Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[KuroganeHammer]

If you're able to consistently make reads on your opponent then you'll be able to with with anyone, Ike isn't special in that regard. If "just make hard reads" was a viable strategy or even possible, then characters like Ganondorf and Jigglypuff wouldn't be so bad in this game.

Also **** off smug zelda poster, it's perfectly possible for Zelda to be good keeping her current design. It just isn't going to happen is what I'm saying. If she got better hitboxes, more movement speed, a kill throw, more combos, or whatever else makes a character good in this game then she would be better, all of which are 100% POSSIBLE through patches if whoever was in charge felt like doing that (they wont).

Zelda with her current moveset cannot be good unless she's broken. There's a reason the character has been bottom tier in every Smash game bar, like, Brawl Minus.

 

[sedrf]

Also for a breif moment in pm if that's a real game.
Also Kuro, what makes zelda so hard to balanced.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Also for a breif moment in pm if that's a real game.
Also Kuro, what makes zelda so hard to balanced.

Basically it's like Sakurai ate a bunch of moves and threw up a character.

The character is designed(??) to be defensive, however:

1) Cannot force an approach
2) Has no mobility to get away
3) Has no safe out of shield options <f10

Despite being a "defensive" character, she's been given like, 6 of the strongest knockback moves in the game (why?) that require precise spacing to land (fair/bair) or are too slow to be used effectively (fsmash/uair) or don't have range/safety to be viable options (up b/usmash).

Realistically the only way you could possibly balance Zelda is by giving her a completely new forward air so that she has at least some answer to aerial pressure/able to space moves on peoples shields.

Playing against Zelda as she is now is literally "hold shield simulator". You stand there and either do nothing or you hold shield and she can't do anything. No matter how much you buff her, it'll always be the same because she can't apply pressure due to an awfully designed moveset.

Edit: This probably isn't Sakurai's fault. He probably didn't expect people to play Melee or Brawl competitively but the fact that this is still a problem in Smash 4 is unacceptable tbh.

 

[blackghost]

Trela smashes stubborn people that refuse to run from him.

How the hell does Ryu get an utilt confirm on someone with such mobility and options unless THAT character messes up?

This is a serious question.

Another serious question. How can a character be top tier if they only beat one top tier really and lose to several of the most popular and they are all in the running for top 3 in the game.

This is an obvious answer. That character can not be top tier.

Ryu loses to Sonic, Diddy, Rosalina, Megaman, Yoshi and Cloud.

Those matches pretty much all Ryus agree on. Sheik could be even, but imo he loses.

Losing to Sonic, Diddy, Rosa and Cloud? And Yoshi is SUPER common.

How the hell do you lose to several top tier threats and can still be considered a national threat?

Someone explain the hype to me. I am really waiting.

"Another serious question. How can a character be top tier if they only beat one top tier really and lose to several of the most popular and they are all in the running for top 3 in the game."
that was prepatch bayo thing as well. theory of matchups and how they actually play out aren't the same. ryu is a character like ganon that heavily punishes the smallest of overextensions and whiffed moves. mu on paper never account for that and until you watch a players skill at exploiting that its really hard to account for in a mu on paper.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Random opinion:
The future where some of you imagine Ryu is this absurdly busted character that kills everyone at 60 does not exist. It's the same world where you rely on another player to **** up in order to execute your strategy, which will never be a gameplan that can be relied on against top players.
See: Wobbling.

 

[Djent]

Just an FYI. A game is not balanced if you have to ban, limit, or change how a game is played. Smashers, your done. Don't lie to urselves.

— Chris G (@NYChrisG) July 13, 2016

Is smash inherintley imbalanced

Uhh wait, this interview from 2013 suggests Chris G respects Smash at least to an extent.

Also FYI, Chris is a good guy, but some of the stuff he says is...let's say unique.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm not seeing the problem here. Stages with hazards/walk-offs are banned, stages without aren't.

Well think of it this way, I could consider Town and City's platforms to be hazards. They serve similar functions to Umbra Clock Tower, which is actually banned. Then there's the comparison between Gamer and Arena Ferox, and despite being in different consoles, one is banned and the other isn't, despite the latter providing disruptive obstacles such as walls between characters and caves of life.

Then there's Delfino Plaza, which has a low ceiling and a walk-off, but then you have Prism Tower, which is the same thing, despite being in different consoles, and Prism Tower is legal. The problem is, is that people have double standards within Smash for Wii U and 3DS as a whole, and that needs to stop.

We ban UCT but not Town and City, we ban Gamer but leave Arena Ferox alone, and then we ban Delfino Plaza and let Prism Tower be allowed. There's a huge double standard, and if not that, we have Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat, three versions of the same stage layout, all legal or CP, but Sakurai forbid that Miiverse is tournament legal or CP.

But then again, who wants to point out the double standards when we can just ban more stages into a too-cramped list?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why are you discussing the legality of 3DS stages.....?
Nobody actually cares about that version anymore.

 

[C0rvus]

Speak for yourself. 3DS is the only way I can play with some of my friends, but that's not exactly relevant to competitive I suppose. Prism Tower is a good stage, too. Wouldn't mind it being in the Wii U version.

Speaking of stages, I can see Duck Hunt being banned in time if we continue the trend of conservative stage lists. Many matchups become pretty awful on that stage, and platform camping is 2strong. Especially as the meta moves more and more towards camping, this will become apparent. Kongo 64 was banned in Melee because of how strong the platform camping was for some characters (Peach in particular iirc).

 

[Y2Kay]

Wadi double eliminated Fatality at Xanadu today.

People where talking about Falcon's M2 match up being good, so I brought it up.

 

[ARGHETH]

Well think of it this way, I could consider Town and City's platforms to be hazards. They serve similar functions to Umbra Clock Tower, which is actually banned. Then there's the comparison between Gamer and Arena Ferox, and despite being in different consoles, one is banned and the other isn't, despite the latter providing disruptive obstacles such as walls between characters and caves of life.

Then there's Delfino Plaza, which has a low ceiling and a walk-off, but then you have Prism Tower, which is the same thing, despite being in different consoles, and Prism Tower is legal. The problem is, is that people have double standards within Smash for Wii U and 3DS as a whole, and that needs to stop.

We ban UCT but not Town and City, we ban Gamer but leave Arena Ferox alone, and then we ban Delfino Plaza and let Prism Tower be allowed. There's a huge double standard, and if not that, we have Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat, three versions of the same stage layout, all legal or CP, but Sakurai forbid that Miiverse is tournament legal or CP.

But then again, who wants to point out the double standards when we can just ban more stages into a too-cramped list?

UCT is banned because of the walkoff and several of stages encourages camping. Avoiding T&C's "hazards" consists of not staying on a platform as it moves to the side (aka jump or fall through or literally anything other than staying on)

Arena Ferox isn't banned because 3DS isn't exactly competitive.
Prism Tower is more like Halberd than Delfino, except without the bad parts. Walk-off at the beginning, then a bunch of decent plat stages without hazards or a particularly low ceiling.

...how is Lylat like Battlefield/Dreamland at all? The middle platform being the same height and the tilting are kind of big deals.

Miiverse is legal as an alternative to Battlefield at a bunch of places already (G3 and EVO, at least, allow it)

 

[Strong-Arm]

So apparently Ally said about 2 weeks ago there might be a patch on the 17th. I dont know where he got that and its probably not true but who knows whats gonna happen

 

[PK Gaming]

So apparently Ally said about 2 weeks ago there might be a patch on the 17th. I dont know where he got that and its probably not true but who knows whats gonna happen

I don't want to respond to this since it's horribly off topic, but...

What!?

Like outside of being a really good player, Ally is just some guy. A good rule of thumb is to take any talk about an upcoming patch happening with a grain of salt. Unless Nintendo directly let's us know in advance, it's pretty much pointless to speculate on upcoming patch releases.

 

[Radical Larry]

UCT is banned because of the walkoff and several of stages encourages camping. Avoiding T&C's "hazards" consists of not staying on a platform as it moves to the side (aka jump or fall through or literally anything other than staying on)

Arena Ferox isn't banned because 3DS isn't exactly competitive.
Prism Tower is more like Halberd than Delfino, except without the bad parts. Walk-off at the beginning, then a bunch of decent plat stages without hazards or a particularly low ceiling.

...how is Lylat like Battlefield/Dreamland at all? The middle platform being the same height and the tilting are kind of big deals.

Miiverse is legal as an alternative to Battlefield at a bunch of places already (G3 and EVO, at least, allow it)

Lylat has the same stage layout; main platform with three different sub-platforms above it. That's what Battlefield, Dreamland and Miiverse have, just that Lylat's different with its turning and its vertically squeezed size. Also, wouldn't its turning disrupt a getup option? Some characters rely on letting go of the ledge, jumping and attacking to get back up from the ledge.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Lylat doesnt have the same layout lol. It has slopes on the left and right side and the three platform set up is different as the middle platform is level with the other 2. While that might not sound like much it can make a huge difference. Also the infamously overexageratted tilting is present. Its nothing like DL and BF outside of having 3 platforms. I dont see how its the same at all lol

 

[Radical Larry]

Lylat doesnt have the same layout lol. It has slopes on the left and right side and the three platform set up is different as the middle platform is level with the other 2. While that might not sound like much it can make a huge difference. Also the infamously overexageratted tilting is present. Its nothing like DL and BF outside of having 3 platforms. I dont see how its the same at all lol

Of course it's going to have a different overall structure, but its base structure is that of Battlefield, just with slight differences here and there. I know what you guys are saying, but from a model's perspective, the stage is one of those stages with a 3-Platform Layout. I consider Lylat as a part of the Battlefield setup because it follows the same schematics and base structure as the stages, just different in various other areas. I think there's a name for it that isn't "Battlefield layout", right?

I understand what you guys say, but I associate Lylat into the same group as Battlefield. It's just how I categorize it myself. You guys have different thoughts on it, I do too.

 

[L9999]

Well think of it this way, I could consider Town and City's platforms to be hazards. They serve similar functions to Umbra Clock Tower, which is actually banned. Then there's the comparison between Gamer and Arena Ferox, and despite being in different consoles, one is banned and the other isn't, despite the latter providing disruptive obstacles such as walls between characters and caves of life.

Then there's Delfino Plaza, which has a low ceiling and a walk-off, but then you have Prism Tower, which is the same thing, despite being in different consoles, and Prism Tower is legal. The problem is, is that people have double standards within Smash for Wii U and 3DS as a whole, and that needs to stop.

We ban UCT but not Town and City, we ban Gamer but leave Arena Ferox alone, and then we ban Delfino Plaza and let Prism Tower be allowed. There's a huge double standard, and if not that, we have Battlefield, Dreamland and Lylat, three versions of the same stage layout, all legal or CP, but Sakurai forbid that Miiverse is tournament legal or CP.

But then again, who wants to point out the double standards when we can just ban more stages into a too-cramped list?

I know 3DS meta does not matter unless you are a 3DS Wi-Fi warrior, but, Larry, 3DS has barely any stages. If we are EXTREMELY conservative, it's just FD, Battlefield, and Yoshi's. Almost no one likes Yoshi's because the slopes and random platforms that blur vision, and since most people don't want to get juggled on Battlefield, game 1 it's almost always FD. And then the counterpicks, DH, Lumiose, Dreamland, and Ferox. No one in Earth likes DH in 3DS, it is impossible to die there and if it is against Sanic you are better of drinking black widow poison. Because of the Delfino Plaza/Halberd nature, Prism Tower is almost always disadvantageous and if you fight a character that can exploit the stage (puffballs, rushdowns, Peach) it is banned inmediately. So that leaves Ferox, or as I like to call it, Arena Comeback. Yes, the stage has cave of life, a lot of chance to camp, etc, but that's the charm to it, it allows some thinking, the music is hype, it has tension of how % skyrockets, the different layouts allow for more dynamic strategies and mindgames (it is not just camping) and the transformations don't last much anyways. I know it can be annoying to fight a runaway player, but that gameplan can be punished. And if it is advantageous for campy/turtle characters, then it is banned, period. Dreamland is BF, but people go there because the music is hype. Ferox and Prism are there because there are no stages and they are the closest thing to a legal stage, Ferox is cool for what we can get, Prism is filler, if it were to be taken out no one would care.

 

[Kofu]

This is off-topic but Prism Tower is easily the tamest of the transforming stages in Smash 4. Its only "problematic" transformation is the starting one since it's a walk-off but you barely play on it so it's usually a non-issue.

If you want it banned you've got next to no stage flexibility.

 

[ぱみゅ]

This is off-topic but Prism Tower is easily the tamest of the transforming stages in Smash 4. Its only "problematic" transformation is the starting one since it's a walk-off but you barely play on it so it's usually a non-issue.

If you want it banned you've got next to no stage flexibility.

To be fair, Umbra Clock Tower's "walkoff" is way shorter in duration and way riskier since it puts you in a pretty bad state, but the stage is almost universally banned anyway.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

By that logic Sheik dominates just about every matchup outside of maybe Diddy.

She actually kinda does. There's basically only Mewtwo and Rosalina left in competition for characters that might have the advantage against Sheik and then there's like ZSS, Sonic, Mario and maybe a few other characters I'm not too sure about that are about even with her.

And Lucario but that's not a real character as we all know.

 

[Luco]

Speak for yourself. 3DS is the only way I can play with some of my friends, but that's not exactly relevant to competitive I suppose. Prism Tower is a good stage, too. Wouldn't mind it being in the Wii U version.

Speaking of stages, I can see Duck Hunt being banned in time if we continue the trend of conservative stage lists. Many matchups become pretty awful on that stage, and platform camping is 2strong. Especially as the meta moves more and more towards camping, this will become apparent. Kongo 64 was banned in Melee because of how strong the platform camping was for some characters (Peach in particular iirc).

I won't say too much seeing as this crosses over into stage legality which has its own thread but DH is already banned in certain regions and i'm a supporter of its ban in my own region, the z-axis shenanigans on that stage are just too much for me and it heavily affects my CPing process in a way I feel is too demanding. It's one thing to ban a stage because i'd like platforms to escape to vs trap-based characters, it's another to ban a stage every time because my effective AD vulnerability frames are physically altered. PK kids don't like that stage and you should be taking them to it any time they don't ban it tbh. Then platform camping is a slightly more minor issue which creates weird dynamics.

Anyway, @my_T i'm not sure if you saw it but I ended up making that Ness v Gaw post a little while back, if you didn't see it i'll quote it for you, interested in your thoughts.

One other thing, Ryu is terrifying and is a matchup everyone needs to learn. That being said, he has real flaws that, no matter how ridiculous trela gets, will hold him back from being a contender for no. 1 barring patches because of MUs which are winnable but tiring and difficult. Which is probably for the best, and being top 10 or 15 is still pretty prestigious.

 

[Nobie]

I think if I could make one change to Zelda, it would be to just increase her aerial acceleration or deceleration. This way she could quickly change direction in mid-air, allowing her to more precisely land fairs and bairs against a moving opponent.

As for the issue of randomness in competitive play, we could have adjusted the external rules we play with to make up for these things, much like how Texas Hold 'em players are expected to incur losses due to randomness but the better players emerge over the course of hundreds and thousands of games. Round Robin, or best of 9 sets, etc., but for various reasons both practical and arbitrary we don't. Personally speaking, I was never against items, but in coming back into Smash I realized no items and no-hazard stages were just things I had to accept.

But again, it's not like Smash is the only game where the current guise of competitive game was built upon a certain desire to mold the game into something the majority wants.

 

[Emblem Lord]

"Another serious question. How can a character be top tier if they only beat one top tier really and lose to several of the most popular and they are all in the running for top 3 in the game."
that was prepatch bayo thing as well. theory of matchups and how they actually play out aren't the same. ryu is a character like ganon that heavily punishes the smallest of overextensions and whiffed moves. mu on paper never account for that and until you watch a players skill at exploiting that its really hard to account for in a mu on paper.

Are you comparing Bayo to Ryu? Bayo had a neutral tool that hit from an angle most chars could not cover and could be initiated freely from any neutral position or even in disadvantage as long as she wasn't in a combo. It was safe on block with a massive hitbox. Ryu has no compareable tool. He has nothing anywhere near as powerful. If he did I would want him banned.

And match up wise pre patch Bayo **** on a lot of chars. People just didn't want too see it or simply didn't understand what makes a character a threat in this game.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To be fair, Umbra Clock Tower's "walkoff" is way shorter in duration and way riskier since it puts you in a pretty bad state, but the stage is almost universally banned anyway.

And I wish it wasn't.

(Is there not a dedicated stage discussion thread anymore?)

 

[Yikarur]

lol banning DH because of Z-Axis. This is ridiculous.We have enough Omegas with similar traits.

 

[paperchao]

And I wish it wasn't.

(Is there not a dedicated stage discussion thread anymore?)

Nope, there probably won't be anytime soon, unless someone reboots it.
Anyways, banning duck hunt is pretty whiny, and the campout problem only applies to a select few mu's. use your bans people, they're there for a reason.

 

[blackghost]

Are you comparing Bayo to Ryu? Bayo had a neutral tool that hit from an angle most chars could not cover and could be initiated freely from any neutral position or even in disadvantage as long as she wasn't in a combo. It was safe on block with a massive hitbox. Ryu has no compareable tool. He has nothing anywhere near as powerful. If he did I would want him banned.

And match up wise pre patch Bayo **** on a lot of chars. People just didn't want too see it or simply didn't understand what makes a character a threat in this game.

as ussual i say the word bayonetta abd a smash player ignores what im saying. you talked about mu and i told you that bayo prepatch or current loses to a majority of high abd top tiers. not debatable she loses to shiek, diddy, mario, rosa, mewtwo, and others. so why was she such a threat and ryu (according to you) isnt. results from ryu are better, bayo barely wins somewhat decent locals now.
her matvhup chart is so volatile is absolutely ridiculous

 

[C0rvus]

Just calling it how I see it. I could care less if Duck Hunt gets banned or keeps staying legal. Just means I can always bring Mac to an awful stage in a ruleset with one ban, have a choice to cheese bad characters, etc. Good to have options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

as ussual i say the word bayonetta abd a smash player ignores what im saying. you talked about mu and i told you that bayo prepatch or current loses to a majority of high abd top tiers. not debatable she loses to shiek, diddy, mario, rosa, mewtwo, and others. so why was she such a threat and ryu (according to you) isnt. results from ryu are better, bayo barely wins somewhat decent locals now.
her matvhup chart is so volatile is absolutely ridiculous

She was nerf bombed within months of her release.

It is incredibly disingenuous to compare her results to Ryu and act as if you can draw any relevant conclusions.

However you CAN compare their tools and the community was far more up in arms over her then they were about Ryu. Their tools are ENTIRELY the reason for this.

 

[blackghost]

She was nerf bombed within months of her release.

It is incredibly disingenuous to compare her results to Ryu and act as if you can draw any relevant conclusions

However you CAN compare their tools and the community was far more up in arms over her then they were about Ryu. Their tools are ENTIRELY the reason for this.

this conversation has gone offtrack. i used bayo as an example of a character who lost to a majority of top and high tiers pre and postpatch in theory but was considered a heavy threat and contrasting it to ryu who you said isnt a threat because he losses to many high and top tiers. my question was whats the difference between the two?
why cant thier results be compared? bayo has 0 big wins she barely has top 8 placing. ryu wins events in japan and the us.

 

[Das Koopa]

I support banning duck hunt because of how the ducks randomly interfere with attacks/projectiles.

But then again I'm also pretty anti-Yoshi's Story in Melee because of Randall.

so don't worry too much about my stage opinions ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)

 

[FeelMeUp]

"Depending on what Ranai's placement is at EVO, we'll see if the character is still top tier or not."
Dabuz in: http://www.thescoreesports.com/smas...-could-win-evo-but-any-of-them-could-get-49th

Am I really the only one that sees how toxic and backwards this sort of mindset is?

 

[Kofu]

"Depending on what Ranai's placement is at EVO, we'll see if the character is still top tier or not."
Dabuz in: http://www.thescoreesports.com/smas...-could-win-evo-but-any-of-them-could-get-49th

Am I really the only one that sees how toxic and backwards this sort of mindset is?

You're taking this out of context. It was part of a response to the question, "which characters do you think are in top tier right now?"

No order, just looking at the character select screen right now. Obviously Mario, Rosa, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Zero Suit. People are going to question this, but I think Marth is a top-tier character. Mr. E is kind of getting to the point where he's competing with top level players, Pugwest has the same thing. We see Leo in Mexico, who used to be the best Meta Knight, is using Marth and doing really well. He's the first top-level player to pick up the character.

Fox and Sonic are also top-tier for sure. I think Villager might still be top tier. Depending on what Ranai's placement is at EVO, we'll see if the character is still top tier or not. I think Mega Man is top tier. If you look at Kamemushi play in Japan, he's been kind of destroying the entire country with our favorite Blue Bomber. We'll see at EVO, but I think Mega Man is a borderline top-tier character.

Mewtwo of course is top tier. I think Ryu is is overrated but is still top tier, but I'm biased because Rosa beats Ryu. Cloud is definitely top tier, Corrin may or may not be. His theory is really good, but his results are lacking. I also think Bayo is very underrated right now. I think she's the new Diddy Kong, where she got nerfed and people are underestimating her, but she's already showing signs of growing and being strong.

While I don't think Villager is top tier (nor was he ever in the vanilla metagame) his line if reasoning seems to be that even though Ranai was the only player getting notable, top-level results with the character, his results were good and consistent enough to include Villager in the list of top-tiered characters. Since Ranai hasn't played much lately, Villager's results have largely shrunk and perception of him has fallen.

Additionally, the last three DLC characters are all strong contenders and are hard matchups for Villager (especially Cloud). That alone could cut his relevance and tier placement.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The quote in question is the exact same with context.
You don't just ignore a character's negative qualities and deem them a top tier just because one world-class potentially top 5 player did fantastically with them.
"He's still top tier if Ranai does well at EVO" is a bad statement no matter how you slice it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

this conversation has gone offtrack. i used bayo as an example of a character who lost to a majority of top and high tiers pre and postpatch in theory but was considered a heavy threat and contrasting it to ryu who you said isnt a threat because he losses to many high and top tiers. my question was whats the difference between the two?
why cant thier results be compared? bayo has 0 big wins she barely has top 8 placing. ryu wins events in japan and the us.

Because Ryu winning regional level stuff didnt happen until almost a year after his release. Bayo didnt have time to truly flex her muscles at full power before getting nerfed.

How do you not see that?

And stop twisting my words. I did not ever say Ryu was not a threat at all. I said NATIONAL threat. Clear counter play is being developed that has been shown to work against Ryu. It has been shown what his bad matches are in high level play. 9B was getting bodied by Villager. Ryu has many losses to Sonic and only just recently has the match become reasonable. Ryu and Yoshi community both agree overall that Ryu loses that match as well. Ryu has also been shown to struggle vs a Diddy that is willing to back off with banana in hand, waiting for a confirm. The way to deal with Ryu is obvious though some characters do it better then others. There was no clear counterplay to Bayo due to how her tools work.

 

[-Tornado-]

Speaking of Ryu, Esam just posted a Stage Select video for him (w/ Trela's help)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpSoJR_2bnQ

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Can someone help me out?

I'm starting to feel like Roy isn't actually so bad again.

Please beat me down with cold, unrelenting facts.

 

[Das Koopa]

i should post my EVO predictions

But related, and among them; I doubt Ranai will crack top 32. Bold guess, but I'm expecting Aba to, as per usual, carry the best results from Japan.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Speaking of Ryu, Esam just posted a Stage Select video for him (w/ Trela's help)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpSoJR_2bnQ

Tried to watch the video and I just couldnt.

Just could not help but focus on the plethora of bad decisions Void kept making. Dude did a point blank bair on Ryu while rising. what in the nine levels of hell was that?

This is the type of play people use to justify why Ryu is godlike? Void had a SIGNIFICANT percent lead and INSISTED on trying to rushdown Ryu and he did so VERY unsafely.

Guys....seriously. What in the world?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Can someone help me out?

I'm starting to feel like Roy isn't actually so bad again.

Please beat me down with cold, unrelenting facts.

Gets blown up when hit, horrible recovery, troubling neutral game, and decent-ish combo game. Doesn't say "strong character" to me.