaron1997]

Time for another #Opinion list
Very preliminary though.

Spoiler

Basically, to perform well against her your character needs: good projectile zoning, safe poking game and able to threat her with grabs (good burst range and/or good positioning and/or reward).
I think ZSS and Sheik belong on the "at least even" range but with the new nerfs I am not too sure anymore.
Also, Cloud belongs there as well but I didn't notice and I'm too lazy to remake the picture.

I would like some insight on Pacmans Placement becuase all the other Pacmans I've talked to thinks this match-up is terrible for Pacman.

 

[Trifroze]

You didnt say much in this post, other then acknowledge my fetish for posting snappy one liners.

I would need to see more of her combos because if Zair can lead to 20% or more consistently then yea she takes the match. But in Brawl she was better at zoning overall and Marth had no issues getting in. I dont think that has changed though Marths reward being lower and hers being higher is a mitigating factor. Her weakness of crumpling in the face of offense is very apparent vs dtilt pressure and nair pressure which have been tough for her to deal with since Melee days and how these two chars interact at that footsie/close range hasnt really changed much over the years.

Samus' long range zoning game was undoubtedly better in Brawl, but it's pretty clear her midrange is better here and that's where Marth generally wants to play from. Zair, ftilt and DA cover a lot of different situations and have massive range (burst in DA's case), and since the buffs to the latter two they're also safer than before. Zair -> DA should be real now, although even without zair confirm DA is virtually unpunishable by most characters now if spaced in a specific way, and since it leads to guaranteed 20-45% at low-mid percents it implicates quite a lot about her threat in midrange.

The mobility buffs help too, not just with pressure but with fading in and out with aerials. Ultimately though the shift in reward is what has changed the most and it's hard to say how it plays out without seeing the matchup actually played, but Ike and Corrin are the FE characters that matter the most right now.

 

[Goesasu]

Olimar destroys bayonetta btw, probably its her worst matchup.

Olimar doesnt commit with his pikmin projectiles, no fear to get witch timed, no need to be up close to get hit by witch twist, small size means no combos for her also fair and back air are hard as hell to hit with, finally his grab range is huge (blue pikmin) and can. Zone her with pikmin toss.

Olimar is bayos worst nightmare, food for though.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Pika's got issues killing anyone with a good recovery. He also dies to a stiff wind and doesn't like dealing with range. His top tier MUs are iffy outside of relatively good ones against Sheik and ZSS, which explains a lot of ESAM's inconsistent results. Pika's an anti-meta character for a meta that no longer exists. He's still fundamentally strong enough to stick around on the lower end of high tier, but is probably less useful now than he was pre-patch.

 

[L9999]

Isn't he only a secondary for NAKAT, though? I've wondered before how Pikachu has so little representation with how theoretically good he is. Honestly, if he had one single legit kill confirm he'd rocket up the tier list along with ESAM's tournament results.

His Pika is legit nonetheless. The point I'm trying to make is that the rat has results outside of ESAM, and that he has no rep is a lie. Non-ESAM Pika mains that are good: PikaForLife and Enki from Europe (you know, from where freaking Mr. R, istudying and Izaw come from) and Shimitake from Japan, which is freaking stacked. About kill confirms, avoid the Up Throw-Thunder debate, it is not worth your time.

 

[C0rvus]

ESAM said on Twitter when the patch was fresh that Pikachu beats Cloud. Is this just classic ESAM or is there something to this claim?

I'd love to hear his reasoning, as I've never seen the MU play out in high level. Just found an M2k/ESAM set from PAX a month ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMH8fYiObpI

I can see it being near even. Pikachu's burst mobility might be annoying for Cloud to deal with, and his offtstage game is nothing to scoff at. Pika's mobility and midrange pressure seems like it can make charging Limit annoying, and if Cloud can't get his early kills, he and Pika are on the same level.
You'd think just because of Pika's edgeguarding prowess Cloud would get bodied offstage, but it's harder to contest Cloud recovering high, as Pikachu can never seem to challenge Cloud's aerials and Climhazzard. I also noticed that Limit Climhazzard beats out Thunder Jolts, though I cannot say if regular Climhazzard does the same. M2k is just so intelligent off the stage that most of ESAM's kills came from dash attack lol.

I could see it being around even, and if it's true, then that could certainly keep Pika a relevant top level threat.

 

[BunbUn129]

Pika's got issues killing anyone with a good recovery. He also dies to a stiff wind and doesn't like dealing with range. His top tier MUs are iffy outside of relatively good ones against Sheik and ZSS, which explains a lot of ESAM's inconsistent results. Pika's an anti-meta character for a meta that no longer exists. He's still fundamentally strong enough to stick around on the lower end of high tier, but is probably less useful now than he was pre-patch.

The problem is that there is practically no reason to main Pikachu as long as Sheik exists. Pre-patch, these two--theoretically--had the same play style and character design. They ran circles in neutral and controlled it, racked up damage, but had difficulty finishing the job. In practice, Sheik had good KOing ability thanks to the 50/50. As such, Sheik's playstyle was notably different and superior in practice, as she barely had to commit to killing.

Post-patch, and the nerfs to Sheik have basically reduced her to an upgraded version of Pikachu--powerful neutral, versatile combo game, but sub-par KOing ability. Sheik still outclasses Pikachu in all these regards.

Furthermore, a perfect way to demonstrate all of Pikachu's flaws can be summed up in one scenario: in their last game at PAX South, Jband was at a 100% deficit, with ESAM at 13%. ESAM was one read away, or up throw, from taking the set. But then Jband landed a dash attack and carried him off the top. The reason Pikachu loses a number of top-tier MU's ( in particular, even after the nerfs) is mainly because his opponents can survive to unreal percentages, land a few hits, and KO Pikachu while sitting on a ton of rage.

 

[Yikarur]

The problem is that there is practically no reason to main Pikachu as long as Sheik exists.

"why do you main Sheik?"
"because it's a better Pikachu!"

said no one ever

 

[Amadeus9]

The problem is that there is practically no reason to main Pikachu as long as Sheik exists. Pre-patch, these two--theoretically--had the same play style and character design. They ran circles in neutral and controlled it, racked up damage, but had difficulty finishing the job. In practice, Sheik had good KOing ability thanks to the 50/50. As such, Sheik's playstyle was notably different and superior in practice, as she barely had to commit to killing.

Post-patch, and the nerfs to Sheik have basically reduced her to an upgraded version of Pikachu--powerful neutral, versatile combo game, but sub-par KOing ability. Sheik still outclasses Pikachu in all these regards.

Furthermore, a perfect way to demonstrate all of Pikachu's flaws can be summed up in one scenario: in their last game at PAX South, Jband was at a 100% deficit, with ESAM at 13%. ESAM was one read away, or up throw, from taking the set. But then Jband landed a dash attack and carried him off the top. The reason Pikachu loses a number of top-tier MU's ( in particular, even after the nerfs) is mainly because his opponents can survive to unreal percentages, land a few hits, and KO Pikachu while sitting on a ton of rage.

KOing at 13% is a thing of the past bro

As for Pika beating Cloud, its the same old Esam antics, I'm not sure why so many people take his opinions so seriously. Half the time I think everything he posts is part of some elaborate troll.

I am slowly starting to think, more and more, that MK is a bad MU for Cloud. I really want to see some top level play on this mu in 1.1.5, because if MK beats cloud that is a MASSIVE boon. We will see, I don't want to be too preemptive here!

 

[LancerStaff]

...Doesn't Pika just lose hard to swords?

 

[S_B]

Olimar destroys bayonetta btw, probably its her worst matchup.

Olimar doesnt commit with his pikmin projectiles, no fear to get witch timed, no need to be up close to get hit by witch twist, small size means no combos for her also fair and back air are hard as hell to hit with, finally his grab range is huge (blue pikmin) and can. Zone her with pikmin toss.

Olimar is bayos worst nightmare, food for though.

Even with her ability to get a pikimin stuck to her, then just stand near Oli and witch time? (legitimately curious)

 

[DungeonMaster]

I would need to see more of her combos because if Zair can lead to 20% or more consistently then yea she takes the match.

Yeah if you have a couple hours to blow on watching youtube and you want to know the incredibly gory details about Samus combos do check out my video:

I didn't widely advertise because nfortunately this video landed literally 3 hours before the major buff patch and they changed a pivotal piece of the combo equation, which is the DA 10% now basically only arises out of z-air, jump-ins and SM.
It's like a sour-spot now to the new 7%, which is better in every way for combos.
The net result is it does not change much at all, but I haven't had time to incorporate the changes into an addendum, and I likely won't get to it for a couple of weeks.

You can see the details of Z-air starter here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUrANmnrXwA#t=3567
with video examples showing how to do the dash attack, both from the ledge and on the ground.
Also check out the jab section, Samus' jab is highly technical but once you understand how and when to crouch cancel it, it does quite a bit of damage.

Everything in the video has been carefully tested vs. airdodge, DI, SDI, verified against a human. I go into great detail as to where the combo counter lies, and where it tells the truth.

 

[BunbUn129]

KOing at 13% is a thing of the past bro

As for Pika beating Cloud, its the same old Esam antics, I'm not sure why so many people take his opinions so seriously. Half the time I think everything he posts is part of some elaborate troll.

I am slowly starting to think, more and more, that MK is a bad MU for Cloud. I really want to see some top level play on this mu in 1.1.5, because if MK beats cloud that is a MASSIVE boon. We will see, I don't want to be too preemptive here!

So out of our top 3 (), MK destroys , and goes even at worst with and . The important point is, he does not have a definitively losing MU against the characters who are generally considered top 3. Say I'm exaggerating, but MK's top tier MU spread is looking overall better than pre-patch (good riddance , you will be remembered dearly).

And then so far the only MU where he's at a clear disadvantage is .

I'm digging this patch.

 

[momochuu]

i'm pretty sure at this point, everyone that plays a small character has claimed to have the advantage in the bayonetta matchup, despite absolutely not having an advantage against bayonetta. i've seen G&W players claim it, pikachus claim it, kirby players claim it (lol), now olimar? i'm just waiting on the jiggs players to show up next saying they beat bayonetta 90-10 because she falls out of one combo or something.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Olimar destroys bayonetta btw, probably its her worst matchup.

Olimar doesnt commit with his pikmin projectiles, no fear to get witch timed, no need to be up close to get hit by witch twist, small size means no combos for her also fair and back air are hard as hell to hit with, finally his grab range is huge (blue pikmin) and can. Zone her with pikmin toss.

Olimar is bayos worst nightmare, food for though.

Hiro, a Bayonetta player, defeated the best Olimar in Japan several days ago and yet you say that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx2dpL-9SF4

 

[Emblem Lord]

Man...me and Trifroze were having some great dialogue over this Samus stuff and you guys gotta come in and crash the party with discussion of the RODENT, yet again. *sigh* No new bromance for EL. Why can't EL have nice things?!?!

*Reads more talk about Pikachu even though Pika is super overrated*

Guys seriously ESAM is the only one doing things with this character. ONE person. wtf? I will NEVER understand the hype over this char. Strong in disadvantage with QAC for sure and some solid mix-ups, but how is Pika scary compared to the other top tier threats? Pika is def strong. But a top ten threat at MOST. I am seeing posts about some kill confirms. REAL ONES? Ok, good stuff. Lets see how that plays out. Till then, I will consider Pika the same as I did in Brawl. All ESAM hype, all the time.

 

[Planty]

finally his grab range is huge (blue pikmin)

It's whites with the huge range on grabs (especially white pivot grab. I don't know what the developers were thinking with that one). Blues have the strong throws. Purples have the short grab range. Red, yellow, blue have normal grab range (but still big).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Olimar destroys bayonetta btw, probably its her worst matchup.

Olimar doesnt commit with his pikmin projectiles, no fear to get witch timed, no need to be up close to get hit by witch twist, small size means no combos for her also fair and back air are hard as hell to hit with, finally his grab range is huge (blue pikmin) and can. Zone her with pikmin toss.

Olimar is bayos worst nightmare, food for though.

Actually, Bayonetta can Time the Pikmin's hits. All se has to do when a pikmin is latched on to her is run up to olimar and Witch Time. Plus, Olimar doesn't have that amazing of a recovery, which Bayonetta can exploit with Bairs and Dair.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I think the one of the problems with Pikachu is that when someone like Greninja or Fox gets a long combo on you you have trouble making up for the percent deficit, and it's not uncommon to see iStudying or Larry make comebacks from matches that seem already completed. Unfortunately, Pikachu has lower damage output, worse agility, and similar grab reward to these two.

 

[MistressRemilia]

i'm pretty sure at this point, everyone that plays a small character has claimed to have the advantage in the bayonetta matchup, despite absolutely not having an advantage against bayonetta. i've seen G&W players claim it, pikachus claim it, kirby players claim it (lol), now olimar? i'm just waiting on the jiggs players to show up next saying they beat bayonetta 90-10 because she falls out of one combo or something.

For G&W mains, i'd rather see arguments because of the Windbox UpB killing Bayonetta off the top as Bayo attempts to do that to G&W, only to die. Now, i'm no expert on the fact it's true or not, but what i can tell you is that it's definitly helpful, because Witch Twist is SDI-able, there is indeed a possibility to do said SDI when taken off the top & enjoy the reward of killing Bayonetta with the windbox of our UpB:

 

[Amadeus9]

For G&W mains, i'd rather see arguments because of the Windbox UpB killing Bayonetta off the top as Bayo attempts to do that to G&W, only to die. Now, i'm no expert on the fact it's true or not, but what i can tell you is that it's definitly helpful, because Witch Twist is SDI-able, there is indeed a possibility to do said SDI when taken off the top & enjoy the reward of killing Bayonetta with the windbox of our UpB:

How about this

Don't go for roof combos on gnw

Bayonetta's neutral is braindead anyways, with safe on shield kill moves. Just play neutral, wall that little ******* out, bam you win.

 

[momochuu]

For G&W mains, i'd rather see arguments because of the Windbox UpB killing Bayonetta off the top as Bayo attempts to do that to G&W, only to die. Now, i'm no expert on the fact it's true or not, but what i can tell you is that it's definitly helpful, because Witch Twist is SDI-able, there is indeed a possibility to do said SDI when taken off the top & enjoy the reward of killing Bayonetta with the windbox of our UpB:

then they would just not do the roof combos on game and watch and kill him with one of her many other kill moves after racking up damage with her normal combos.

you eat like two or three normal bayo combos then you get baired, and she didn't have to do the roof combo on you once and there was no threat of that windbox.

 

[C0rvus]

Guys, if you think your character beats Bayo, show some gameplay at least. I know the meta just got changed a bit, but get some footage. Empty claims mean nothing for this game. (Look at ESAM, few people take him seriously now when he makes a call about Pikachu's matchups.) Get some footage and we can dissect it, then we all have something to look at and think about and/or scrutinize heavily. Doesn't have to be top level, just an example.

Even if it's you beating your little brother, we can look and go "why did he lose his stock?" "how do these tools interact?" etc.

Better than coming in and saying "My main has a kill throw and can crouch under bullets. Am I top tier now?"

Food for thought, feel free to yell at me or whatever.

 

[sedrf]

So guys how's mewtwo now.
personally I'm excited for rich brown and abadango.

 

[Jamurai]

Failing to see how MK goes even with Cloud and Bayo "at worst". It's only been a week since the big patch so there is (next to) no high-level gameplay to back up this claim. I myself am pessimistic about these matchups. It's fairly clear MK still beats Rosa handily though.

 

[sedrf]

https://smash.gg/tournament/pound-2016/attendees?per_page=50&filter={}&page=1
Also pound's attendee list has been released,but there might be some players who haven't added themselves to smash.gg.

 

[Drarky]

Something to keep in mind when talking about "X player said Y thing": Are you sure they know what they're saying?

Like, I enjoy watching ESAM videos and he can give you some pretty good advice when it comes down to the mindset while playing. But he doesn't lab nearly enough sometimes and he talks about stuff he doesn't know exactly.

In his video of the new patch he talked about how Samus' jab worked on mid% even though that has ALWAYS been the case, and that (Besides some other things) really left me scratching my head in confusion because of all that hype for no reason.

So yeah, be careful about whatever you hear and don't believe it 100% until you can test it yourself and all it's variants. Bias is a thing that affect us all so we better be careful

 

[Amadeus9]

MK Dthrow > rar bair puts cloud into an extremely bad position at low to mid percents. You can chase him and cover almost all of his options with dair/nair/bair. It's seriously one of the easiest edgeguard set ups I've ever seen

 

[MistressRemilia]

then they would just not do the roof combos on game and watch and kill him with one of her many other kill moves after racking up damage with her normal combos.

you eat like two or three normal bayo combos then you get baired, and she didn't have to do the roof combo on you once and there was no threat of that windbox.

Small nitpick in the fact i've just presented the arguments that we usually hear from some G&W mains, hence why i haven't argued much for or against it or saying such big things as Bayo losing to G&W.
Those are not my thoughts, i'm fully aware of bayo's threatening everything outside of her roof combos, it's quite a chore to go through her in neutral as g&w to be honest, i don't think it's horrendously bad for G&W but Bayo wins.