Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

Do you have any source to back this claim up?

istudying's win at Avalon with the absence of Mr. R, and 2nd place with Mr. R in attendance where he was double eliminated by Mr R.

Some's first good placing at Umebura (5th) was down to him avoiding Sheik players in Losers after he was sent there by Rain. I believe Rain was the only top Sheik in attendance.

Take "absence of Sheik" and "avoiding Sheik in bracket" to be the same thing, by the way.

 

[HoSmash4]

istudying's win at Avalon with the absence of Mr. R, and 2nd place with Mr. R in attendance where he was double eliminated by Mr R.

Some's first good placing at Umebura (5th) was down to him avoiding Sheik players in Losers after he was sent there by Rain.

Take "absence of Sheik" and "avoiding Sheik in bracket" to be the same thing, by the way.

Ramin is on another level to istudying so that isnt really accurate. I can see the sheik problem in japan though but is Some only elminated by sheiks? I can only see one video of some vs lean on the shig channel to look at.

When I see Sheik vs Greninja, I can see sheik dominates with fair and grab combos but greninja still has dtilt combos which can kill early and I often see greninja living to really high percents vs sheik. Greninja can contest needles with shurikens, greninja's mobility makes it slightly annoying for sheik to hit him.

Is it really bad enough for a -2? Or is it just a slightly harder problem that every non-top tier has when dealing with sheik.

 

[bc1910]

Ramin is on another level to istudying so that isnt really accurate. I can see the sheik problem in japan though but is Some only elminated by sheiks? I can only see one video of some vs lean on the shig channel to look at.

When I see Sheik vs Greninja, I can see sheik dominates with fair and grab combos but greninja still has dtilt combos which can kill early and I often see greninja living to really high percents vs sheik. Greninja can contest needles with shurikens, greninja's mobility makes it slightly annoying for sheik to hit him.

Is it really bad enough for a -2? Or is it just a slightly harder problem that every non-top tier has when dealing with sheik.

Ramin is a top Sheik player - my point was that Greninja struggles when good Sheiks are in attendance. You can try to argue that the skill differential is the main factor, which might be true, but it doesn't hold water (har har) when you consider Greninja's results against Sheik are still poor in places where there's less of a skill differential.

Some is mostly eliminated by Sheik, the only other notable elimination I can recall is at the hands of Nietono's Diddy.

I don't think this is the place to discuss the MU but I'll say I agree with you on some points. Particularly that shurikens are better than most projectiles at contesting needles. On paper I don't think it's a -2, but results and personal experience suggest otherwise.

 

[Sonicninja115]

RE: Mewtwo's recovery.

Learn the sweetspot positions. I find it hilarious that Aba can LC all he wants, but he flubs up his recovery every chance he gets.

You can sweetspot at any point in a 180 degree arc, and at any point in the lower half of it. People just need to spend time working on the fundamentals over the techs. I only SD on stages with weird lips, like omega coliseum and Lylat. Other then that I just spent two or three hours learning the lower sweetspot positions and I am currently learning all the other ones. It should be the same for all characters. You need to learn the limits of your recovery.

 

[Flux0r]

I don't really see what's so scary about a -2 matchup. It probably sounds bad on paper, but they are still doable unless both opponents are playing at TAS levels.

Captain Falcon in Melee has technically a -2 against both Fox and Falco, the two most common characters, but that dosen't stop him from being a tournament threat.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Some's MU chart motivated me to make one myself, for Robin.

Forgoed the "numbered" MU ratios, just made a distinction between what is a "clear" dis/advantage and who has things that can be used to some effect. Noted basically means "Hey, ___ has tools that can be used for great effect to overwhelm, so keep mindful."

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

Also included a "Significantly Stage Dependent" list, as there are some MUs that would fluctuate wildly depending on the stage choice. Mac and Fox on FD, Bayo on TC, Cloud BF, that kind of stuff.

 

[Nu~]

Some's MU chart motivated me to make one myself, for Robin.

Forgoed the "numbered" MU ratios, just made a distinction between what is a "clear" dis/advantage and who has things that can be used to some effect. Noted basically means "Hey, ___ has tools that can be used for great effect to overwhelm, so keep mindful."

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

Also included a "Significantly Stage Dependent" list, as there are some MUs that would fluctuate wildly depending on the stage choice. Mac and Fox on FD, Bayo on TC, Cloud BF, that kind of stuff.

Interesting list, but I'm curious as to why luigi isn't easily spaced out by levin sword and elthunder. Same but less so with Roy.

Also, where do people keep finding this tier list format?

 

[T4ylor]

Interesting list, but I'm curious as to why luigi isn't easily spaced out by levin sword and elthunder. Same but less so with Roy.

Also, where do people keep finding this tier list format?

https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/ this site

 

[Mr. Johan]

Interesting list, but I'm curious as to why luigi isn't easily spaced out by levin sword and elthunder.

Luigi only needs to get in once to equalize the damage racked up, and with Luigi's dash grab and the Levin and Thunder running on a counter, that opportunity is gonna be frequent.

This is a matchup that me and other Robins disagree on a lot, though. Pre-Cyclone patch, I firmly placed the Luigi MU in the "Oh **** no" category.

 

[FullMoon]

Some's MU chart motivated me to make one myself, for Robin.

Forgoed the "numbered" MU ratios, just made a distinction between what is a "clear" dis/advantage and who has things that can be used to some effect. Noted basically means "Hey, ___ has tools that can be used for great effect to overwhelm, so keep mindful."

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

Also included a "Significantly Stage Dependent" list, as there are some MUs that would fluctuate wildly depending on the stage choice. Mac and Fox on FD, Bayo on TC, Cloud BF, that kind of stuff.

Robin losing to Lucas but not Ness is interesting, I know they're different characters but I often see them being grouped together or Lucas getting the short end of the stick.

 

[Radical Larry]

Alright. I'm listening. How does Link get ahold of Sheik in the first place, and avoid getting sliced by a million dagger slashes while he's at it?

Well the most obvious solution is to not actually rush into Sheik, and as the match starts, always bring out a bomb, it sets up for Sheik to dodge it when it's thrown and that makes Sheik predictable at that point; if she jumps, Link can U-Air or U-Tilt. If she tries an attack, Link can grab. If she rolls into Link, Spin Attack.

If you want to get her off the stage, the best solution is to use basically any of Link's attacks, or even the Jab > Jab 2 > Spin Attack combo, which does actually work on Sheik, like so many others. Link can avoid Sheik's needles just by not being near them or, like you can reasonably do without punishment, let Link use Hylian Shield, which defeats...all...projectiles. You got rid of Sheik's needle usage on ground until you attack.

But what happens if you get hit by them? Run or perform a counter attack.
What if she starts grabbing you? DI toward her or downward depending on attack, except U-Air, which you should SDI behind or under Sheik.
What if she starts her string of attacks? Wait. There will be an opportunity for you to retaliate; best option is to DI upward if she performs multiple F-Tilts, so that she can't grab you and it gives you enough time to bring out a retaliating N-Air.

If you want to avoid Sheik's attacks when you get up back from the ledge, use the F-Air/N-Air/Z-Air/Bomb get up. F-Air is good for distancing and may land you a potential 24% damage hit, N-Air gets her away, Z-Air does the same, but with more range and bomb literally sets up for anything you can get out of it.

What if Sheik goes for a B-Air or F-Air on the ledge to stage spike? Don't worry, a simple calculated read with U-Air will get her away, and if not that, jumping up will avoid a stage spike altogether.

If you also want to avoid a 0-to-Death, here's an easy method; just...DI...vertically. Either way, up or down, you're going to make her miss some attacks; the player would have to read your movements to try to get to you. And hey, if you want to kill Sheik off stage quick, just go brave it out with F-Air.

But of course, the main people who will refute this will probably be people who've not spent even a hundredth of a time on Link that I have.

 

[FallofBrawl]

After taking some time. here's a MU chart I've made more Mario. I really dislike the Rosa MU.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Some's MU chart motivated me to make one myself, for Robin.

Forgoed the "numbered" MU ratios, just made a distinction between what is a "clear" dis/advantage and who has things that can be used to some effect. Noted basically means "Hey, ___ has tools that can be used for great effect to overwhelm, so keep mindful."

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

Also included a "Significantly Stage Dependent" list, as there are some MUs that would fluctuate wildly depending on the stage choice. Mac and Fox on FD, Bayo on TC, Cloud BF, that kind of stuff.

I wonder why Robin beats Gunner in your opinion. From my personal experience, Gunner wins that matchup because Gunner controls the neutral with shorthop fair, and a combination of Gunner's mobility, fallspeed, and reflector make it pretty tough for Robin to combo Gunner (Checkmate doesn't work on Gunner. Down throw to jab isn't guaranteed against Gunner either). Also, Gunner can Juggle Robin more effectively than Robin can juggle Gunner due to Gunner's variety of landing mixups (gundashing, reflector, flame pillar, and lunar launch), and Gunner's superior options for landing coverage (Gunner's superior mobility and longer lasting hitboxes are better for juggling). Gunner is also a little bit better at edgeguarding than Robin due to Gunner's flame pillar being better for edgeguarding (this is because Gunner's flame pillar has less endlag and it is spammable), and Gunner's better options when edgeguarding on the stage. While Robin is better at edgeguarding off of the stage, Gunner's superior options for recovery make it harder for Robin to edgeguard. Gunner has an advantage in this matchup because Robin has a hard time approaching in this matchup, and Robin has a somewhat difficult time racking up damage against Gunner.

 

[Y2Kay]

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

It's funny you say this, because Dath Thinks Robin wins just because of his jab being good against us.

I'm totally not buying that this one move let's Robin win, considering the serious mobilty gap between them and how quick shurikens are to stop charging. We also, really mess with Elwind with Hydro Pump. We can make you miss the sweet spot, leaving in free fall and at our mercy.

I was gonna post my Greninja MU chart, but I don't want to contribute to this trend, because I foresee it becoming a problem. I'll post it if anyone really wants to know.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Tbh I did have originally have Gunner down as even, and being the Mii best equipped to fight Robin, but this is something I will readily admit follows that "MU inexperience" caveat I placed. It may just be due to me experimenting with Gunner for a while and feeling that Robin was a more decisive version Gunner where every hit feels like it matters a bit more, and that leaked over to feeling false perspectives on the MU.

That said, aerials and dropped books do have their use in the MU, so its not all doom and gloom.



As for Greninja, I've got games with FullMoon and Gibus where most of my damage did indeed come from Jab disruptions and conversions. Jab really does matter in this MU, and it being Frame 4 and disjointed, it's gonna be used a lot. Beating Bair, standing and dash grab, beating Shadow Sneak of all things, it's quite useful.

Not saying it's the end all be all, but Jab's properties can't be discounted. Matters to Robin just much as Shuriken does for Greninja.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Well the most obvious solution is to not actually rush into Sheik, and as the match starts, always bring out a bomb, it sets up for Sheik to dodge it when it's thrown and that makes Sheik predictable at that point; if she jumps, Link can U-Air or U-Tilt. If she tries an attack, Link can grab. If she rolls into Link, Spin Attack.

If you want to get her off the stage, the best solution is to use basically any of Link's attacks, or even the Jab > Jab 2 > Spin Attack combo, which does actually work on Sheik, like so many others. Link can avoid Sheik's needles just by not being near them or, like you can reasonably do without punishment, let Link use Hylian Shield, which defeats...all...projectiles. You got rid of Sheik's needle usage on ground until you attack.

But what happens if you get hit by them? Run or perform a counter attack.
What if she starts grabbing you? DI toward her or downward depending on attack, except U-Air, which you should SDI behind or under Sheik.
What if she starts her string of attacks? Wait. There will be an opportunity for you to retaliate; best option is to DI upward if she performs multiple F-Tilts, so that she can't grab you and it gives you enough time to bring out a retaliating N-Air.

If you want to avoid Sheik's attacks when you get up back from the ledge, use the F-Air/N-Air/Z-Air/Bomb get up. F-Air is good for distancing and may land you a potential 24% damage hit, N-Air gets her away, Z-Air does the same, but with more range and bomb literally sets up for anything you can get out of it.

What if Sheik goes for a B-Air or F-Air on the ledge to stage spike? Don't worry, a simple calculated read with U-Air will get her away, and if not that, jumping up will avoid a stage spike altogether.

If you also want to avoid a 0-to-Death, here's an easy method; just...DI...vertically. Either way, up or down, you're going to make her miss some attacks; the player would have to read your movements to try to get to you. And hey, if you want to kill Sheik off stage quick, just go brave it out with F-Air.

But of course, the main people who will refute this will probably be people who've not spent even a hundredth of a time on Link that I have.

I highly doubt a bottom six character does even remotely good aganist Sheik. But let's see.....

For one thing, if Sheik jumps, chances are you'll miss the grab and get comboed really badly. And, what if the Sheik starts out using needles? What would you do then? Get hit.

Most of that DI stuff woudn't work. Needles have enough hitstun for her to followup. Bam. That's easy percents.

Even if you read Sheik's fair, it's so quick that you woudn't be able to punish it.

 

[FullMoon]

Robin is a MU for Greninja where F-Air is really important since it outranges his jab and is safe on shield when spaced. Trying to hit Robin with N-Air in neutral will most likely end in you getting jabbed. If you can keep Robin at bay, he's not too difficult and since he has poor mobility getting away from him is pretty easy.

Him having a very exploitable recovery and disadvantaged state, plus wind jab being escapable helps a lot too, being able to crouch under Thoron is nice too

This is all going from my matches with Johan, once I started being more cautious with my zoning and spacing, the MU became significantly better.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't really see what's so scary about a -2 matchup. It probably sounds bad on paper, but they are still doable unless both opponents are playing at TAS levels.

Captain Falcon in Melee has technically a -2 against both Fox and Falco, the two most common characters, but that dosen't stop him from being a tournament threat.

Falcon isn't a tournament threat in Melee if S2J's repeated and kind of depressing 9th/worse place finish strings is anything to go by.

I mean, he's a threat for a long time in the tournament, but it's very rare for a Falcon to go Top 8 and rarer past that point for a Falcon to place above 7th. People are trying to push the character's movement strengths, and that might go a long way in the end, but for now Falcon's -2 matchup kills his potential.

 

[irokex13]

I wonder why Robin beats Gunner in your opinion. From my personal experience, Gunner wins that matchup because Gunner controls the neutral with shorthop fair, and a combination of Gunner's mobility, fallspeed, and reflector make it pretty tough for Robin to combo Gunner (Checkmate doesn't work on Gunner. Down throw to jab isn't guaranteed against Gunner either). Also, Gunner can Juggle Robin more effectively than Robin can juggle Gunner due to Gunner's variety of landing mixups (gundashing, reflector, flame pillar, and lunar launch), and Gunner's superior options for landing coverage (Gunner's superior mobility and longer lasting hitboxes are better for juggling). Gunner is also a little bit better at edgeguarding than Robin due to Gunner's faster flame pillar, and Gunner's better options when edgeguarding on the stage. While Robin is better at edgeguarding off of the stage, Gunner's superior options for recovery make it harder for Robin to edgeguard. Gunner has an advantage in this matchup because Robin has a hard time approaching in this matchup, and Robin has a somewhat difficult time racking up damage against Gunner.

I know that it is important to defend your character, but please do not spread misinformation. Robin's Checkmate (down throw up air) is a true combo that works on the entire cast, Gunner included. Robin's d throw jab has never been a true combo. Also, Flame pillar (frame 21) is not faster than Arcfire (frame 17).

 

[Y2Kay]

Robin is a MU for Greninja where F-Air is really important since it outranges his jab and is safe on shield when spaced. Trying to hit Robin with N-Air in neutral will most likely end in you getting jabbed. If you can keep Robin at bay, he's not too difficult and since he has poor mobility getting away from him is pretty easy.

Him having a very exploitable recovery and disadvantaged state, plus wind jab being escapable helps a lot too, being able to crouch under Thoron is nice too

This is all going from my matches with Johan, once I started being more cautious with my zoning and spacing, the MU became significantly better.

Whether you greninja has emphasis on spacing/zoning really effects how well the matchup goes.

For example, Venia used to lose to MikeKirby. The next time they fought, Venia tried not to fight him up-close so much and camped him more, and he won.

I believe falls into this category as well

 

[Flux0r]

Falcon isn't a tournament threat in Melee if S2J's repeated and kind of depressing 9th/worse place finish strings is anything to go by.

I mean, he's a threat for a long time in the tournament, but it's very rare for a Falcon to go Top 8 and rarer past that point for a Falcon to place above 7th. People are trying to push the character's movement strengths, and that might go a long way in the end, but for now Falcon's -2 matchup kills his potential.

It's Falcon's dysfunctional recovery that screws him over in the end, he also get's beaten badly by Sheik.

Don't get me wrong here. It's not favorable at all, but there seems to be some irrational fear of considering that there exists -2 matchups in this game. I think Zero Suit Samus has possibly -2 against Pikachu, but that dosen't make it an guaranteed victory for the opponent.

The consensus of only having 55-45 or 50-50 match-ups strikes me odd when the game clearly isn't that balanced.

 

[RosalinA]

It's Falcon's dysfunctional recovery that screws him over in the end, he also get's beaten badly by Sheik.

Don't get me wrong here. It's not favorable at all, but there seems to be some irrational fear of considering that there exists -2 matchups in this game. I think Zero Suit Samus has possibly -2 against Pikachu, but that dosen't make it an guaranteed victory for the opponent.

The consensus of only having 55-45 or 50-50 match-ups strikes me odd when the game clearly isn't that balanced.

Can there be -3's for little mac's case, because I don't care how good he is on the ground, a little mac will lose every time to some characters like shiek.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But of course, the main people who will refute this will probably be people who've not spent even a hundredth of a time on Link that I have.

Let me just ignore the other stuff and cut to the important part right there:

Only time spent in tournaments is relevant when you are suggesting something this insane. Online is not only meaningless but gives you false data, putting you farther away from the truth than somebody just looking at the MU on paper. Training mode doesn't mean squat either.

How much of what you have said, have you done in tournament? Against a known Sheik? Like, one that's power ranked for the region?

If the answer is zero, everything you said is meaningless.

At least when I try to explain Ike MUs I have a few scraps of tournament experience I can use, plus I mainly go by what I learn in the discussions top level Ikes have in skype rather than whatever I happen to personally think.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I know that it is important to defend your character, but please do not spread misinformation. Robin's Checkmate (down throw up air) is a true combo that works on the entire cast, Gunner included. Robin's d throw jab has never been a true combo. Also, Flame pillar (frame 21) is not faster than Arcfire (frame 17).

Can you show me a gif of the checkmate true combo on Gunner? If not, can you tell me what percents this works on Gunner? I know that Checkmate is definitely not a kill confirm on Gunner, but I haven't been able to get it to connect as a true combo at all. Also, I was talking about the fact that flame pillar has less endlag than Arcfire. I'm sorry for not clearing that up. I don't really value defending my character as much as I value accurate matchup discussions. To be honest, I am a little bit annoyed with most of the cast claiming that they beat my character without any matchup discussion or tournament results to support their claims.

Edit: The correction that I was sure about was edited. Do you want to discuss this matchup in further detail on the Mii Gunner matchup thread?

 

[PK Gaming]

Some's MU chart motivated me to make one myself, for Robin.

Forgoed the "numbered" MU ratios, just made a distinction between what is a "clear" dis/advantage and who has things that can be used to some effect. Noted basically means "Hey, ___ has tools that can be used for great effect to overwhelm, so keep mindful."

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

Also included a "Significantly Stage Dependent" list, as there are some MUs that would fluctuate wildly depending on the stage choice. Mac and Fox on FD, Bayo on TC, Cloud BF, that kind of stuff.

I'd put Wario in Even. Robin vs Wario is the definition of a volatile matchup; it really could go either way depending on the given circumstances.

I'm not sure what Jr. or Roy have to make this an even matchup; those are squarely in Robin's favor imo.

R.O.B bodies Robin pretty badly. It's definitely in its favor.

Robin loses to Olimar for sure imo. Not too badly, but it's a disadvantage.

DK, DDD and Bowser should be in clear advantage.

I feel like Robin loses to WFT, but there's no real footage to back this up. Just instincts on my part.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Sonicninja115]

Well the most obvious solution is to not actually rush into Sheik, and as the match starts, always bring out a bomb, it sets up for Sheik to dodge it when it's thrown and that makes Sheik predictable at that point; if she jumps, Link can U-Air or U-Tilt. If she tries an attack, Link can grab. If she rolls into Link, Spin Attack.

If you want to get her off the stage, the best solution is to use basically any of Link's attacks, or even the Jab > Jab 2 > Spin Attack combo, which does actually work on Sheik, like so many others. Link can avoid Sheik's needles just by not being near them or, like you can reasonably do without punishment, let Link use Hylian Shield, which defeats...all...projectiles. You got rid of Sheik's needle usage on ground until you attack.

But what happens if you get hit by them? Run or perform a counter attack.
What if she starts grabbing you? DI toward her or downward depending on attack, except U-Air, which you should SDI behind or under Sheik.
What if she starts her string of attacks? Wait. There will be an opportunity for you to retaliate; best option is to DI upward if she performs multiple F-Tilts, so that she can't grab you and it gives you enough time to bring out a retaliating N-Air.

If you want to avoid Sheik's attacks when you get up back from the ledge, use the F-Air/N-Air/Z-Air/Bomb get up. F-Air is good for distancing and may land you a potential 24% damage hit, N-Air gets her away, Z-Air does the same, but with more range and bomb literally sets up for anything you can get out of it.

What if Sheik goes for a B-Air or F-Air on the ledge to stage spike? Don't worry, a simple calculated read with U-Air will get her away, and if not that, jumping up will avoid a stage spike altogether.

If you also want to avoid a 0-to-Death, here's an easy method; just...DI...vertically. Either way, up or down, you're going to make her miss some attacks; the player would have to read your movements to try to get to you. And hey, if you want to kill Sheik off stage quick, just go brave it out with F-Air.

But of course, the main people who will refute this will probably be people who've not spent even a hundredth of a time on Link that I have.

Have any European Links beaten Mr. R? Has a Link ever beaten a top 15 Shiek?

In theorycrafting, a Mewtwo player can claim that we beat RosaLuma. we outspace her, edge-guard her, have a strong projectile, can kill Luma easily and Rosa is combo food for M2. However, Rosa still is clearly better then Mewtwo. she loses these huge things, but still wins the MU. Why can this happen? Because Rosalina has the better frame data. the better grab, the better walling and killing potential? She is just a better character, and thus beats Mewtwo. A character can beat another character in theory, but lose in reality.

 

[Djent]

Falcon isn't a tournament threat in Melee if S2J's repeated and kind of depressing 9th/worse place finish strings is anything to go by.

I mean, he's a threat for a long time in the tournament, but it's very rare for a Falcon to go Top 8 and rarer past that point for a Falcon to place above 7th. People are trying to push the character's movement strengths, and that might go a long way in the end, but for now Falcon's -2 matchup kills his potential.

Yeah, Falcon is kind of a case study in how crippling -2 MUs can be (and one of the reasons I think bc1910 's question about who has them is really important). Another one is Brawl Falco, who arguably only really "lost" to two characters. But where was he by the end of the game's lifespan? DEHF would mostly finish 9th at majors like S2J does.

Top players are at or close to the ceiling on almost all relevant variables (be they connected to aptitude or experience), so one of the only things still "free to vary" in determining placing consistency is character choice.

 

[ARGHETH]

Can you show me a gif of the checkmate true combo? If not, can you tell me what percents this works on Gunner? I know that Checkmate is definitely not a kill confirm on Gunner, but I haven't been able to get it to connect as a true combo at all

For what it's worth, I've been able to get it on a 25/0 Lv. 9 Gunner pretty consistently.

Also, I was talking about the fact that flame pillar has less endlag than Arcfire.

It's only four less frames when the FAF is 60, so I don't see how it makes it any more than slightly better, especially considering it comes out slower.

without any matchup discussion or tournament results

We're having a matchup discussion right now, aren't we? His list wasn't meant to be definitive; he even admitted matchup inexperience. Also, there's, like, one or two high level Gunners out there. Kind of hard to get good MU experience.

 

[AxelVDP]

Can there be -3's for little mac's case, because I don't care how good he is on the ground, a little mac will lose every time to some characters like shiek.

as there are no Mac mains who usually post in this thread...
the Sheik matchup is not THAT bad, Sol, the best Little Mac player atm, believes that the matchup is around 60:40 and not worse
he also has some top level Sheik experience by having played against Zero, so his claim is not really baseless
sure, Mac gets edgeguarded hard (but that's the way almost all of his matchups go) and has trouble dealing with her camping BUT he has a few nifty tricks he can use
Mac's punish game on Sheik is actually pretty darn good, he can rack up to like 40% easily at low %s just by landing a f3 downtilt on her because Sheik's physics are perfect for his type of combos
also, just by landing a random fsmash he makes up like 6-7 fairs worth of dammage and basically every trade is hugely in our advantage (considering Sheik is also very light)
his f1 invincible upB is also a pretty good tool to stop Sheik from fair-planing you, obviously, if Sheik reads it you're in for some trouble, but at least you're not 100% free
also, sideB is a pretty good answer to needles
I won't argue that it's a really hard matchup, but it's not -3 level of bad (which would be almost unwinnable)

 

[bc1910]

Radical Larry Your tendency to get emotional over people questioning your theories is getting old, fast. For once, back your claims up with some evidence. Or, at the very least, admit that you are just theorycrafting and/or going off your own (low-mid level) experience. Even doing that can prompt healthy discussion.

Stop showing angst because people don't agree with you. You've given no compelling argument whatsoever.

Yeah, Falcon is kind of a case study in how crippling -2 MUs can be (and one of the reasons I think bc1910 's question about who has them is really important). Another one is Brawl Falco, who arguably only really "lost" to two characters. But where was he by the end of the game's lifespan? DEHF would mostly finish 9th at majors like S2J does.

Top players are at or close to the ceiling on almost all relevant variables (be they connected to aptitude or experience), so one of the only things still "free to vary" in determining placing consistency is character choice.

Agree completely.

I wanted to make the point about Melee Falcon being a terrible argument against -2s not mattering, because he hasn't won a major in the last 8 years of competitive Melee.

Being a "tournament threat" is not the same as being in with a shot of actually winning the thing.

 

[Das Koopa]

Puff is a slightly better example of a disadvantageous matchup gap getting closed over the years by efficient playing, but Puff is a gimp machine in Melee with a ridiculously good recovery meaning she generally can just do more than Falcon can when at a disadvantage.

 

[Djmarcus44]

For what it's worth, I've been able to get it on a 25/0 Lv. 9 Gunner pretty consistently.

It's only four less frames when the FAF is 60, so I don't see how it makes it any more than slightly better, especially considering it comes out slower.

We're having a matchup discussion right now, aren't we? His list wasn't meant to be definitive; he even admitted matchup inexperience. Also, there's, like, one or two high level Gunners out there. Kind of hard to get good MU experience.

When you got Checkmate to work on Gunner, was it a true combo?

I know that Arcfire is better than flame pillar overall. I still believe that flame pillar is better for edgeguarding since it has less endlag, and it is spammable.

I understand that there are very few gunners. I was making that comment about the matchup boards that would not explain why they "beat" Gunner (I have been trying to get some matchup discussions going, but I have rarely gotten a response). I also was trying to discuss this matchup earlier on the community matchup chart, but no one responded. Since it seems like I have finally found some Robin players that want to discuss this matchup, my comment about how no one is willing to discuss the matchup doesn't matter.

 

[ReRaze]

When you got Checkmate to work on Gunner, was it a true combo?

Keep in mind that even if it doesn't say true combo it may still be guaranteed because airdodges come out at frame 3 for most characters iirc? So even though your hitstun may end you may not have anything fast enough to escape.

Edit: oh wait i forgot...you can airdodge earlier out of hitstun than other stuff right?

 

[BTVolta]

Can there be -3's for little mac's case, because I don't care how good he is on the ground, a little mac will lose every time to some characters like shiek.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z88-33jHGw

 

[C0rvus]

Some's MU chart motivated me to make one myself, for Robin.

Forgoed the "numbered" MU ratios, just made a distinction between what is a "clear" dis/advantage and who has things that can be used to some effect. Noted basically means "Hey, ___ has tools that can be used for great effect to overwhelm, so keep mindful."

The usual caveats of "bias" and "MU inexperience" apply. I'm just now contemplating why I have Greninja and Sonic and Pit in that category. *shrug*

Also included a "Significantly Stage Dependent" list, as there are some MUs that would fluctuate wildly depending on the stage choice. Mac and Fox on FD, Bayo on TC, Cloud BF, that kind of stuff.

What are the Mii Fighters in this list? Default 1111 I assume. I recall in that video made by Dath and Raziek a while back, Mii Brawler was noted as a particularly bad matchup.
Also, the last section deserves some elaboration. I assume you want to take the bulk of those guys to Battlefield, Dreamland, maybe Lylat. Robin looooves those platforms, and Bayo and Mac don't. But I know little about the Robin/Cloud and Robin/Fox MU.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If falcon is getting consisently dominated, then he doesn't hold -2s. That's more on the -3s side of things imo. -2s are like puff vs fox situation Das Koopa pointed out.

EDIT: oh and i have some thoughts pertaining to sheik needles and fair, but i'll get on that later. Gotta gather my thoughts and put them together.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Keep in mind that even if it doesn't say true combo it may still be guaranteed because airdodges come out at frame 3 for most characters iirc? So even though your hitstun may end you may not have anything fast enough to escape.

Edit: oh wait i forgot...you can airdodge earlier out of hitstun than other stuff right?

When I tested Checkmate on Gunner, the CPU was able to airdodge out of the combo. The Computer was also able to DI out of Checkmate pretty easily when Gunner received enough knockback from the throw to to be able to get hit by an up air (around 50% on Gunner).

Mr. Johan , while Robin has a higher damage output than Gunner, Robin has such a hard time in the neutral that he would need a kill confirm or 50/50 in order to make up for it. In this matchup, it seems like Gunner is more likely to get a kill from a throw since Gunner's up air can outlast an air dodge that is used too quickly.

 

[shrooby]

Luigi only needs to get in once to equalize the damage racked up, and with Luigi's dash grab and the Levin and Thunder running on a counter, that opportunity is gonna be frequent.

This is a matchup that me and other Robins disagree on a lot, though. Pre-Cyclone patch, I firmly placed the Luigi MU in the "Oh **** no" category.

Also worth mentioning that if Robin recovers low at basically any point she should die if the Luigi can mash properly for Cyclone gimps.
You could say that about any good spike I guess, but Cyclone is worse because it's a bigger hitbox and stays out longer. So it's harder to abuse Elwind's horizontal mobility to avoid it. #_#

 

[L9999]

Robin losing to Lucas but not Ness is interesting, I know they're different characters but I often see them being grouped together or Lucas getting the short end of the stick.

I guess because Ness doesn't have something to annoy Robin from afar. Lucas has the snake and PK Fire.

Why do Greninjas think Sheik vs greninja is blocking their viablity? Like what in the matchup stops greninja from winning it?

Speaking of gatekeeping, just how much characters the blonde trio gatekeeps? On top of my head:


Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely:




Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely:



Disrespects their entire existence by shredding their gameplan completely/beats them up really bad:


Missing someone?

 

[Smog Frog]

does actually body though? like moreso than ?