Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

Oh hey. Here's all the Sheik stuff:

Sheik:Dsmash kbg155->165
Fair def hitboxZpos 3.5 ->2.5
Fair hitboxZpos3.5 ->2.5
Fthrow°70->72
FthrowKBG65->79
Dthrow°80->77
DthrowKBG75-> 90

SUPER interested in the Fair Z-axis placements. Does this mean people can just straight up outrange Sheik Fair now?

 

[DblCrest]

Id rather lose to a character in M2's body than the same character in Sonics' body. M2 also is bigger, doesn't say 'YOURE TOO SLOW' in the most punchable voice ever, have music that his fans like way too much, is lighter, doesn't have spindash BS for confirms that do way too much (he has confirms, but off of non mobile priority balls), and isn't a blue ball of ****.

Music is the only thing some of the crazy fans can agree on is good throughout most of the games. So don't be like that Megamang -3-

Anyway as exciting as the new patches are. Shouldn't dreams and nightmares concerning them be in another thread(Along with complaints haha) or does it count towards the competitive discussion? :o

 

[Y2Kay]

This new Mewtwo is literally pre-patch Sonic

Runs around fast with kill throws and a stupid powerful up-smash

People will start complaining soon lol.

Meanwhile on the mew2 boards

we did it guys! mission complete! we got that weight buff!

 

[UberMadman]

I have to say, I may be bad, but I'm struggling a bit to get that Duck Hunt kill I posted earlier. The FAF doesn't feel like there's nearly enough time to act quick enough. If it's incorrect somehow, I'm sorry to be the false hype man. That said, it was confirmed that Duck Hunt got SOME kind of change this patch.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If Shuriken outranges Needles now, it means Elthunder outranges Needles now. So Robin has that and Thoron going at least.

Levin Fair can also contest Sheik's aerials, Wind Jab still kills, if the rumored 50/50 nerf is substantial Robin gets that much more rage to slam Sheik with a Levin hit, etc.

Who knows, if Robin can avoid being overwhelmed, this MU could legit be a true head-to-head fight.


Really curious on how the Zamus nerfs affect the MU though.

 

[Y2Kay]

This love triangle between me, greninja, and mewtwo just got A LOT more complicated..............

I can't tell who is better anymore.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh hey. Here's all the Sheik stuff:

Sheik:Dsmash kbg155->165
Fair def hitboxZpos 3.5 ->2.5
Fair hitboxZpos3.5 ->2.5
Fthrow°70->72
FthrowKBG65->79
Dthrow°80->77
DthrowKBG75-> 90

SUPER interested in the Fair Z-axis placements. Does this mean people can just straight up outrange Sheik Fair now?

Whoa if this is real this is pretty huge.

I really need to know how that affects the 50/50

 

[C0rvus]

So apparently Rosalina can't Grav Pull PK Thunder anymore? Dabuz says so on Twitter, about to test now. Kind of a nerf to Rosa in a way.

Edit: Nah forget it. My test was faulty and Dabuz is wrong. Would be super weird.

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk vs Sheik just got a whole lot easier with the Fair and Needle changes.

 

[UberMadman]

So apparently Rosalina can't Grav Pull PK Thunder anymore? Dabuz says so on Twitter, about to test now. Kind of a nerf to Rosa in a way.

Edit: Yeah I just tested it, you can't steal PK Thunder. Gonna test with Pocket too now that I think about it.

WAIT WHAT

BUT THE GAME TELLS YOU TO DO THIS IN A HINT

EDIT: I just stole it, not sure what you're talking about.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

So apparently Rosalina can't Grav Pull PK Thunder anymore? Dabuz says so on Twitter, about to test now. Kind of a nerf to Rosa in a way.

Edit: Yeah I just tested it, you can't steal PK Thunder. Gonna test with Pocket too now that I think about it.

That seems...odd. Is it only during it's usual temporary invincibility or is it completely unable to snatch it anymore?

 

[Y2Kay]

Sakurai is trying to remove gatekeepers from the game

MK, ZSS, and Sheik all used to counter Mewtwo.......not anymore

bend over for your new top tier mewtwo

 

[ARGHETH]

EDIT: nvm.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

So apparently Rosalina can't Grav Pull PK Thunder anymore? Dabuz says so on Twitter, about to test now. Kind of a nerf to Rosa in a way.

Edit: Yeah I just tested it, you can't steal PK Thunder. Gonna test with Pocket too now that I think about it.

Edit edit: RIP Pocket doesn't seem to work either. Testing against Lucas too, just to be sure.

Edit edit edit: Okay you CAN take Lucas's still. What is this nonsense?

You can still steal Ness's PK Thunder. Just tested. Maybe the absorbtion range was affected somehow?

EDIT: Either that, or Dabuz is just trolling. *shrugs*

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

If Shuriken outranges Needles now, it means Elthunder outranges Needles now. So Robin has that and Thoron going at least.

Levin Fair can also contest Sheik's aerials, Wind Jab still kills, if the rumored 50/50 nerf is substantial Robin gets that much more rage to slam Sheik with a Levin hit, etc.

Who knows, if Robin can avoid being overwhelmed, this MU could legit be a true head-to-head fight.


Really curious on how the Zamus nerfs affect the MU though.

No need, Sheik has been overnerfed already. I doubt if people will play her anymore; less range on fair, weaker needles, and no more 50/50s and worse forward throw. I guess people like killing off characters; only question is, will MK be viable enough at top level, Abadango apparently dropped him for Rosa already. Although I do hope Sheik can maintain, it's looking pretty grim, I mean no kill reliable kill set up off of grab in a game with rage and weakened options on top of that >.>. I am now a Roaalina main. I sure do hope I am wrong about Sheik. Shaya thoughts on Sheik ATM?

 

[C0rvus]

That's what I get for testing stuff/believing in tweets. Ignore me foreverrrrrrrr

But these Sheik nerfs seem significant. She still has needles and fair, but I don't think it will be enough to keep her above water from the silly reward of Bayonetta and incredible neutral and kill power of Cloud. ZSS is also hit, but I'll hold my tongue until I knwo more. It's a good day to be a Rosalina player, though. Interesting patch so far.

Shoutouts to Samus for getting some love! You guys deserve it and then some.

 

[UberMadman]

I can confirm that they did NOT remove the Bowser Jr. kartless wall tech glitch this patch. Bummer.

 

[sedrf]

I think Mr r and void will keep the sheik dream alive

 

[Y2Kay]

No need, Sheik has been overnerfed already. I doubt if people will play her anymore; less range on fair, weaker needles, and no more 50/50s and worse forward throw. I guess people like killing off characters; only question is, will MK be viable enough at top level, Abadango apparently dropped him for Rosa already. Although I do hope Sheik can maintain, it's looking pretty grim, I mean no kill reliable kill set up off of grab in a game with rage and weakened options on top of that >.>. I am now a Roaalina main. I sure do hope I am wrong about Sheik. Shaya thoughts on Sheik ATM?

TBH a drop in sheik usage is litterally all greninja needs to become truly viable, greninja's future looks bright too

 

[Solfiner]

Can't wait to see what Void is gonna do with patched Sheik. He was never reliant on the 50-50 or needle camping anyways.

 

[DanGR]

I tested a variety of vertical and horizontal ranges for Rosa down-b and found no changes. That doesn't eliminate the possibility Ness' upb got changed somehow, though.

 

[FullMoon]

By the way here I am with my routine of confirming that Greninja's hitstun cancel is still in.

 

[A10theHero]

In spite of these nerfs, there still appears to be some hope for Sheik mains:

@AllyOrNotAlly I already thought of new sheik kill confirms, thanks for the info

— Void (@gsmVoiD) March 16, 2016

 

[Solfiner]

Might as well confirm that MALLC's are still in. Yeah, never getting removed.

Also, seemingly no Shulk buffs. Ah well, there's always hope for the Ike treatment in the future since patches are still around.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The nerfs to Sheik, ZSS, and Metaknight could be huge for obvious reasons. ZSS alone was a giant gatekeeper for nearly all the heavyweights in the game so characters like Ike and DK could develop to become stand alone viable if the impact is as great as people are currently implying they will be.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Friendly reminder that a drop in Sheik usage is only good news for Cloud =).

This patch is very....interesting.

 

[Reapers]

I wonder how dominant Cloud will be. Sure, he got nerfed, but so did nearly everyone around him (to what extent, I'm not sure). Nerf to Finishing Touch sucks but Limit Cross Slash is still there untouched and will the 1% damage reduction to his up air really affect him that much? I'm both dreading and looking forward as to what will happen with him.
That reminds me, I'm guessing Bayonetta is left untouched?

 

[C0rvus]

How can Rosalina be the best when Cloud still sh*tstomps her?

Also Corrin nerfs got me some kind of salty. If what I'm seeing is true (ground speed nerfs), I'm legit mad. Character wasn't top tier, didn't even break out at a major yet. I was just getting into playing him too.

P.S. Sheik is still top tier
And VoiD is the best kind of top tier main. What a champ.

 

[Trifroze]

So apparently these are all the ZSS nerfs if I'm reading the notes right:

Uair damage: 8% to 6.5%
Uair KBG: 110 to 125

Nair damage: 10% to 8%
Nair KBG(?): 80 to 96
Nair horizontal range(?): 6.0 to 5.7

Active frames on all grabs reduced by 4 frames at the tip

Dthrow second hit damage: 5% to 3%
Dthrow BKB: 100 to 90
Dthrow KBG: 25 to 60 (basically Luigi'd)

Bthrow second hit damage: 4% to 6%
Bthrow BKB: 70 to 72
Bthrow KBG: 60 to 45

Side b little hits: 0.8% to 1.2%
Side b final hit: 6% to 7.5%

Literal Diddy treatment. Uair got objectively worse, dthrow got objectively worse, nair got weaker but better at comboing, all grabs got worse, bthrow seems pretty irrelevant and side b might have a use now.

 

[Pancracio17]

Cloud u air is now unsafe on shield apparently and yes bayo got nerfed on numerous moves by 1%

 

[predator_21476]

How can Rosalina be the best when Cloud still sh*tstomps her?

Also Corrin nerfs got me some kind of salty. If what I'm seeing is true (ground speed nerfs), I'm legit mad. Character wasn't top tier, didn't even break out at a major yet. I was just getting into playing him too.

P.S. Sheik is still top tier
And VoiD is the best kind of top tier main. What a champ.

The ground speed nerfs are true at least for the run speed anyways. They just aren't that big. Ike runs slightly faster now. Who did she have a similar walk speed to?

 

[Strong-Arm]

Literally me right now with these Zard buffs

 

[Yonder]

Rosa and Mario were left untouched too, things are looking good for them. M2's new dash speed might open up more combos and become even deadlier.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Cloud got kbg nerfs to LB Cross Slash and dsmash.

Bayo got dair and up smash nerfs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Friendly reminder that a drop in Sheik usage is only good news for Cloud =).

This patch is very....interesting.

Cloud's changes are minimal for Singles.
Sure, Uair is not +1 on shield anymore, Limit takes a bit longer and LCS got a tiny KBG reduction, but the overall character seems about as strong.
With two of the queens getting noticeably worse and him not having trouble against the third, he now might be a force to be reckoned with (though the newest queen is kind of a problem for him and everyone else).

 

[Aife]

The ground speed nerfs are true. They just aren't that big. Ike runs slightly faster now. Who did she have a similar walk speed to?

So Corrin got speed nerfs huh?
I don't really know how that makes sense but, its irrelevant i guess, its manageable...Still feel weird about it though, it was the most awkward thing about her while first picking her up. Gonna be even more jarring going from DP to her.

Samus's new morph ball thing is god damn amazing though. Not even talking about possibilities here, I just wanna use it...Damn. sdjfjksdfkjs

Ifeelsoawkwardinthisthread,butIdecidedtocommentanyway

 

[Strong-Arm]

Personally I think Cloud got hit pretty hard by the Limit Break nerf. Also Up Air is weaker and doesnt kill as early as it used to. Cloud is still good but he did get slapped from this patch

 

[FSLink]

Apparently it wasn't clear to some of you that Dabuz was trolling:
https://twitter.com/_DabuzSensei/status/709961918648348673

Also Duck Hunt had a "kill confirm" with dthrow to uair at high percents. It's existed for awhile. It doesn't work with any sort of DI. Someone "discovered" it last patch too lol

But it appears he did receive changes. Someone said he got his smash attacks kill power buffed slightly. If they fixed the hitboxes on fsmash I'll take it as good enough.

 

[HFlash]

Even with the 1% uair nerf on Cloud. The frame data and disjoint still makes his uair one of the best ones in the game if the not the best. The move was (and still kinda is) busted and merits the nerf. The Shiek nerfs are the biggest buff Cloud could ask for. Aside from her, I don't think Cloud has any -1 MUs now.

 

[FullMoon]

So about MK