Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

I honestly think Corrin's recovery is nearly Cloud tier. At the very least, it's bad enough to be consistently abused by characters other than the top tier edgeguarders, unlike most recoveries in this game. His upb is 2 frame bait, with its long start-up and slow travel speed. In addition, Corrin's poor air mobility means he'll be forced to use it more often than not. Bair doesn't make up for this, and often must to used to even make it to the ledge, leaving Corrin open. Side b, when it can be used, is still a large commitment because he can't act until the apex of the jump, and is stuck in the pinning animation for a time.

I also think you underrate Cloud's disadvantage state. Despite Corrin's multiple landing options, he still has to commit to each option and can be punished accordingly by most characters if they make the correct read. As Rosalina, I don't care about Corrin's landing options because they all lose to uair. Meanwhile, Cloud throws out a giant hitbox below him and all I can do is respect it. His dair throws the general trend of uair>dair onto its head.

If your recovery legesnaps and carries you a decent distance, your recovery is nowhere near Cloud tier. It's honestly that simple. If Corrin had Falcon's Up B, his recovery would still be better. As it happens his recovery has a hitbox and startup invincibility, and he has a bunch of recovery mixups as well. Their recoveries are in different leagues.

Also, don't challenge Cloud's Dair. Punish his landings instead. That's where his disadvantage falls apart.

 

[Wintermelon43]

As we're talking about matchup charts now, I'm gonna post my Kirby one.

Notes:

• The characters are actually ordered.
• Customs off.
• People serisualy underrate the Toon Link matchup. I think Sonic and Meta Knight are worse, but, Toon link is so hard AND bad of a matchup, I picked up Diddy mostly for that matchup
• Donkey Kong, I feel is theoriticially even, but results say 40:60. So 45:55.
• Kirby goes even aganist 3 top tiers and 2 high tiers, and beats 4 high tiers. That is really good.
• Both Captain Falcon and Mewtwo are really close to 50:50. But they're more of in Kirby's favor.
• Kirby doesn't beat WFT as much as their mains say, they exaggerate. Same with Captain Falcon's mains.
• Pac-Man can go either way.
• Pikachu is NOT even. Please stop saying that Pikachu mains.

 

[Tainic]

How is villager even a 50/50 mu for Kirby ?

 

[Man Li Gi]

How is villager even a 50/50 mu for Kirby ?

Cuz cocaine is one hell of a drug.

 

[Deleted member]

As we're talking about matchup charts now, I'm gonna post my Kirby one.View attachment 97642

Notes:

• The characters are actually ordered.
• Customs off.
• People serisualy underrate the Toon Link matchup. I think Sonic and Meta Knight are worse, but, Toon link is so hard AND bad of a matchup, I picked up Diddy mostly for that matchup
• Donkey Kong, I feel is theoriticially even, but results say 40:60. So 45:55.
• Kirby goes even aganist 3 top tiers and 2 high tiers, and beats 4 high tiers. That is really good.
• Both Captain Falcon and Mewtwo are really close to 50:50. But they're more of in Kirby's favor.
• Kirby doesn't beat WFT as much as their mains say, they exaggerate. Same with Captain Falcon's mains.
• Pac-Man can go either way.
• Pikachu is NOT even. Please stop saying that Pikachu mains.

Kirby doesn't beat Mewtwo. Mewtwo has superior air and ground mobility, has the disjoints to keep Kirby out and can edgeguard his recovery well. Kirby can combo him when he's able to get in, but it's tough when Mewtwo is a rather defensively built character and Kirby suffers from having poor approach options. Even when Kirby gets the copy ability it doesn't help much considering Mewtwo can just reflect it back at him.

I also disagree with ZSS being even. I don't see where this comes from, but props to you for not saying Kirby/Sheik is even. I don't see how Kirby beats G&W or Samus either.

 

[C0rvus]

Man, all these low tiers have such good MU spreads. Move over, Fox and Mario, we were wrong. Truly the most balanced Smash of all time. /s
I just don't see how Kirby could have an advantage over THAT many characters. ROB? Lucario? Both have better neutral, more consistent kill power, better survivability. Mr. Game and Watch is a straight up better character. He outfootsies Kirby at every turn. He has that ever present clutch factor, he's nearly ungimpable. Even MU at worst. Ganondorf kills you in 3 interactions, and you're Kirby, so he has literally no issues getting in EVER. His important moves massively outrange and/or outspeed yours, he can cover your recovery just as well as you can his, if not better. Again, even at worst.
I know you're a big Kirby fan, but he isn't as good as you seem to think. Neutral matters in this game. Conversion into kills and safety matter a lot in this game. Kirby is a bit lacking in these areas, some more than others.

 

[wpwood]

55:45 and 45:55 is a difference that doesn't really matter. Those MUs are basically even and the better player will generally win the fight. I would post mine but I don't have the time to explain it, so I'll do it later in the day.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't see how Kirby beats Samus either.

I too was gonna say this. I don't know much about G&W, but I know Samus can keep Kirby away very easily. Also, he can't use his crouch as effectively, as one of Samus's best moves is Dtilt; she'll be using it lots and it beats that.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been really wanting to make an MU chart for Dedede, but I also don't have access to a PC atm and I fear my post will come off as spam among the MU charts other people might make.

EDIT: Here it is I guess.

Some notes:

• Miis are any size, any weight.
• Characters are not in order.
• I don't believe there's any MUs where Dedede is at a whopping advantage. Dedede is one of the characters in the game that benefits most from lack of MU knowledge since he's so highly underrepresented and most people are at a loss dealing with his tools when they first get to facing him. Once you do learn how to fight Dedede though, you realize how heavily flawed his neutral and approach options are.
• If anyone has any quibbles about my thoughts on some characters, I'm open to discussion. Ryu is probably way worse than -1.

 

[bc1910]

The difference between 55:45 and 45:55 is, in most peoples' eyes, the difference between a +1 and a -1 MU.

So to say it doesn't matter is entirely wrong.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've been really wanting to make an MU chart for Dedede, but I also don't have access to a PC atm and I fear my post will come off as spam among the MU charts other people might make.

EDIT: Here it is I guess.

View attachment 97651

Some notes:m

• Miis are any size, any weight.
• I don't believe there's any MUs where Dedede is at a whopping advantage. Dedede is one of the characters in the game that benefits most from lack of MU knowledge since he's so highly underrepresented and most people are at a loss dealing with his tools when they first get to facing him. Once you do learn how to fight Dedede though, you realize how heavily flawed his neutral and approach options are.
• If anyone has any quibbles about my thoughts on some characters, I'm open to discussion. Ryu is probably way worse than -1.

If you put Marth in the 0 area, Lucina should be in there also. If anything, Lucina has a better time in that matchup than Marth thanks to her not having to rely completely on a tipper to actually KO Dedede.

 

[C0rvus]

More like Marth has the benefit of tippers ever killing Dedede at a reasonable percent. When are any of Lucina's moves other than f smash going to kill the fat man? Legit question. D3 lives forever.

 

[Deleted member]

More like Marth has the benefit of tippers ever killing Dedede at a reasonable percent. When are any of Lucina's moves other than f smash going to kill the fat man? Legit question. D3 lives forever.

Pretty much. Marth has a better time in the MU since his spacing is rewarded better thanks to Dedede's huge hurtbox. Marth has tipper bair, nair (offstage is where it kills best) and uair as kill options too. Lucina has... fsmash and usmash?

 

[Bowserboy3]

More like Marth has the benefit of tippers ever killing Dedede at a reasonable percent. When are any of Lucina's moves other than f smash going to kill the fat man? Legit question. D3 lives forever.

Thing is, Dedede outranges Marth in almost all aspects, meaning trying fight normally (spacing, walling etc) won't work. Lucina does said job better because rather than trying to stay at a distance where Dedede can be almost untouched, she can stay in his face, which he has a much harder time dealing with, and she gets more reward doing so than Marth does at this.

Dedede is one of the two matchups I personally switch to Lucina too if I am using Marth (Falcon being the other). She handles it so much better than him. Regardless of the fact that Marth can potentially kill Dedede at a relatively low percent, Lucina can disrupt Dedede much, much easier than Marth can.

 

[C0rvus]

Does he? Maybe back air, but his forward tilt is almost never safe, fair also extends his hurt box, the rest of his moves I don't see Marth taking issue with. If you're close to Dedede, you're getting grabbed. That's where D3 thrives, since he can put you into the vortex.
You likely know better than me, but I imagine playing it out at tipper range is better for Marth. I've seen Dedede's threat ranges. They are very particular. Marth has a much easier time spacing than he does. Just my thoughts.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Does he? Maybe back air, but his forward tilt is almost never safe, fair also extends his hurt box, the rest of his moves I don't see Marth taking issue with. If you're close to Dedede, you're getting grabbed. That's where D3 thrives, since he can put you into the vortex.
You likely know better than me, but I imagine playing it out at tipper range is better for Marth. I've seen Dedede's threat ranges. They are very particular. Marth has a much easier time spacing than he does. Just my thoughts.

Marth staying just out of Ftilt's range for example, he can't get to Dedede in time for a respectable punish. Even if he shields it at tipper range, there is too much shield stun on the move for Marth to effectively punish with any sort of tipper. If Marth wants to effectively punish Dedede (or at least get Dedede open for a punish), he needs to be closer to him, which is something Lucina can do better.

All I am trying to say is that I think that both Marth and Lucina have different benefits to the Dedede matchup, and if one is considered even, the other should be too.

 

[C0rvus]

That's fair. One thing I want to suggest is that you can likely counter poke D3 ftilt because he extends his arm. I can't test it atm but I'm almost certain you could read it or react to it and out out a down tilt or ftilt to clip his arm. D3 ftilt is only safe at a pretty specific range.

 

[L9999]

Marth staying just out of Ftilt's range for example, he can't get to Dedede in time for a respectable punish. Even if he shields it at tipper range, there is too much shield stun on the move for Marth to effectively punish with any sort of tipper. If Marth wants to effectively punish Dedede (or at least get Dedede open for a punish), he needs to be closer to him, which is something Lucina can do better.

All I am trying to say is that I think that both Marth and Lucina have different benefits to the Dedede matchup, and if one is considered even, the other should be too.

Now that you mention this, in which matchups Lucina does better than Marth and viceversa?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Now that you mention this, in which matchups Lucina does better than Marth and viceversa?

From experience, Falcon and Pikachu are the two biggest ones Lucina can excel more in. Though I can see the benefit of using Lucina for Pikachu, personally I still don't notice the difference as much as the Falcon matchup. Sonic is another iffy one if you ask me, but it's not as volatile as Falcon or Pikachu.

To be honest, I don't feel there are that many matchups where Lucina does solidly better than Marth other than the ones mentioned. There are a few matchups where the advantages and disadvantages are different for them both (Dedede being a prime example), but they either remain the same or still worse for Lucina.

 

[Deleted member]

Now that you mention this, in which matchups Lucina does better than Marth and viceversa?

Lucy does better vs Falcon, argubaly. I don't play either characters so I can't say from experience.

That's fair. One thing I want to suggest is that you can likely counter poke D3 ftilt because he extends his arm. I can't test it atm but I'm almost certain you could read it or react to it and out out a down tilt or ftilt to clip his arm. D3 ftilt is only safe at a pretty specific range.

Dedede is one of the most unsafe on shield characters in the game. Only a spaced bair or fsmash are actually good on shield, dsmash has fast startup but the cooldown is enough for somebody to punish him OoS.

 

[ReRaze]

Now that you mention this, in which matchups Lucina does better than Marth and viceversa?

Perhaps in the MU's against small, fast characters like shiek and pikachu, whom are too agile to consistently space tippers but die really early anyway?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Perhaps in the MU's against small, fast characters like shiek and pikachu, whom are too agile to consistently space tippers but die really early anyway?

Sheik I'd still argue that Marth does better than Lucina. I held this opinion even before 1.1.4, but the range buffs just help solidify my opinion. Marth can now much safely chip away at Sheik than Lucina can. The throw to kill setups Marth can perform too also make that matchup potentially better for Marth, as Lucina cannot perform said technique.

 

[ReRaze]

Sheik I'd still argue that Marth does better than Lucina. I held this opinion even before 1.1.4, but the range buffs just help solidify my opinion. Marth can now much safely chip away at Sheik than Lucina can. The throw to kill setups Marth can perform too also make that matchup potentially better for Marth, as Lucina cannot perform said technique.

Hmmm isn't Lucina safe on shield too when properly spaced now Her aerials are almost prepatch marth tipper levels. I'm not certain the throw setups will be that helpful because of rage as a factor as well as opponents being able to airdodge earlier out of hitstun at higher percents (if im not mistaken, I hope not, I just looked it up the other day). I feel like having the option of just throwing out a frame 10 move that can kill shiek sub 80%, i.e you can punish sheik much harder, much easier than having to space for an early kill with Marth. You won't be landing many hits easily against shiek as marth so better make the ones you do count,
And this is a MU where you will normally have alot of rage....

 

[Radical Larry]

I'll go ahead and post my Link MU, which comes from actual tournament (offline) experience in some locals, as well as experience from Anther's fights and actual decent For Glory fights (I'm not basing it on all of them, only the ones where the player was as good as or better than me). I went from most advantageous (red) to least advantageous (blue).

As one can see, my opinion of Link, based on the results I've got with him and tested out with him, is rather high, but it's not unjustified. I've fought against a lot of opponents, good ones even, and I've concluded over the time that Link's most advantageous MUs are against lower tier or bottom tiered characters, with a few middle, high and even top tier characters (Sheik included, with Link probably being the only character who can defeat Sheik) put into the mix.

His even MUs are also with high tier, low tier and top tiered characters.

However, characters who he has a disadvantage against either have far superior attacks, unbeatable attacks or have a good time actually rushing in on Link with no effort. Characters who had projectiles that could ultimately beat him were included, and his three worst MUs are R.O.B., Sonic and Meta Knight; this is due to ROB being a rather annoying and tedious, if not nearly impossible, character to defeat, Meta Knight having his ladder combos and being able to safely go under any platform if FD isn't chosen, and Sonic being able to kill Link at some low damages.

This chart is mainly based on my own experience and is my own opinion. Even if this MU spread isn't to anyone else's liking, it is my own opinion, and respect it as such, no matter how 'bad' or 'good' the opinion is.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hmmm isn't Lucina safe on shield too when properly spaced now? Her aerials are almost prepatch marth tipper levels. I'm not certain the throw setups will be that helpful because of rage as a factor as well as opponents being able to airdodge earlier out of
hitstun at higher percents (if im not mistaken, I hope not, I just looked it up the other day). I feel like having the option of just throwing out a frame 10 move that can kill shiek sub 80%, i.e you can punish sheik much harder much easier than having to space for an early kill with Marth.
And this is an MU where you will have alot of rage....

I'm not just reffering to shields though, but in general. Marth gets more reward for proper spacing, and he can space effectively against Sheik. You aren't just going to be throwing out an Fsmash against Sheik, as you WILL be eating a punish. Marth's spacing moves and approach tools are all much harder for Sheik to punish, and can be used as safe kill moves, something Lucina cannot do (Fair, Nair, Ftilt, all can kill when spaced properly, and are far safer than Fsmash).

 

[C0rvus]

Radical Larry This is not an entirely disagreeable chart as far as I'm concerned. My issue is that you open with a disclaimer that basically says "if you don't agree, frig off". The purpose of sharing these is to start discussion. Shutting down discussion is pretty silly.

Also I can't help but think these charts are the new tier lists, and that they are going to muck up this thread in time. Just as the tier list posts in the same vein did in older threads.

 

[Deleted member]

Disclaimer:
The following chart is my opinion mixed with experience, and if you don't agree with it, just move on. No one's telling you to read further, and if you want to ignore it, just do it. No one's making you read it. No matter how bad or good it is, it's only my opinion of a character, so please take it with a grain of...I'm not even going to finish that.

I'll go ahead and post my Link MU, which comes from actual tournament (offline) experience in some locals, as well as experience from Anther's fights and actual decent For Glory fights (I'm not basing it on all of them, only the ones where the player was as good as or better than me). I went from most advantageous (red) to least advantageous (blue).

View attachment 97657
As one can see, my opinion of Link, based on the results I've got with him and tested out with him, is rather high, but it's not unjustified. I've fought against a lot of opponents, good ones even, and I've concluded over the time that Link's most advantageous MUs are against lower tier or bottom tiered characters, with a few middle, high and even top tier characters (Sheik included, with Link probably being the only character who can defeat Sheik) put into the mix.

His even MUs are also with high tier, low tier and top tiered characters.

However, characters who he has a disadvantage against either have far superior attacks, unbeatable attacks or have a good time actually rushing in on Link with no effort. Characters who had projectiles that could ultimately beat him were included, and his three worst MUs are R.O.B., Sonic and Meta Knight; this is due to ROB being a rather annoying and tedious, if not nearly impossible, character to defeat, Meta Knight having his ladder combos and being able to safely go under any platform if FD isn't chosen, and Sonic being able to kill Link at some low damages.

This chart is mainly based on my own experience and is my own opinion. Even if this MU spread isn't to anyone else's liking, it is my own opinion, and respect it as such, no matter how 'bad' or 'good' the opinion is.

...

Larry, I know you see a lot in Link, but I do disagree with a lot of things here, particularly one placement. I don't see Link having a near unloseable MU vs. Dedede at all. Link beats him, but not to that huge of an extent. You're trying to tell me that the Dedede/Link matchup is Ganondorf vs. ICs in Brawl or Kirby vs. Fox in Melee levels of bad? Seriously?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I'm legitimately scared to post my MU spread of shulk
I'd rather not

 

[ReRaze]

I'm not just reffering to shields though, but in general. Marth gets more reward for proper spacing, and he can space effectively against Sheik. You aren't just going to be throwing out an Fsmash against Sheik, as you WILL be eating a punish. Marth's spacing moves and approach tools are all much harder for Sheik to punish, and can be used as safe kill moves, something Lucina cannot do (Fair, Nair, Ftilt, all can kill when spaced properly, and are far safer than Fsmash).

Ah ok I think I see where you are getting at, so safe kill options with tippered moves?. Also I didn't mean to say throwing out Fsmashes and getting punished but rather throwing them out as a punish. It's just that I feel that with how much shiek dictates the match it would be hard to actually do what you want, especially with her needles, agility, etc, but that's just me, I don't use Marth as much so maybe you could have an easier time spacing and whatnot. I'd rather just play really safe until I see the chance to get a hard punish.

 

[Deleted member]

Radical Larry This is not an entirely disagreeable chart as far as I'm concerned. My issue is that you open with a disclaimer that basically says "if you don't agree, frig off". The purpose of sharing these is to start discussion. Shutting down discussion is pretty silly.

Also I can't help but think these charts are the new tier lists, and that they are going to muck up this thread in time. Just as the tier list posts in the same vein did in older threads.

Yeah I kinda agree. People will be posting their MU charts for characters and discussion will be all over the place. Sorry for contributing to this, lol

 

[SapphSabre777]

I've been seeing a lot of MU lists floating around in regards to Kirby, and it has made me need to address an issue with Kirby.

While I cannot accurately create an MU list myself, it is because I wish to know how to accurately deduce this based upon my own trials and tribulations, which can be a timely endeavor. Sure, I could just commonly accept the public opinion of individuals, but that means I take and accept instead of looking between the obvious lines and possibly finding a solution.

I'll be blunt, I believe the real issue with Kirby isn't even his glaring design flaws anymore: it is how stationary and slow the character's meta is, as well as how stagnant unsuccessful playstyles are coming up and being exploited and destroyed live on streams, and finally thanks to the character meta's lack of adaptation towards specific issues, MUs, etc. We have character metas like Sheik that have become so developed and detailed that they have answers for everything, such as what combos work where, what punishes are best (THIS, especially), and the application of specific techniques, moves, and so on. Kirby has been lying around since launch like Sheik and while we do have combo videos, we still do not know which punishes are best use (I'm currently doing a huge project on that, but college has been holding me back), we do not have in-depth applications of particular moves, techs, etc.

It does not matter which tier a character is based upon mere design pros and cons (I would ensure that certain characters have extremely complex character evaluations regardless of tier because of the passion people have to explore and learn the character): if your character's meta is slow, non-productive, and overall static in terms of adapting and exploring, the character is doomed even more so than if they were the worst character in the game via design, but developed and fleshed out. If this character wants the chance to at least become less of a joke than it is already interpreted as (if SB is anything to go by), then the people that like the character need to make the moves to advance and adapt to this character and the overall knowledge of what makes up the character.

 

[AxelVDP]

-zip-

If I may, I'd like to disagree on Mac's placement.
In my opinion Dedede is Little Mac's best matchup, possibly even +2 (and his only +2 at that, imho) and this is for a number of reasons:
Dedede loses neutral HARD against Mac (and, like in almost every matchup, gordo toss is super bad to throw out in neutral), and when it happens Mac has really strong punishes against him, either by comboing Dedede for lots of %s or by putting Dedede in a juggling situation
and the thing is
Dedede (almost literally) cannot land against a good Mac, his poor aerial mobility does not help in the slightest, and all of his aerials are turbo bad against shield OR can easily be armored through by Mac's smash attacks
He's one of the few characters where I think that Mac has a strong advantaged state, basically.
Also, Dedede's throw game is pretty bad for the purpose of sending Mac offstage for an edgeguard because all of his throws have a mostly vertical launch angle, so he cannot really capitalize on this key weakness of Little Mac
Inhale is one of the few moves that a Mac should kind of fear in this matchup, because it can easily toss him offstage, the thing is though that it can be reacted decently well (it's f17 and the spacing at which a Dedede would use this move is easily recognized and thus it's even easier to anticipate) and a WELL SPACED fsmash beats it and punishes Dedede for using the move (and it's not difficult to punish on reaction, it a 77 frames of commitment, you have all the time in the world)
I really really don't see how this should be a bad matchup for us (and I have also played against a pretty good Dedede in my "region" -I'm from europe so the competition is not really up to the american standard, but still- and he also agrees with me)

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah I kinda agree. People will be posting their MU charts for characters and discussion will be all over the place. Sorry for contributing to this, lol

I don't really take issue with them as long as the poster is willing to discuss it. The problem is mostly on the subsequent posters who merely go "my character doesn't lose to yours" and that's it. If we are having a discussion, let's have a discussion, you know? I'm almost certainly guilty of doing this myself though lol.
I did find your list in particular to be very agreeable and there was some discourse on Marth and Lucina, which bred it's own little back and forth. Not bad. If only we could get some more space between these charts I guess.

 

[Radical Larry]

...

Larry, I know you see a lot in Link, but I do disagree with a lot of things here, particularly one placement. I don't see Link having a near unloseable MU vs. Dedede at all. Link beats him, but not to that huge of an extent. You're trying to tell me that the Dedede/Link matchup is Ganondorf vs. ICs in Brawl or Kirby vs. Fox in Melee levels of bad? Seriously?

Think of this; Dedede has the second highest fall speed and the lowest aerial mobility in the game, as well as far slower attacks than Link can ever have. To Link, Dedede is a character he can combo and juggle for days, and in a tournament where I fought a great Dedede player, I actually Zero-to-Death'd the guy, four times! These were matches after he beat my Bowser, and when I whipped Link out, he had no chance, because I knew how to fight Dedede, even though he knew how to fight Link.

Dedede has a lot of good things like his combos and some edge-guarding ability, as well as extremely powerful attacks and early KOs, but I've found out how to beat D3 a long time ago, and it's just by exploiting his large, heavy, fast-falling body itself and his slow attacks. Link even has a lot of combos and strings available to him when he goes against D3 that don't normally happen when he's fighting other characters; these include D-Throw > Spin Attack, U-Throw > U-Tilt/U-Smash and especially a lot of his normal combos that don't normally work when an opponent is around 70%.

Dedede is borderline 80:20, however, and I considered him that, but based on my MU experience and knowledge, he's more of a 90:10 to me due to my experience against him. I haven't even met a good D3 player who can actually beat me, but if that day comes, I'll reconsider.

Radical Larry This is not an entirely disagreeable chart as far as I'm concerned. My issue is that you open with a disclaimer that basically says "if you don't agree, frig off". The purpose of sharing these is to start discussion. Shutting down discussion is pretty silly.

Also I can't help but think these charts are the new tier lists, and that they are going to muck up this thread in time. Just as the tier list posts in the same vein did in older threads.

Sorry about the old disclaimer; I made that on a rather ignorant whim. I removed it because I kind of do want to go into a discussion about it, instead of blocking out people. What do you not agree with?

 

[zeldasmash]

Question: How does Link lose to Kirby? Kirby cannot contend with his range and projectiles and will die in a few hits and Kirby doesn't have the mobility or range to properly approach Link. Sure, up close he loses, but Link can keep Kirby away for days and he doesn't have a lot of ways to reliably approach. I might be wrong, but i don't think Link loses to Kirby.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Think of this; Dedede has the second highest fall speed and the lowest aerial mobility in the game, as well as far slower attacks than Link can ever have. To Link, Dedede is a character he can combo and juggle for days, and in a tournament where I fought a great Dedede player, I actually Zero-to-Death'd the guy, four times! These were matches after he beat my Bowser, and when I whipped Link out, he had no chance, because I knew how to fight Dedede, even though he knew how to fight Link.

That's a bit like me stating the time when I managed to two stock a Rosalina as Marth because I knew the matchup as a way to say Marth totally beats Rosalina... doesn't prove anything. The matchup is still relatively even. Could have just been lack of matchup knowledge.

I don't know much about either character, but I know enough to know that Dedede v Link is not as volatile as you make it out to be. Sure, Link wins, but not as much as 90:10. 80:20 would be more acceptable, but even that would also be debatable.

 

[C0rvus]

Think of this; Dedede has the second highest fall speed and the lowest aerial mobility in the game, as well as far slower attacks than Link can ever have. To Link, Dedede is a character he can combo and juggle for days, and in a tournament where I fought a great Dedede player, I actually Zero-to-Death'd the guy, four times! These were matches after he beat my Bowser, and when I whipped Link out, he had no chance, because I knew how to fight Dedede, even though he knew how to fight Link.

Dedede has a lot of good things like his combos and some edge-guarding ability, as well as extremely powerful attacks and early KOs, but I've found out how to beat D3 a long time ago, and it's just by exploiting his large, heavy, fast-falling body itself and his slow attacks. Link even has a lot of combos and strings available to him when he goes against D3 that don't normally happen when he's fighting other characters; these include D-Throw > Spin Attack, U-Throw > U-Tilt/U-Smash and especially a lot of his normal combos that don't normally work when an opponent is around 70%.

Dedede is borderline 80:20, however, and I considered him that, but based on my MU experience and knowledge, he's more of a 90:10 to me due to my experience against him. I haven't even met a good D3 player who can actually beat me, but if that day comes, I'll reconsider.



Sorry about the old disclaimer; I made that on a rather ignorant whim. I removed it because I kind of do want to go into a discussion about it, instead of blocking out people. What do you not agree with?

I think it's interesting that you put Pac Man as a losing matchup. I feel like Links consistent disjoint and kill power would be enough to at least make things even. On top of that, Link can put out projectiles at a faster rate than Pac Man, essentially beating him at his own game. Then again, Link may be susceptible to a high level Pac's pressure. I just struggle to see it playing out in Pac Man's favor.
Overall your list seems very biased via your personal experience, and your post clarifying the Dedede MU only solidifies that ideal. That is fine, but know that there is more to the way matchups work than how hard you beat players worse than you.

Edit: LMAO how did I not notice you put Sheik as a winning matchup? I love you Larry but you're crazy haha

 

[Zelder]

Any match up chart that gives Link a winning matchup over Sheik is not worth discussing. It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Smash Brothers 4 on multiple levels.

I don't want to belabor the point, but if Link had a positive match up with Sheik, he'd be the second most used tournament character and everyone would have a pocket Link.

 

[Luco]

I don't really take issue with them as long as the poster is willing to discuss it. The problem is mostly on the subsequent posters who merely go "my character doesn't lose to yours" and that's it. If we are having a discussion, let's have a discussion, you know? I'm almost certainly guilty of doing this myself though lol.
I did find your list in particular to be very agreeable and there was some discourse on Marth and Lucina, which bred it's own little back and forth. Not bad. If only we could get some more space between these charts I guess.

Agreed. MU discussion is more likely to spark positive outcomes than tier lists. You can get good things out of both though - hard results mostly for tier lists, and MU charts often bring character-specific tech to the table which isn't a bad thing for this thread to discuss. I kinda don't know what we're meant to discuss in this thread if it isn't these things - we're not a tech thread (although we touch on it) and the title is 'tier list v1.0 competitive impressions', so it's obviously asking for our interpretation and feedback for that list which will (maybe) help affect the outcome of list 2.0 and further.

When you think about it that way, you could argue tier lists are more relevant to this thread's purpose than MU discussions, but I think we enjoy a good bit of healthy debate about both, the true reason people cringe at the buzzwords 'tier list' and 'MU chart' is when a highly questionable list turns the thread into a wild frenzy that doesn't contribute anything real or informative to the conversation (and my definition of 'informative' is pretty broad too - just saying "Well I think ZSS actually beats Sonic quite hard because of the results we've seen and/or these options beat [x option from Sonic]" ).

 

[C0rvus]

I agree. Tier lists and matchups are both very relevant things to discuss in a sea of red topics. Not sure what else there is to talk about. I suppose all I can remember is the tier list spam with no explanations in older threads. But this is much better than that. It's up to individual posters to keep the discussion above a certain quality.