Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

A little late...

Cloud loses to Sheik, but I don't think it's one-sided. Zero Suit can be difficult. Sonic is seemingly difficult (from what I've seen, but I haven't seen it played out at top level). Everything else is a lot of smooth sailing through common characters but I can see him requiring match up knowledge to handle everything in the cast.

Bayo match up seems pretty chill (personally not too fearful, but I think having a long range/tether grab is better), she does have good edge guarding tools against him (easier than most). Cloud doesn't mind a slow paced shieldey-grabby thingy at high percent and is insanely dangerous to her health with not too much risk (bar being at the ledge or getting roofied) the rest of the time; limit Cloud is seemingly always at an advantage. Overall I don't think she's been designed to beat swordies anyway (Roy's probably not our boy here but otherwise....).

As an aside, IMO
Study these match ups all day every day, can't go wrong (also applies to who you should main):*
Also spend at least half as much time studying these, but thrice as much if someone good mains them nearby:
Kidnap a main of one of these until you understand them; their lives are going to get a lot harder:

Study them now so they won't be a[s much of a] problem later:


* until further notice, much FoTM, OP Riot Plz Nerf, Wow, #Paying2Win, TOO GOOD TO BE LEGAL IN SOCAL (for a little bit until logic~)
"See that grab whiff? It's the $5.99 frame glitch " I heard a guy lost grand finals at Ktar because of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy5QZKdiI9o Dunno if this has been posted here. Yay, no more patches!

In all seriousness, if this is useful and becomes a problem, it will go under the no stalling clause, same as Corrin's grab glitch.

That's a pretty clear cut stalling in my eyes and although rulesets don't commonly mention a stalling rule, TOs shouldn't fear to call this out - it's one of those archaic laws that should still apply when it's an issue (e.g. j-walking) .
Hopefully there wouldn't be ignorance on the issue if it ever occurred in tournament.

 

[Otterz]

I think Meta Knight is better then a good number of those A tiers.

If I could rearrange just the A tier it would be:

 

[Yikarur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy5QZKdiI9o Dunno if this has been posted here. Yay, no more patches!

In all seriousness, if this is useful and becomes a problem, it will go under the no stalling clause, same as Corrin's grab glitch.

It's absolutely impracticable and probably even easily beatable by most characters (resulting in Vilagers death).
But it's obviously stalling and not allowed in any serious ruleset.

 

[Luco]

bc1910

Ness has a clear -2 in Rosalina, but I don't believe Sheik to be a -2 for him. FOW beat Rain's Sheik at EVO and also beat Wizzrobe and Vinnie's Sheiks more recently at G3 (forcing Vinnie to use Rosa instead actually). Actually Sheik has been the one consistently showing herself to be beatable for Ness. We definitely still lose to her (Shaky lost to VoiD at G3 as well) but it's not really comparable at all.

 

[Mario766]

Honestly Ike can belong in the kidnap group. Once people really understand the MU Ike's weaknesses become more prevalent.

 

[Smog Frog]

good list for matchup prioritization but i have a few issues with it:
taking priority over . are those 2 matchups somehow more difficult to learn compared to the other 2? in particular you should spend time on if only because luma is bizarre.

is not enough of a threat to compel someone to learn the matchup?

i mean i could be missing the point entirely but it just seems bizarre to me.

 

[Megamang]

I think the list is weighted towards success in a tournament and thus Shaya has posted strong, frequently occuring characters. Rosaluma is strong, but for some reason not so popular. And in my experience, skilled Rosas are even more rare, as new players see her as appealing to crush their friends but don't truly grasp the nuance of playing her. Thus you are more likely to be eliminated by a Cloud or MK than a Sonic or Rosa. Although I do see a lot of Sonics in my area, he is also a popular new player pick and also less likely to be skilled.

 

[Shaya]

Honestly Ike can belong in the kidnap group. Once people really understand the MU Ike's weaknesses become more prevalent.

Tends to apply to any singular main of a character played well. Once you have them down pat you're likely not to receive an upset by a hyper majority of any other.
But those characters are a bit more common and do require some proactive studying to keep up with (maybe not so much DK).

good list for matchup prioritization but i have a few issues with it:
taking priority over . are those 2 matchups somehow more difficult to learn compared to the other 2? in particular you should spend time on if only because luma is bizarre.

is not enough of a threat to compel someone to learn the matchup?

i mean i could be missing the point entirely but it just seems bizarre to me.

Well, if you have to worry about one, you are required to study thrice as much. When a degree of mastery comes into Sonic/Rosa it's a lot different to just understanding how those character's tools (however obnoxious they are) work. Those former two are a lot easier to pick up at this stage and are being seen more commonly.

Greninja is a lot harder to pick up, is as rare as hen's teeth, and if you don't consider our lovely frog contingency here aren't actively on most player's radars.

 

[FullMoon]

Is Mewtwo even common enough to be worth of mention in that list? I thought he had a pretty small playerbase.

 

[Y2Kay]

Is Mewtwo even common enough to be worth of mention in that list? I thought he had a pretty small playerbase.

He's threatening enough to warrant some learning. He's very good, strong, and requires some knowledge of the matchup to win well.

He's definitely the sleeper to watch out for now.

(If you don't believe, remember Nairo lost to a Mewtwo just a little while ago)

 

[UberMadman]

Is Mewtwo even common enough to be worth of mention in that list? I thought he had a pretty small playerbase.

For now. But those who do play him are already starting to get results, and they will probably increase in number as more people pick up the character, which is what I believe Shaya means by "so they won't be as much of a problem later."

 

[Shaya]

Is Mewtwo even common enough to be worth of mention in that list? I thought he had a pretty small playerbase.

He may be, later.
I doubt you have a competent toon link within your tectonic plate either. I know I don't.

In the past I think the most common issue brought up with Mewtwo would be his weight.
Hilariously now, I think the only thing I see going wrong for this character (he's still yet to win much of anything) is how easy it is to kill yourself.
So until I see mewtwo's stop bouncing off ledges to their deaths, I'm going to assume this character wants to and is capable of murdering everyone and take no prisoners, he's just super kawaii clumsy.
I've seen a lot of anticlimatic but otherwise good showings of Mewtwo from Abadango, RichBrown and local shindigs (I like this character too btw, he plays very similar to Marth *shock and horror*). But they all end the same way .
Blue is doing great as well and takes the title of least amount of streamed SDs from any Mewtwo I've seen.

Considering he was widely considered a close-to-bottom tier before, he's likely to have the rockiest ride to appreciation out of anyone else.

 

[FullMoon]

He may be, later.
I doubt you have a competent toon link within your tectonic plate either. I know I don't.

Actually one of Brazil's best players plays Toon Link lol

 

[Shaya]

Actually one of Brazil's best players plays Toon Link lol

In tectonic plates areas which are most geologically active then; best move to Chile
a shake up everyone felt, the biggest splashes. . .

My use of "you" there wasn't that personal though (you probably got that though )

 

[19_]

Blue is doing great as well and takes the title of least amount of streamed SDs from any Mewtwo I've seen.

I''d like to point out that Blue switched off SONIC for Mewtwo and then got BETTER RESULTS because of it.

There is definitely a reason to play a character if said character can help you place higher in tournament.

 

[Charoite]

Right now maybe, but the buffs of the 1.1.3 patch are making effects, so players who mained mewtwo before 1.1.3 are now getting results( mew square, rich brown, blue ).

But in reality is that players still think that mewtwo is a bottom to low tier character and they dont take the matchup seriously, because lol weight and big body, chances are that if you fight a mewtwo late in the bracket and you dont know the matchup then probably you will be defeated before adapting to the character.

Mewtwo will be a threat(well he is already), saying that he got the treatment is misleading, he got more of a treatment

 

[Sonicninja115]

I''d like to point out that Blue switched off SONIC for Mewtwo and then got BETTER RESULTS because of it.

There is definitely a reason to play a character if said character can help you place higher in tournament.

I find that rather ironic. As Mewtwo is only going to get to top of mid/bottom of high at best. He is good, but the top 40 are good, and the top 15 are really good.

Nakat made a video were he listed Mewtwo as one of the most underrated characters as well. (He also said jigglypuff)

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah Blue told me he swapped because Mewtwo has the threatening and devastating power that Sonic really lacks.

Very interesting

 

[RosalinA]

I still believe that with all the buffs, Mewtwo is still below both Lucario and Greninja, but that's just me.

 

[Nobie]

Yeah Blue told me he swapped because Mewtwo has the threatening and devastating power that Sonic really lacks.

Very interesting

To elaborate, in an interview Blue mentioned that Mewtwo's kill power forces the opponent to play differently at higher percents, whereas the counterplay to Sonic is pretty much the same at 15% or 150%.

 

[Megamang]

Thank god sonic doesn't have a super strong bthrow anymore.


Speaking of MewTwos, Rich Brown doing well rn http://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming


Sonicmega fraudulent

 

[Das Koopa]

on the subject of Pikachu's tier placement

ESAM's placements at Majors (200+ Entrants/Nationals)

Final Battle: 5th
CEO 2015: 5th
EVO 2015: 7th
Smash Con: 2nd
Paragon LA: 13th
The Big House 5: 9th
Tipped Off 11: 2nd
Genesis 3: 13th

I feel like this sort of indicates that people figured Pikachu out

It really makes me wonder why Pika's 5th on the list when the frontman for Pikachu players clearly has trouble in skill-pool heavy tournaments. ESAM's good, mind you, I just wonder about Pikachu being Top 10 at this point. Even though I haven't jumped aboard the hype train for Bayonetta (especially given Marss' performance at KTAR the other day and how many Bayonettas fell off) she's still probably Top 10 and as time goes on characters like Mario and Pika seem to drop.

 

[Strong-Arm]

What are the current thoughts on Link?

 

[Ffamran]

I'm kind of curious as to what Limit specials do with witch time.

Like, does Limit Crosh Slash still go so fast that it can hurt her?

Does Limit Climhazard go up at a fast enough rate that Bayo can't easily catch up in time for a good punish?

Hmm...

This requires some testing.

Re-quote! Well, here's an example of what happens... Since Limit Break Cross Slash is "one move" or one input, Cloud goes through the entire animation... with his I-frames, but those are only during the first slash, so I guess people really need to learn with punish with Bayonetta.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Side Smash, huh? It looked like her arm got caught in the LBCS and considering her Smashes' low priority... yeah... Maybe it would have been a better idea to Up or Down Smash instead... or just go for some other safer, lower reward punish.

 

[Browny]

He may be, later.
I doubt you have a competent toon link within your tectonic plate either. I know I don't.

In the past I think the most common issue brought up with Mewtwo would be his weight.
Hilariously now, I think the only thing I see going wrong for this character (he's still yet to win much of anything) is how easy it is to kill yourself.
So until I see mewtwo's stop bouncing off ledges to their deaths, I'm going to assume this character wants to and is capable of murdering everyone and take no prisoners, he's just super kawaii clumsy.
I've seen a lot of anticlimatic but otherwise good showings of Mewtwo from Abadango, RichBrown and local shindigs (I like this character too btw, he plays very similar to Marth *shock and horror*). But they all end the same way .
Blue is doing great as well and takes the title of least amount of streamed SDs from any Mewtwo I've seen.

Considering he was widely considered a close-to-bottom tier before, he's likely to have the rockiest ride to appreciation out of anyone else.

Ah this annoys me so much

Every instance of Mewtwo players 'bouncing' off the stage was entirely their fault for trying to snap to the ledge from horizontal.

It is impossible to actually bounce off the stage if you teleport even slightly diagonal up into it. Personally I have never bounced off a ledge to my death in some ~1100 matches as Mewtwo on my console, only time I've SD'd was getting pineappled or lylat...ed.

If Mewtwo had sheiks recovery, all those instances of stage bouncing would happen to her as well. For some unknown reason, many Mewtwo players have an obsession with trying to sweetspot the ledge from horizontal which will kill you almost every time. You literally never see Palutena or Sheik players do this because they teleport up into the ledge, they learned long ago that a horizontal teleport = likely death.

 

[bc1910]

I still believe that with all the buffs, Mewtwo is still below both Lucario and Greninja, but that's just me.

He is still below them. This is very early days. Mewtwo is much better now, though. And to be honest I said from the start he wasn't that bad (kill throw, good damage output, amazing projectile to force the approach? Sign me up). Whether he's better than Lucas or Wii Fit remains to be seen but he has some good results under his belt.

Anyone treating him as a blanket low tier and not bothering to learn the MU is asking for trouble.

on the subject of Pikachu's tier placement

ESAM's placements at Majors (200+ Entrants/Nationals)

Final Battle: 5th
CEO 2015: 5th
EVO 2015: 7th
Smash Con: 2nd
Paragon LA: 13th
The Big House 5: 9th
Tipped Off 11: 2nd
Genesis 3: 13th

I feel like this sort of indicates that people figured Pikachu out

It really makes me wonder why Pika's 5th on the list when the frontman for Pikachu players clearly has trouble in skill-pool heavy tournaments. ESAM's good, mind you, I just wonder about Pikachu being Top 10 at this point. Even though I haven't jumped aboard the hype train for Bayonetta (especially given Marss' performance at KTAR the other day and how many Bayonettas fell off) she's still probably Top 10 and as time goes on characters like Mario and Pika seem to drop.

I shouldn't get too political but I'd put good money on Pika's placement being partly down to ESAM throwing his weight around. Bear in mind he himself probably voted Pikachu 2nd which inflates his position. I don't think the full scope of Pikachu's poor results compared to the other A-tiers has been considered, even (especially) by ESAM himself.

 

[Teshie U]

Ah this annoys me so much

Every instance of Mewtwo players 'bouncing' off the stage was entirely their fault for trying to snap to the ledge from horizontal.

It is impossible to actually bounce off the stage if you teleport even slightly diagonal up into it. Personally I have never bounced off a ledge to my death in some ~1100 matches as Mewtwo on my console, only time I've SD'd was getting pineappled or lylat...ed.

If Mewtwo had sheiks recovery, all those instances of stage bouncing would happen to her as well. For some unknown reason, many Mewtwo players have an obsession with trying to sweetspot the ledge from horizontal which will kill you almost every time. You literally never see Palutena or Sheik players do this because they teleport up into the ledge, they learned long ago that a horizontal teleport = likely death.

Never seen other teleports literally bounce away from the ledge like Mewtwo. Others just fail to snap, which doesnt usually result in death.

 

[LRodC]

Teleport bouncing off the stage is not an issue if you're careful about where you're teleporting to. If you're going up or diagonal, you should be fine, even if you're touching the stage. However, if you're teleporting horizontally into a stage lip, that's just asking for trouble.

I had issues with it originally, but once I learned and practiced teleport, it hasn't been a big problem. Only stages like Dream Land 64 or Lylat have really brought me problems originally, but that was more of a fault with me rather than the stages themselves.

Use a GCN or Classic Controller if you have to so that you have octagonal gates on your control sticks to make it easier. Also, practice the "bad" teleport angles and directions so that you know what not to do. You'll find that it's tougher to bounce off the edge than it is to grab it if you actually angle it the correct way.

It's overblown.

 

[Megamang]

Rich Brown was surviving to really high percentages often today. It seems like mewtwo's increased speed, combined with his range (especially fair) allows him to keep really safe, to the point he is outsurviving his heavier peers.

Then he died to Palutena U-throw and the chat went off with every throw is a kill throw on m2. Stigmas are hard to escape in this game, but watching Rich blow people up will get through to some people surely.

And then a megaman who really really liked leaf shield. Which is fine, but at the cost of every other move (even pellets! PELLETS!) it just looked bad. He died to a sheik eventually. As did a lot of people, because the Gfs started as sheik dittos (though they finished with some Mario action). But before then, the tournament was pretty diverse. And the shieks had close games, not only due to laziness. I guess what im saying is the finals being shiek dittos most of the time I turn on a stream is disheartening, but actually watching the games she seems more fallible than Brawl MK was. She has close matches on her way there, and for the sheiks that succeed there are many that fail. Just a random group of impressions as I watched these games.

 

[Browny]

Never seen other teleports literally bounce away from the ledge like Mewtwo. Others just fail to snap, which doesnt usually result in death.

Sorry I worded that completely wrong.

Part of me was thinking about the 'lips' on stages like omega windy hill and boxing ring which happens to palutena.

I meant that when you watch sheik players recover, they ALWAYS go low and angle up into the lip. If Mewtwo players recovered like sheik players they would never 'bounce' but if sheik players kept recovering like some Mewtwo players do, theyd end up going under the stage half the time and the other half they would land on stage.

 

[RosalinA]

He is still below them. This is very early days. Mewtwo is much better now, though. And to be honest I said from the start he wasn't that bad (kill throw, good damage output, amazing projectile to force the approach? Sign me up). Whether he's better than Lucas or Wii Fit remains to be seen but he has some good results under his belt.

Anyone treating him as a blanket low tier and not bothering to learn the MU is asking for trouble.

I know, and I don't think he's low tier, but low middle tier at least (although I don't see him being high tier). I did post my tier list on page 52 if you want to see where I personslly think he really stands.

 

[Radical Larry]

What are the current thoughts on Link?

The general (misconceived and hypocritical) response is that Link is a low tier character; people within the last thread and the thread before boasted that Link was a solid middle tier character, but their hypocrisy came into view after they started agreeing that Link was a lower low tier character when Link just hasn't had the results or the representation to even show what he's really got outside locals; no one knows exactly where Link would ever be, but my thoughts and my opinions are that Link is deserving of the pure center of the tier list, around the 22-27 spots.

Unlike what people believe, Link may be the only character who can actually beat in an MU with a 60:40 at best, but 55:45 for Link at worst. Yeah, Sheik has speed and some powerful attacks, but Link actually has some kill power and combo ability that can actually pressure Sheik, who can't really kill him all that early and would need to resort to horizontal KOs against Link. Then there's , who Link can actually dominate against if given the proper time and given that Link just starts grabbing and multi-hitting Ryu without end. Jab > Jab 2 > Spin Attack works wonders against Ryu, especially if Ryu goes for FA. If Ryu's sent off stage, that spells death for him because Link can perform one single F-Air or D-Air and it's over. Go under the stage? Link can D-Air stage spike Ryu. Link can beat Ryu's projectiles, beat Ryu's rush in options and counterattack anything Ryu can get. In this MU, Link shouldn't be the one who should be worried about anything; Ryu should be worried about Link rushing in on him and getting quite a lot off of him. The only things that would help Ryu are his Shoryu setups, but if he misses one Shoryu on Link, it can be over quickly. Ryu can't afford to make even the tiniest mistake on Link, or else there may be an instant 30% to 80% string or even death. Link can also just keep Ryu out with his disjointed moves and has combo setups with his N-Air or potential pressure to put on Ryu with his D-Smash and Spin Attack.

What does Ryu have against Link other than U-Tilt, D-Tilt and Shoryuken? Probably nothing but trying hard to get a combo off his attacks, which can be predicted and punished. Link can be a threat if done perfectly.

But seeing as people would more likely base Link's performance to For Glory players instead of other players, there's no reason they'd be hypocrites and rank him low. And I know who you hypocrites are; if you're just going to refute your words on a character when they finally get a tier position, then just don't put an argument up beforehand.

I have some honestly high opinions about Link that other people don't. Link's good, but I guess people would rather choose a character who's more brain dead than a character that can actually be beneficial to them once they give the time to actually master them. Oh, no, but we're lazy, we certainly wouldn't have time to master a character when we can just go for the obvious character who will get us money despite being so boring to play as. That's sheer idiocy and it's no wonder why the meta is still highly in its infancy. I'd rather have a meta where people actually tried ALL of the characters instead of spearheading and forcing the top 20 down our throats. And I'll be honest, some positions don't ever make sense. Cloud's position for example doesn't make sense; he's a character who can be beat by opponents who are considered low tier, and people haven't found that out? Popularity booms are a thing until they go into a bust, I guess. We'll soon be seeing Cloud lower than he is right now, but it's safe to assume he's going to be 30th at lowest.

...I don't understand this backwards competitive scene sometimes...

 

[Eugene Wang]

The general (misconceived and hypocritical) response is that Link is a low tier character; people within the last thread and the thread before boasted that Link was a solid middle tier character, but their hypocrisy came into view after they started agreeing that Link was a lower low tier character when Link just hasn't had the results or the representation to even show what he's really got outside locals; no one knows exactly where Link would ever be, but my thoughts and my opinions are that Link is deserving of the pure center of the tier list, around the 22-27 spots.

Unlike what people believe, Link may be the only character who can actually beat in an MU with a 60:40 at best, but 55:45 for Link at worst. Yeah, Sheik has speed and some powerful attacks, but Link actually has some kill power and combo ability that can actually pressure Sheik, who can't really kill him all that early and would need to resort to horizontal KOs against Link. Then there's , who Link can actually dominate against if given the proper time and given that Link just starts grabbing and multi-hitting Ryu without end. Jab > Jab 2 > Spin Attack works wonders against Ryu, especially if Ryu goes for FA. If Ryu's sent off stage, that spells death for him because Link can perform one single F-Air or D-Air and it's over. Go under the stage? Link can D-Air stage spike Ryu. Link can beat Ryu's projectiles, beat Ryu's rush in options and counterattack anything Ryu can get. In this MU, Link shouldn't be the one who should be worried about anything; Ryu should be worried about Link rushing in on him and getting quite a lot off of him. The only things that would help Ryu are his Shoryu setups, but if he misses one Shoryu on Link, it can be over quickly. Ryu can't afford to make even the tiniest mistake on Link, or else there may be an instant 30% to 80% string or even death. Link can also just keep Ryu out with his disjointed moves and has combo setups with his N-Air or potential pressure to put on Ryu with his D-Smash and Spin Attack.

What does Ryu have against Link other than U-Tilt, D-Tilt and Shoryuken? Probably nothing but trying hard to get a combo off his attacks, which can be predicted and punished. Link can be a threat if done perfectly.

But seeing as people would more likely base Link's performance to For Glory players instead of other players, there's no reason they'd be hypocrites and rank him low. And I know who you hypocrites are; if you're just going to refute your words on a character when they finally get a tier position, then just don't put an argument up beforehand.

I have some honestly high opinions about Link that other people don't. Link's good, but I guess people would rather choose a character who's more brain dead than a character that can actually be beneficial to them once they give the time to actually master them. Oh, no, but we're lazy, we certainly wouldn't have time to master a character when we can just go for the obvious character who will get us money despite being so boring to play as. That's sheer idiocy and it's no wonder why the meta is still highly in its infancy. I'd rather have a meta where people actually tried ALL of the characters instead of spearheading and forcing the top 20 down our throats. And I'll be honest, some positions don't ever make sense. Cloud's position for example doesn't make sense; he's a character who can be beat by opponents who are considered low tier, and people haven't found that out? Popularity booms are a thing until they go into a bust, I guess. We'll soon be seeing Cloud lower than he is right now, but it's safe to assume he's going to be 30th at lowest.

...I don't understand this backwards competitive scene sometimes...

Alright. I'm listening. How does Link get ahold of Sheik in the first place, and avoid getting sliced by a million dagger slashes while he's at it?

 

[HoSmash4]

Why do Greninjas think Sheik vs greninja is blocking their viablity? Like what in the matchup stops greninja from winning it?

 

[warionumbah2]

Some made a MU chart for Greninja, which i find interesting.

https://twitter.com/consomme_5/status/699561816452517888

 

[MistressRemilia]

Why do Greninjas think Sheik vs greninja is blocking their viablity? Like what in the matchup stops greninja from winning it?

If i had to take a guess, it'd probably because of Greninja's inability to fight Sheik back accordingly.
Let me explain, we can agree that Greninja doesn't rly have the fastest aerials out there, nor good Out of shield game. With that in mind, i can probably see Greninja struggle Sheik's almighty Fair in itself.
Edgeguarding is an area where Gren shines a bit too, but Sheik's status of near unedgeguardable removes that quality.
He's probably not that bad at dealing with needles, but i can't really say, i don't know how good being above Sheik is for Greninja, or if his landing options are that good, so i'm not going to carve deeper into that subject.
Weight properties probably don't help Greninja either, he probably gets combo'd quite a lot by Sheik.

That's all i can provide really, FullMoon will surely tell you more about that MU, though.

 

[bc1910]

Some's MU spread is odd. Especially with regard to characters like Mario whom Greninja has a good record against in bracket. A character with that many disadvantageous MUs probably wouldn't have gotten top 8 at multiple Umeburas.

Why do Greninjas think Sheik vs greninja is blocking their viablity? Like what in the matchup stops greninja from winning it?

Because the results trend suggests it. Greninja is usually eliminated by double Sheik in bracket. His results are strong at tourneys with an absence of (good) Sheik players.

 

[Yikarur]

Because the results trend suggests it. Greninja is usually eliminated by double Sheik in bracket. His results are strong at tourneys with an absence of (good) Sheik players.

Do you have any source to back this claim up?

 

[Luco]

Because representation directly affects an understanding of that character's potential Larry. Ness had a period of not being seen in top 8 for a while before our most recent batch of tournaments. Suddenly his perception went from top 10 to top 15 because "counters", but representation affects that, and it's not a big leap in logic to understand why:

We know players playing low tier characters that move to high tier characters generally do a lot better. Not all of our top players now are top players from previous smash games. If a character is being used by players and can't get results that similar skilled players can get using characters higher-tiered than them, then it's understandable that this character just won't be seen as good as them until results prove otherwise. And until that happens, you probably shouldn't try to change the status quo by theory alone.

If that sounds clunky, let me use Ness as an example because he's actually a great example of this.

Back in Brawl, Ness was a low tier character. Most of his top players saw niche success in mid tier tournaments or sometimes placing unusually high at nationals, but for the most part he couldn't obtain the results other characters could (because CGs and all that). It wasn't really any use to argue that Ness back then was better than he was on the tier list because it obviously didn't help him enough to get results, now did it?

Smash 4 hits. Almost the exact same top players using Ness in Brawl kept using Ness in smash 4. And suddenly Shaky and FOW are regularly getting 1sts at locals and top 8's at nationals. The results aren't conclusive proof but are incredibly significant indicators that the Ness of smash 4 is far better relative to its cast than Brawl Ness was to its cast. It is fair to argue that certain theory factors are supporting this success, and then when Ness had his little absence from top 8, people needed reasons why, and the theory seemed to support the results and Ness went to top 15 instead of top 10.

Link has no such success of the likes of those mid tiers that you want him to be as, and most of all, it makes sense that people's opinions of Link have dropped over time. The vast majority of this community use trends in results to form and substantiate their theory and not the other way around.

This is why people keep telling you to prove it, Larry. This is why people aren't going to believe you anytime soon. To have any credibility in an argument you need to back your theory up with evidence. That's how debate works. You can sit back and tell us you're just trolling, non-serious and won't be serious ever but then why would you post? No, I don't believe you. I think you have a lot of heart and a lot of passion, I just want to see that used in the right way, and not the way that will have you walking away from smash forever because 'people just didn't listen to you.'

It sucks that someone you're emotionally invested into isn't as high on a list as you want. I know that feeling. It feels cheating and frustrating, even though logically you know it's just a character on a list. But back when I walked into the smash scene, the meta was set in bloody stone, and I was futilely moving against a rock thrice heavier than the one you're trying to push now. There is power to change. Either be part of the change, or show the people that change, or calmly wait for that change. Raging against the rock that is the way this player base operates isn't the right way to get what you want, and that goes for larger things too, like society. But you can do something, and that's what I'm trying to tell you here.

 

[Jams.]

Ah this annoys me so much

Every instance of Mewtwo players 'bouncing' off the stage was entirely their fault for trying to snap to the ledge from horizontal.

It is impossible to actually bounce off the stage if you teleport even slightly diagonal up into it. Personally I have never bounced off a ledge to my death in some ~1100 matches as Mewtwo on my console, only time I've SD'd was getting pineappled or lylat...ed.

If Mewtwo had sheiks recovery, all those instances of stage bouncing would happen to her as well. For some unknown reason, many Mewtwo players have an obsession with trying to sweetspot the ledge from horizontal which will kill you almost every time. You literally never see Palutena or Sheik players do this because they teleport up into the ledge, they learned long ago that a horizontal teleport = likely death.

I'd imagine the reasoning behind this is to avoid the 2 frame ledge snap vulnerability. Snapping the ledge from above or horizontally makes teleport recoveries much safer (it really benefits all recoveries, but teleports generally benefit more due to having smaller/no hitboxes, having predictable ledge snap timing, and having more freedom of movement). At a high level, Sheik players will often use the Vanish movement before the explosion to move above the ledge and then teleport downward to avoid the 2 frame. They don't always teleport from below the ledge.