Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[rm88]

Pretty sure people will eventually figure her out and she'll drop quite a bit.
Still Top Tier, but not as dominant or broken as people want to believe she is.

That's what I want to believe, too. But jeez, I don't appreciate that the last thre DLC characters give my mains such a difficult time

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure people will eventually figure her out and she'll drop quite a bit.
Still Top Tier, but not as dominant or broken as people want to believe she is.

She is not dropping below high tier with such mindless edgeguarding and a top 5 disadvantage state.

I can take Fox over Mario.

**** Mario

 

[Illuminose]

I have trouble believing that Fox is better than Mario or Pikachu. The matchups are not there, especially given how tough a time Fox has against Sheik and Rosalina (both of those mus are pretty solidly 60-40). His Pikachu matchup is solidly even, not in his favor. ESAM vs Larry is a player block and not a matchup problem.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm watching KTAR. As a brief aside, I play Lucas a bit and might decide to sink my time into him. Would anybody familiar with the matchup say that Lucas/Meta Knight is a 50:50 matchup? Based on watching the VOD, it seems like both characters have trouble getting their strings on one another, turning it into a bit of a slugfest.

When it comes to MK, Tristate and MDVA are some of the worst regions in NA to look into. The representation is very poor, apparently the MK did down throw to shuttle loop when Lucas was at 140% missing by half a stage length.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Tristate and MdVa are beast at ZSS though

 

[ARISTOS]

I have trouble believing that Fox is better than Mario or Pikachu. The matchups are not there, especially given how tough a time Fox has against Sheik and Rosalina (both of those mus are pretty solidly 60-40). His Pikachu matchup is solidly even, not in his favor. ESAM vs Larry is a player block and not a matchup problem.

But is simply not that great.

People point and say he has great MUs- ok, then why does this character not show up? The character is not impressing anywhere.

I can believe is better than , though I think the latter is a bit more consistent. Fox's weight and gravity means every little mistake gets compounded exponentially harder than almost any other top tier.

 

[R3D3MON]

Are there any videos of matches between Larry Lurr and Ally? From what I remember Ally consistently has beaten various high-level fox players, like Ksev and NAKAT. I think watching matches between the top-level players of each respective character could show a better picture of who has the advantage in the MU.

P.S. I personally have no idea who has the advantage in MU of fox vs. mario. I see both characters having very devastating counter plays and options against each other.

 

[ぱみゅ]

But is simply not that great.

People point and say he has great MUs- ok, then why does this character not show up? The character is not impressing anywhere.

The thing is, his matchup spread is pretty good.
I mean, he doesn't have a lot of representation, and I'd agree that results alone Pikachu would be mid tier probably, but when you see his top player getting far while committing thousands of mistakes and having apparent mental/player blocks, you can only wonder what this character is capable of.
All in all, I think the potential is evident to everyone and still yet to be truly exploited.

She is not dropping below high tier with such mindless edgeguarding and a top 5 disadvantage state.

I never said otherwise.

 

[Shaya]

Pika fits less and less in a meta which is producing (through DLC/development) insanely good ranged, insanely strong punish games and disadvantage states Pika can't readily capitalize on.

He sucked before, mostly and still relying on people struggling to punish him through his small frame especially in the lag of many of his animations.
But Meta Knight almost completely envelops Pikachu's real abilities.
His results are getting worse over time, not better or at least maintaining themselves. Find me a top rated character in a similar predicament (hint: it's arguably diddy kong only).

He's essentially always been a few grades above average at best with some very nuanced difficulties for opponents to overcome which when coupled with ESAM-hype and rabid supporters (hi, I'm waiting for "pika goes even with or beats sheik" hyuk hyuk) has just been easier to go "okay okay, FINE" rather than "no, please, stop overrating this rat".
When the shield hit lag patch came along, Zero Suit and Ryu skyrocketed (relatively) in representation and ability, yet the other character with a heavily impacted moveset went no where... Like, no character got more literally buffed in that patch than Ryu, Robin and Pikachu but which of these continues to heavily disappoint for no real justifiable reason?

There is no doubt that Pikachu has the toolset to play a read based game which can compete with strong characters (much like how I see Ike), but that's it. Bar some specific match ups, you're never losing to this character like you're losing to Sheik, Sonic or otherwise, you're just getting out played at a more uncommonly focused on layer of smash. A character who has tools to outplay others does not comparatively rate anywhere close to those with more consistent tools.

 

[Thinkaman]

Pika fits less and less in a meta which is producing (through DLC/development) insanely good ranged, insanely strong punish games and disadvantage states Pika can't readily capitalize on.

Actual internal response by me:

"Oh yeah, Pikachu is a character in this game!"

 

[TriTails]

I find it ironic people are using matchup spread to help Mario's placement over Fox's.

Who top tiers Mario actually beat?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I find it ironic people are using matchup spread to help Mario's placement over Fox's.

Who top tiers Mario actually beat?

Pikachu.

Otherwise none though iirc

 

[Bobert]

Does Fox beat any Top Tiers himself? Doesn't he lose or go even against everybody else in the current Top 10/15?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Does Fox beat any Top Tiers himself? Doesn't he lose to/go even with everybody else in the current Top 10?

Nah, he goes even aganist himself at least.

 

[Megamang]

Speaking of fox over Mario, he has some solid kill confirms off of landing dair, running ftilt (backside hitbox), and I believe at certain percent u-tilt or dash attack lead to uair kills.

His PP is huge, his foxtrot is above average... So I see his movement getting better as time goes on. His combo game is being optimized in training mode but still has room to grow at a high level. I can see the character improving in this way, with a bayonetta like (not as good obv) touch of death type feel where he opens with anything and can convert with that hard. For instance, a rising dair actually autocancels on Battlefield platforms, which can combo into uair. Unfortunately character specific combos will continue to grow specifically on him, as he is uniquely susceptible. So... i guess all im getting at is, better than mario!

I think bayo hurts him specifically because of his style, he is very vulnerable to bat within and witch time, as well as high level edgeguarding. Actually, edgeguarding will also continue to grow against him. The more i think about him, the more I see him falling.

If we count shiek out, he is often a Worst MU for characters. If they lack ways to escape his utilt strings they are devastating. Same if they can't land. Autocanceled u-air into utilt is as close as he has to braindead confirms, since many characters cant land unless they make a risky maneuver. I could see him doing well against MK. High aggression and very mobile neutral, good at juggling. Sure MK edgeguards him well, but its not like he is particularly good at getting fox offstage and offstage fox should be dead anyways. But this isn't even always true in melee, I think players underestimate the resilience of a skilled offstage player. (come in low, tech jump the stage spike, and you're back!)


EDIT: Top level play has Mario as one of the best choices against Shiek. This alone is a huge boon. ZSS outkills him, but Mario benefits from Battlefield layouts so at least he has that making her choices harder and opening ladder kills for him if she picks these stages, otherwise he gets some survivability ESPECIALLY with weaker Boost Kick... Rosa is a trouble MU though. Much like fox, he is a problem MU for many characters... again for utilt train stuff, as well as a reflector and great gimping tools. How does FLUDD play out against Bayonetta? I could see it working well, with a gimping tool that actually can't be Bat within or Witch Time'd.
Huge grab reward is another thing that solidifies his position in my mind, with mobility and flexible usage aerials also helping his case.

There was some bustlings about him getting a kill confirm with landing dair, I think landing dair > PP > JC Usmash was a true combo at kill percents in training mode? I'm not sure what came of that.

 

[Y2Kay]

Does Fox beat any Top Tiers himself? Doesn't he lose or go even against everybody else in the current Top 10/15?

With they way the ESAM vs. Larry Lurr Grudge match went, probs. pikachu


But it's kinda clear now that doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[R3D3MON]

Megamang I also often see Larry using rising or falling nair and the weak hitbox of nair for kill setups into running up-smash. Also during G3 Larry was pulling some insane PP u-tilts on VoiD and other competitors for his combos/strings. I definitely agree with you that Fox has quite a bit of room to grow in regards to movement options and combo options.

 

[C0rvus]

I dunno about his top tier matchups, but as someone who has experience with many mid tiers under his belt, Fox is a dreaded MU for many characters like Robin, Mega Man, Shulk, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit Trainer, etc. However, as time goes on, his issue with getting punished super hard and edgeguarded super hard may make him less potent. His pressure is very very strong, and his neutral is quite good too. But his disadvantaged state isn't good. In high tier, that may be the most important trait to have. Look at Sheik, ZSS, Bayonetta, Villager, Diddy, etc. In a game where safe confirms and minimal risk are the meta, Fox is not top tier.

 

[Y2Kay]

Dang it C0rvus you stole my thunder. I was about to say the one thing everyone was looking over was the way Fox bodies mid and low tiers. I think he's a formidable gatekeeper, one much more dreaded than Pikachu.

 

[C0rvus]

I've played too many mid tiers to not hate playing against Fox. But lately things have been getting better. It really comes down to hitting your edgeguards. Pikachu is annoying, but he doesn't dominate in any way. Mario also gives a lot of mid tiers a headache, but it might be a personal thing. I think I have a mental block against Mario :/

 

[Mario766]

Fox vs Ike isn't fun, the more the Fox doesn't charge in the more mind numbing the MU gets IMO.

Off-Stage is so free it's hilarious though. Fox vs Everyone transforms into a terrible MU if Fox is sent off-stage and people can stop side-b to ledge/through them.

 

[Funbot28]

Here is my 1.14 Tier List:

Spoiler

Any disagreements? I feel that the patch did not change the tier list too much...

 

[Megamang]

You need way more content if you're just gonna throw up a tier list.

Anyways, lets not get into everyone posting tier lists, please please. It isn't compelling.

But, my main disagreement with your list is my next topic suggestion: Bayonetta! I definitely don't think she should be placed so high this early, but she certainly does feel dominant. She has many ZSS parallels, such as a purported 'weak' neutral game that still somehow feels oppressive when you are facing it. But much like we see high frequency of powershields now against ZSS at high level, counterplay will develop. Does anyone have any interesting counterplays to Bat Within or Witch Time? I now know as megaman that if im caught in it and am in 'lemon mode', I should continue firing because the lemons will clank with her smashes and protect me. Leaf shield can help, but on the same token you are playing with fire because you are basically allowing her to easily time a witch time on you in exchange for a possible.. just surviving witch time.

Maybe its just the lengthy punish that often follows cementing it in my mind, but it feels like her moves have insane priority. Obviously this excludes the smashes, which can be stopped with nearly anything. Otherwise I feel I can't compete with ABK or I just die, witch time always sucks me out of my aerials, nair and uair constantly keep me offstage when in the continuous hitbox, I almost never stop dair with an aerial of my own... Do the blurs + her moving her body in weird ways help her win/make trades?

Anyone have any particular success with a certain character? Megaman feels like the MK matchup where neutral dominance feels possible but you are always a good read, being cornered, etc from a super deadly punish. Close to even though in my experience, only if you can SDI of course.

 

[C0rvus]

Side special gets me every time. I am certain it will become a consistently punished move in time. But man it beats Wiz Kick clean, so it definitely has decent priority; the aerial version especially so. Bayo's moves will be susceptible to powershielding, especially bair and down tilt, which seem juuuust safe enough if spaced on shield.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^^when you gun stop ****in wit dem low tiers dawg?

 

[C0rvus]

I have been working on both a Cloud and a Bayonetta of late. I'm not certain there's a high tier who suits my play style, plus I want to be a special snowflake

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are breaking my heart bro

 

[C0rvus]

:'(
What would you have me do, then? I'm all ears for advice from better players.

Also, I feel like Villager is another gatekeeper. Many characters simply cannot deal with his zoning and keepaway.

 

[Smog Frog]

its probably the wanting to be a special snowflake part

i mean i played for the longest ****in time but then i realized "why am i doing this to myself" then i picked up and experienced increased satisfaction almost immediately, partly because i enjoy pissing people off

 

[ARISTOS]

its probably the wanting to be a special snowflake part

i mean i played for the longest ****in time but then i realized "why am i doing this to myself" then i picked up and experienced increased satisfaction almost immediately, partly because i enjoy pissing people off

 

[Rikkhan]

lol?

 

[TTTTTsd]

The video above is the power of Frame 2-8 windbox on G&W Up+B.

Can't wait for people to lab out windows for this~~~~

 

[C0rvus]

Oh, that snowflake bit was supposed to be tongue in cheek. Mostly. I'm still trying to shake the remnants of my scrub mentality. I'll get there.
I have to make a choice between results and fun, on some level where they diverge. Losing isn't fun, though.
Where does Corrin lie in everyones' opinion? I've seen him mostly in upper mid so far. A fine place to be no doubt, but is there anywhere for him to go? He seems veeeery straightforward.

 

[wedl!!]

My reaction to that

 

[ARISTOS]

Oh, that snowflake bit was supposed to be tongue in cheek. Mostly. I'm still trying to shake the remnants of my scrub mentality. I'll get there.
I have to make a choice between results and fun, on some level where they diverge. Losing isn't fun, though.
Where does Corrin lie in everyones' opinion? I've seen him mostly in upper mid so far. A fine place to be no doubt, but is there anywhere for him to go? He seems veeeery straightforward.

I think it's the opposite actually.

seems to have a ton of different options in her kit and I think there are a ton of different ways to play this character. Loads of mix-ups available to her.

 

[hypersonicJD]

:'(
What would you have me do, then? I'm all ears for advice from better players.

Also, I feel like Villager is another gatekeeper. Many characters simply cannot deal with his zoning and keepaway.

Besides, Ranai gave ZeRo a lot of trouble in Genesis 3 and he has still been getting consistent resutls with Villager. I think he can fit in Top 15 (11 to be precise). Mostly because I have heard that the Rosalina match-up is hard for him and Fox might also give him trouble (this is just how I see it. Since I don't main Villager nor Fox I don't really know. I just go by the though of Fox pressuring Villager to death, but Villager gimping Fox so easily).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You need way more content if you're just gonna throw up a tier list.

Anyways, lets not get into everyone posting tier lists, please please. It isn't compelling.

But, my main disagreement with your list is my next topic suggestion: Bayonetta! I definitely don't think she should be placed so high this early, but she certainly does feel dominant. She has many ZSS parallels, such as a purported 'weak' neutral game that still somehow feels oppressive when you are facing it. But much like we see high frequency of powershields now against ZSS at high level, counterplay will develop. Does anyone have any interesting counterplays to Bat Within or Witch Time? I now know as megaman that if im caught in it and am in 'lemon mode', I should continue firing because the lemons will clank with her smashes and protect me. Leaf shield can help, but on the same token you are playing with fire because you are basically allowing her to easily time a witch time on you in exchange for a possible.. just surviving witch time.

Maybe its just the lengthy punish that often follows cementing it in my mind, but it feels like her moves have insane priority. Obviously this excludes the smashes, which can be stopped with nearly anything. Otherwise I feel I can't compete with ABK or I just die, witch time always sucks me out of my aerials, nair and uair constantly keep me offstage when in the continuous hitbox, I almost never stop dair with an aerial of my own... Do the blurs + her moving her body in weird ways help her win/make trades?

Anyone have any particular success with a certain character? Megaman feels like the MK matchup where neutral dominance feels possible but you are always a good read, being cornered, etc from a super deadly punish. Close to even though in my experience, only if you can SDI of course.

I think Bayonetta's neutral is only "weak" in comparison to top tier standards, i.e. Sheik, Rosalina, etc. Frame 9 jab is bleh, but she has Bullet Climax to stuff SH approaches and the burst movement necessary (Heel Slide, Afterburner Kick, Witch Twist) to get in your face on a moment's notice. It helps that none of her moves put her into freefall, so even if she flubs something she can still try for a clean getaway. And if you try to be cute and play passively, she can use Bullet Arts to tack on chip damage.

An interesting thing about Witch Time is that if you somehow proc invincibility frames (or super armor or whatever), the slow effect will extend their duration. At KTAR there were several instances where Salem tried to Witch Time a recovery, but they grabbed the ledge before he could capitalize and there wasn't anything he could really do about it. Trumping didn't seem to work either in this particular case. As Bayonetta players get more experience, I think common offenders for stuffing her smashes will become known and a Witch Time off of those moves will call for a quick disruption hit like dtilt before bringing out the big guns.

I suspect her moves have hidden disjoints in order to help everything link better. This may have something to do with the perceived priority on her attacks. (Hitbox viewer when?)

 

[Nu~]

Oh, that snowflake bit was supposed to be tongue in cheek. Mostly. I'm still trying to shake the remnants of my scrub mentality. I'll get there.
I have to make a choice between results and fun, on some level where they diverge. Losing isn't fun, though.
Where does Corrin lie in everyones' opinion? I've seen him mostly in upper mid so far. A fine place to be no doubt, but is there anywhere for him to go? He seems veeeery straightforward.

His kit lacks cohesion...but in a good way. He has a multitude of different options which allows players to adopt many different playstyles with him. I think he has nowhere to go but up.

Of course counterplay will develop (fsmash and dragon lunge extend his hurtbox Yoshi-style) but the tech that will develop as time goes on (and his game plan is further optimized) will be more than enough to make him a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh, that snowflake bit was supposed to be tongue in cheek. Mostly. I'm still trying to shake the remnants of my scrub mentality. I'll get there.
I have to make a choice between results and fun, on some level where they diverge. Losing isn't fun, though.
Where does Corrin lie in everyones' opinion? I've seen him mostly in upper mid so far. A fine place to be no doubt, but is there anywhere for him to go? He seems veeeery straightforward.

Dude you've been trying to main like half the cast what kind of playstyle do you have?

 

[C0rvus]

I wish I knew. I enjoy zoning, item game is a bonus. But I also like mixups and strong footsies, which I suppose necessitates a decent grab. I have a much easier time finding mains in other games. Perhaps its because traditional neutral isn't present in Smash. It's more about pressing your best button and running around than mind games and microspacing.

In BlazBlue, I love Amane. That strong zoning, backed by his unique chip damage focused drill moves and mobility makes him very engaging and fun to play. He is however, a low tier. Corrin strikes me as a decently close parallel, actually.

During the SFV beta, I played R. Mika, though when the game comes out proper I intend to shop around.

At the same time, I also enjoy applying pressure, darting around and ambushing. Or slowly moving in and inciting fear with the threat of big damage. I'm pretty flexible. Or perhaps indecisive is the word. How can people key in on a single playstyle? Mine seems to change at the hour.