Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

I've learned a few things due to and

• you don't have to have no weaknesses to be broken
• you don't have to be the best character to be broken
• charactrs being busted just makes it more satisfying when you beat them with your non-busted character anyway

Meanwhile, in Melee and Brawl... and come to mind. could count too. Anyway, what was your point again? Pretty much each or any game has busted options. Some are just more busted like 64 Fox and Melee and Brawl Falco Blaster, Melee Falco and Fox's Reflectors, and Peach's Down Smash.

 

[DblCrest]

Ffamran
That Down smash is literally spin2win in Pm. I hate it so much XD

Though regarding Dabuz match up chart I find it surprising how far Cloud and Shulk are so far apart.
Does Limit break and things like Cross slash really make things that hard for Rosa?

 

[Jalil]

Any reason as to why? He thinks that most of the other swordsman (except for Dark Pit, Cloud, and MK) lose the MU, and I don't see what makes Shulk special.

Shulk still does shulk stuff in the rosa mu. He doesn't have to play around Luma and throw out attacks he normally wouldn't just for the sake of killing it. Both Rosa & Luma get dealt with in his natural gameplan. She does a good of exploiting some of his weaknesses (recovery+being juggled) but he has the edge in neutral. Shulk outranges almost everything rosa has and doesn't have to worry about jabs. You can just throw out fair, nair or back air since they can hit luma while covering you well and hitting rosa (or her shield) if she's close enough. His combos/strings also aren't really affected by luma either cuz given shulks range, most of the time he'll be hitting both. Rosa is floaty so it's pretty easy to follow her movement in the air with speed or jump. What I usually try to do is stay out of her range and go for a MALLC aerial so that way if she airdodges you can frame trap her, and if she jumps you can follow her movement immediately. Not really committing but still covering options.
I also like to use jump for edguarding. What I do is wait for her to try to snap the ledge then nair while jumping onto the stage. Can 2 frame and if she recovers high you have enough time to catch up to her. At higher percents, edgeguarding with smash nair works wonders too. IMO what keeps him from winning solidly is his disadvantage and recovery but even then, shulks recovery is a lot better than clouds and cloud still beats her.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I've learned a few things due to and

• you don't have to have no weaknesses to be broken
• you don't have to be the best character to be broken
• charactrs being busted just makes it more satisfying when you beat them with your non-busted character anyway

Really? Rosalina taught me all that over a year ago when I realized all the bull**** she has.

Only cloud and bayo made you realize that? lol

 

[Y2Kay]

Really? Rosalina taught me all that over a year ago when I realized all the bull**** she has.

Only cloud and bayo made you realize that? lol

check the date I joined the site

I swear yall forget I'm still pretty fresh to all of this.

 

[Dabuz]

I think Falcon has an even or advantages MU with cloud and I've talked with M2K who mirrored this sentiment but it's been about a month or two since then so I don't if he's changed his opinion since then.

Dabuz 's MU chart
I find it interesting he puts WFT as free but John#s 2-0 xaltis at SF2 and I've seen Waveguider beat Jaice pretty convincingly, but I think he plays John pretty regularly no? Maybe he knows the match up better than other Rosas, so I'll probably have to ask him myself.

I'm the only Rosa who knows the matchup lol, simple as that, Wii Fit's gameplan is projectiles, ledge camping, and trying to wade through walls to get hits in, Rosa counters all that easily.

Zudenka's from Swizerland so he either moved or you're confusing something.



Even though he explicitly calls it "fair and even" I'm not sure he actually thinks of it as an even matchup. Let's tag Dabuz to see if he wants to clarify, I personally thinks Rosalina wins. And yes, most Fox players consider it to be his most difficult matchup but Fox is also ... kinda good so a matchup can simultaneously be close to even and one of his hardest.

I'll be honest that I'm bad vs. Fox, but Falln likes always loses to Larry and I think if that matchup was actually that bad for Fox than Larry would lose to him at least here and there, and I never really see results indicating fox loses. Sure his recovery gets bodied, but he can 2 frame Rosa's for free, his speed makes him hard to catch and juggle sometimes, and his pressure can be tough to handle once it gets going.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Fox Rosa is even because a top player always wins sets against a non-top player.. hmmm.

also Larry definitely drops games to falln anyway. a bunch of them, if i remember correctly.

 

[juddy96]

Fox Rosa is even because a top player always wins sets against a non-top player.. hmmm.

also Larry definitely drops games to falln anyway. a bunch of them, if i remember correctly.

TIL: #5 on the PR in one of the most stacked regions in the world is not a top player

Still, falln vs Xzax would probably be a more fair comparison, but Xzax doesn't attend much so I don't know their record.

 

[Ultinarok]

The only reason I mentioned Sheik nerfs is that she seems to be overly centralizing to the meta. I think Cloud and Bayo are just harder matchups because they're unfamiliar, but they have concrete weaknesses that can be exploited easier than any weakness Sheik might have...if she has any, besides how many hits she needs to land to get any mileage.

As far as the Rosa matchup, yeah its doable. Shulk's range is a huge advantage against Luma shenanigans, and Rosa's huge size makes her incredibly prone to Air Slash and up air kills, especially in Jump mode. And Shulk can pick the Luma chemistry apart with Speed and Buster. He just needs to play aggressively and avoid whiffing as much as possible, just like he has to do in every matchup. I play friendlies with a friend who's a Rosa main and I usually three or four stock her (out of five) with Shulk, although she's only decent, not even close to top level.

 

[ArikadoSD]

TIL: #5 on the PR in one of the most stacked regions in the world is not a top player

Still, falln vs Xzax would probably be a more fair comparison, but Xzax doesn't attend much so I don't know their record.

TIL: being #5 on a stacked PR is comparable to getting top 8 at p much every national you go to, which is almost all of them

??

 

[Dabuz]

Except Larry very rarely places in the top 8 of nationals...

 

[ARGHETH]

He got 4th at CEO, 7th at Genesis 3, and 9th at EVO and Genesis 3. So 50/50, I guess.
He didn't attend MLG, SSC, or TBH5.

 

[Luco]

Interesting to see that Dabuz thinks Ness-Rosalina isn't 100% garbage.

He never has, in fact until recently he was a pretty big advocate for it being a pretty doable MU (it's weird to be talking for someone who's actively posting right now, I should prolly let him explain his thoughts really), but I think it's been a year and a half and not a scrap of top level MU exp to the contrary finally pushed things over the edge. Lawl.

Alsoooooooo Das Koopa's chart brought up an interesting character to the table: DK - he seems to be doing about as well as TL, Luigi and that crew, so does he deserve a higher position than he is in now? It makes sense to me for a character that kills consistently at like 70%, is a heavy-weight with abnormally decent mobility and still has one of the few Brawl-esque bairs left in smash 4 along with other superb-level ranged moves.

 

[C0rvus]

DK is the best superheavy, Bowser's nerfs cement this fact. He's pretty solid, has a palpable advantage over Mario, arguably beats Ness, Falcon, does well against Toon Link, Lucario, the Pits, etc. But he gets worked by a few top tiers like ZSS and Meta Knight. I'm not convinced he does as poorly against Rosalina as Dabuz's chart lets on. He's a solid mid tier, maybe lower end of upper mid, likely around #30 overall.
DKWill, Vex, and others keep bringing in decent to good results with the character. Hard to say he's not relevant, but I don't consider him on the level of Toon Link, but more around Luigi's level sounds about right.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Fox Rosa is even because a top player always wins sets against a non-top player.. hmmm.

also Larry definitely drops games to falln anyway. a bunch of them, if i remember correctly.

Falln has never taken a game off Larry until last 2GG lol (he took 2)

 

[thehard]

Small thing before I go to bed: Pugwest just mentioned in Nairo's stream chat that he believes Lucina does better than Marth in some high tier matchups. Didn't specify which though

 

[Trifroze]

I would expect Zero Suit to do well against Cloud. Why worry about Limit when Dthrow is basically a permanent Finishing Touch anyway. Just don't keep hopping around when he Nairs.

You should know that ZSS' dthrow doesn't really work that way. The thing is that in several matchups it's only rewarding if ZSS is outplaying her opponent, i.e. if she misses more than half of her grabs, it's going to be disadvantageous for her on the long run provided the opponent punishes her appropriately. If they don't, chances are ZSS is outplaying them considering they're failing to (hard) punish a 70 frame grab.

I'm not really sure how the matchup plays out to be honest, but however it does play out the result is not due to dthrow. Cloud had to be one of the characters who pops out of boost kick extremely easily (as does Bayonetta apparently), and it doesn't help that he has a uair that's guaranteed to kill ZSS as a punish if near the ceiling, and limit or his smashes on the ground. It's pretty hard to juggle Cloud against his dair as well, you basically have to read it and then space a bair next to him without hitting his sword (usmash is nice in this MU however), and ZSS doesn't have lingering hitboxes to easily gimp Cloud with either although flip kick is nice at times when you manage to force Cloud to recover into it. ZSS' neutral pretty much revolves around hopping around and you can't know when Cloud will or will not throw out his nair, but at least ZSS has zair to stop him in the air in neutral and nair to stop him on the ground, and she avoids Cloud's juggles and edgeguarding pretty easily. Right now I'd just call it even based on all I've seen and experienced.

the matchup probably all comes down to whether or not ZSS dies to limit at 50-70% like any other matchup Cloud has

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'll be honest that I'm bad vs. Fox, but Falln likes always loses to Larry and I think if that matchup was actually that bad for Fox than Larry would lose to him at least here and there, and I never really see results indicating fox loses. Sure his recovery gets bodied, but he can 2 frame Rosa's for free, his speed makes him hard to catch and juggle sometimes, and his pressure can be tough to handle once it gets going.

Shogun, an experienced tournament player from Japan got double eliminated by a relatively new Rosalina player named Atelier a few weeks ago [match-count was 4-1].
Nietono, when he 'mained' Fox would lose to Yuzu a Rosalina player who had [and still has] generally pretty unremarkable results.
You're, what? 3-0 against Larry? That's pretty amazing for somebody who's supposedly 'bad' vs Fox. Especially when you compare it to people like ESAM or Mr r who have a pretty great deal of Fox exp and are still 0-2 against him.

The matchup is not even. It's not even the recovery that's a problem as much as jab shenanigans and the mere existence of Luma that makes it so hard for Fox to navigate in this matchup. It's not one-sided by any means but it's definitely not even.

Except Larry very rarely places in the top 8 of nationals...

He placed top 12 in all of the super-nationals he attended, two of them top 8. At CEO he got doubled eliminated by a certain tristate Rosalina player [match-count: 5-0]. The only non-top 8 placing he had was at Evo where he also got eliminated by a certain tristate Rosalina player.

So Larry generally does place in top 8 of nationals ... exept when he has to play against ... you.

 

[UberMadman]

DK is the best superheavy, Bowser's nerfs cement this fact.

You're not wrong about DK > Bowser, but people don't seem to realize that Bowser's nerfs last patch were overally pretty minor. The knockback growth increase on his Up-Throw still leaves a 20% window or so where the kill confirm works, and in fact makes the window occur slightly earlier than before. Meanwhile Bowser got a pretty major grab-box buff to his Side-B in 1.1.4, making the move a lot less likely to whiff and therefore a lot more threatening. He should be approximately the same viability he was in 1.1.3, but shifted to accomodate for his MUs with Bayo and Corrin.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So Larry Lurr also posted his matchup chart yesterday, which I don't think anyone mentioned:

So he thinks that Kirby beats Fox. Not even. Beats. I'm pretty sure Smash God said this too (It was another notable Kirby that said this). From what I've seen, everyone here, and anyone else on smashboards (Including me) think the matchup is even. But the pro players say Kirby beats Fox. Which I find interesting.

 

[HoSmash4]

Small thing before I go to bed: Pugwest just mentioned in Nairo's stream chat that he believes Lucina does better than Marth in some high tier matchups. Didn't specify which though

If it wasnt for needles, Marth would have a really really good matchup vs Sheik.

Whilst Sheik might be Fox's worst matchup, its not that bad due to the nature of how fox works. Larry lurr has several wins over Mr.R, Void. It's very momentum based but the main difference is fox being edgeguardable and sheik not.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's not a well explored matchup so there's still a good deal of leeway between "it's even" and "x wins by y amount". Larry might base it on his loss against MikeKirby, most other people just theorize it. I don't really agree with some of the chart in general but it's just an opinion.

 

[Greward]

You're not wrong about DK > Bowser, but people don't seem to realize that Bowser's nerfs last patch were overally pretty minor. The knockback growth increase on his Up-Throw still leaves a 20% window or so where the kill confirm works, and in fact makes the window occur slightly earlier than before. Meanwhile Bowser got a pretty major grab-box buff to his Side-B in 1.1.4, making the move a lot less likely to whiff and therefore a lot more threatening. He should be approximately the same viability he was in 1.1.3, but shifted to accomodate for his MUs with Bayo and Corrin.

Uthrow uair is very specific now. Prepatch bowser killed like 3 out of 4 stocks with the combo, now it's more like 1 out of 4 at best.
The 20% window is actually smaller because rage is a thing and well, bowser hits usually do a lot of damage so it's usually a specific percent that if you hit him with anything else it's gone.

I'm not sure which character is better, they seem pretty close in power level atm although results definitely go for donkey kong. Prepatch bowser was better imo.

 

[Jamurai]

Not sure about Fox beating Doc.

• Mario's frame data alongside godlike OOS and SH games to tango with Fox in CQC
• Fox lacks a good offstage game to pressure Doc's recovery, whereas Doc has good tools to combat Fox's
• (Of course) the extremely good kill confirm Doc has in this matchup in Dthrow > Fair

idk about Larry's Doc experience but I'd be hesitant to call it better than even.

 

[Vipermoon]

Small thing before I go to bed: Pugwest just mentioned in Nairo's stream chat that he believes Lucina does better than Marth in some high tier matchups. Didn't specify which though

Meh. That holds as much weight as one of you saying that here

 

[Smog Frog]

eh. i don't completely disbelieve that. spacing for tippers can be very difficult vs characters with high overall mobility() and that might make balanced hitboxes more appealing, especially after the recent buffs that make it so does she does more than the average of tipper/middle blade hits.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

To me, it always seemed like part of the inherent design of swordies in this franchise was that they traded awesome range and killing power for a tricky neutral and punishable, somewhat laggy attacks compared to brawlers. Cloud seems to defy that trade off because he maintains his awesome range, but also has a surprisingly braindead neutral and frame data rivaling or surpassing close combat brawlers.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

To me, it always seemed like part of the inherent design of swordies in this franchise was that they traded awesome range and killing power for a tricky neutral and punishable, somewhat laggy attacks compared to brawlers. Cloud seems to defy that trade off because he maintains his awesome range, but also has a surprisingly braindead neutral and frame data rivaling or surpassing close combat brawlers.

swordies generally are fundamental-based characters and have low execution barriers (which is good for long-time competitive players). Cloud ain't brain dead tho.

 

[|RK|]

So Larry Lurr also posted his matchup chart yesterday, which I don't think anyone mentioned:

So he thinks that Kirby beats Fox. Not even. Beats. I'm pretty sure Smash God said this too (It was another notable Kirby that said this). From what I've seen, everyone here, and anyone else on smashboards (Including me) think the matchup is even. But the pro players say Kirby beats Fox. Which I find interesting.

Kirby players tend to overrate or underrate Kirby around here lol.

But again - Larry Lurr doesn't play MikeKirby with Fox, lol. That says something, clearly.

 

[Dabuz]

Shogun, an experienced tournament player from Japan got double eliminated by a relatively new Rosalina player named Atelier a few weeks ago [match-count was 4-1].
Nietono, when he 'mained' Fox would lose to Yuzu a Rosalina player who had [and still has] generally pretty unremarkable results.
You're, what? 3-0 against Larry? That's pretty amazing for somebody who's supposedly 'bad' vs Fox. Especially when you compare it to people like ESAM or Mr r who have a pretty great deal of Fox exp and are still 0-2 against him.

The matchup is not even. It's not even the recovery that's a problem as much as jab shenanigans and the mere existence of Luma that makes it so hard for Fox to navigate in this matchup. It's not one-sided by any means but it's definitely not even.



He placed top 12 in all of the super-nationals he attended, two of them top 8. At CEO he got doubled eliminated by a certain tristate Rosalina player [match-count: 5-0]. The only non-top 8 placing he had was at Evo where he also got eliminated by a certain tristate Rosalina player.

So Larry generally does place in top 8 of nationals ... exept when he has to play against ... you.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It definitely doesn't feel that way when I play it or see it played, and I certainly find Mario or Sonic much easier than Fox so I couldn't find myself putting him (or Ryu/ Diddy for that reason) in the same tier. Personal bias > Results

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[verbatim]

I'm the only Rosa who knows the matchup lol, simple as that, Wii Fit's gameplan is projectiles, ledge camping, and trying to wade through walls to get hits in, Rosa counters all that easily.

While you're talking about winning Rosa matches, I'd like to ask a few questions about your reasoning behind Pacman's placement, specifically since I feel that the Pacman meta has developed significantly in the Rosa matchup since APEX and since Abadango dropped the character.

I recall you going to a ho3k tournament a while back, have you ever had the opportunity to fight Sinji? The general consensus we've come to as a community is that Pacman needs to play more aggressively against Rosa than he does in other matchups, and that as a very defensive and reactive Pacman Abadango mental blocked against you REALLY hard at APEX.

Main reasons behind the belief that playing more offensively is a better strategy in this matchup primarily comes down to

• no real stage control gained or lost if Rosa uses GP to block a dropped hydrant.
• dropped hydrant beating uair.
• Gravity Pull's item limit (get enough things in the mix and you can get a free Key in hand.
• Projectile camping Rosa doesn't work.

matchup vod for thought.

 

[NairWizard]

Dabuz

Both you and Larry have listed Pikachu as a losing matchup for your character. I played this character for months in tournament until I was blue in the face, and I just can't see him as having positive matchups against your characters. May I ask what you think is going on? It can't be ESAM bias any more since ESAM doesn't place as well as he used to. What Pikachus are you playing that give you the impression of a loss? Or is it just based on theory?

also, wait, why is there a @DabuzsPikachu account....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] I certainly find Mario or Sonic much easier than Fox

That's fair.

I think the cause of disagreement is that there's no category between "even" and "shouldn't lose" on your matchup spread because that's where I think Fox should be placed. Saying that Rosalina "shouldn't lose" to Fox is kind of a stretch but you probably won't find anybody else who thinks it's even.

 

[Solfiner]

So Larry Lurr also posted his matchup chart yesterday, which I don't think anyone mentioned:

So he thinks that Kirby beats Fox. Not even. Beats. I'm pretty sure Smash God said this too (It was another notable Kirby that said this). From what I've seen, everyone here, and anyone else on smashboards (Including me) think the matchup is even. But the pro players say Kirby beats Fox. Which I find interesting.

Advantage over Shulk, not significant advantage. That's really interesting actually, I wonder what his experience has been.

 

[C0rvus]

iirc Nicko plays Shulk, and is currently PRed in SoCal. Though he also plays Cloud now. They have likely played more than once before.

 

[LancerStaff]

Don't the Pits have decent matchups with Cloud? The only result I can think of is Tweek vs Nairo, which is admittedly outdated and not fully representative of Cloud's meta, but based on that set it looked like Dark Pit had answers to Cloud's neutral while also being able to pressure off stage.

It certainly doesn't seem that bad. The Pits have enough disjoints to compete with Cloud's, especially in a ground battle. Their mobility is good enough to where Cloud isn't terribly hard to catch. Offstage is a nightmare for Cloud, especially since Pit can snipe the heck out of Cloud's recovery. Even the Limit Break version with a little luck. Pit vs. Cloud may be in Pit's favor, not that I have any results to back it up.

Earth used Corrin at his last tournament (Sumabato 7, where he drowned in pools). I'm not sure if it's a permanent thing, but he was never exclusively Pit anyways. This could be one of those things that ultimately winds up being noise.

Did the same with Cloud briefly, too.

 

[J-Lit]

It certainly doesn't seem that bad. The Pits have enough disjoints to compete with Cloud's, especially in a ground battle. Their mobility is good enough to where Cloud isn't terribly hard to catch. Offstage is a nightmare for Cloud, especially since Pit can snipe the heck out of Cloud's recovery. Even the Limit Break version with a little luck. Pit vs. Cloud may be in Pit's favor, not that I have any results to back it up.

Komorikiri lost to paseriman, a pretty good pit from japan, but I believe it was one of his first tournaments using cloud. Paseriman got most of his kills from deep edgeguards.

 

[LancerStaff]

Komorikiri lost to paseriman, a pretty good pit from japan, but I believe it was one of his first tournaments using cloud. Paseriman got most of his kills from deep edgeguards.

Oh yeah, I remember now. A bit more meaningful a result but probably still too early to really call it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

A lot of the Cloud vs. Pit we saw was so incredibly early on in the meta before we even knew wtf optimal Cloud recovery looked like. I'd like to see it now honestly but I don't think Cloud roflstomps Pit for what it's worth. I just think he wins neutral in the matchup because of how Cloud's neutral is, which very much offsets a lot of the difficulties he could potentially have here. Can't call a ratio but I think it's a doable MU for Pit and probably far from his worst, but he has to watch out for Cloud's BS because he has a whole lot more of it and it tends to kill really early (Limit side-B mostly) M2K and Cloud meta in general has gotten way more comfy offstage than they used to be so there's been noticeable shifts, yeah.

Tweek vs. Nairo would've been more decisive if Tweek had actually mained Cloud at that point. I'd like to see it now but since Pit is so uncommon the most we can do is like, theorycraft until a Pit player fights a Cloud player at high level lol. IMO the worst part about Pit vs. Cloud is that it's a fairly fundamentally honest char vs. a char with really strong fundamental tools but also super powerful nonsense like Limit as a mechanic and mobility + disjoint.

 

[Goesasu]

Advantage over Shulk, not significant advantage. That's really interesting actually, I wonder what his experience has been.

As a shulk main IMO fox is shulk worst matchup -2 followed by sheik also a -2.