Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

lol?

Ahh... windboxes... this reminds me of when GimR's Mr. Game & Watch killed with Uair's windbox: https://youtu.be/UERJkNBqRW8?t=226.

Anyway, and this is going to sound hypocritical with the sentence I just posted above, but could we all cut back on the more spammy, social posts like the reaction links, images, and gifs? Witty one-liners are somewhat okay if they tie back into the topic like how there's so many characters we will probably forget a random character who's potentially high tier, but even then... eh... try to stay on topic or add to it like if you post a reaction gif, but also post why you don't think so, why you feel something is blah, etc., that's much, much better than only a reaction gif.

Edit: Forgot about this, but with Witch Twist not being a guaranteed setup after the first one, Bayonetta can put herself in precarious situations like what Rikkhan posted... There's another one where Corrin uses Counter Surge because of that... I'll try to find the video.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Happens during the opening of this match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG2MC1OE64Y, so it doesn't kill (since it missed) and then it happens again, but this time, it's fatal: https://youtu.be/ZG2MC1OE64Y?t=73.

 

[Kofu]

The video above is the power of Frame 2-8 windbox on G&W Up+B.

Can't wait for people to lab out windows for this~~~~

I mainly use it to lay waste to the Mother boys' recovery (though it IS possible to redirect it in some cases) and to cut short various combos for example Mario can't get more than two UTilts, if he tries to follow by jumping he'll be carried skyward. I guess I ought to use it more for other combos.

 

[Man Li Gi]

My reaction to that

Must resist.....making a Fine Bros joke......its so hard.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I wish I knew. I enjoy zoning, item game is a bonus. But I also like mixups and strong footsies, which I suppose necessitates a decent grab. I have a much easier time finding mains in other games. Perhaps its because traditional neutral isn't present in Smash. It's more about pressing your best button and running around than mind games and microspacing.

In BlazBlue, I love Amane. That strong zoning, backed by his unique chip damage focused drill moves and mobility makes him very engaging and fun to play. He is however, a low tier. Corrin strikes me as a decently close parallel, actually.

During the SFV beta, I played R. Mika, though when the game comes out proper I intend to shop around.

At the same time, I also enjoy applying pressure, darting around and ambushing. Or slowly moving in and inciting fear with the threat of big damage. I'm pretty flexible. Or perhaps indecisive is the word. How can people key in on a single playstyle? Mine seems to change at the hour.

ō_ô

Footsies are still present. It's just different. Retreating aerials are beaten by walking forward/projectiles, approaching aerials are beaten by shield grab/OOS, neutral aerials are beaten by OOS/projectiles/roll, doing nothing is beaten by mix ups, etc...

You just gotta think about it...

EDIT: A character like sheik is good for you. She DOES have the most options out of any character after all.

 

[R3D3MON]

C0rvus
It sounds like Peach would be a great character for you. Lots of footsies options with float, her aerials, and her d-tilt spiking people. She has turnips, and she has a rather decent grab and grab followups.
If you enjoy darting around and applying pressure, go for the good ol' falcon. He can also be used for many different playstyles because he is somewhat of an all-rounder character.
For moving in slowly and doing big damage, use Ganon lol. Just be prepared to make hard reads and guesses all the time (which can be incredibly difficult unless you are Ally or TheReflexWonder).

 

[Smog Frog]

just be a piece of **** like me and play

i mean going fast and having good buttons to press is literally what he is

 

[C0rvus]

I appreciate the advice, but I do not wish to further derail the thread. Let us discuss the meta!

I'm curious about Cloud. The dust has settled a bit, he is no longer the flavor of the week. Do we still think him a top threat? In playing him recently, I worry about his relevant matchups, susceptibility to gimps, and reliance on Limit. Sure he can camp to charge it, but plenty of characters give him hell for trying to do so.
Also, the Bayonetta MU seems pretty bad on paper. She can gimp you with minimal effort, her up tilt beats several aerial approaches, guns make charging annoying, and your lack of grab confirms and kill throws makes Witch Time always a potent threat. That said, big meaty sword and far superior mobility means Cloud has the chops to win, obviously. It's just very flimsy in my opinion. Then again, so is every MU involving Bayonetta.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I appreciate the advice, but I do not wish to further derail the thread. Let us discuss the meta!

I'm curious about Cloud. The dust has settled a bit, he is no longer the flavor of the week. Do we still think him a top threat? In playing him recently, I worry about his relevant matchups, susceptibility to gimps, and reliance on Limit. Sure he can camp to charge it, but plenty of characters give him hell for trying to do so.
Also, the Bayonetta MU seems pretty bad on paper. She can gimp you with minimal effort, her up tilt beats several aerial approaches, guns make charging annoying, and your lack of grab confirms and kill throws makes Witch Time always a potent threat. That said, big meaty sword and far superior mobility means Cloud has the chops to win, obviously. It's just very flimsy in my opinion. Then again, so is every MU involving Bayonetta.

I'm kind of curious as to what Limit specials do with witch time.

Like, does Limit Crosh Slash still go so fast that it can hurt her?

Does Limit Climhazard go up at a fast enough rate that Bayo can't easily catch up in time for a good punish?

Hmm...

This requires some testing.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm kind of curious as to what Limit specials do with witch time.

Like, does Limit Crosh Slash still go so fast that it can hurt her?

Does Limit Climhazard go up at a fast enough rate that Bayo can't easily catch up in time for a good punish?

Hmm...

This requires some testing.

It'll probably extend his I-frames on Blade Beam, Climhazzard, and Cross Slash like during air dodges if people manage to input it during Witch Time...

 

[HeavyLobster]

I appreciate the advice, but I do not wish to further derail the thread. Let us discuss the meta!

I'm curious about Cloud. The dust has settled a bit, he is no longer the flavor of the week. Do we still think him a top threat? In playing him recently, I worry about his relevant matchups, susceptibility to gimps, and reliance on Limit. Sure he can camp to charge it, but plenty of characters give him hell for trying to do so.
Also, the Bayonetta MU seems pretty bad on paper. She can gimp you with minimal effort, her up tilt beats several aerial approaches, guns make charging annoying, and your lack of grab confirms and kill throws makes Witch Time always a potent threat. That said, big meaty sword and far superior mobility means Cloud has the chops to win, obviously. It's just very flimsy in my opinion. Then again, so is every MU involving Bayonetta.

Cloud's core tools are simply too strong for him to really become irrelevant. He's strong enough to compete against anyone even if Bayo is unfavorable. He's also got more depth than similarly strong and easy to pick up characters like Mario and Ness thanks to the limit system. He'll always retain a presence even if the more casual Clouds move on.

 

[C0rvus]

I didn't mean for it to sound like I think Cloud isn't good. He's clearly got the sauce. Was just trying to gauge were he lies in the new meta. He's at least high tier. I recall some Japanese players putting him in top tier. Personally I don't see him as top 5 but my opinion holds little value compared to the likes of Komorikiri haha.

 

[DanGR]

You can't have only ~2-3 bad matchups and not be a top 5 character. You're all sleeping on Cloud.

 

[bc1910]

You can't have only ~2-3 bad matchups and not be a top 5 character. You're all sleeping on Cloud.

To be fair, 2-3 is pushing it (he loses badly to Sheik, pretty badly to Sonic and probably loses to Diddy and Fox) but frog's MU spread is super solid. I've seen respected mains of these characters suggest he beats Mario, Villager and Meta Knight, while there's high level evidence he beats Luigi. ZSS has been noted as even, potentially in his favour. He is probably Bayo's worst MU right now. We've just had Ness players (who swore blind that Ness beat Greninja, to the point the discussion got quite heated) in our discord chat suggesting they lose 45:55 and Greninja is one of their hardest MUs. IMO Ness is even but still interesting to hear this.

This is theory-tastic in some respects because a lot of the evidence is mid-level, but I'm inclined to believe there's something in it if multiple solid players are saying the same thing. Having benched Greninja for Bayo I was sure I wouldn't miss him for a while, but there are so many MUs where his tools give him a great edge.

Crucially, unlike many of the mid tiers, he feels like he's playing the same game as the top/high tiers.

I agree completely with @Emblem Lord's top 14 and tbh I don't see why Greninja isn't a contender for 15th. Results are improving, potential is there.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja has probably one of the best MU spreads in the game for a high tier, with losing matchups to only two, maybe three characters.

Unfortunately, these are all conveniently very dominant and common threats in this game. ()

Venia has beaten both Jtails and HelpR. these guys are both power-ranked s in New York.

Illusion (top Greninja in Texas) had a really close set with Megafox. That's about the best we got in terms of high level play for

Some has beaten KEN (high level japanese ) more than once. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems

So yeah, not too bad for

 

[Megamang]

I used Greninja as an answer to Mario and Doc and Luigi in my Pikachu maining days. He is a powerful character with great tools. His ftilt buff gave him a really solid poke for footsies. His d-tilt confirms into u-smash kills and is relatively quick and safe. His utilt has really great range, decent frame data, and confirms into uair kills when dtilt stops killing. If the opponent manages to avoid all this, his insane dashgrab can give him an uthrow kill as rage builds for both parties. All this is to say in a kill confirm centric meta he is in a solid place.

He is a character I only see moving up. Bayo being introduced gave him a much needed niche as a combo-escapist. (He had this, but bayo stresses its importance). He has mobility, which in most games and ESPECIALLY smash only gets more and more valuable as the general skill level rises. Though I don't believe in a 20XX where everyone is doing 50% footstool combos, I do believe greninja actually has viable footstool combos as his nair confirms into a footstool and its all rote memory from there, so I can actually realistically see a future where a nair leads into 50%+. He has swordsman smashes too, and a really cool swordsman fair which has crazy range and damage in exchange for bad startup, but bad startup can be greatly mitigated by good movement decisions. He has one of the better projectiles in the game. He has a really solid crawl, which Dabuz has shown us to be really good against ZSS. This character is really cool. I know this statement gets flak sometimes and can't be the only reason for his relative lack of repreasentation, but there was truly a time I was strongly considering him as a main but shiek just felt hopeless and I live in shiek central so it was pointless, very very sadly.

 

[Halifax?]

~~~~~~~~~~

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People keep mentioning how good Pikachu's matchups supposedly are but that seems based mostly on thin air.

Pikachu has a poor tournament record against Sheik to the point that it'd justify a -2 rating though a lot of people would argue that it's -1 [which I can agree with]. He also has clear losing records against Fox and Mario which is pretty bad to have. Claims that he beats ZSS and Rosalina have not proven true and there exists no data suggesting that Pikachu is better than even with Diddy Kong, Villager or MK.

And there's a reason why hardly any mid-tier character [or even below that] particularly fears Pikachu. He's just so ... beatable.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has probably one of the best MU spreads in the game for a high tier, with losing matchups to only two, maybe three characters.

Unfortunately, these are all conveniently very dominant and common threats in this game. ()

Venia has beaten both Jtails and HelpR. these guys are both power-ranked s in New York.

Illusion (top Greninja in Texas) had a really close set with Megafox. That's about the best we got in terms of high level play for

Some has beaten KEN (high level japanese ) more than once. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems

So yeah, not too bad for

I actually didn't know Venia had beaten Jtails. That's... kinda huge. Has it happened more than once?

istudying has a winning record vs the top Diddy in the Netherlands too. There's always the chance I'm letting personal bias sway me here. To be fair I went 2-1 vs a pretty good Diddy player last night, though I won the second game from a timeout.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know who the best Diddy in the NL is supposed to be but I'm pretty sure istudy is at least one level above him. Venia beating Jtails is probably the only result of that matchup that's representative.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Greninja did reasonably well against Diddy.

 

[Megamang]

Shurikans seem like they would cause diddy trouble. Though its frame data isn't great, ninja's fair also seems better than most at contesting diddy's. Diddy excels at pressuring shield, greninja prefers defense via mobility than shielding anyways due to his bad OOS options. Glide toss -> dtilt -> usmash is probably a super scary thing for diddy, rivaling his banana setups in efficacy and outpowering them neatly. Hydro pump in neutral is good damage over time, and could lead to a hairy situation for Diddy if something goes wrong. Greninja's juggles are probably super scary due to this, as his higher air mobility is good for tracking diddy, hydro pump upwards could hard punish monkey flip (this is theorycraft on my part, but it seems like 1+1 = 50 in terms of momentum in this game, so a hydro pumped monkey flip could send diddy flying + no damage means he can't do another). He can start the juggles with his crazy dashgrab to punish diddy landing from spaced aerials... Theres probably more, but these are the reasons I can think that it would go well for Greninja. Diddy just doesn't seem like the kind of character that gives him trouble.

 

[DunnoBro]

DunnoBro I figured you'd be the best person to address this.

Depends on the MU. In general you need to stay mobile to retain killing opportunities though, if you can gimp them though camping is optimal.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Pikachu is in a similar boat than Yoshi. A lot even MU's and some disadvantaged in the top tier area. (I don't think Pikachu beats Mario though, but with only 1 Top Pika representative who loses the MU because he's personally bad at it, it's "evidently" in Marios favor)
Pikachu can win every MU if the players skill is high enough.

Where in a tier list would a character be that has even MUs with the Top20?
or even MUs with everyone?
or at least an even MU with everyone but 3 out of Top10 ?

Personally, I think Pikachu is Top10, because you can beat everyone if you are good enough. But Pikachu has a high skill ceiling. But as long as Esam is the only Pikachu that does anything worthwhile with him, Pikachu should probably be placed outside of Top10.

 

[bc1910]

Shurikans seem like they would cause diddy trouble. Though its frame data isn't great, ninja's fair also seems better than most at contesting diddy's. Diddy excels at pressuring shield, greninja prefers defense via mobility than shielding anyways due to his bad OOS options. Glide toss -> dtilt -> usmash is probably a super scary thing for diddy, rivaling his banana setups in efficacy and outpowering them neatly. Hydro pump in neutral is good damage over time, and could lead to a hairy situation for Diddy if something goes wrong. Greninja's juggles are probably super scary due to this, as his higher air mobility is good for tracking diddy, hydro pump upwards could hard punish monkey flip (this is theorycraft on my part, but it seems like 1+1 = 50 in terms of momentum in this game, so a hydro pumped monkey flip could send diddy flying + no damage means he can't do another). He can start the juggles with his crazy dashgrab to punish diddy landing from spaced aerials... Theres probably more, but these are the reasons I can think that it would go well for Greninja. Diddy just doesn't seem like the kind of character that gives him trouble.

I agree with much of what you said. The issues with the MU rise IMO because the banana can seriously hamper Greninja's ground mobility. Dashing around and throwing shurikens carries more risk than it does in any other MU except maybe Sonic. In fairness Greninja has the 2nd fastest dash attack in the game in terms of total frames, making it easy and safe to pick up the banana. Once he's picked it up, shuriken zoning is reasonably simple. Though he has to be wary of Monkey Flip.

A very annoying quirk is that Greninja tosses the banana quite high up and many of Diddy's animations allow him to go under a banana tossed by Greninja at close or mid range, including his dash animation.

Greninja can keep up with Diddy in neutral, his advantage isn't quite as good but his disadvantage is better. It's the banana that muddies the water. If it wasn't for the banana I think Greninja would beat Diddy, though this goes for a few characters (not that many though, Diddy's basic neutral and damage output are good enough to shut characters down by themselves).

 

[Megamang]

Pika Stuff

The issue is pika's lack of a kill confirm or kill throw. I tried to play very defensive pika, but you have to win neutral so so much... Without a gimp, you struggle to really land a kill, they get rage, and your light weight compounds to make some really sad deaths. One misstep and you die so early. Against someone like Diddy this can be just landing wrong, banana into f-smash kills you crazy early when the monkey is at 150%, and the uthrow kills after that unless you are on a platform or also at 150%.

But, quick attack is an incredible incredible tool. Given a few frames gap, you basically can reset to neutral without risk, and you also have the chance of quickly gaining advantage by hitting a quick attack and starting a string or juggle. Pika can cover his approach with tjolt, which I think is really underrated. F-smash is crazy safe, only really an OOS projectile can punish it if you space it correctly, and it kills very early with the sweetspot which can hit at close range because it basically travels to its max distance, so it eats spotdodges. The closest thing pika has to a kill confirm is uthrow thunder stuff, but good DI can survive it, though it seems that it may be inescapable at certain percents with a certain tech that allows you to do a running thunder and have it still hit you. All these kills benefit from surprise, not so much MU inexperience surprise but literally like 'ah **** I got grabbed and u-thrown before I could react' surprise. Basically what im getting at, is I think aggressive pika may be more optimal than people think. Pure defense pika is... good at slowly slowly doing damage, but loses the killing game 5 to 1. Add gimping in many MUs and suffocating the opponent is the best way to get a kill. It really sucks the best characters aren't gimpable, because that would totally help pika by miles. Even if the 2 frame wasn't avoidable with the right tech, pika do much better vs shiek. Oh well.

 

[outfoxd]

Random question, but at what point fo you chalk up the results of your character being attributed to the exceptional nature of players and not due to hidden potential?

I have been playing Duck Hunt since Wii U launched, and have stubbornly grinded on despite only incremental improvements. I have managed to keep on because i know players like Yusan and Brood and to a lesser extent, ImHip can put in work. I would tell myself that if they can do it, i can too.

But recently I've given up and went to a Rosalina/Wario combo and while i haven't had greatly improved results yet, i feel far more equipped for competitive play. There's just the pangs of guilt i feel for giving up when some can still push forward.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Coming back on the G&W UpB/UpAir Windbox thingy, Bayo's not the only one who can suffer from this:

 

[Megamang]

Random question, but at what point fo you chalk up the results of your character being attributed to the exceptional nature of players and not due to hidden potential?

I have been playing Duck Hunt since Wii U launched, and have stubbornly grinded on despite only incremental improvements. I have managed to keep on because i know players like Yusan and Brood and to a lesser extent, ImHip can put in work. I would tell myself that if they can do it, i can too.

But recently I've given up and went to a Rosalina/Wario combo and while i haven't had greatly improved results yet, i feel far more equipped for competitive play. There's just the pangs of guilt i feel for giving up when some can still push forward.

First off, play the game in a way you enjoy. Don't feel guilt over the game in any way, though I understand the issue of character loyalty and success being opposing goals.


Your guilt signals you still have a connection to DHD. So keep him as a pocket! Surely there are MUs where he is useful. Play him in friendlies. You can keep improving your DHD game without grinding out every uphill battle. It all comes down to what you want to do. Worth mentioning is DHD has more going on constantly than Rosa, her skill is more passive and decision based rather than execution (Luma being a passive benefit) so feeling lazy is also natural.

Not telling you what to do, just my 2c. Hope it helps. If it makes you feel better, I'd rather play a Wario than a skilled DHD =B

 

[DunnoBro]

DHD's a bad pocket, too awkward and his good MUs are even more awkward. (Yoshi, Luigi, Villager, etc)

In general, characters that are all about edgeguard potential are bad secondaries because all those situations are specific to them.

 

[Megamang]

Well, on the bright side of that, you can only learn the edgeguarding/the entire MU for those specific characters which you use him as a pocket, overall reducing the knowledge you would need under your belt to utilize the character. I mostly suggest it because you are still linked/invested in the character, not so much as it as optimal.


DHD beats yoshi? I would have thought extreme weight and air mobility are DHD's weaknesses. Is it due to edgeguarding?

 

[Zeth444]

I appreciate the advice, but I do not wish to further derail the thread. Let us discuss the meta!

I'm curious about Cloud. The dust has settled a bit, he is no longer the flavor of the week. Do we still think him a top threat? In playing him recently, I worry about his relevant matchups, susceptibility to gimps, and reliance on Limit. Sure he can camp to charge it, but plenty of characters give him hell for trying to do so.
Also, the Bayonetta MU seems pretty bad on paper. She can gimp you with minimal effort, her up tilt beats several aerial approaches, guns make charging annoying, and your lack of grab confirms and kill throws makes Witch Time always a potent threat. That said, big meaty sword and far superior mobility means Cloud has the chops to win, obviously. It's just very flimsy in my opinion. Then again, so is every MU involving Bayonetta.

Im not sure about the Bayo match-up (no one is yet), but my theorycraft is that she isnt really hard for him (im not saying shes easy).
Most of ´s combos hits people up and what doesnt want is to be send offstage, and, if its true what M2K doesnt stop spamming on his twitter, DIng down-away should be enought to avoid her longer combos.
Of Course there is the witch time problem, which might nullify Dair becouse off its long lasting hitbox. On the other hand, if is above , it shouldnt be hard to bait WT just like you do with airdodges, then up-air har and keep mixing-up between ampty hops and up-air. One could argue that Bayo has D-air and Shoryuken ABK to land, but both of this moves are laggy and can be punished with dash attacks, grab or even Limit Cancel D-tilt if she Shoryuken ABKs too far from you (dont quote me on this last one, I have no idea is D-tilt is faster then Cloud´s running speed). Most of this options send the opponent above u, restarting the Up-air 50/50. Im sure that after 1-3 missed WT she will prefer to use airdodges then waste any more time ().
Lastly, there is ´s recovery issues. As I mentioned above, hits u up, so it shouldnt be a problem until u get to mid-hight percents when Bair/Nair hits u off stage (tho it shouldnt be hard for her to get u there). Using jumps and side-b (not as reliable) to delay ure up-b should be enought so u dont get stomped by D-Smash (it is too slow to e used on reaction) and so she cannot use WT reliably. Im not sure but I think snaping the ledge from slightly below might be enought to avoid d-tilt, dont know.
If u think this was an one sided theorycrafting, keep in mind that is my main and is a new character, of course I know a lot more (not everything, nor really THAT much, or else Id be a hight level proplayer) about him them about her. But, to be honest, I think ´s strength in this match-up is at abusing of ´s already existing flaws, by using d-tilt Nair to exploit his up-b and having WT as a reason to never use Weak Dair and Back hit Nair aginst her (thats actually a big deal, because Dair is not only a combo starter but a set-up for limit stuff).

PLEASE REMEMBER, THIS IS THEORYCRAFTING ONLY.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I wish I knew. I enjoy zoning, item game is a bonus. But I also like mixups and strong footsies, which I suppose necessitates a decent grab. I have a much easier time finding mains in other games. Perhaps its because traditional neutral isn't present in Smash. It's more about pressing your best button and running around than mind games and microspacing.

At the same time, I also enjoy applying pressure, darting around and ambushing. Or slowly moving in and inciting fear with the threat of big damage. I'm pretty flexible.

Speaking of Diddy Kong, I feel like his results are getting slightly worse because people are now comfortable enough with the matchup to not lose to Diddys who don't make full use of the characters versatility.

He's a great tourney character but if you're too linear with him you'll struggle. He's great at keeping stage control but once he loses it it can be tough to reset against certain popular tourney picks. He trades easily while never really winning trades. Throwing a banana peel is a big commitment now that people are learning to defend against it better, take away bad tosses and actually use it to confirm against Diddy.

For this reason staying unpredictable is mandatory as Diddy. Thankfully his ultra versatile kit is quite capable of this. Being able to play aggro, mid ranged micro spacing, zoning, bait and switch and a grab based game with one kit is great for a character who always needs to keep his opponent guessing to succeed at the top level. His speed, mobility jukes and item mixups are great for this too.

Doing the same thing over and over with Diddy gets predictable fast, and isn't a passable play style against good players. I think of him as the quintessential trickster character.

 

[Jaguar360]

Greninja has probably one of the best MU spreads in the game for a high tier, with losing matchups to only two, maybe three characters.

Unfortunately, these are all conveniently very dominant and common threats in this game. ()

Venia has beaten both Jtails and HelpR. these guys are both power-ranked s in New York.

Illusion (top Greninja in Texas) had a really close set with Megafox. That's about the best we got in terms of high level play for

Some has beaten KEN (high level japanese ) more than once. Maybe it's not as bad as it seems

So yeah, not too bad for

Some also beat Shogun's Fox at that tournament a few weeks ago, so there's that too.

The issue is pika's lack of a kill confirm or kill throw. I tried to play very defensive pika, but you have to win neutral so so much... Without a gimp, you struggle to really land a kill, they get rage, and your light weight compounds to make some really sad deaths. One misstep and you die so early. Against someone like Diddy this can be just landing wrong, banana into f-smash kills you crazy early when the monkey is at 150%, and the uthrow kills after that unless you are on a platform or also at 150%.

I dunno man, that U-throw/D-throw Thunder is good stuff. Especially since U-throw -> RAR Thunder is basically true unless they DI behind (which is more vulnerable to d-throw). Honestly, I think it's better than the Sheik D-throw 50-50. F-air -> U-smash and grab is also nice to have.

 

[Kofu]

I haven't seen this mentioned, even in the Bayonetta boards (it could be buried in their competitive discussion thread but I'm not looking through the whole thing just for this).

When held as long as allowed, each gun used in her Bullet Arts will do 5%. Obviously this depends on if the opponent is hit by the whole thing (NAir and UAir definitely aren't doing the full 5%). Usually she only uses one gun in a given direction. But DTilt's Bullet Arts employs too forward facing guns, meaning it'll do a max of 10%. Interesting design choice, probably made because Bullet Climax has a blind spot close to the ground.

TL;DR: don't let Bayonetta spam DTilt Bullet Arts against you, it does more damage than the rest.

 

[Smog Frog]

regarding witch twist:
do you take the knockback of the middle hits if you sdi out? i'm asking this because HOLY **** THOSE MIDDLE HITS ARE POWERFUL!

160 bkb 100 kbg on the 1st and 3rd middle hits. literally only held back by those hits doing 0.3%.

 

[Locke 06]

TL;DR: don't let Bayonetta spam DTilt Bullet Arts against you, it does more damage than the rest.

Definitely, but bullet arts are really weak as "projectiles". Dtilt bullet art starts on f20 and is a minimum 41f commitment shooting twice (18f recovery after the last bullet isn't bad on shield if they choose to block it even without shield stun).

This is comparable to Fox's laser (39f), but the biggest difference is that lasers go further, do more damage, and is backed up by Fox's cqc.

If you hold it, dtilt bullet art shoots max 20 times to do 10%, meaning each gun's shot does .25%. The minimum dtilt art extension shoots twice, making it do 1% whereas Fox lasers do 2 or 1.5% typically. Fox can also keep shooting, while you can shield bullet arts and come out of shield when she's in endlag.

Dtilt bullet art is decent, but it feels like it is time better spent doing other things like adjusting spacing. Against smarter players that I've faced extensively, I know I rarely use it except after a jab combo if I don't want to pursue them (playing vs Peach, Sheik, and Ike).

 

[Y2Kay]

I actually didn't know Venia had beaten Jtails. That's... kinda huge. Has it happened more than once?

Jtails kinda sorta SD'd game 1 but we take those.

Strangely this is a one time occasion, but I must mention that HelpR is a very strong Diddy from the area, and beat him so bad he switched characters. It was pretty nasty.

I'll also mention Venia's beaten MikeKirby and Vinnie before too, so yeah he's legit.

 

[Illuminose]

People keep mentioning how good Pikachu's matchups supposedly are but that seems based mostly on thin air.

Pikachu has a poor tournament record against Sheik to the point that it'd justify a -2 rating though a lot of people would argue that it's -1 [which I can agree with].

Not really. I'd say ZeRo makes most matchups look pretty bad regardless of whether they're actually bad because there's a skill differential. Despite ZeRo's excellent command of the matchup and arguable skill gap though, ESAM's still been able to take games off him and have relatively close sets, which is a feat not many other players can claim. For the other Sheik players ESAM has fought:

2-1 Vinnie
0-1 K9
1-0 Zex

It's...misleading to suggest that ESAM actually has a poor record against Sheik when you take ZeRo out of the equation. The matchup is not the problem, it is ESAM's mindset and habits that get exploited by ZeRo and this is blatantly obvious when they play.

He also has clear losing records against Fox and Mario which is pretty bad to have.

Mario is true, but Fox is not. ESAM is 2-0 vs Megafox and unless I'm missing a tournament (certainly not anything important) he's actually never lost to Larry's Fox in tournament; their only set was CEO with pre-patch Luigi against ESAM's Pikachu, which was a different matchup than current Luigi vs Pikachu.

Claims that he beats ZSS and Rosalina have not proven true

ESAM's still significantly positive record against Nairo and NickRiddle says otherwise for the Zero Suit matchup. As for Rosalina...he's currently 1-1 with Dabuz, which you can't draw conclusions from results on.

there exists no data suggesting that Pikachu is better than even with Diddy Kong, Villager or MK.

If all of these matchups are even that wouldn't be a strike against Pikachu... although both ZeRo and MVD believe that Diddy loses to Pikachu, having stated as such numerous times. ESAM hasn't fought any top Diddys at majors, so it's kind of hard to tell. Similarly he hasn't fought any top Villagers. His record vs MKs is relatively difficult to draw conclusions on too (1-1 Jband, 1-0 Abaknight, 0-1 Tyrant).

And there's a reason why hardly any mid-tier character [or even below that] particularly fears Pikachu. He's just so ... beatable.

Heavies (DK, Bowser, Ganon, etc)...Falcon...pretty much anyone that has a poor recovery or lacks quick options to deal with Quick Attack. I'm not going to claim to know all of Pikachu's obscure low/mid tier matchups but this claim is heavily unsubstantiated.

If you want to argue with results, please know the results you're talking about.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well, on the bright side of that, you can only learn the edgeguarding/the entire MU for those specific characters which you use him as a pocket, overall reducing the knowledge you would need under your belt to utilize the character. I mostly suggest it because you are still linked/invested in the character, not so much as it as optimal.

You can't just learn edgeguarding, you still need a solid neutral to set those up. That doesn't reduce extra knowledge in any way.

DHD beats yoshi? I would have thought extreme weight and air mobility are DHD's weaknesses. Is it due to edgeguarding?

DHD's range and landing coverage make it hard for yoshi to not make mistakes. And DHD makes it hell for him to return to neutral.

 

[David Viran]

ESAM's still significantly positive record against Nairo and NickRiddle says otherwise for the Zero Suit matchup. As for Rosalina...he's currently 1-1 with Dabuz, which you can't draw conclusions from results on.

Esam and nairo's set count with pika vs zss is 2-1 in esams favor. And technically if you count games nairo is up on esam 6-5 in that MU.

 

[AxelVDP]

regarding witch twist:
do you take the knockback of the middle hits if you sdi out? i'm asking this because HOLY **** THOSE MIDDLE HITS ARE POWERFUL!

160 bkb 100 kbg on the 1st and 3rd middle hits. literally only held back by those hits doing 0.3%.

iirc Weight Based Knockback does not have KBG (it's listed because that's the default value or something)
so it's "just" 160 bkb (which is still a lot)