Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Xaltis]

So when is the new list coming out? Still think it was a poor decision making this right before Corrin and Bayonetta's release. But I'm sure that's been said plenty of times.

 

[L9999]

It was being made since December. I agree the timing was terrible, but that is another debate.

 

[Jamurai]

The timing was not that bad with regards to Corrin and Bayo, as they shouldn't really be on an official list for at least a month or two after release anyway. Buffs/nerfs are another story though.

 

[Xaltis]

There still needs to be a new list, the timing was bad, people knew 2 more characters were coming out this month, even if they didn't know the exact day of the month, they still should have waited for this list.

 

[Jamurai]

Say the characters came out at the end of February. I'd give two months of playtime with these characters at least before we have an idea of their viability prospects comparative to the rest of the cast. So you say it should have been sat on for two to three months at least? Why not just post this one and then post another one a few months later (which is what will probably happen)? There isn't a problem here, we haven't lost anything.

EDIT: This was a hasty post, my b. My point is it was as good a time to release the list as any, and there will probably be a revised list at some point in the next few months (I would imagine), so no worries.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So when is the new list coming out? Still think it was a poor decision making this right before Corrin and Bayonetta's release. But I'm sure that's been said plenty of times.

They said in the followup that it's probably coming out in augest

 

[UberMadman]

Zard is good at the in and out of shield game, the RPS of Smash. Bowser Jr. isn't, so I can see it at least being even. Everyone juggles Zard hard. Jr isn't special in that regard; it's a given in every matchup when you play Charizard. Also I feel like Ness/Zard is even, but that's just me.

I know that everyone juggles Charizard hard, my point is that when a character who is susceptible to being juggled goes up against a character who specializes in juggling, the matchup can go south fast.

 

[R3D3MON]

I know that everyone juggles Charizard hard, my point is that when a character who is susceptible to being juggled goes up against a character who specializes in juggling, the matchup can go south fast.

This is why I think the MU between ROB and Luigi is insanely annoying and frustrating. Gyro setups and his up-air is just way too deadly on poor Luigi's air mobility. I cri everytim when a match between Boss and Mr. Eric happens.

 

[Radical Larry]

They said in the followup that it's probably coming out in augest

Which only actually gives a little bit of time after EVO 2016, so I think they should (hopefully) wait around another month.
At least it's around a time period, though, where people can get the idea of various other characters who aren't tested around and prematurely called bad. And knowingly become hypocrites along the way.

 

[Pazzo.]

Something interesting for future use:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/46a0l9/i_used_tier_list_maker_to_make_a_matchup_chart/

 

[Wintermelon43]

Something interesting for future use:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/46a0l9/i_used_tier_list_maker_to_make_a_matchup_chart/

A lot of people on here have already used it like that.

 

[Radical Larry]

Something interesting for future use:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/46a0l9/i_used_tier_list_maker_to_make_a_matchup_chart/

A lot of people on here have already used it like that.

And it's good for people's opinions on the MU. This can easily be used to make an efficient community-based tier list via mean.

 

[arbustopachon]

I'll say. Why does Charizard have an advantageous matchup against Bowser Jr.? Jr. has a positive matchup against pretty much all the heavies simply due to his juggle-based playstyle. They are absolute combo food for him, for the most part. He also struggles with the fact that Bowser Jr. has disjoints on pretty much his entire kit while also possessing better frame data overall.

first of all thanks for the feedback! as i said earlier that chart is kinda optimistic. Jr was one that i was kinda unsure.

Charizard doesn't particulary struggle with jr disjoints tho, f-tilt beats every single one of jr's grounded disjoints barring his side smash and can ocasionally beat jr's bair. jr's Dair gets beaten by u-tilt and u-air, we do struggle agains't his fair and uair tho flamethrower at least helps in both cases. Jr has to respect zard's bair tho since that move does outranges jr's aerials and has less endlag than any of them.
Jr hardcore juggles us but he has to actually work to get the juggle going.

Zard has an easy time destroying mecha koopas with d-tilt and f-tilt, we can juggle him decently and thanks to junior's size zard can properly space fairs. jr struggles against zard's jab2 mixups and oos game, also he dies pretty early when hit on his mushy head (Zard's up angled ftilt kills him at 112% at the edge of 3ds final destination without rage for example) which is pretty nice since for some reason the majority of zard's moves clip into jr's head while he is standing even when they clearly hit the kart, like his Dmash will randomly deal jr 18% or 19% of damage.

Zard can play neutral pretty decently and has good reward... he hardcore juggles us tho.

So yeah i admit that i severely underestimated jr.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I can confirm that Bowser Jr runs a train on Charizard. Low aerial mobility + heavy + few good approach options = Bowser Jr pretty much controlling the match from start to finish. Bowser Jr is a heavy weight that's really good against most other heavy weights.

On a different topic, any other Mario players really hate the Corrin matchup? It gives me flashbacks of fighting Brawl Marth all over again. It's like this character was practically designed from the bottom up to annoy Mario.

 

[Nu~]

Which only actually gives a little bit of time after EVO 2016, so I think they should (hopefully) wait around another month.
At least it's around a time period, though, where people can get the idea of various other characters who aren't tested around and prematurely called bad. And knowingly become hypocrites along the way.

A little off topic, but must you continue putting the condescending parts of your posts in tiny black font? It comes across as passive aggressive and would be better if you just came out and said it clearly.

Perhaps then we could have a real conversation about your thoughts.

 

[R3D3MON]

I can confirm that Bowser Jr runs a train on Charizard. Low aerial mobility + heavy + few good approach options = Bowser Jr pretty much controlling the match from start to finish. Bowser Jr is a heavy weight that's really good against most other heavy weights.

On a different topic, any other Mario players really hate the Corrin matchup? It gives me flashbacks for fighting Brawl Marth all over again. It's like this character was practically designed from the bottom up to annoy Mario.

Her disjoints are real. Also her neutral air basically prevents mario from approaching. I think the use of cape and FLUDD could really help out mario in the long run because Corrin's recovery is not really the best, and a lot of mario's aerials can actually intercept it. I'm facing similar problems as Luigi because her disjoints are godly, similar to Cloud. However I find perfect-shielding to do wonders in this matchup, especially when Corrins throw out f-smash at neutral.

 

[meleebrawler]

I can confirm that Bowser Jr runs a train on Charizard. Low aerial mobility + heavy + few good approach options = Bowser Jr pretty much controlling the match from start to finish. Bowser Jr is a heavy weight that's really good against most other heavy weights.

On a different topic, any other Mario players really hate the Corrin matchup? It gives me flashbacks for fighting Brawl Marth all over again. It's like this character was practically designed from the bottom up to annoy Mario.

Corrin is, alongside Marth, the purest example of a swordsman in my eyes. And characters like those generally do well against brawlers like Mario.

I mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: as a general rule, there's a rock-paper-scissors dynamic in this game with brawler-swordsman-gunner. The swordsman beats the brawler due to outspacing the latter's normals, the gunner beats the swordsman by abusing the latter's average at best mobility and lacking anti-projectile measures, and the brawler beats the gunner by outmaneuvering projectiles and outdamaging them up close.

Obviously with the variety of characters in the game who often blend aspects of the three archetypes (superheavies aside from Dedede in particular blur the line between brawler and swordfighter), things are rarely so clear-cut, but it's an interesting trend nonetheless.

 

[UberMadman]

first of all thanks for the feedback! as i said earlier that chart is kinda optimistic. Jr was one that i was kinda unsure.

Charizard doesn't particulary struggle with jr disjoints tho, f-tilt beats every single one of jr's grounded disjoints barring his side smash and can ocasionally beat jr's bair. jr's Dair gets beaten by u-tilt and u-air, we do struggle agains't his fair and uair tho flamethrower at least helps in both cases. Jr has to respect zard's bair tho since that move does outranges jr's aerials and has less endlag than any of them.
Jr hardcore juggles us but he has to actually work to get the juggle going.

Zard has an easy time destroying mecha koopas with d-tilt and f-tilt, we can juggle him decently and thanks to junior's size zard can properly space fairs. jr struggles against zard's jab2 mixups and oos game, also he dies pretty early when hit on his mushy head (Zard's up angled ftilt kills him at 112% at the edge of 3ds final destination without rage for example) which is pretty nice since for some reason the majority of zard's moves clip into jr's head while he is standing even when they clearly hit the kart, like his Dmash will randomly deal jr 18% or 19% of damage.

Zard can play neutral pretty decently and has good reward... he hardcore juggles us tho.

So yeah i admit that i severely underestimated jr.

It's chill, sorry if I came off as abrasive. For the record, I don't believe the match is super peachy keen for Jr. either, mostly for the reasons you listed, but ultimately it's one of the few matchups I'm fairly confident Jr. actually has an advantage in, even if it's only slight. I will admit that not many people play my character, so I don't blame you if you haven't had that many matches to draw your conclusion on.

 

[Vipermoon]

Corrin is, alongside Marth, the purest example of a swordsman in my eyes. And characters like those generally do well against brawlers like Mario.

I mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: as a general rule, there's a rock-paper-scissors dynamic in this game with brawler-swordsman-gunner. The swordsman beats the brawler due to outspacing the latter's normals, the gunner beats the swordsman by abusing the latter's average at best mobility and lacking anti-projectile measures, and the brawler beats the gunner by outmaneuvering projectiles and outdamaging them up close.

Obviously with the variety of characters in the game who often blend aspects of the three archetypes (superheavies aside from Dedede in particular blur the line between brawler and swordfighter), things are rarely so clear-cut, but it's an interesting trend nonetheless.

Well, that is how it is supposed to be. In reality, the swordsmen beat the gunners and lose to the brawlers. This was especially prominent the early the patches were.

 

[bc1910]

I mean, at release the swordsmen kind of just lost to everyone.

It's only after buff dumps and the addition of better swordsmen as DLC that they're able to hold their own as a group.

I can confirm that Bowser Jr runs a train on Charizard. Low aerial mobility + heavy + few good approach options = Bowser Jr pretty much controlling the match from start to finish. Bowser Jr is a heavy weight that's really good against most other heavy weights.

On a different topic, any other Mario players really hate the Corrin matchup? It gives me flashbacks of fighting Brawl Marth all over again. It's like this character was practically designed from the bottom up to annoy Mario.

It's not just you. Corrin is one of the most annoying characters in the game. He's probably my least favourite character to fight besides Sheik. I would genuinely prefer to fight Sonic. The Brawl Marth comparison is a fair one. Corrin has probably the most serviceable disjoints in the game, a Nair that you just can't challenge, an annoying projectile, the second best counter in the game (that's probably the best in disadvantage), the list goes on and on.

He doesn't have any particularly notable weaknesses to abuse, unlike Cloud who is a better character overall but has a crap recovery and a worse disadvantage state. Corrin's disadvantage in particular is hard to deal with, especially for a character like Mario. Nair comes out fast, covers a huge range around his body and lingers a bit. Dair lets him plummet back to earth at a moment's notice with surprisingly low landing lag. Most notably, Counter Surge makes any attempt at aerial chasing extremely risky because of the vertical knockback. No other counter kills well in the air, not even Witch Time.

Ugh. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan.

 

[C0rvus]

Dragon Fang moves all have extended hurt boxes on them. I know for a fact that includes side special and forward smash. Wouldn't be surprised if it included the limb hitboxes of nair, up smash, down smash, and maybe even bair. Just saying.
Also I should hope Corrin's utter lack of landing mixups, mediocre mobility and recovery should be enough to take advantage of.

 

[Latias]

Dragon Fang moves all have extended hurt boxes on them. I know for a fact that includes side special and forward smash. Wouldn't be surprised if it included the limb hitboxes of nair, up smash, down smash, and maybe even bair. Just saying.
Also I should hope Corrin's utter lack of landing mixups, mediocre mobility and recovery should be enough to take advantage of.

How does he lack landing mixups?

 

[Luco]

C0rvus Ness Zard is weird. People like to skip over Ness' insane ability to juggle (probably because it's not as good vs MUs where the opponent has significantly more mobility than him), so Charizard doesn't reaallllyyy like being above Ness, but flip-side is Charizard does enough damage to make Ness scared in neutral, edge-guards him decently and also juggles him, not to mention he's heavy so Ness' kill options work that much later. I haven't seen this MU happen at top level though and we don't have a good Charizard in my area at all. It's possible it's actually even for the same reasons that Bowser is even, not sure yet.

EDIT: I just carelessly disregarded one of the best players in my region ( ) and should actually say I haven't played this MU very much recently and probably will in the future so I'mma get back to you on that one lawl.

 

[C0rvus]

How does he lack landing mixups?

Mediocre air speed paired with the same few options most every character has: falling nair seems okay, you can b-reverse DFS but it doesn't get too much distance. I guess you could mix in counter ofc. Maybe a better way of saying it was "he's pretty susceptible to juggles as he lacks any sort of combo breaking aerial or strong landing option."

Luco Lack of relevant footage definitely hurts everyones' arguments. It more than likely is in Ness's favor but it stands as one of Charizard's very doable MUs against good characters.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dragon Fang moves all have extended hurt boxes on them. I know for a fact that includes side special and forward smash. Wouldn't be surprised if it included the limb hitboxes of nair, up smash, down smash, and maybe even bair. Just saying.
Also I should hope Corrin's utter lack of landing mixups, mediocre mobility and recovery should be enough to take advantage of.

I definitely noticed that.

But he doesn't lack landing mix-ups.

Nair
Fair
Bair (and this moves you pretty far)
Dair (so underrated)
Nspecial, can wavebounce, B reverse, and charge the bite separately
Fspecial
Dspecial

Also, I'm estimating that his fall speed is the same as Ike's at 1.65 which is high-ish.

 

[Nu~]

Not sure just how much his hurtbox is extended however. In tests with bumpers (courtesy of @TheReflexWonder ) Corrin's fsmash doesn't activate the bumpers at any length. This is strange considering that bumpers interact with every hurtbox...

 

[C0rvus]

Huh, I was about to do the bumper test. That's odd. Anyway how could I forget bair? Such a cool move. Part of me wished it behaved more like Mii Gunner fair. That move is nutty.

 

[Jams.]

He doesn't have any particularly notable weaknesses to abuse, unlike Cloud who is a better character overall but has a crap recovery and a worse disadvantage state. Corrin's disadvantage in particular is hard to deal with, especially for a character like Mario. Nair comes out fast, covers a huge range around his body and lingers a bit. Dair lets him plummet back to earth at a moment's notice with surprisingly low landing lag. Most notably, Counter Surge makes any attempt at aerial chasing extremely risky because of the vertical knockback. No other counter kills well in the air, not even Witch Time.

Ugh. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan.

I honestly think Corrin's recovery is nearly Cloud tier. At the very least, it's bad enough to be consistently abused by characters other than the top tier edgeguarders, unlike most recoveries in this game. His upb is 2 frame bait, with its long start-up and slow travel speed. In addition, Corrin's poor air mobility means he'll be forced to use it more often than not. Bair doesn't make up for this, and often must to used to even make it to the ledge, leaving Corrin open. Side b, when it can be used, is still a large commitment because he can't act until the apex of the jump, and is stuck in the pinning animation for a time.

I also think you underrate Cloud's disadvantage state. Despite Corrin's multiple landing options, he still has to commit to each option and can be punished accordingly by most characters if they make the correct read. As Rosalina, I don't care about Corrin's landing options because they all lose to uair. Meanwhile, Cloud throws out a giant hitbox below him and all I can do is respect it. His dair throws the general trend of uair>dair onto its head.

 

[Lavani]

This is strange considering that bumpers interact with every hurtbox...

Bumpers interact with collisionboxes, not hurtboxes. You can hit them with moves that aren't disjointed at all like Mario's jab and not get bounced away.

Bob-ombs for small disjoint and Gooey Bombs for large disjoint are my go-to items for testing that sort of thing.

 

[JesterJaded]

Interestingly enough, Marss seems to have a pocket Lucas - for funsies or ditto disrespect, I haven't a clue, but here he is out Lucasing Meccs' Lucas (no offense):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYv1cprn0WY

Though it's only a weekly, it does provide data for footstool flubs with Marss pulling the combo off at 14% to 52% for a solid 38% reward. Data suggests that the footstool combo's difficult but doable around 30+% but relatively easy at low%.

Here's hoping Marss takes the next major with Lucas for giggles.

 

[Luco]

Oh yeah, Meccs told us about that. Really interested to see what Marss does with that Lucas, and nice to see him utilising the footstool combos because that doesn't really happen at high level much with him atm.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Interestingly enough, Marss seems to have a pocket Lucas - for funsies or ditto disrespect, I haven't a clue, but here he is out Lucasing Meccs' Lucas (no offense):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYv1cprn0WY

Though it's only a weekly, it does provide data for footstool flubs with Marss pulling the combo off at 14% to 52% for a solid 38% reward. Data suggests that the footstool combo's difficult but doable around 30+% but relatively easy at low%.

Here's hoping Marss takes the next major with Lucas for giggles.

I feel like Lucas's damage output is really under developed. If you're serious about the character it's definitely something to look into.

Also hooray! My weekly scene has been noticed!

Edit: Oh hang on that's GU. Anti climactic. Soon...

 

[RosalinA]

I honestly think Corrin's recovery is nearly Cloud tier. At the very least, it's bad enough to be consistently abused by characters other than the top tier edgeguarders, unlike most recoveries in this game. His upb is 2 frame bait, with its long start-up and slow travel speed. In addition, Corrin's poor air mobility means he'll be forced to use it more often than not.

But isn't it true that, unlike Cloud's up-special, Corrin's has super armor?

 

[Lavani]

But isn't it true that, unlike Cloud's up-special, Corrin's has super armor?

Nope.

It has a bit of invincibility late in the startup though, but nothing while actually moving.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, at release the swordsmen kind of just lost to everyone.

It's only after buff dumps and the addition of better swordsmen as DLC that they're able to hold their own as a group.



It's not just you. Corrin is one of the most annoying characters in the game. He's probably my least favourite character to fight besides Sheik. I would genuinely prefer to fight Sonic. The Brawl Marth comparison is a fair one. Corrin has probably the most serviceable disjoints in the game, a Nair that you just can't challenge, an annoying projectile, the second best counter in the game (that's probably the best in disadvantage), the list goes on and on.

He doesn't have any particularly notable weaknesses to abuse, unlike Cloud who is a better character overall but has a crap recovery and a worse disadvantage state. Corrin's disadvantage in particular is hard to deal with, especially for a character like Mario. Nair comes out fast, covers a huge range around his body and lingers a bit. Dair lets him plummet back to earth at a moment's notice with surprisingly low landing lag. Most notably, Counter Surge makes any attempt at aerial chasing extremely risky because of the vertical knockback. No other counter kills well in the air, not even Witch Time.

Ugh. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan.

In my experience, Corrin's greatest weakness (aside from getting gimped) is superior zoning. While Dragon Fang Shot may be adequate against minor projectile users like Ryu or Mario, anything more than that snuffs it out easily, leaving Corrin forced to slog his way past them to his spacing range. Once there, aerial Dragon Fang Lunge can be a good overcommitment punish, but one wrong move can easily lead to the gunner giving him the slip, putting him back at square one.

I can see Villager being a problem MU for him.

 

[Mr. Johan]

A fully charged DFS only does 11%, so any projectile other than Fox Laser is going to kill it, so it's not like he can camp with it.

tbh Falcon may be his hardest MU, just due to how quickly Falcon can get in on his range and sweep him up with Dash Grab and Uair. That he can consistently punish any DL option with meaningful reward (this includes the jump option, which the only faster character Sonic can only really get a weaker Uair from) at any moment is worth noting on its own.

Other than that, I actually think Bowser and DK give him a hard time. Anyone that can really corner Corrin and be ready to fight his moves directly with their own range will give Corrin problems.

 

[Ffamran]

In addition, Corrin's poor air mobility means he'll be forced to use it more often than not. Bair doesn't make up for this, and often must to used to even make it to the ledge, leaving Corrin open. Side b, when it can be used, is still a large commitment because he can't act until the apex of the jump, and is stuck in the pinning animation for a time.

(According to a special black steel hammer) Freaking Corrin's fall and run speeds are copied and pasted from Ike's. Air speed: 1, tied with Robin, fall speed: 1.65, same as Ike's, so yes, she's a fast faller, run speed: 1.5, same as Ike's, and walk speed: 1.2, tied with Charizard and Mewtwo. If we assume Corrin's air acceleration is average and Corrin's jump as pretty average, then Corrin's average compared to speedsters Lucina, Marth, and Roy and slow... people Ike and Robin.

Oh, and for Bayonetta, air speed is 0.97 tied with Wii Fit Trainer, fall speed is apparently between 1.8 and 1.75, run speed is 1.6, and walk speed is 0.9 tied with Olimar. Again, nothing for air acceleration, but knowing Bayonetta and Devil May Cry, probably low or average. This also puts her at pretty average like Corrin, kind of Lucas, and Ryu while Cloud, Mewtwo (even before 1.1.3), and Roy were the speedsters. It's funny since her run animation looks slow (just like Dante's does in DMC), but she's average speed like Mario and Ryu whose running animations are much faster. Then again, she's got really long legs so she might actually be "running slow" and it fits with how she moves in Bayonetta: not too fast, but not too slow... And then there's ZSS who runs ridiculously fast with her long legs in heels.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'll say. Why does Charizard have an advantageous matchup against Bowser Jr.? Jr. has a positive matchup against pretty much all the heavies simply due to his juggle-based playstyle. They are absolute combo food for him, for the most part. He also struggles with the fact that Bowser Jr. has disjoints on pretty much his entire kit while also possessing better frame data overall.

I will bring one thing up about the matchup. Flamethrower just destroys Jr.'s recovery options.

Everything else you said is very much true. Jr. destroys Charizard at neutral, but recovery can easily become a Rosalina X Ness situation if Jr. isn't extremely careful.

Charizard completely removes the option to recover low and makes anything but recovering high tricky.

That neutral though.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Pray for me....I possibly will be playing 2 times Saturday for the LandLocked event in Indiana. If I beat him..….….. a huge boost to my ego and yeah. If I lose, no biggie right?

 

[Mario766]

Pray for me....I possibly will be playing 2 times Saturday for the LandLocked event in Indiana. If I beat him..….….. a huge boost to my ego and yeah. If I lose, no biggie right?

Take it in stride, you win or you lose.

Just be warned pools might change, there was some issues with MI being in pools together and also doubles partners being in the same Singles pools which is a no-no.