Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

I think the most curious thing about Some's MU chart is that he thinks MK has a very slight advantage against Gren and that Megaman has a significant advantage.

Also that he thinks we go even with Fox

 

[Megamang]

The MK thing surprises me, as getting out of ladder combos AND recovering safely AND having a really solid neutral seems like a recipe for beating MK.

 

[Sonicninja115]

does actually body though? like moreso than ?

I have never found ZSS/Mewtwo to be overly difficult. I would place it no higher then 60:40, while Shiek and Fox are about 65+. Mewtwo can handle the things ZSS has easier then Fox and Shiek IMO.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think the most curious thing about Some's MU chart is that he thinks MK has a very slight advantage against Gren and that Megaman has a significant advantage.

Also that he thinks we go even with Fox

Well he did just beat Shogun, and he is a really good Fox over there

 

[Shaya]

The MK thing surprises me, as getting out of ladder combos AND recovering safely AND having a really solid neutral seems like a recipe for beating MK.

1. Does not suddenly win games and hyping this up indefinitely is probably worse / less applicable in the real world than short characters crouching.

2. It's a good recovery but not immune to harassment

3. Solid neutral doesn't stop it only being above average at best and MK doesn't care about average neutrals.

 

[Megamang]

It can suddenly win games, it turns MK's shuttle loop into a risky move because it can kill him extremely early if it hits near the ceiling. And I fail to see how it isn't applicable, you just use SS when you are being laddered. Its not like there is anything else you could be doing, if the MK is able to true combo it. Dabuz has shown us what short crouching can do, but I agree we overhype the **** out of it in these threads for other characters.

I'll concede 2 and 3, at least against MK specifically.

 

[FullMoon]

All things considered I think the only time I've seen MK vs Greninja in tournament was Katakiri vs KERO and those matches seemed fairly evenly matched if I remember right.

I wish I could say more about the MU but there's no decent MK players in my area for me to play with that I know of

 

[Djmarcus44]

I guess because Ness doesn't have something to annoy Robin from afar. Lucas has the snake and PK Fire.


Speaking of gatekeeping, just how much characters the blonde trio gatekeeps? On top of my head:


Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely:




Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely:



Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely/beats them up really bad:


Missing someone?

The Gunner and Rosalina boards actually agreed that the matchup is 60:40 in Rosalina's favor. While she beats Gunner, Gunner's fair outranges Rosalina and Luma's attacks, and it gives Gunner about a 9 frame advantage against Gravitational Pull. Also, Gunner can get rid of Luma pretty easily with dash attack, down smash, forward smash, and flame pillar.

 

[ARGHETH]

I guess because Ness doesn't have something to annoy Robin from afar. Lucas has the snake and PK Fire.


Speaking of gatekeeping, just how much characters the blonde trio gatekeeps? On top of my head:


Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely:




Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely:



Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely/beats them up really bad:


Missing someone?

Raziek and Dath don't actually htink Rosalina is that bad a matchup (45:55) according to their MU chart. The horrible one is apparently ZSS, at 25:75.

 

[L9999]

That's why I wrote in a slash "beats them up badly". I don't know everything there is to every character, but I just know it's a bad matchup.

 

[Vipermoon]

One thing that's a really good sign is we finally know anD agree on widespread who the best characters are. The guys who are a cut above the rest.

I doubt anyone will disagree with me if I say that these characters are the top 7 (don't pay attention to the order, I just selected them as they came up)



And don't pay attention to the "7" either. That just happens to be the number of characters that are that "cut above".

Edit: wow, apparently this thread hasn't been feeling this combination of characters

Whatever, I'll just use my get out of jail free card...
IMO

 

[Locke 06]

One thing that's a really good sign is we finally know ane agree on widespread who the best characters are. The guys who are a cut above the rest.

I doubt anyone will disagree with me if I say that these characters are the top 7 (don't pay attention to the order, I just selected them as they came up)



And don't pay attention to the "7" either. That just happens to be the number of characters that are obviously that cut above.

I would very much disagree.

 

[wm1026]

One thing that's a really good sign is we finally know ane agree on widespread who the best characters are. The guys who are a cut above the rest.

I doubt anyone will disagree with me if I say that these characters are the top 7 (don't pay attention to the order, I just selected them as they came up)



And don't pay attention to the "7" either. That just happens to be the number of characters that are obviously that cut above.

I would say makes a strong case to either take or place. One can not just ignore Zero's Diddy. Isn't that what the whole argument with earlier. Take Esam away and the character (results wise) is mid tier or low high at best? Has all the tools to be in that top 7. He also has the results to back it up as well. His biggest although not crippling flaw is his recovery but then there is and he is in that top 7. Also I don't agree putting there this early.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Gonna say it now.....DK don't lose too hard to ZSS. His hardest MU is the Fox and MK. Fox out buttons DK so hard. MK ladder is flexible on DK. ZSS tho is not there. BK is inescapable for DK yes, but with DI and now the Nerf, its super easy to live. Yes ZSS can combo you to hell, but outside of then 0-70% for DK, hits are far and between IMO. They stop comboing and stop hurting while DK can then lay some lumber. ZSS with rage also sucks as getting out of moves become easy.

Call me crazy but the MU is 6:4. In other words, winnable, but play smart.

Also if I see clips of DKWill v Remzi, I'm gonna flip as he wasn't even DI the BK right. DKWill labs a lot but seems not to lab stuff important to the top meta.

 

[Pazx]

One thing that's a really good sign is we finally know ane agree on widespread who the best characters are. The guys who are a cut above the rest.

I doubt anyone will disagree with me if I say that these characters are the top 7 (don't pay attention to the order, I just selected them as they came up)



And don't pay attention to the "7" either. That just happens to be the number of characters that are obviously that cut above.

I disagree too, and I'm confident many others would also. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anybody present the same top 7 as you, and I went back through this thread as well as twitter and some discord servers just to make sure. Speaking in absolutes like this is a good way to get people to say "you're wrong" and nothing more. The arrogance behind your post is likely worse than the content of it.

In the interest of not proving my own point, I have to say that Cloud is likely the weakest of the 7 you've suggested and I don't see him as top 7 right now. I also think Ryu might be struggling for his place against the likes of , depending on who you ask (I'm personally not a huge believer in Mario or Pikachu). Bayo is another small question mark at this point, she's certainly good but we don't actually know how her high tier matchups play out just yet.

 

[Mario766]

DKWill has consistent losses to ZSS in bracket, that's more of a statement than just a set with one ZSS. The MU is likely more like 65:35 if anything.

 

[Megamang]

Limit puts cloud's recovery above a lot of others IMO. He gets it from taking 100%, doing 250%, and charging it. By the time he has enough damage to be sent offstage, he should be close to limit enough to finish it in the air to recover, unless he is being absolutely destroyed. Keeping it charged for the stat boost + guaranteed recovery seems to be much more effective than using it in neutral. And, if you only use it from confirms or whiff punishes, it sends them far enough away to charge it almost halfway, sometimes more. Then, it can be laglessly microcharged... I find myself gimping cloud, or being gimped as cloud, less and less. I'd say its better than Ryu's recovery. It is only really damning when you use it once to snap, then get read on the ledge and sent back out. If a character has a good d-smash or tilt, you are hosed. Thats about it though.

 

[Browny]

I'm still sitting here waiting for people to dair clouds recovery at its apex instead of trying to dsmash it and get hit by his upb over and over.

Its like... actually difficult to mess up, theres such a large frame window to hit him at.

Also I cant wait for Ryu to stop being overhyped.

How can anyone ignore that he has some of the best players in the world using him, yet he consistently falls short of doing anything in major tournaments. Toon link has FAR more national level success than Ryu ever has.

 

[Megamang]

Ryu punishes you so freakin hard for trying to fight him head on it is just blatantly obvious after playing with him a few games how you should approach the MU, ie not ever truly fight or box him. Others are more obscure.

 

[Luco]

You guys should check this out, it was just posted on the front page and should probably go here to spark discussion and other things:

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list-followup.431229/

​

Earlier this month, the 4BR released the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U:

This time, we want to address some frequently asked questions and dive a little deeper into the results.

Frequently Asked Questions

Why did the 4BR release a tier list only a few days before a new patch?

A tier list isn’t created overnight and there is never a perfect time. We started creation of this first tier list back in December, on a build that left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and introduced only one new character. We ended up extending the process to include Genesis 3 as a case study and were already close to the final release when the announcement of the 1.1.4 patch happened.

We always knew that there were two more characters on the way, which we didn’t consider too major a problem in the sense that a tier list is a part of history that gets updated over time. Ideally, this would not have been the first list, but patches and major tournaments kept happening too quickly on short notice to find a period of relative stability.

Does the 1.1.4 patch invalidate the tier list?

For the most part, no. Most characters did not change significantly, as can be seen in the patch notes for 1.1.4. The biggest buffs befell Toon Link, Falco, Marth/Lucina, Roy, Ike and Little Mac, while Bowser lost his kill confirm from upthrow at higher percentages as the most significant nerf.

It is too early to judge the impact Bayonetta and Corrin have on the metagame, and we won’t have a major tournament to look at until Pound 2016 in April. The alternative to handling the tier list the way we did would have been postponing the project for multiple months, at which point we would have to consider postponing it further to include the onslaught of summer events.

Why is my favourite character considered low tier?

Besides the fact that very few individuals will 100% agree with any given tier list, it seems like many people are hung up on what it meant to be a low tier in other Smash games, with Brawl being the most direct comparison. Smash 4 is a relatively balanced game for various reasons, and we have a tournament example of a top player beating another top player in a matchup of the worst character in the game against the best character in the game. By definition, some characters have to be on the low end of the distribution, and even a character with various tools is at the bottom if 50 other characters are considered better.

When will the tier list be updated?
We are aiming for an update after the summer events, which puts the tentative date somewhere in August.

Analysis of DLC characters and regional differences

Standard deviations were large across the board; the degree of consensus was low outside of some characters at the top and bottom. Some people suspected that standard deviations would be particularly high for the more recent DLC additions, but this was not necessarily the case. There were, however, some interesting regional differences and many community comments regarding the DLC characters, so we will zoom in on them in turn.

Shaya compiled the votes among Japanese and European voters. Keep in mind that there were only 6 Japanese and 8 European voters, making these numbers indicative of trends, but unfit for sweeping statements.

Spoiler: Japanese votes

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Zero Suit Samus | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Cloud | 19.5 | 0.764 | 0.5
Sonic | 19.17 | 0.687 | 0.333
Rosalina | 19.17 | 0.373 | 0.0
Meta Knight | 19.0 | 0.0 | 0.167
Villager | 18.17 | 1.067 | 0.833
Diddy Kong | 18.0 | 0.577 | 0.167
Pikachu | 17.5 | 0.5 | 0.5
Ryu | 17.33 | 1.106 | 0.167
Fox | 17.33 | 0.471 | 0.0
Ness | 16.83 | 0.687 | 0.5
Mario | 16.67 | 0.943 | 0.167
Pit | 16.5 | 0.764 | 0.167
Captain Falcon | 16.0 | 1.155 | 0.5
Dark Pit | 15.0 | 1.528 | 1.0
Yoshi | 14.5 | 0.957 | 0.5
Toon Link | 14.0 | 1.155 | 0.5
Peach | 13.83 | 1.344 | 0.167
Wario | 13.83 | 0.373 | 0.0
Lucario | 13.5 | 0.957 | 0.333
Olimar | 13.33 | 1.491 | 0.167
R.O.B. | 12.5 | 0.957 | 0.833
Bowser | 12.33 | 1.795 | 0.167
Duck Hunt Dog | 12.0 | 1.826 | 0.333
Pac-Man | 12.0 | 1.0 | 0.0
Luigi | 11.5 | 1.118 | 0.5
Mega Man | 11.5 | 0.957 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 11.17 | 0.687 | 0.333
Shulk | 11.0 | 2.38 | 0.167
Mr. Game & Watch | 10.83 | 1.344 | 0.167
Greninja | 10.17 | 1.951 | 0.667
Robin | 9.67 | 1.106 | 0.5
Ike | 9.5 | 0.764 | 0.167
Donkey Kong | 9.17 | 1.572 | 0.333
Link | 8.5 | 1.803 | 0.667
Bowser Jr. | 8.5 | 1.5 | 0.0
Dr. Mario | 7.67 | 2.494 | 0.833
Mii Gunner | 7.33 | 2.211 | 0.333
Lucas | 7.17 | 1.675 | 0.167
King Dedede | 7.17 | 0.687 | 0.0
Palutena | 7.0 | 1.155 | 0.167
Marth | 6.0 | 0.816 | 1.0
Little Mac | 5.83 | 2.034 | 0.167
Roy | 5.67 | 1.795 | 0.167
Wii Fit Trainer | 5.33 | 1.106 | 0.333
Falco | 5.0 | 1.633 | 0.333
Mii Brawler | 4.83 | 1.462 | 0.167
Charizard | 4.67 | 1.7 | 0.167
Samus | 4.33 | 1.795 | 0.333
Kirby | 4.33 | 1.374 | 0.0
Lucina | 3.83 | 1.462 | 0.5
Ganondorf | 3.83 | 1.462 | 0.0
Jigglypuff | 2.67 | 1.106 | 1.167
Zelda | 1.83 | 0.373 | 0.833
Mii Swordsman | 1.17 | 0.373 | 0.667

Spoiler: European votes

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.5 | 0.5 | 0.5
Rosalina | 18.83 | 0.687 | 0.667
Pikachu | 18.67 | 0.745 | 0.167
Ryu | 18.0 | 0.577 | 0.667
Sonic | 17.5 | 1.118 | 0.5
Mario | 17.33 | 0.943 | 0.167
Fox | 17.17 | 1.344 | 0.167
Meta Knight | 17.17 | 1.067 | 0.0
Diddy Kong | 17.17 | 0.687 | 0.0
Villager | 16.5 | 1.5 | 0.667
Yoshi | 16.33 | 0.745 | 0.167
Cloud | 16.33 | 0.471 | 0.0
Ness | 15.83 | 0.687 | 0.5
Captain Falcon | 14.5 | 0.5 | 1.333
Luigi | 14.17 | 1.772 | 0.333
Toon Link | 13.67 | 0.745 | 0.5
Greninja | 13.5 | 2.566 | 0.167
R.O.B. | 13.33 | 2.055 | 0.167
Peach | 13.17 | 2.115 | 0.167
Wario | 13.17 | 1.344 | 0.0
Dark Pit | 12.67 | 1.491 | 0.5
Pit | 12.5 | 1.5 | 0.167
Lucario | 11.83 | 1.462 | 0.667
Mega Man | 11.67 | 2.625 | 0.167
Donkey Kong | 11.33 | 2.494 | 0.333
Olimar | 11.17 | 2.478 | 0.167
Ike | 10.83 | 2.672 | 0.333
Bowser | 10.0 | 3.606 | 0.833
Pac-Man | 10.0 | 1.291 | 0.0
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.83 | 1.951 | 1.167
Roy | 8.67 | 2.749 | 0.167
Robin | 8.0 | 3.109 | 0.667
King Dedede | 8.0 | 2.53 | 0.0
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.0 | 2.16 | 0.0
Mewtwo | 7.5 | 1.893 | 0.5
Bowser Jr. | 7.17 | 2.544 | 0.333
Dr. Mario | 7.17 | 1.772 | 0.0
Shulk | 7.0 | 1.732 | 0.167
Link | 6.83 | 2.339 | 0.167
Falco | 6.67 | 2.925 | 0.167
Marth | 6.67 | 2.494 | 0.0
Kirby | 6.33 | 4.028 | 0.333
Duck Hunt Dog | 6.33 | 1.374 | 0.0
Little Mac | 6.0 | 3.109 | 0.333
Mii Brawler | 6.0 | 3.098 | 0.0
Lucas | 5.33 | 1.886 | 0.667
Palutena | 4.5 | 0.764 | 0.833
Lucina | 4.33 | 2.211 | 0.167
Charizard | 3.67 | 2.625 | 0.667
Samus | 3.5 | 1.979 | 0.167
Jigglypuff | 3.17 | 2.339 | 0.333
Mii Gunner | 2.4 | 0.8 | 0.767
Ganondorf | 2.17 | 0.687 | 0.233
Mii Swordsman | 2.0 | 1.549 | 0.167
Zelda | 1.17 | 0.373 | 0.833

At the time of voting, Cloud was the most recent addition to the cast. We were fortunate to immediately receive a major showcase of the character at Genesis 3, where various Japanese players in attendance mained or secondaried him. Although he mainly dominated doubles and ended up not making it into singles top 8, players like Komorikiri showed that the swordsman was not to be trifled with.

It is perhaps unsurprising then that our group of 6 Japanese voters put Cloud at #3 on average, a stark contrast to his #12 placing in the final list and #13 placing among European voters. Time will tell which is closer to the truth, but with powerhouses like Mew2King picking him up in the western hemisphere as well, he will no doubt continue to stay relevant. For further insights and expert opinions, you can read this article that was released earlier this month.



Lucas is noteworthy for his tier list placement having the fifth highest standard deviation among the entire cast; there is not much consensus on the character. The overall tier list put him at #36, while Japanese voters put him at a somewhat lower #40. The disparity in opinions is even more apparent when Europe comes into play: the European voters placed Lucas at #47, on average.

Although Europe has no high level Lucas players, as opposed to the USA with Pink Fresh and Japan with Taiheita, the character seems to have a general representation problem. When considering statistics such as the SmashBoards rankings, Lucas ranks poorly in representation at all levels of play and is found among clone characters like Dr. Mario and Lucina.

On that note, one can speculate that Lucas is largely overshadowed by his high-tier franchise counterpart Ness, who boasts more top-level mains, a quicker grab in conjunction with a lethal back-throw, and better aerials. Lucas does have an additional recovery option in a tether, a frame 2 jab, good followups from his (unfortunately, laggy) grab, and aerials that flow together well. This toolkit could very well allow him to surpass his low-tier peers in the right person's hands, and we hope the character will be fleshed out more.



Mewtwo was significantly buffed in the 1.1.3 patch, with moves connecting to each other more easily and less endlag on his aerials. Despite several people moving him up over the voting process as a result of these buffs, we have to own up to the fact that the 4BR does not have much representation for Mewtwo among membership. The Japanese voted him at #29, while Europe put him at #36 and the finalized list at #37.

Although he did not make a splash at Genesis 3 and we have already established that he is a clear cut above bottom tier, it could turn out that his buffs were underrated in the long run. We were happy to get some insights from 4BR member and established high level player @TheReflexWonder, who recently invested a lot of time in the character.





Roy had the second highest standard deviation for this tier list, second only to Kirby. While the overall tier list and European voters put him at #32, the Japanese voters put him at #45, further indicating the lack of consensus on the fiery swordsman. Roy has had one of the more interesting runs so far, and we got Fire Emblem enthusiast Shaya to elaborate on his position.





Ryu ended up at a very high #4, leading the pack of characters right after top tier. Once again we find noteworthy regional differences, with the Japanese putting Ryu at #10 on average, while European voters considered him #5 after Pikachu. The 4BR is fortunate to count @Trela among its ranks, one of the players pushing the character the hardest. He had this to say:





While not a DLC character, Greninja is worth mentioning for being another character with large regional differences in perception. The tier list puts him at #25, while Japan puts him at #32 and Europe puts him at #18. The latter continent has three notable Greninja mains in @istudying (the Netherlands), Elexiao (France) and Eddy (Germany). We asked iStudying, who is a 4BR member, to share some insights into Greninja's current situation.



Conclusion

We hope these explanations have shed some light on why the tier list was released when it was and provided food for thought on some of the more hotly debated characters. With (now) 58 characters on the roster and many of them still underexplored, or only dominant in certain regions, it will be interesting to see where people take their characters and how international clashes turn out. As always, we'll be looking forward to your thoughts in the comments below.

Thanks go out to Shaya for providing data on votes per region and @Zigsta for various contributions and ideas.

In regards to the recent posts, I think while it is too early to count Bayo as one of the top 7, I do think over time she'll present herself as a large threat and a massive gate-keeper. Characters that can't deal with Witch Time, combos and bullet arts chip damage will really dislike seeing this character in tournament.

And yet while I'm convinced she'll be a threat, I'm not sure about top 7 in the long run, not after what happened with Dabuz and Nairo, not after what we know about SDI-ing WT. With Ryu at least there was more and more stuff found about what he could confirm into, but with bayo it kinda feels like the recent discoveries have been about what you can avoid.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I'm still sitting here waiting for people to dair clouds recovery at its apex instead of trying to dsmash it and get hit by his upb over and over.

Its like... actually difficult to mess up, theres such a large frame window to hit him at.

Also I cant wait for Ryu to stop being overhyped.

How can anyone ignore that he has some of the best players in the world using him, yet he consistently falls short of doing anything in major tournaments. Toon link has FAR more national level success than Ryu ever has.

Well I mean, Cloud players have optimized their recovery to a point that they barely ever recover from below the ledge, and even when they do, they space it so his head doesn't pop over the ledge and he snaps safely.

Ryu's punish game and guarantees are too good for him to not be top 10, I do agree he was overhyped, but Tink has had since launch for players to optimize him, Ryu needs the time.

 

[Browny]

I'm willing to bet that both 9B and Trela will drop Ryu before they ever optimise him to a point where they can get top 4 at a national.

 

[bc1910]

1. Does not suddenly win games and hyping this up indefinitely is probably worse / less applicable in the real world than short characters crouching.

2. It's a good recovery but not immune to harassment

3. Solid neutral doesn't stop it only being above average at best and MK doesn't care about average neutrals.

1. Couldn't agree more on the hyping BUT this is way more applicable than crouching. It's a guaranteed way to get out of otherwise guaranteed combos on reaction. Can't be written off, especially because it's most consistent in this particular MU and Gren appears right behind MK to hit with the counterattack which can kill him at 70 near the top.

2. True.

3. His neutral is well above average. MK does care about being locked out with spammy projectiles and safe tilts, especially when his main death combo won't work most of the time.

Greninja is better equipped than most to fight MK.

EDIT: Shaya another note on why I love what you said about the hyping - the hitstun cancel can be affected by rage. You can't cancel out of SL once MK has built up some rage. This isn't a clutch, more like a get out of jail free in certain situations. It is guaranteed in those situations, though. Another notable one is ZSS Boost Kick out of shield which AFAIK can be cancelled regardless of rage.

 

[Das Koopa]

I disagree that Cloud is a clear top 7 character; I'm of the firm belief that characters with exploitable weaknesses will get more and more exploited the more efficient and optimal the meta becomes. I don't think Limit Break has the standing power a move like Rest does in Melee and a gimpable recovery is really bad long-term imo.

He's good, but I think he can only go down.

 

[Kofu]

Sometimes I wish there was a Luma icon because Luma is the real gatekeeper for a lot of the characters that lose to Rosalina. If you get Luma out of the way (and could KEEP it out) the Game & Watch/Rosalina matchup would likely be even. I'd say in Game & Watch's favor but I don't have the experience to be sure and thus could be wrong. Rosalina's transcendent/disjointed attacks are a problem but it's largely the power (high base knockback) and added hitboxes that Luma brings that make the fight so hard since Game & Watch is so light.

 

[warionumbah2]

All things considered I think the only time I've seen MK vs Greninja in tournament was Katakiri vs KERO and those matches seemed fairly evenly matched if I remember right.

I wish I could say more about the MU but there's no decent MK players in my area for me to play with that I know of

MK vs Greninja happened once at a decent level and the MK won anyway. This happened MONTHS ago. Too much theorycraft on Greninja countering MK because he can get out of the death combo(and it isn't even reliable like it is vs ZSS and Bayo).

Abadango would most likely struggle vs Greninja because he's all about the death combo, no matter what. Some is probably one of the few Greninja's to play competent MKs, since they all chill on the Japanese ladder and never enter offline tournaments.

People want to see this with their eyes at top level play, not written up on SB. At least not anymore.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well he did just beat Shogun, and he is a really good Fox over there

Shogun's isn't that good yet. I don't think he's a top 5 Fox tbh [Larry, SH, Xzax and Sodrek are top 4 imo, 5th is kind of up for grabs ... it'd be Nietono if he actually played the character seriously].

But I agree that's likely the reason Some believes the matchup to be even.

 

[NairWizard]

In my very first Smashboards post, which happened to be in the Character Competitive Impressions topic, I said that as the game evolved, characters with the ability to kill easily/without much risk would end up being the strongest. In that post I underestimated Sheik and ZSS for their KO power, since those were 3DS days and neither character was optimized, but that feeling has generally strengthened over time for me. The ability to remove stocks with low risk is the difference between a great character and a good character.

So, Pikachu isn't that good. He doesn't have killing aerials, or very good kill confirms (I'm uncertain about up-throw Thunder for various reasons). Saying that he sucks or that he's trash is probably a stretch, but he's not top tier or close to it.

He is a read-intensive character who needs to make reads to sustain damage output in advantage and to get the KO. He has the tools to make these reads with relatively low risk, as his aerials are fast and lagless enough with quirky hitboxes to allow for creativity/unpredictability; and then there's f-smash as a great (and strong) landing trap, lingering d-air to cover ledge options, edgeguarding, and a variety of other things. But as a read-based character, Pikachu is fundamentally inferior to characters who don't need reads to wrack up damage and kill, such as Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina. These characters have far better matchup spreads due to the ease with which they end stocks.

Pikachu doesn't beat anyone by more than +1. His inability to secure stocks without a read means that opponents can always come back against him or get one good hit and turn the match around. Consider it an inverse Lucario effect. Matchups he theoretically wins or has been stated to win (ZSS? Ryu? Rosalina?) have proven to be winnable for the other side, if not even.

That said, the matchups he theoretically loses have never been that one-sided (Mario, Ness), with counterplay and close sets between top players (ESAM and whoever else), so he probably doesn't lose to anyone by more than -1 either. Which is enough to make the character good, probably top 20, but top 10 is too high.

Shaya

I don't understand the comparison to Meta Knight. Meta Knight is a baiting character who relies on fatal punishes. Pikachu is a pressure/mixup character who relies on reads. They are completely different.

And the reason that the shield safety patch didn't do much for Pikachu is that Pikachu's game has never been to play safely against shields. It's completely different from the Zero Suit case. It's a buff in the nominal sense of the word, sure, and it helped out some of his bad matchups, but overall he would have much preferred other things like additional range, a kill confirm, or higher damage output (none of which ZSS would have needed).

 

[Luco]

In my very first Smashboards post, which happened to be in the Character Competitive Impressions topic, I said that as the game evolved, characters with the ability to kill easily/without much risk would end up being the strongest. In that post I underestimated Sheik and ZSS for their KO power, since those were 3DS days and neither character was optimized, but that feeling has generally strengthened over time for me. The ability to remove stocks with low risk is the difference between a great character and a good character.

So, Pikachu isn't that good. He doesn't have killing aerials, or very good kill confirms (I'm uncertain about up-throw Thunder for various reasons). Saying that he sucks or that he's trash is probably a stretch, but he's not top tier or close to it.

He is a read-intensive character who needs to make reads to sustain damage output in advantage and to get the KO. He has the tools to make these reads with relatively low risk, as his aerials are fast and lagless enough with quirky hitboxes to allow for creativity/unpredictability; and then there's f-smash as a great (and strong) landing trap, lingering d-air to cover ledge options, edgeguarding, and a variety of other things. But as a read-based character, Pikachu is fundamentally inferior to characters who don't need reads to wrack up damage and kill, such as Sheik, ZSS, and Rosalina. These characters have far better matchup spreads due to the ease with which they end stocks.

Pikachu doesn't beat anyone by more than +1. His inability to secure stocks without a read means that opponents can always come back against him or get one good hit and turn the match around. Consider it an inverse Lucario effect. Matchups he theoretically wins or has been stated to win (ZSS? Ryu? Rosalina?) have proven to be winnable for the other side, if not even.

That said, the matchups he theoretically loses have never been that one-sided (Mario, Ness), with counterplay and close sets between top players (ESAM and whoever else), so he probably doesn't lose to anyone by more than -1 either. Which is enough to make the character good, probably top 20, but top 10 is too high.

Shaya

I don't understand the comparison to Meta Knight. Meta Knight is a baiting character who relies on fatal punishes. Pikachu is a pressure/mixup character who relies on reads. They are completely different.

And the reason that the shield safety patch didn't do much for Pikachu is that Pikachu's game has never been to play safely against shields. It's completely different from the Zero Suit case. It's a buff in the nominal sense of the word, sure, and it helped out some of his bad matchups, but overall he would have much preferred other things like additional range, a kill confirm, or higher damage output (none of which ZSS would have needed).

It's been far too long since I've seen this name in this thread. Welcome back, friend. <3

Really insightful and meaningful post to me. I've been thinking for some time now that Pikachu isn't top 10, and I think this is the final piece that slots it in for me. Like EL mentioned earlier, he's probably close to the top 10, but like other posters here have described his results don't push him in, and now I think the theory doesn't either. Which isn't to say he's bad, because I still think he's freakishly good (having that safe of an edge-guarding game is always relevant). I think I can finally sit comfortably with my impressions of him now.

If you had to place him Solid, can you give a rough position? Would he still be in 'high tier' for you?

 

[Jamurai]

I think all that really can be said for sure is:

is a cut above the rest (S tier)
and are top 5 currently

Then there is currently a tier or two definitely consisting of these characters, who seem solo viable, in some order which is primarily down to opinion:
and slightly less certainly

After that it's all completely down to opinion and personal experience as to who is where. Obviously most people have some agreement that some are better than others eg. Falcon is above average, but we have characters like Greninja, Lucario and Ike who vary wildly in people's lists going from top 20 to bottom 15.

I very much agree with SolidSense, Pika isn't that good a character. Being in top 5 in the 4BR tier list doesn't make much sense to me, I don't feel like that's justified.

 

[bc1910]

I think all that really can be said for sure is:

is a cut above the rest (S tier)
and are top 5 currently

Then there is currently a tier or two definitely consisting of these characters, who seem solo viable, in some order which is primarily down to opinion:
and slightly less certainly

After that it's all completely down to opinion and personal experience as to who is where. Obviously most people have some agreement that some are better than others eg. Falcon is above average, but we have characters like Greninja, Lucario and Ike who vary wildy in people's lists going from top 20 to bottom 15.

No-one with any sense is listing any of these 3 in bottom 15 now. They are rarely listed outside top 25.

Even in Japanese lists where Ike and Greninja get shafted, they're usually well clear of bottom 15 and still above bottom 20.

I agree with your post as a whole though.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I think all that really can be said for sure is:

is a cut above the rest (S tier)
and are top 5 currently

Then there is currently a tier or two definitely consisting of these characters, who seem solo viable, in some order which is primarily down to opinion:
and slightly less certainly

After that it's all completely down to opinion and personal experience as to who is where. Obviously most people have some agreement that some are better than others eg. Falcon is above average, but we have characters like Greninja, Lucario and Ike who vary wildy in people's lists going from top 20 to bottom 15.

I very much agree with SolidSense, Pika isn't that good a character. Being in top 5 in the 4BR tier list doesn't make much sense to me, I don't feel like that's justified.

IMO, It's kind of hard to include Fox or Mario in Top 5.
Yeah, they're good, very good, but at top level, them winning or placing really high, like Top 3? Eeeeeeh, both charas have some really tough matchups that prevent them from going really high. Like, as soon as either Mario or Fox faces a Top Rosa or Top Sheik for Fox, everyone knows they're probably not going to win.
All of the other charas, i can see Top 5 & why they'd be Top 5. Villager most definitly has an America Problem, where no one is even close to the level Ranai reaches with the character, and even if he seemingly has some troublesome matchups, they all seem in the realm of doable vs a Top Player ( Rosa may be tougher than this )

 

[Man Li Gi]

DKWill has consistent losses to ZSS in bracket, that's more of a statement than just a set with one ZSS. The MU is likely more like 65:35 if anything.

DKWill hasn't faced many ZSS mains in bracket and loses to them too. Remzi and Nairo as of late are his losses to ZSS mains. Otherwise he wins. Also if Vex went outside Northeast America, our view on DK would change as I would say he plays a stronger DK. Also yah the ZSS mains XYZ (now known as XAV), Ned, Nicole, and Arma, have had close sets with me and I'm not even that great. I beat everyone except Ned. I highly doubt anyone truly knows those ZSS mains cuz Midwest hates to travel.

 

[arbustopachon]

So i decided to jump into the matchup list bandwagon and tried doing one for zard, don't mind too much the orders in each tier.

Spoiler

As you can see this is a pretty optimistic chart.

So out of the blonde trio... rosalina is not too bad. Zard has the tools (Dtilt, Ftilt and dash attack) to quickly get rid of luma, also Zard has an easy time catching rosa's landing thanks to our plethora of antiairs (Utilt, the revamped USmash, reverse Nair and Uair) and stellar run speed and skid animation. We can't afford to get juggled tho as once we are up in the air we get juggled to death.
Sheik and Zss are terrible matchups tho. Other notable painful matchups are the pits and Mk. Bayo is probably also pretty bad for us but she actually lets us play neutral so im not sure on that one.

As for not so bad matchups... the mario bros are not that bad. We get to abuse our disjoints and our superarmor plus we can escape their cheese rather reliably... i guess fox isn't that terrible either.

Also i never understood why people think DDD beats charizard, like yeah he outranges him n edgeguards him pretty reliably... but our cqc is so much better and we really don't struggle that much getting in against him...

I know this chart is a bit too optimistic so i would love to hear some feedback on it!

TLDR: Zard loses against the majority of the cast, but has a couple of "not that bad for a bottom tier character" against some relevant characters.

 

[DanGR]

I hear pikachu has a kill confirm in upthrow->pivot jump down-b, regardless of DI. That's a pretty massive meta advancement towards his kill potential, I'd say.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Also i never understood why people think DDD beats charizard, like yeah he outranges him n edgeguards him pretty reliably... but our cqc is so much better and we really don't struggle that much getting in against him...

CQC is kinda irrelevant if you're reliably out-ranged/out-poked with meaty disjoints, and that's something D3 actually succeeds at doing in this particular MU. Zard doesn't really have any tools to compromise D3 in the neutral (like 85% of the cast does) to the point where he needs to take unnecessary risks. He can sit back and play the patient counteroffensive. And, as you said, D3 can edgeguard him pretty well, so when the time comes and Zard is offstage, he's gonna have a hard time getting back. The same can't be said for Zard versus Dedede offstage, unfortunately; D3 is tenacious in recovery, with his multiple jumps and his auto-snapping armored Up-B. He can also make Zard respect his comeback offstage via Gordos, aerials, and the simple fact that he has more jumps (attrition).

Personally, though, I think the MU is either D3's slight advantage or even. They both abuse each other's disadvantaged states extremely well because they're both big bodies, and it isn't impossible for Zard to get in, just moderately difficult. Zard is also one of the few characters that can kill D3 outright off of a hitconfirm with a (sometimes fresh) kill move too, so there's that.

It's not a landslide by any stretch of the imagination.

Smooth Criminal

 

[AxelVDP]

I hear pikachu has a kill confirm in upthrow->pivot jump down-b, regardless of DI. That's a pretty massive meta advancement towards his kill potential, I'd say.

not exactly, it can cover the "no DI" + "in front of Pikachu DI" but it does not cover the "behind of Pikachu DI"
and I also believe it's somewhat character specific (I don't believe it works on characters with a small frame)
Esam talks about it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAZJbMo4AmM

 

[UberMadman]

So i decided to jump into the matchup list bandwagon and tried doing one for zard, don't mind too much the orders in each tier.

Spoiler

As you can see this is a pretty optimistic chart.

I'll say. Why does Charizard have an advantageous matchup against Bowser Jr.? Jr. has a positive matchup against pretty much all the heavies simply due to his juggle-based playstyle. They are absolute combo food for him, for the most part. He also struggles with the fact that Bowser Jr. has disjoints on pretty much his entire kit while also possessing better frame data overall.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'll say. Why does Charizard have an advantageous matchup against Bowser Jr.? Jr. has a positive matchup against pretty much all the heavies simply due to his juggle-based playstyle. They are absolute combo food for him, for the most part. He also struggles with the fact that Bowser Jr. has disjoints on pretty much his entire kit while also possessing better frame data overall.

Jr-Dorf is pretty even, since Dorf punishes Jr back pretty hard as well. Zard I'm less confident in my assessment of the MU but it doesn't feel lopsided.

 

[C0rvus]

Zard is good at the in and out of shield game, the RPS of Smash. Bowser Jr. isn't, so I can see it at least being even. Everyone juggles Zard hard. Jr isn't special in that regard; it's a given in every matchup when you play Charizard. Also I feel like Ness/Zard is even, but that's just me.