Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Sonicninja115]

Kirby doesn't beat Mewtwo. Mewtwo has superior air and ground mobility, has the disjoints to keep Kirby out and can edgeguard his recovery well. Kirby can combo him when he's able to get in, but it's tough when Mewtwo is a rather defensively built character and Kirby suffers from having poor approach options. Even when Kirby gets the copy ability it doesn't help much considering Mewtwo can just reflect it back at him.

I also disagree with ZSS being even. I don't see where this comes from, but props to you for not saying Kirby/Sheik is even. I don't see how Kirby beats G&W or Samus either.

I find it hilarious that most people think they beat Mewtwo. He is not a pushover in the slightest.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I wanted to post a Doc MU Spread but since i barely fought or saw half of the matchups being played, i won't.
Anyway, what do you guys think of rn? I'm struggling to see whee he belongs, as he doesn't win much in Nationals, but is a force to be reckoned with in a lot of locals & regionals.

 

[Deleted member]

I find it hilarious that most people think they beat Mewtwo. He is not a pushover in the slightest.

Only other thing as frustrating is when people still think he's bottom 10 or bottom 5, though his public perception has been thankfully improving in recent months.

 

[C0rvus]

I wanted to post a Doc MU Spread but since i barely fought or saw half of the matchups being played, i won't.
Anyway, what do you guys think of rn? I'm struggling to see whee he belongs, as he doesn't win much in Nationals, but is a force to be reckoned with in a lot of locals & regionals.

One of the best players in my college scene plays ROB and in my experience he is a tough matchup for quite a few characters. If you're not faster than him, it's a slog. If you both have projectiles, it's a war of attrition. The thing is, he has enough prevlent weaknesses that you can pretty much always turn a match around against him. He's easy to juggle and pressure offstage. He's got blind spots. His strongest tool, the gyro, can be used against him if he isn't careful with it.

That said, his strengths are there and they matter a lot. His ledge coverage is great. His 50/50 and okay kill throw are important for him to have. He seems very momentum based, which in my mind explains his somewhat inconsistent results despite having very strong players repping him. With this in mind, I see him as an upper mid tier (you know, like half the damn cast). He has some baaad MUs with a few top characters but remains a solid wall for many characters below him, and has the tools to ride out most matchups if the player outplays his opponent with decent consistency. Solid character.

 

[Radical Larry]

Question: How does Link lose to Kirby? Kirby cannot contend with his range and projectiles and will die in a few hits and Kirby doesn't have the mobility or range to properly approach Link. Sure, up close he loses, but Link can keep Kirby away for days and he doesn't have a lot of ways to reliably approach. I might be wrong, but i don't think Link loses to Kirby.

Kirby might have some cons, like what you've explained, but Link can get juggled by Kirby hard; now of course, Kirby's attacks aren't usually safe on shield, with some exceptions, but most Kirby players will get me when I usually try getting them while they're in air (and they end up air dodging into a punish). I can't do my normal techniques against Kirby, but if I started doing a different strategy, Link and Kirby would be even; however, since I do my primary strategy, which is the set ups from Bombs and using impromptu zoning and waiting for the opponent, Link can lose to Kirby since Link gets juggled and combo'd easily. Plus, Kirby is extremely hard to even edge-guard and yet edge-guards Link very well.

I think it's interesting that you put Pac Man as a losing matchup. I feel like Links consistent disjoint and kill power would be enough to at least make things even. On top of that, Link can put out projectiles at a faster rate than Pac Man, essentially beating him at his own game. Then again, Link may be susceptible to a high level Pac's pressure. I just struggle to see it playing out in Pac Man's favor.
Overall your list seems very biased via your personal experience, and your post clarifying the Dedede MU only solidifies that ideal. That is fine, but know that there is more to the way matchups work than how hard you beat players worse than you.

Edit: LMAO how did I not notice you put Sheik as a winning matchup? I love you Larry but you're crazy haha

Well, even if Link has better projectile game, he often can't beat Hydrant and all of Pac-Man's Hydrant shenanigans. On top of that, Pac can get out of Link's D-Throw combos easily with his F3 N-Air and has decent set ups against Link. Off stage, Link can literally get edge-guarded to death if one hit from Pac's F3 N-Air or his B-Air and F-Air connects. Though Link does have boons against Pac-Man with kill power, and even IF I won against players, if I fought a really good one, I know I'd lose against them in a match.

Secondly, biased or not, my experience with various characters gives me my own opinion about them against Link.

Any match up chart that gives Link a winning matchup over Sheik is not worth discussing. It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Smash Brothers 4 on multiple levels.

I don't want to belabor the point, but if Link had a positive match up with Sheik, he'd be the second most used tournament character and everyone would have a pocket Link.

And also, you want to know why Sheik is a winning MU for Link? Why I think Link is the only "low" tier character that can take Sheik on and win? That's actually worth discussing more than you would think; and no, I don't have a misunderstanding of Smash 4. Just because a character can beat Sheik in someone's opinion doesn't mean that the character is going to be used in tournaments. Just let me give my take.

So let me tell you something about this: Never have I been defeated by a Sheik player. Not one time, no matter where I went, has a Sheik player actually taken me down, whether it was a tournament, Anther's or any good FG player. While I loathe MK and R.O.B, Sheik is a character who has never, ever been a problem with my Link whatsoever. Why? Because I know how to fight a Sheik player efficiently and know about her weaknesses.

So what's going on, then? Why do I think this way?

Look, Link might be harmed by Sheik's great combo ability, her throw combos and even susceptible to being edge-guarded by Sheik and hurt by her needles, killed by Vanish and so forth, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Sheik beats Link. In fact, it might actually be the other way around. Aside from Sheik's usual quips, what more is there for her against Link?

Link, on the other hand, has a surprise when it comes to CQC, which he can win if he manages to activate his attacks before Sheik does. What I mean is, if Sheik goes for a dash attack or dash grab, Link's Spin Attack works wonders for its speed. If Sheik goes with any aerial, Link's U-Tilt or U-Smash will work, depending on how much distance there is. Link is no slouch despite his frame data, because even if his attacks are slow, they are some of the most powerful in the game, and even if Sheik makes just one minor mistake, she's gone.

With recovery, Link can actually challenge Sheik's recoveries; if Sheik goes for a Vanish, Link can go for a D-Air into a potential "No-Tech Zone" stage spike. If Sheik goes for a Bouncing Fish, she's dead thanks to Link's F-Air and its range and knockback. At 50%, she won't recover from it unless she has a second jump. Furthermore, if Sheik aims for the stage with Vanish, it's not like Link's going to be where she's going to re-appear; he'll be slightly to the side, just so he can grab, F-Smash or Spin Attack her.

With Sheik's aerial options, she actually has some very poor options when coming to the ground against Link. While ZSS has Flip Jump and Ryu has Focus Attack, if Sheik uses up her Bouncing Fish and second jump, the only remote things she has left are her D-Air, which can be beaten by Link's U-Air or F-Smash (if she lands), her Needles, which are not good in the air or Vanish, which would only lead back to the F-Smash or Spin Attack.

Let's talk about platforms. If Link is under Sheik in a platform, expect a shield being broken after two F-Tilts and an F-Air if a Sheik player, if on Battlefield for example, stays in shield too long. If they roll, F-Air will hit them. If they jump to another platform before Link can pull out F-Air, Link might use a different aerial or attack altogether. Link is really good under the platforms and if he blocks while he's above Sheik, who might use B-Air, F-Air, U-Air or N-Air, he can punish with a swift Spin Attack, U-Smash or D-Smash.

Link's also got his Bomb set ups, which are actually tremendous against Sheik on contact; they'll lead into combos or potentially even Sheik's death if Link is spaced just right.

As for get ups, I forgot to mention Link's three best get ups. Link has F-Air, which despite being F14, is still very powerful against Sheik when he gets back up. He also has Z-Air, which, if both hits connect, can lead into a grab by Link (I've figured out from new matches that Z-Air can lead into a grab on opponents). He lastly has Bombs, which just makes Sheik either shield for a potential grab or get hit for a potential follow up.

Lastly before I leave, Link's N-Air is a decent move against Sheik for its power and its dirty, late hit, which allows Sheik to fall onto the ground without a tech and Link to potentially F-Tilt or F-Smash her. In the end, I've used all of this to beat all of my Sheik player opponents, and it's my opinion that Link can potentially defeat Sheik in the game, and might be the only character to do it. If not 60:40, 55:45 in Link's favor would be the lowest for the opinionated MU. Sheik's not impossible for Link.

 

[Vipermoon]

I can't believe it.

Ummm there is no MU Lucina does better than Marth. And of course, there are some MUs Marth does better.

And I really shouldn't have to explain these things. In short, Lucina wants tippers just as much as Marth does (unless a guaranteed punish is involved in which case her punish potential is less anyway).

 

[Mario766]

Why does this entire post sound like

"MAN! I've never been beaten by anyone in my area. I must be the best player ever! I'm gonna go to X tournament and win!"

Then they get 0-2'd in bracket and wonder why it happened.

You clearly, if you have 'never lost to a Sheik as Link', 100 percent have never played a Sheik outside of low-mid level of play.

I can bop any low-mid Sheiks as Ike, does it mean Ike wins the MU?


HELL NO.

 

[bc1910]

Kirby might have some cons, like what you've explained, but Link can get juggled by Kirby hard; now of course, Kirby's attacks aren't usually safe on shield, with some exceptions, but most Kirby players will get me when I usually try getting them while they're in air (and they end up air dodging into a punish). I can't do my normal techniques against Kirby, but if I started doing a different strategy, Link and Kirby would be even; however, since I do my primary strategy, which is the set ups from Bombs and using impromptu zoning and waiting for the opponent, Link can lose to Kirby since Link gets juggled and combo'd easily. Plus, Kirby is extremely hard to even edge-guard and yet edge-guards Link very well.



Well, even if Link has better projectile game, he often can't beat Hydrant and all of Pac-Man's Hydrant shenanigans. On top of that, Pac can get out of Link's D-Throw combos easily with his F3 N-Air and has decent set ups against Link. Off stage, Link can literally get edge-guarded to death if one hit from Pac's F3 N-Air or his B-Air and F-Air connects. Though Link does have boons against Pac-Man with kill power, and even IF I won against players, if I fought a really good one, I know I'd lose against them in a match.

Secondly, biased or not, my experience with various characters gives me my own opinion about them against Link.



And also, you want to know why Sheik is a winning MU for Link? Why I think Link is the only "low" tier character that can take Sheik on and win? That's actually worth discussing more than you would think; and no, I don't have a misunderstanding of Smash 4. Just because a character can beat Sheik in someone's opinion doesn't mean that the character is going to be used in tournaments. Just let me give my take.

So let me tell you something about this: Never have I been defeated by a Sheik player. Not one time, no matter where I went, has a Sheik player actually taken me down, whether it was a tournament, Anther's or any good FG player. While I loathe MK and R.O.B, Sheik is a character who has never, ever been a problem with my Link whatsoever. Why? Because I know how to fight a Sheik player efficiently and know about her weaknesses.

So what's going on, then? Why do I think this way?

Look, Link might be harmed by Sheik's great combo ability, her throw combos and even susceptible to being edge-guarded by Sheik and hurt by her needles, killed by Vanish and so forth, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Sheik beats Link. In fact, it might actually be the other way around. Aside from Sheik's usual quips, what more is there for her against Link?

Link, on the other hand, has a surprise when it comes to CQC, which he can win if he manages to activate his attacks before Sheik does. What I mean is, if Sheik goes for a dash attack or dash grab, Link's Spin Attack works wonders for its speed. If Sheik goes with any aerial, Link's U-Tilt or U-Smash will work, depending on how much distance there is. Link is no slouch despite his frame data, because even if his attacks are slow, they are some of the most powerful in the game, and even if Sheik makes just one minor mistake, she's gone.

With recovery, Link can actually challenge Sheik's recoveries; if Sheik goes for a Vanish, Link can go for a D-Air into a potential "No-Tech Zone" stage spike. If Sheik goes for a Bouncing Fish, she's dead thanks to Link's F-Air and its range and knockback. At 50%, she won't recover from it unless she has a second jump. Furthermore, if Sheik aims for the stage with Vanish, it's not like Link's going to be where she's going to re-appear; he'll be slightly to the side, just so he can grab, F-Smash or Spin Attack her.

With Sheik's aerial options, she actually has some very poor options when coming to the ground against Link. While ZSS has Flip Jump and Ryu has Focus Attack, if Sheik uses up her Bouncing Fish and second jump, the only remote things she has left are her D-Air, which can be beaten by Link's U-Air or F-Smash (if she lands), her Needles, which are not good in the air or Vanish, which would only lead back to the F-Smash or Spin Attack.

Let's talk about platforms. If Link is under Sheik in a platform, expect a shield being broken after two F-Tilts and an F-Air if a Sheik player, if on Battlefield for example, stays in shield too long. If they roll, F-Air will hit them. If they jump to another platform before Link can pull out F-Air, Link might use a different aerial or attack altogether. Link is really good under the platforms and if he blocks while he's above Sheik, who might use B-Air, F-Air, U-Air or N-Air, he can punish with a swift Spin Attack, U-Smash or D-Smash.

Link's also got his Bomb set ups, which are actually tremendous against Sheik on contact; they'll lead into combos or potentially even Sheik's death if Link is spaced just right.

As for get ups, I forgot to mention Link's three best get ups. Link has F-Air, which despite being F14, is still very powerful against Sheik when he gets back up. He also has Z-Air, which, if both hits connect, can lead into a grab by Link (I've figured out from new matches that Z-Air can lead into a grab on opponents). He lastly has Bombs, which just makes Sheik either shield for a potential grab or get hit for a potential follow up.

Lastly before I leave, Link's N-Air is a decent move against Sheik for its power and its dirty, late hit, which allows Sheik to fall onto the ground without a tech and Link to potentially F-Tilt or F-Smash her. In the end, I've used all of this to beat all of my Sheik player opponents, and it's my opinion that Link can potentially defeat Sheik in the game, and might be the only character to do it. If not 60:40, 55:45 in Link's favor would be the lowest for the opinionated MU. Sheik's not impossible for Link.

This can be summed up with "I can beat my friend's Sheik so Link wins".

In fairness, I respect you for actually explaining yourself. You have garnered/will garner criticism for this post and your opinion of Link vs Sheik in general, but the detractors (including myself, I fully admit) will not go into anywhere near as much detail when trying to debunk your claims. They'll merely write you off.

Thing is, they don't need to go into detail because there is no evidence whatsoever to support what you are saying. You are the king of (biased) theory. If Link beat Sheik, especially with a +2 advantage as you're suggesting, someone, anyone, would have noticed by now. Link would be a fixture in tourneys and a highly recommended pocket for beating the best character in the game.

If you're going to suggest something like this you NEED to back it up with evidence. And there just isn't any. At the very least, a video of you fighting a competent Sheik, preferably offline, would help with your claims.

 

[williamsga555]

There is no chance that Link is a gatekeeper of Dedede. None at all.

Link wins, but I'd dare say I think it's by no more than +1. With enough debate I could see myself granting a +2, but certainly no higher unless some sort of specific tech is discovered that renders the matchup silly.

Again, just like in every discussion we've had of your characters vs. D3, you overstate his disadvantage. It's below average, but not miserable. I would argue every super heavyweight gets juggled harder (maaaaybe not DK because of how good up b is) than he does, for a very brief example. Even with the worst airspeed in the cast, multijumps are legit for escaping strings. Not infallible, but legit nonetheless.

Additionally he's one of the hardest characters to edgeguard in the cast. Unless you can go super deep, you cannot challenge Dedede recovering low. It just doesn't work. I don't care how scary fair, bair, dair, or bombs might be for a majority of the cast offstage, because none of those break super armor, and Link can't go low enough to combat the startup of it.

I don't want to continue the trend of posting matchup charts for concern of disrupting discussion, but I believe very strongly that Dedede's matchup spread isn't as miserable as a lot of people think. He loses to most of the cast, yes, but I hold he has a pretty small number of -2s, and I might even be bold enough to say he has no -3s (ZSS pushes this, and theorycraft land tells me Bayo might as well). Link is at least a -1, but absolutely not worse than -2.



Apologies for another Dedede wall of text, by the by. Maybe I should start spoilering these in the future.

 

[Mario766]

D3 isn't that hard to edgeguard from below. He's suspectible to 2 frames, even for just damage then he is still on the ledge with no real ways to get up very safely and has to deal with trumps and mix-ups. Just because I can't go out and hit you safely doesn't mean I can't edgeguard you/stop you from getting up.

Though I'm an Ike main and everything I say doesn't matter because you still take an Eruption for free.

 

[lunaticz0r]

when will bayonetta and corrin be included?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Expected Matchups​

Character Spread for Top Players in Order of Popularity and Tiers​

For those top players attending the event, there will be a lot of matchups players rarely see on a top level. Three players using King Dedede, two using Greninja, two using Samus, and one using a recently buffed Roy should all prove interesting. Plus one of the best Zelda players in the world is attending alongside a Mii Brawler and Lucario. This could be a great opportunity to see how some of these characters stack up against the best in the game.

Fortunately, there are plenty of top tiers in attendance as well. Unsurprisingly the most common character among top players is Sheik and plenty are in attendance. However more curiously are the large numbers of Fox and Diddy Kong players. Higher tiered characters like Zero Suit Samus and Pikachu have to have their numbers combined to reach as many of those characters, not to mention the small numbers of Rosalina and Ness. Could it be these characters are simply more complex so they have less representation? Plus there is a mysterious lack of Cloud, Ryu, and Meta Knight to consider. It could simply be regional differences, but with such a unique character spread, maybe some of these characters have a tougher time competing. Plus the newest DLC characters are NOT legal, so no brand new Bayonetta or Corrin mains will be there to shake up the bracket.

From the front page. I wanted to share this simply because this tournament is going to be awesome and the character spread is REALLY interesting.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I like Larry's spirit. He has the passion and dedication to be among the best Links, although he might be wrong about this.

Most of Links mentioned advantages seem predicated on Sheik screwing up a lot. But Link is among the characters who can least afford to screw up out of the whole cast. His moves are extremely powerful but extremely punishable. In theory, if he activates his moves at the right time, he can beat Sheik, but Sheik on the other hand can whiff and not be punished. Sheik can come in your face and F-air then F-tilt then F-tilt then F-air, F-air, F-tilt, F-air, etc. It's really hard to stop that unless the Sheik makes a mistake. People like Zero, Vinnie, Mr. R aren't going to screw up very often if at all.

I'm someone who also believes that my main has a 'good' Sheik MU, but all the tournament circuit Yoshi's are saying it's his worst MU. I find that to be kind of ridiculous. I consider Bowser Jr. or even Link a worst MU for Yoshi than Shiek (which I'm kind of confused what Yoshi does to beat Link that Sheik can't). They have more experience that me though, having been bodied by better Sheiks that I've ever played. They know something that I don't though because I'm a wifi scrub, so for now I'll just take their word for it.

Still, it's good to think of ways you can beat Sheik. The character isn't unbeatable, but one have to respect that the cream of the crop is not going to make mistakes of the nature Larry describes. The only way to prove that Link/Yoshi have good Sheik MU is for one of NA's top 3 Sheiks get bodied by Link/Yoshi.

 

[Solfiner]

From the front page. I wanted to share this simply because this tournament is going to be awesome and the character spread is REALLY interesting.

My friend M from Sweden is there, he might actually use some Shulk as well which should be interesting. Fox is his go to choice though because he obviously has an easier time.

 

[L9999]

when will bayonetta and corrin be included?

Give it a couple months so the hype can settle down.

From the front page. I wanted to share this simply because this tournament is going to be awesome and the character spread is REALLY interesting.

Finally they decides on plausible Mii rules. I would like it better any moveset, no moveset counterpicking, but anything is good.

 

[Jams.]

If your recovery legesnaps and carries you a decent distance, your recovery is nowhere near Cloud tier. It's honestly that simple. If Corrin had Falcon's Up B, his recovery would still be better. As it happens his recovery has a hitbox and startup invincibility, and he has a bunch of recovery mixups as well. Their recoveries are in different leagues.

Also, don't challenge Cloud's Dair. Punish his landings instead. That's where his disadvantage falls apart.

With proper Limit management, his recovery is only abysmal half the time, while the other half of the time it's decent. He also has a fairly safe high recovery if he has access to that option. It was definitely an exaggeration to say Corrin's recovery is near Cloud tier, but I still believe that it's an abuse-able weakness of the character.

You can punish (almost) any character's landings. Cloud's dair simply takes away the option of chasing him in most circumstances. My choice of characters probably plays into this, since ROB and Rosalina don't usually need to worry about having their uairs be challenged by another character's dair. Cloud's dair also autocancels the frame after the hitbox ends, so it's not an incredibly free landing punish.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Man, whenever people talk about MUs, I wish they'd post more videos of players actually doing it.

Theorycrafting , or whatever it's called, is......well I think we mostly know it's something that shouldn't ALWAYS be taken so seriously, at least I don't think.

You can say this character has all this over them, or this is a huge thing in a MU, but if you were to truly play the MU, how MUCH would these things TRULY matter?

I mean, I'm just saying, isn't theory stuff, mostly.......lackluster sometimes?

 

[Radical Larry]

This can be summed up with "I can beat my friend's Sheik so Link wins".

In fairness, I respect you for actually explaining yourself. You have garnered/will garner criticism for this post and your opinion of Link vs Sheik in general, but the detractors (including myself, I fully admit) will not go into anywhere near as much detail when trying to debunk your claims. They'll merely write you off.

Thing is, they don't need to go into detail because there is no evidence whatsoever to support what you are saying. You are the king of (biased) theory. If Link beat Sheik, especially with a +2 advantage as you're suggesting, someone, anyone, would have noticed by now. Link would be a fixture in tourneys and a highly recommended pocket for beating the best character in the game.

If you're going to suggest something like this you NEED to back it up with evidence. And there just isn't any. At the very least, a video of you fighting a competent Sheik, preferably offline, would help with your claims.

Alright, let's get the first thing off. None of the people who played Sheik against me were friends; not in tournaments, not in online, not anywhere. I will tell you that they were people I met, but not friends in the long run.

Secondly, I know people often write me off for what I post, nothing new. I just base my opinions mostly from my own experience.

Thirdly, Link would be a fixture in tournaments and a highly recommended pocket, but he still has MUs against other characters who he struggles against or are even. Even though he may be the Sheik defeater, in my opinion, Link still has even or troublesome MUs against certain characters who might be able to beat him at his own game. Sheik specifically being a good MU for Link wouldn't automatically make him a good pocket character, especially since he won't get much tournament representation for the current tier list and how hard he is to master. However, to my end, I play Link because I will stick with him.

Lastly, for the evidence, I'll go against a competent Sheik of my level, if not many of them, and record footage of that, thanks to the YouTube submission part of the game. It may most likely be online, but I'll do my best to put it in the most lagless time of the day for my home. I'll even go to more tournaments offline and throughout my state and expand and broaden my horizons. That and I'm going to go to EVO when the time comes.

 

[Zelder]

Even if Link had a 5:95 match up against every other character in the game, even if Link auto-suicided against every non-Sheik character in the game, it would still pay to have a pocket Link because Sheik is the most popular, most dominant character in the game.

 

[Radical Larry]

And alright, I'll also admit this; I have high spirits for Link and, like Y YoshiYoshi said, I could be among the top Link players through dedication; I main Link and can play him primarily to get even better with him, eventually getting better through tournaments and maybe rise to one of the top players one day. However, I want to say that yes, I screwed up my MU chart and upon hearing evidences of things, I will actually revise my chart to something more acceptable.

Here it is, from people reminding me of some MUs, the revised list:


I changed it after some further review and some convincing, and it's a change from the worse one from before. By no means is it perfect, but after some review of others (and the fact that I remember my matches), I've fixed it up.

 

[williamsga555]

Genuine question I have now on the other side of this revised list: as a fairly avid R.O.B. player on the side, why do you think that matchup is so poor for Link? Just curious, really, as I don't have any experience of that particular matchup, and nothing immediately strikes me as horrible for either side.

 

[Mario766]

iight.

6-4 against Cloud
Beating Ike
Even suggesting even with Sheik.


I'm dying over here.

 

[AxelVDP]

Radical Larry I can ASSURE you that the Link matchup is not nearly as bad for Little Mac. It's a -1 or -2 at worst.
One of our best players (like, top 2 in our country) plays Link and Toon Link and I get to play him fairly frequently (also in tourney settings, not only friendlies).
I'm an average players at best, and nonetheless our matches never feel super desperate and one sided. (I also managed to sneak in a win in some rare occasions, even tho he's much better than me)

I'd dare to say that Mac does not have -3 matchups (MAYBE Peach and Pikachu, but I don't really have much experience in those matchups), he has a handful of -2s, a lot of -1s and even matchups and some +1s (not a lot tho)

By lurking the thread in the past I've noticed that you usually get blinded by your own experiences and ideas and don't really pay attention to others' opinion, being passionate and ambitious is fine, but you should try to be a little more humble and broaden your views a little, do not dismiss criticism, be open to it, try to understand why you are (often) being told such things and improve on those areas, that's one of the basic rules for personal growth (and also useful for holding a civil and proper conversation)

btw I might actually post my opinion on Mac's matchup now that the thread has taken this kind of course

 

[C0rvus]

Radical Larry I can ASSURE you that the Link matchup is not nearly as bad for Little Mac. It's a -1 or -2 at worst.
One of our best players (like, top 2 in our country) plays Link and Toon Link and I get to play him fairly frequently (also in tourney settings, not only friendlies).
I'm an average players at best, and nonetheless our matches never feel super desperate and one sided. (I also managed to sneak in a win in some rare occasions, even tho he's much better than me)

I'd dare to say that Mac does not have -3 matchups (MAYBE Peach and Pikachu, but I don't really have much experience in those matchups), he has a handful of -2s, a lot of -1s and even matchups and some +1s (not a lot tho)

By lurking the thread in the past I've noticed that you usually get blinded by your own experiences and ideas and don't really pay attention to others' opinion, being passionate and ambitious is fine, but you should try to be a little more humble and broaden your views a little, do not dismiss criticism, be open to it, try to understand why you are (often) being told such things and improve on those areas, that's one of the basic rules for personal growth (and also useful for holding a civil and proper conversation)

btw I might actually post my opinion on Mac's matchup now that the thread has taken this kind of course

I'd actually be super interested in a Mac MU chart. Every Mac player seems to play differently and their opinions tend to vary based on their play style. Could be a very interesting talking point. Mac seems to me to be an engine for reads, like Vermanubis says of Ganondorf, so his MUs while largely bad, are easily swung in momentum.

 

[FullMoon]

View attachment 97651

Some notes:

• I don't believe there's any MUs where Dedede is at a whopping advantage. Dedede is one of the characters in the game that benefits most from lack of MU knowledge since he's so highly underrepresented and most people are at a loss dealing with his tools when they first get to facing him. Once you do learn how to fight Dedede though, you realize how heavily flawed his neutral and approach options are.

I can really vouch for that part in the quote from the experience I had with D3

My first offline tournament I was taken out by a Dedede player at GFs because I had no idea what I was doing and made a bunch of stupid mistakes.

Second tournament, however, I had to face the same player again and after adjusting to the MU, I managed to beat him 2-0 and 2 stocked him both games (though the second one he switched to a pocket Sheik, still, I forced him out of his main). Dedede really runs a lot on MU inexperience to get around and he kinda crashes and burns once the opponent figures him out.

Granted, according to your MU chart Dedede loses -2 to Greninja lol.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd actually be super interested in a Mac MU chart. Every Mac player seems to play differently and their opinions tend to vary based on their play style. Could be a very interesting talking point. Mac seems to me to be an engine for reads, like Vermanubis says of Ganondorf, so his MUs while largely bad, are easily swung in momentum.

I'm not a Mac player, but it seems to me that any given matchup vs. him would be heavily dependent on the stage. Even something (presumably) lopsided like Sheik vs. Mac will play out very differently on FD than on Duck Hunt, for instance.

Drawbacks of having such polarized strengths/weaknesses, I guess?

 

[Asdioh]

I don't mean to start a debate on what format is used to denote matchups, but does anyone else think "+1, -2" etc. is a silly measurement? The fact that it uses numbers means it's measuring some kind of unit, but what does "+1 Mario's favor" actually mean? Mario wins by +1 what?

I'm reminded of this every time:

Spoiler

I think there's a more productive way to do this matchup chart business. It will take a little more effort and critical thinking, but that's a sacrifice you should be willing to make if you're trying to make a not-garbage post in here!
Instead of just flat out listing "here are my main's matchups" with little room for explanation, I think it'd be best to go into more detail.
Note: I tried using the tier list maker to do this, but I gave up because it's really tedious, and it's more clear and efficient to just do it in text format here.



So for the matchup chart, I'm operating on the assumption that there are three main aspects to any match: Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage. I think it's safe to say that this is commonly accepted as fact in fighting game communities, including Smash. If you disagree that this is a good way to rate matchups (more) objectively, please tell me why.


The format looks like this:

Character1 vs Character2
Neutral: Rating, followed by explanation.
Advantage: Same as above.
Disadvantage: Same as above.

^ With that format, you should be able to come to a reasonable conclusion on how the matchup is overall. My biggest question about this is, are all 3 parts treated equally? Is neutral more important than any other aspect, or does an unusually good advantage state even out a poor neutral state, etcetera? That's a discussion topic, I suppose!


Also, as a rating system, I'll use words, rather than numbers. Ratios are too specific for my taste; I won't pretend to know enough about matchups to give a precise number. Since I'm already using "advantage" and "disadvantage" to describe states of gameplay, I'd use something like: weak, somewhat weak, standard, somewhat strong, strong. Also, since "even" doesn't make sense when talking about advantage/disadvantage states, a word like "average" or "standard" would make more sense to describe what to expect in those states.


Describing the states:

Neutral: How does (character) fare in the neutral against this opponent? When both players want to land a hit on the other, but neither is in a notably advantageous position, who has a safer/more reliable chance to get the ball rolling?
edit: also fun things to note, stages! Thanks for reminding me ParanoidDrone

Advantage: When (character) knocks this opponent offstage, gets them into a corner they don't want to be in, starts a juggle, forces a tech/tripchase, breaks their comfort zone, or any other scenario where the opponent is in a position they want to escape from, how threatening are its capabilities? How likely is it that it will get more damage, or a stock, before the opponent returns to safety?
Potential extra topic: How does this advantage state compare to what other characters could expect to get in the same situation? Strength in advantage/disadvantage is kind of relative to what other characters could expect to achieve.

Disadvantage: Same as advantage, but reversed.


~For Example~

's matchup against
Neutral: Strong against Sheik. Crouch stops literally everything Sheik could hope to attempt. Sheik will never even hit Kirby.
Advantage: Strong against Sheik. Sheik's fallspeed makes her susceptible to combos, Kirby can easily get her from 0-50% or higher with inescapable combos. His Dair is strong against her 2 frame ledge grab if she's forced to recover low. His damage potential against her is high relative to what he can do against most characters, and from her point of view, she receives more damage against him compared to most characters, making it clearly one of the strongest advantage states in the game. Bouncing Fish? What's that?
Disadvantage: Strong against Sheik. Doesn't matter, Sheik will never hit Kirby.
Overall, I'd say the matchup is basically a guaranteed win for Kirby. He should JV3 every Sheik, if he puts a little effort in.


I was going to do a few serious matchup discussions (Like against Link, I think Kirby has an exceptionally poor neutral in that matchup, a fairly strong advantage state, and a somewhat average disadvantage state, making it overall fairly even, or possibly slightly in Link's favor) but I took too long trying to explain the process. Hopefully someone will read this and think "hey this is a pretty good idea, maybe I should go into more detail, instead of making a random matchup chart that people will just glaze over!"

tl;dr split your matchup discussion into 3 parts and you'll find yourself critically thinking about the matchups more, forcing you to give a more honest assessment, and be less spammy. Most of the posts in here lately are radically... bad.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I don't have enough time at the moment to go into full details on Mac's MUs but I'll address some of his advantageous MUs and maybe a couple even ones.
Advantageous-
Zelda, Robin (Robin's gotten more even as time goes on but Robin kinda struggles when Mac gets in), DHD, Dedede, Kirby (better neutral), Ganondorf, Palutena, Jigglypuff (better neutral, but wall of pain hurts)

Even-
C. Falcon (they both body each other, it just dependent on who can do it first), I wanna say Bowser but he's been buffed, could be moreso in Bowser's favor now. No one else immediately comes to mind.

Something to note is that Mac doesn't get entirely destroyed by Sheik. Mac's neutral is better than Sheik's (crazy huh? But Mac was intentionally designed to have a godsend neutral soo). Mac combos sheik hard, Sheik does what everyone else does.
Needles disregard KO Punch shenanigans though so it's still a losing MU but it's workable.

 

[Mario766]

Ike solidly beats D3.

F-Air Buff further escalates the problem that Ike doesn't have to even get close to D3, and still can wall him out with faster hitboxes.

Add on better combos plus better damage racking + faster killing

Yikes.

 

[R3D3MON]

What are Little Mac mains' opinions on PP up-tilt as an approach tool? ZeRo's video seems to suggest it as a valid method of approaching now because of his up-tilt buffs.

 

[Mario766]

It's basically the same on shield, as it isn't safer on shield, it just covers better on Little Mac.

Okay, it's 1 frame safer.

It still has 20 frames of endlag, so you can still punish it on shield.

 

[C0rvus]

PP ultilt seems to be a very solid combo starter with decent range. Idk about approaching with it, but as a punish tool it can go farther than down tilt but still lead into damage.

 

[Mario766]

Fast fallers get comboed like 3 times at 0 from up-tilt, then it leads into other things.

It's a fantastic punish tool

Not so much for an approach tool.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Frame 4-10 Utilt that will cause shieldstun however slight, with 20 frames of lag.

Adding standard reaction time of 10-11 frames, that's roughly 16-17 frames of being safe.

And then Mac has a frame 4 Ftilt 1 that can't be overpowered.

I dunno, PP Utilt into turnaround Ftilt could be mighty useful.

 

[Radical Larry]

Genuine question I have now on the other side of this revised list: as a fairly avid R.O.B. player on the side, why do you think that matchup is so poor for Link? Just curious, really, as I don't have any experience of that particular matchup, and nothing immediately strikes me as horrible for either side.

Well, Link can't take ROB's combo game; that's his biggest weakness against ROB, as well as Link's lower mobility and inability to beat ROB's projectile spamming. Though I have taken on really great ROBs, MU inexperience at first was what made me lose quite a lot, but after fighting many ROBs, I know for a fact that I have enough knowledge to conclude that Link can lose heavily due to Link's falling speed, inability to really escape ROB's combos outside of D-Air, being out-zoned and having a poor time coming into ROB.

Radical Larry I can ASSURE you that the Link matchup is not nearly as bad for Little Mac. It's a -1 or -2 at worst.
One of our best players (like, top 2 in our country) plays Link and Toon Link and I get to play him fairly frequently (also in tourney settings, not only friendlies).
I'm an average players at best, and nonetheless our matches never feel super desperate and one sided. (I also managed to sneak in a win in some rare occasions, even tho he's much better than me)

I'd dare to say that Mac does not have -3 matchups (MAYBE Peach and Pikachu, but I don't really have much experience in those matchups), he has a handful of -2s, a lot of -1s and even matchups and some +1s (not a lot tho)

By lurking the thread in the past I've noticed that you usually get blinded by your own experiences and ideas and don't really pay attention to others' opinion, being passionate and ambitious is fine, but you should try to be a little more humble and broaden your views a little, do not dismiss criticism, be open to it, try to understand why you are (often) being told such things and improve on those areas, that's one of the basic rules for personal growth (and also useful for holding a civil and proper conversation)

btw I might actually post my opinion on Mac's matchup now that the thread has taken this kind of course

Well, I did make a different list for Mac (see the version 2 I made above) and put him at a -2 (statistically, 80:20 is a -2). Link's clearly got a lot of things going for him, including many attacks that exploit Mac's bad recovery, such as F-Tilt, Dash and D-Smash (Back Hit). Link also has a disjointed grab, which isn't good against Mac players. Powerful attacks can also do Little Mac in if read correctly.

Link's Bombs having setups for his aerials or a counter read-and-punish is also good. Little Mac, on the other hand, has stellar frame data and super armor, as well as some very powerful KO moves and speed, but it's due to his bad air game, light weight and recovery, as well as easiness to combo and KO that may do him in.

 

[FallofBrawl]

The thing about Little Mac is that his MUs can fluctuate from disadvantageous to even or advantageous depending on the stage.

EDIT: Agreeing with Larry on some points, Link has the tools to gimp Sheik, he really is like top 3 edge/ledgeguarders in the game. But they really have to read where and when Sheik is going to recover and with which tool. It's a battle of mixups. But I don't think his edgeguarding alone is good enough to make the MU even.

 

[R3D3MON]

Radical Larry
Do you fine ROB's uair and nair to be problematic for Link specifically? Also does ROB's up air beat Link's dair?

 

[AxelVDP]

I'm not a Mac player, but it seems to me that any given matchup vs. him would be heavily dependent on the stage. Even something (presumably) lopsided like Sheik vs. Mac will play out very differently on FD than on Duck Hunt, for instance.

You are not wrong, stages DO play a significant role in Little Mac's matchup, but in the greater scheme of things what usually happens is that you'll end up on the same few stages (almost everybody bans FD, all Macs should also ban SV) so that leaves BF/T&C/DL which are mostly pretty equal (also, T&C and BF are some really good stages for Mac)
where I live we don't have Duck Hunt as a legal stage so I can't really comment on that, but my opinion is that in theory that stage is pretty terrible because Mac has a horrible time dealing with tree camping, in practice, if you manage to keep your lead and not put yourself in a situation where you can be camped, the stage can be actually pretty good thanks to the really big and flat main platform. tl;dr the stage can be chosen IF the opponent does not have great defenses to camp you with and IF you're confident in your ability to not loose the lead (this is why you see some notable Mac Mains choosing this stage)
also, a common misconception is that FD is Mac's best stage, while it's usually pretty damn good there are some matchups where it can favour your opponent more
Personally, my favourite stage is usually T&C



R3D3MON as much as I like Zero as a PLAYER, his video are not exactly a reliable source of information.
In that particoular video he claims a lot of stuff that is flat out untrue
as I wrote on the Mac board before, the main things Mac got from this patch are

FRESH down angled fsmash is now 2 frames safer than before (it's -5 on shield drop, -6 if not fresh but still not quite stale) (for comparison, pre-patch that move was -7 on shield drop)
the added power also means that it has slightly more pushback when blocked, rendering that move even more safe (also, 1 down angled fsmash eats like 60% -24/41- of a healthy shield, that's pretty insane)

thanks to the added extra late hitbox on utilt, that move is also 1 frame safer when properly spaced (it also hits crouching opponents now)
the new angle also makes it a much more potent juggling tool, because now the enemy has less room to DI away and you can follow him more easily
(and yes, it CAN combo into our upB even at high%s, but never at kill%s unless you're on some kind of platform or something, I would not suggest it though, better stick with down tilt for that kind of stuff)

the added dammage on the other 2 variations of fsmash does not give them extra safety on shield, but it makes so that even when staled it does not get as unsafe as before

so yeah... that's about it

regarding PP utilt, yeah it's an acceptable approach option, but I would not hype it up like it usually is
the move is still -10 on shield drop (-9 if you manage to hit with the very last hitbox recently added in the patch)
while the good old down tilt is -5, that's 5 frames safer! and the range is also comparable
the main selling point is that PP utilt has attached to itself the Perfect Pivot part (well, duh), this means that it's a sudo burst movement option (dtilt has to be used while walking or by doing the excessively difficult fox trot -> PP dtilt, aka it's comparatively slower)
also, the arc + trample property of the move give you some sort of safety from certain hitboxes the opponent might throw out

-zip-

Well, the "+/-" system is at least better than the "xx:yy" ratio system
I do agree with the rest of your post though (and as you can see, when talking about the Dedede matchup I kind of did what you suggested), the only problem is that it requires an incredible ammount of work to write things in an ultra precise manner for every character listed

btw here's my opinion on Little Mac's matchups

as you can see, there are a lot of matchups where I'm unsure because I have no experience nor data to analyze
I kind of explained Dedede and Sheik before, so I'll try to briefly talk about some other matchups (not everyone tho)

Spoiler

Captain Falcon
Disadvantageous. Falcon is one of the characters I fear the most. He has the speed to keep up with Little Mac and his down throw is like a nightmare for Mac, If you DI away from him in order to minimize his follow ups you put yourself closer to the edge of the stage/offstage which means you risk of dieing extremely early with a dair spike read or a normal edgeguard attempt, if you DI inwards you get hit by a lot of upairs, and every bit of dammage counts because Mac is light and Falcon has a lot of high kb moves
Our usual combo breakers (upB) (nair is a terrible combo breaker because it's negative on hit, best used as a mixup when the opponent does not expect it) don't really work because he juggles below us, so we almost always have to eat hits
If all of this wasn't enough, Falcon's (rapid) jab sends at a ****ty ass horizzontal trajectory and has high bkb, which means that his f3 move can put us offstage easily even at low %s
His down and up tilts also work wonders to intercept Mac's recovery and they are a free gimp if they hit.
The MU is not unwinnable tho (there are no really unwinnable MUs), our punish game is pretty amazing against a character with physics like Falcon, his recovery is very easy to exploit and we have the tools to try and keep him out.

Ganondorf
I personally feel like Ganondorf is not an easy matchup for Mac, he can abuse of our TERRIBLE tech rolls with his sideB and kills us extremely early with stuff like ftilt.
He can actually play footsies fairly well against us thanks to his powerful and ranged dtilt which cover the space a Mac player would usually try and stay in
Both of our disadvantaged states are terrible, Ganon edgeguard is brutal against Mac (dat uair), but Ganon himself is pretty easily juggled and edgeguarded


Ike
Ike has probably the single best move for Mac edgeguarding in his fsmash, it hits slightly below the egde and does not put Ike in danger of being interrupted by a clipping upB or by a randy sideB.
Eruption and fair are also nightmare fuel for Mac.
aaaaaaand he also has pretty easy ways of throwing Mac offstage
thankfully I believe our neutral is good enough to give Ike some problems at least, so it's not entirely hopeless

Jigglypuff
Disadvantageous. Yes, I'm not joking (sadly). The problem in this MU is that Jigglypuff doesn't give a **** about our best neutral tools like dtilt, also, she has a good dash grab. Our best tool against her is our uptilt, but it can be baited and punished (!!!) thanks to her weaving ability in the air.
She does not really have a disadvantaged state against Mac thanks to her floatiness which renders her almost immune to our combos and she can avoid being juggled by drifting to the ledge and using her multiple jumps carefully
Also, she s hits on us when we're offstage

Little Mac
90:10 for Little Mac

Rosalina
A lot of Mac mains seem to think that this matchup is in our favor, and while I can see that we have pretty good tools to kill luma, our disadvantaged state is too easily exploitable by Rosaluma
She can juggle us for days and we basically have no way to deal with a Luma sitting by the edge jabbing

Villager
This might seem outrageous considering that Villager has an amazing edgeguarding game, BUT his usual zoning tools do not really work against us, and when we get in he does not have super solid answers

 

[LancerStaff]

So, still wondering...

What exactly does Corrin have over the other swordsmen, Pit in particular?

 

[Ffamran]

So, still wondering...

What exactly does Corrin have over the other swordsmen, Pit in particular?

Being glitchy. She's less of a dragon and more of a bug. From here: http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-...are-with-nintendo.430737/page-2#post-20901895.