Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheGoodGuava]

Bayo can be a tad frustrating to edgeguard if you mess up. If you eat an afterburner kick during your attempt she gets another one to use and get back on stage. :S
Plus there's the way she can mix things up between choosing to double jump or witch twist. Only time you can reliablely get her is probably when she's only recovering vertically.
Unless you have something to beat out her disjoints.

Though what do the Bayo mains think? Do you EVER get gimped or have your recovery interrupted?

Pretty much everyone with fast disjoints can edgeguard her well. I always go Marth whenever I see a Bayo player at my locals, 90% of my kills vs Bayonetta are edgeguards. Dtilt sets things up super well if they try recovering low and counter is unavoidable when they're trying to recover after dtilt. After that its just a matter of whether or not you can hit a tipper or take their second recovery if you haven't already, her vertical recovery is Doc tier without the jump

 

[BunbUn129]

After getting used to my reborn main, I have realized just how much Meta Knight's edge-guarding ability is so heavily underdeveloped and underutilized. It's funny because MK was clearly never intended to be a character who killed you off the top at ludicrously low damages; he is obviously designed to be a character who racks up damage at low %'s, before forcing you offstage and harassing you until you can no longer return, or die outright. So many elements of his design support this:

-one of the best recoveries, with 5 jumps and 3 safe recovery specials. Unlike all other multi-jumpers sans, Meta Knight's jumping ability is not offset by poor air speed and acceleration. His air speed is 0.99 (35th) at borderline average, while his acceleration is middle-of-the-road at 0.065. As such, unlike say , MK's edge-guarding is not significantly hindered by limited maneuverability.

-fast, disjointed aerial attacks; dair is frame 4, tied with 's for the fastest in start-up, and semi-spikes. Nair is frame 6 with a lingering hitbox. Fair is frame 9 with long range, and most infamously, at frame 7, bair has good range and duration and absurd power.

-aerials that are surprisingly strong for their speed. In order of KO percents offstage on :
*bair(90%)
*strong nair(100%)
*fair(120%)
*dair(140%)

-furthermore, the majority of the buffs Meta Knight received over updates, in one way or another, boosted his edge-guarding game:
*nair (7%/5%->10%/7.5%)
*bair (KBG 180->212 (lol))
*dair range increased
*f tilt (7%->8%, sends at a horizontal angle)
*jab (range increased, making it good for covering ledge options)
*reduced lag on nair and fair makes them safer to use for forcing opponents offstage

-----On a side note, Meta Knight was so drastically nerfed coming over from Brawl, and it always escaped any reason as to why such an overpowering option like the Rufio combo was left intact. This further goes to show it was never a part of his intended character design-----

Characters like have strong edge-guarding games, but this strength is buried under a heap of flaws elsewhere in their design: most notably their lackluster neutral games. Being able to threaten someone offstage, in reality, does not matter when you cannot get them there in the first place, which is why stands out from them: he has the tools and safety in his neutral game, along with the combo potential to rack up damage, both of which in turn make his edge-guarding ability a realistic threat to even those whose recoveries rival his own. Complementing this, Meta Knight has scary KO potential onstage, meaning he is essentially a "pick your poison" character.

As an MK player, I have a frame 8 up smash, a powerful and safe fsmash, an up special that hits on frame 7/8 and can easily be comboed into, and two throws that KO at reasonable percents. That, or I can opt to put opponents into a recovery situation, from where I can edge-guard and gimp with aerials, or hit ledge options with jab, usmash, fsmash, SL and Tornado.

I imagine that MK's new meta will still be terrifying for this reason: rather than doing everything in your power to avoid the ladder, you now have to consider and figure out what option MK will go for to KO. By staying at center stage, you risk dash attack -> SL, or down tilt tech chases. By staying at the ledge, you risk being put into an edge-guard situation.

Tyrant utilized several of these options against Void: the old ladder, usmash, bair, fsmash, Cape and SL (I might be missing one, up throw might be there).

Tl;DR Meta Knight, IMO, is still among the best characters in the KO department, due to varied KOing options that can be mixed up to keep opponents guessing.

 

[Monete]

What did you do? Watch the Beefy Smash Doods video and think "oh haha pikachus recovery isn't ridiculous lol"?

He is the best player in Australia i guess he has some experience.

 

[BunbUn129]

Everyone else is gimpable, Bayonetta in particular is rather easy.

I'm sorry, what? Even offstage gods like have trouble challenging Bayo's recovery. Bayo's recovery has good speed, and even if it was rather slow, her specials have such damn large hitboxes that the slowness doesn't matter in the end.

On , I'm not just trumpeting what Beefy Smash Doods said: the lack of invincibility and small, weak hitboxes on QA, along with how telegraphed Skull Bash is, are all notable issues, and Bayo does not suffer from these, or at least not to the same degree. Pikachu can't effectively defend himself with aerials either, something and even ****ing (plz, fair 2 scary) can do due to their longer range. Should I mention that 's air speed is slower than those five? (0.9118), (0.97), (0.99), (1.1), (1.2), and aerial mobility is indeed an important part of recovery (tbf, Pika's air speed is made up for partially by great air acceleration).

 

[Teshie U]

Edgeguarding Bayonetta is nearly impossible without projectiles or MASSIVE disjoint like Shulk or Corrin.

Its hard to even ledge trump her with Up B poking so far through the stage. She is also very dangerous because so many of her options convert into her busted combo game.

 

[bc1910]

MK's Uthrow is a stock cap. Not a bad one though. Kills around 170, earlier if you can land on a platform. And obviously Bthrow sometimes works. I would agree that MK is still among the best at killing.

But his wins helped us confirm that Greninja has a major advantage against Luigi, that he can beat Fox, that he does fine against both Diddy and Pikachu and that Sheik was the ultimate roadblock for him. That's matchup-specific information based on empirical evidence. Why would you *not* take that into account in a character analysis?

I'm not sure about Pikachu. ESAM clearly had a very shaky grasp on the MU (no-one should be dying to Dair > Uair spike > Dsmash) and we haven't seen much Pika vs Greninja. I think the MU could be "fine" (evenish) but could also be in the Fox camp of "Greninja can win but it's hard" (around -1). Though to be fair, iStudy didn't seem to have an amazing grasp on the MU either since it's arguable he shouldn't have died to either of those thunder spikes. It definitely proves Greninja can win that MU, just to what extent is unclear.

I agree with your other assertions completely.

 

[Nobie]

While we should look to top-level play to substantiate theory to an extent, I think there's a critical flaw in looking too much towards results when determining the strength of a character. That flaw is the tendency for players to do what is most efficient for them, and what will net them the win most easily.

I want you to think about the super powerful kill options that have been nerfed over the course of Smash 4's life. That includes Meta Knight's ladder, Sheik's down throw 50/50, Diddy's hoo hah, Luigi's down throw, etc. What happened when they were in the game? Players used them as their most frequent options to net kills, naturally. Why not? They're super strong and super reliable, you'd be a fool not to use them.

What happened after they got nerfed? Players had to start exploring other options, rethink the way they play their characters, and shore up other aspects of their game to make up for the loss of their best weapons. If not, they just dropped the character outright, and went on to greener pastures.

Now consider this: What if, before these nerfs happened, the players had developed the rest of their game plan as thoroughly as if they had been forced to not use their hoo hah-class weapons? They would THEORETICALLY be even STRONGER than they already were! By not having to use their super powerful option (but still having it in their pocket), the potential for these characters could've been far higher than we could conceive at the time. Except, outside of a few exceptions (notably ZeRo or Mr. R), players chose not to work on their other tools, or not to develop them extensively. Why would they? As players, as those who seek to win, they gravitated towards that which would give them maximum reward with relatively minimal risk and effort (not to say that no effort was expended of course, or that it was all simply a cakewalk).

Of course, the natural influence of time that can't be ignored. Even if a meta develops super quickly, things like tournaments, labbing, etc., and mutual understanding of the game need time to happen and influence players. 5 months ago, players were not playing quite the same as they are now, and even if they thought to develop other parts of their play it might not have looked the same. However, just the fact that a lot of these style changes have been abruptly forced upon the players due to patches tells me that character evolution could've been possible as soon as players realized what they should do.

 

[Asdioh]

Esam has the RAR thunder inputs mastered right? I'd love to see a video of him with a training partner just doing a trial of like 20 attempts, with the partner doing random DI, and see how reliable it is to react, so we can put this argument to rest.

 

[Fatmanonice]

On the topic of Pikachu, how do people feel about how Pikachu basically has a true counterpick stage now in the form of Umbra Clock Tower? If you ask me, a stage where Pikachu can't QAC is a pretty big deal and this may be one of the more character specific stage disadvantages in the game.

 

[Radical Larry]

Blobface You had a really good summary of Ganondorf, but...you are missing the importance of Flame Choke's buff. Ganondorf's new Side B buff gives him an absurd, disjointed grab range now! It's definitely better for tech chasing, and it significantly improves his already-cheap Ganoncide. He can now grab at a range that he shouldn't even be grabbing the opponent in the first place.

Now is the buff really significant? No, but it's not insignificant. You can't really complain about Ganondorf's grab range now, can you?

 

[[BROF]]

On the topic of Pikachu, how do people feel about how Pikachu basically has a true counterpick stage now in the form of Umbra Clock Tower? If you ask me, a stage where Pikachu can't QAC is a pretty big deal and this may be one of the more character specific stage disadvantages in the game.

It means nothing because most regions already threw that stage under the bus. So were not going to see it outside of small sheltered scenes, or other countries outside the US. Canada and Europe might pick it up but its dead in most of the US

 

[adom4]

Blobface You had a really good summary of Ganondorf, but...you are missing the importance of Flame Choke's buff. Ganondorf's new Side B buff gives him an absurd, disjointed grab range now! It's definitely better for tech chasing, and it significantly improves his already-cheap Ganoncide. He can now grab at a range that he shouldn't even be grabbing the opponent in the first place.

Now is the buff really significant? No, but it's not insignificant. You can't really complain about Ganondorf's grab range now, can you?

I didn't feel like the range difference was that big, it's def a buff but a pretty minor one at that.

 

[[BROF]]

However I just remembered that you can also QAC on the omega version. So Pikachu might get to abuse that since most people ban lylat and battlefield against Pikachu. That is, of course, if omegas are legal.

 

[S_B]

After getting used to my reborn main, I have realized just how much Meta Knight's edge-guarding ability is so heavily underdeveloped and underutilized. It's funny because MK was clearly never intended to be a character who killed you off the top at ludicrously low damages; he is obviously designed to be a character who racks up damage at low %'s, before forcing you offstage and harassing you until you can no longer return, or die outright. So many elements of his design support this:

Exactly what I've been saying for this whole thread: MK was supposed to have a bit more difficult of a time getting people OFF the stage but once they're off, THAT'S when he starts to really shine.

Also, to address Pikachu, let's try a thought experiment...

Imagine that NO ONE has any kill confirms. Characters only kill off of READS. How well does Pika do in comparison to other characters then?

I'd say pretty damn well. His U-smash is comparable to Fox's, his F-smash has some awesome disjoint, comes out very quickly and is fairly strong. His aerials are outright amazing, including off the stage back air gimps, and his recovery is one of the safest in the game.

He can and will win with reads, and as the game continues to be balanced, I suspect he'll stand even more shoulder to shoulder with other characters.

Also, as I've said probably too many times before, the edgeguarding game in SSB4 is highly underdeveloped, and Pika has a lot of potential when it comes to edgeguards as well (just not against Sheik and ZSS, who are now slowly falling from grace).

So yeah, I think Pika will overall come out pretty well. The only thing I wish they'd consider nerfing for him is to add a bit more landing lag to his Up+B when it lands on stage. Right now, Pika eats many characters for lunch with QA since he can just keep doing it back to back to back...

 

[Fatmanonice]

It means nothing because most regions already threw that stage under the bus. So were not going to see it outside of small sheltered scenes, or other countries outside the US. Canada and Europe might pick it up but its dead in most of the US

Already? Damn... I wish the West was more open minded about counterpick stages. It's definitely one of the thing I prefer more about watching Japanese tournaments.

Japanese tournaments: "Let's keep our options open."
Western tournaments: "Wait... there's more stages than Smashville and Battlefield?"

 

[wedl!!]

...Japanese tournaments are 90% FD/Battlefield...

 

[[BROF]]

The Japanese scene is all about them omega willy castle and just omegas in general.
To be fair I know people gave it a chance.
It was tried at KTAR and other tourneys.
My region (Florida) tried it for a bit and it was pretty much unanimously turned down.

 

[T4ylor]

I really don't like how I can't avoid triple platform stages with the stagelist we have and I wish we had Umbra legal, too.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Ok, I think people don't understand how Pikachu exactly works (maybe for the lack of representation?) I am a Pikachu main myself so I can tell you about his issues killing, I also play Mario so Ill make some comparisons here, Pikachu can kill extremely early with sweetspot usmash that comes out super fast, you just need a read or to make a punish, Pikachu can kill with a uthrow thunder if the opponent doesnt di, a good way to set this is grabbing them and immediately throwing them so you dont let them di, if they di backwards you can follow the di and do a rar thunder (same thing if they di towards) and if they di backward (backwards pikachu) you can just down throw and thunder without following any di as they will be just above you, Fsmash is safe if well spaced most of the time unless they power shield it, now thats a lot more kill options than Mario with the best of Marip being people mistaken getting near his upsmash chains or a pp usmash, also pikachus damage output is great combined with the many comboes he can make with attacks like utilt uair dthrow dthrow fair dair and even ftilt as a combo starter, Pikachu is a really solid overwhelming character that should get much more attention

 

[Radical Larry]

I didn't feel like the range difference was that big, it's def a buff but a pretty minor one at that.

If Sheik's F-Air nerf was significant to her despite it being a 1 unit positioning from 3.5 > 2.5, then Ganondorf's Flame Choke buff is even more significant since it's a 2 unit positioning altogether on his grab range. Sheik's F-Air made her more defensive when using it, and yet Ganondorf's Flame Choke now gives him a grab that he'd want.

I feel like the range difference is indeed big enough to tell a complete difference. It's not major nor minor, but well in between, if not sub-major at best. It's a noticeable one.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Stages banned for various reasons:
Wuhu Island: That Ness glitch that was patched out. High ceiling means longer to take stocks. Water, walkoffs
KJ 64: We banned it before, so let's keep banning it. Circle camping even though its much smaller than before and you can camp hella hard on Duck Hunt. High ceilings.
Castle Siege: Matches would come to a halt sometimes on stage 2.
Skyloft: Can sometimes die due to transformations. 5 walk offs.
Delfino: Low ceiling, water, 4 walkoffs, and people call it jank for whatever reason. To be fair, there would be 4 low ceiling stages if Halberd, TC, Dreamland, Delfino were legal.
Halberd: See reasoning above.

Sometimes I cry thinking how much stages people could be playing on, but we ban just cuz. It also makes me wish they import or Yoshi Island (Brawl). I know Yoshi Island would be a shoe in and for , just make both sides edge grab. One could dream as counter picking would be even more important as vertical combo killers would suck on Wuhu and KJ.

 

[BunbUn129]

Exactly what I've been saying for this whole thread: MK was supposed to have a bit more difficult of a time getting people OFF the stage but once they're off, THAT'S when he starts to really shine.

It's worth noting that one of the in-game tips mentions the down throw -> dash attack -> fair combo that works at very low percents. The devs made it so MK could rack up damage off of combos, and that's actually what happened--just not as they intended. I'm guessing his intended plan was: "I'm going to punish you and rack up 50% damage off of combos, juggle you for a bit more, and send you offstage to your doom." How it turned out to be : "I'm going to punish you and deal 30% off of combos, then carry you off the top to an early death." The fact that your opponent wasn't expected to survive past 60% threw everything else in his character design right out the window. D-tilt tech chases, dash attack -> Shuttle Loop, fsmash baits, usmash reads, his entire edge-guarding kit--why use any of that when one option invalidates them? It's interesting to see how much you learn and understand about your character after their best tool is weakened.

I feel MK's intended design can be summed up in one move: his down throw. At low to mid percents, it has guaranteed follow-ups regardless of DI, along with others that are DI dependent. But starting at 80%, any follow-up is negated by away-DI. Imagine MK uses his down throw at the ledge. The opponent has two options: DI'ing away to avoid follow-ups seems like it's obvious. However, DI'ing away actually leaves you in a relatively vulnerable position offstage, and the throw's high knockback growth will send you flying pretty far out. On the other hand, while DI'ing against MK or to the left leaves you at a better recovery angle, it leaves you open to follow-ups that would not have been true otherwise.

 

[Jamurai]

Funny thing is, the new Uair makes getting people offstage WAY easier at all %s, alongside the other stuff MK had already. Edgeguarding is going to be even more prominent in MK's general gameplan and matchup strategy.

 

[Radical Larry]

Funny thing is, the new Uair makes getting people offstage WAY easier at all %s, alongside the other stuff MK had already. Edgeguarding is going to be even more prominent in MK's general gameplan and matchup strategy.

Yes, but how effective will it be in the long run? What if the opponent actually DIs in the situations that they're put there and what if the opponent just isn't getting hit by it? What then?

And besides, he has a plethora of other options to setup for edge-guarding, doesn't he?

 

[BunbUn129]

Yes, but how effective will it be in the long run? What if the opponent actually DIs in the situations that they're put there and what if the opponent just isn't getting hit by it? What then?

I don't think you can possibly play the MK MU and not get hit by a uair.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't think you can possibly play the MK MU and not get hit by a uair.

I'm not going to lie, I did get hit by them quite a lot.
But then in any opportunity, I just D-Aired with Link or D-Spec'd with Ganondorf and sent the opponent high in some situations. It was mainly due to delayed reaction or just damage. Now I don't know if I can really do the same, but I need to practice that MU a lot.

 

[Amadeus9]

Since nobody wants to post actual uses for new uair, Im going to

This was impossible with the old angle.

 

[BunbUn129]

Since nobody wants to post actual uses for new uair, Im going to

This was impossible with the old angle.

New Wall of Pain confirmed.

Good thing we managed to barely keep that rusting ladder.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I think the overall stage restrictions are a bigger aspect to character's development than people give it . imagine if characters like Sheik MK RYu Bayo had to kill on KJ 64? That means more neutral play would be needed to end stocks.

 

[Radical Larry]

New Wall of Pain confirmed.

But that's only IF the opponent heads towards the ledge. This may be possible, but in no way should you think that this can feasibly happen to an intelligent player.

 

[Amadeus9]

But that's only IF the opponent heads towards the ledge. This may be possible, but in no way should you think that this can feasibly happen to an intelligent player.

Uh

It's off a ledge trump, you realize?

 

[[BROF]]

But that's only IF the opponent heads towards the ledge. This may be possible, but in no way should you think that this can feasibly happen to an intelligent player.

It's being done off a ledge trump, so the first hit is guaranteed. Whether it is possible to get out with a certain kind of DI is yet to be seen but then it would probably need to be DI Away, which for most characters would just be suicide give the height. Not to mention that if they manage to get back to ledge they wont have invulnerability either.
Very nice find, pretty much a guaranteed death with or without DI against most of the cast without top tier recoveries.

 

[Pancracio17]

So someone asked if you can edgeguard bayonetta las page so im gonna put my input.
Yes but unless you have a disjoint bigger than witch twist she only has 2 vulnerable points, side b: either she trades or just loses when using this attack and when shes jumping: this one is important because unless you steal her jump shes always going to come back. She is really hard to edgeguard and your probably better off waiting at the ledge to trump her or cover her ledge options.
Take this with a grain of salt though im not a high level player by any means.

 

[FullMoon]

Minor nitpick but did iStudying actually go against any Luigi players in Beast VI?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Minor nitpick but did iStudying actually go against any Luigi players in Beast VI?

... yes, his name is Luigi player

 

[Y2Kay]

For the most part Greninja mains weren't over reacting to BEAST VI, I was just acting like a moron and was not thinking befor posting like I should have.

Maybe in another thread, but here the greninja community had an appropriate response, I think it's the wrong example of a community stepping out of line.

 

[L9999]

For Pikachu, there's ESAM and Shimitake off the top of my head. Is there anyone else?

Enki and PikaForLife. From Europe, they have played against Mr. R.

 

[Blobface]

Stages banned for various reasons:
Wuhu Island: That Ness glitch that was patched out. High ceiling means longer to take stocks. Water, walkoffs
KJ 64: We banned it before, so let's keep banning it. Circle camping even though its much smaller than before and you can camp hella hard on Duck Hunt. High ceilings.
Castle Siege: Matches would come to a halt sometimes on stage 2.
Skyloft: Can sometimes die due to transformations. 5 walk offs.
Delfino: Low ceiling, water, 4 walkoffs, and people call it jank for whatever reason. To be fair, there would be 4 low ceiling stages if Halberd, TC, Dreamland, Delfino were legal.
Halberd: See reasoning above.

Sometimes I cry thinking how much stages people could be playing on, but we ban just cuz. It also makes me wish they import or Yoshi Island (Brawl). I know Yoshi Island would be a shoe in and for , just make both sides edge grab. One could dream as counter picking would be even more important as vertical combo killers would suck on Wuhu and KJ.

I think Wuhu and Skyloft suffer much more because parts of the stage have hit boxes when flying around, occasionally randomly causing people to spontaneously survive things they never should have.

 

[Luigi player]

... yes, his name is Luigi player

You know I SD'd 3 or 4 times in the 2 games we had. Istudy is very good he might've beaten me without that (I really don't want to john but SDing while a game is even and then twice at the end of both games (though he had the lead both times) really made it even easier for him) but it's not impossible that I could've won in my eyes. Also Beast was generally not perfectly set up because there was no sound at all on any setup but the stream one (some had gamepads but it was way too loud to notice them even at full volume), how in the world are you supposed to react to anything...
It's not an easy MU for Luigi but "Greninja destroying Luigi" goes a little too far, I don't think that's true.

 

[Jehtt]

New Wall of Pain confirmed.

Good thing we managed to barely keep that rusting ladder.

I noticed Ito wrote this in the description:

it shouldnt lead to death vs best possible di, but it can still do a lot of damage.

I wonder what the best possible DI is... perhaps just standard horizontal vectoring? Either way, this still looks solid since it does good damage (it did 12 in this video) and leaves the opponent in a terrible spot.