Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

I feel like results have always been there for Yoshis but people have always ignored them.

They have improved at least in terms of quantity I'd say and I consider that somewhat important. Even if Yoshi's results haven't improved by much, between them being at least a tad better now and people having always been ignorant towards them I think it's fairly easy to see where the argument is coming from that people have been sleeping on him for a while now. It's been a good while since people actually mentioned him as a top 10 character. A lot of the time he hasn't even been in consideration for top 20 and that's just not right. Yoshi's clearly better than that.

 

[Blobface]

Could very well be, although 55:45 and 45:55 is still effectively even. Smash community just tends to shrink the overall matchup radius to 70:30 - 30:70 and nothing beyond that, so the difference between 50:50 and 45:55 seems considerable, and then everyone who puts up numbers beyond that must be crazy and is ignored immediately.

It's as if a bigger difference such as 80:20 means the former character has tools so much stronger that they should never lose, but that logic is completely backwards. It turns "here are reasons why the other character is very likely to win but isn't guaranteed to win every time because of these other reasons so the matchup is 80:20" into "the matchup is 80:20 so why should the other character ever win lol 80:20 must mean unwinnable so let's cap at 70:30".

?????????????????

The ratio is a consensus of the matchup with reasoning behind it, but instead for some reason the ratio is considered first and the reasons behind it are completely ignored. Whatever led to people thinking 80:20 is equivalent to unwinnable I don't know though, 80:20 is 80:20, not 100:0. It's as simple as that.

Some of the Japanese MU charts are the best where almost nothing is beyond 51:49 or 49:51. That's some pretty good balance Sakurai.

what the actual **** though this is a real problem in Smash (this post isn't directed at you who I quoted, just a general rant)

To be honest, I don't see the point of using quantitative ratios for qualitative match ups at all. What a +1 means seems completely different from person to person, and even in the best case scenario numbers don't really accomplish anything a brief description couldn't.

 

[LordMix]

LordMix Hey, you kind of had to get me off track on a previous topic. Well, judging by what you posted though, let me ask you something, why did ZeRo consider you the best Bowser player when you act like an immature person? Out of all of the things you could have said on this board, you had to go ahead to insult someone, didn't you? It was Emblem Lord that you insulted from your post yes?

Look man, just because you're called the best Bowser player by opinion doesn't mean a damn thing. First of all, there could be people out there with Bowsers that would cream you. Secondly, don't think that there aren't people out there, and in this thread especially, who can beat your Bowser with any relative ease because they're significantly better than you. Again, let me tell you something; out of anything that would have come to your mind in a post, you had to go with an insult on the dude because of nothing. You could have easily spread the knowledge of Bowser instead of going on some flame topic.

Now personally, I'd like to see how good or bad your Bowser is, and we're not that far apart either state-wise or region-wise.

But at the end of the day, you should have posted something different instead of flaming someone. That isn't a good thing to start out with, man. And like @Piipp said, if you're not just baiting us, then even I feel bad for the same people who have to be around you. But dude, LordMix, please don't insult people. It's unsportsmanlike and unprofessional to do.

cute

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Not to keep bringing the discussion back to MK, but just wanted to clarify a couple of things. I said I wouldn't be surprised if MK was 15 or even 20 spots lower this patch, but my actual opinion is one of "who knows" basically. Not calling it cause I don't see how anyone seriously can currently.

As for his main strengths, which someone asked about: excellent ground game, high kill power, scary offstage presence, disadvantage state. The latter is very good thanks to his 6 jumps + teleport, great recovery and frame 4 Dair, but his fast faller + lightweight status spoils this somewhat. For example, he gets mashed by stuff like Robin's Checkmate and Falcon's Dthrow > knee.

This raises the question: What characters are more useful as counter picks, rather than what you would normally use throughout a tourney? Obviously you can play whatever character you want however you want in tourney so let's not get too carried away with this and devolve into the general "why use X character over Y character at all?" That's not useful. It's very clear that Meta Knight is a hard counter to floaty characters like Rosalina because he can still ladder combo them to death or near death. What other characters are there that counter other tournament threats but don't do maybe so well against other common threats?

 

[BunbUn129]

Pikachu solidly beats Falcon, who despite being an upper-mid tier is still a common tourney pick, while he has a few tough MU's vs common top tier threats, namely Mario.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Pikachu solidly beats Falcon, who despite being an upper-mid tier is still a common tourney pick, while he has a few tough MU's vs common top tier threats, namely Mario.

True. Mario's pretty manageable. Sheik or Diddy Kong are more of a threat to Falcon than Mario is though, and they're still fairly common.

 

[Trifroze]

I think ratios somewhat account for all levels of play. 'This person has to be X amount better to win'. So, if you are of equal skill, this person having better tools should never lose. Because the person with the 60:40 has 60% chance of winning each interaction (due frequently to option coverage. If your opponent can throw rockscissors and cover everything you have a chance of doing in a certain moment, then you have to predict their options reliably ie be better than them).

I mean someone with 60:40 doesn't often have a 60% chance of winning each interaction in that matchup. It could be something like 30-40%, but they just get so much more reward for it that the matchup turns into their advantage. Or on the other hand 70-80%, but they get much less reward.

You also don't necessarily need to be better than your opponent to win a neutral interaction against a character who has better option coverage, you just need to guess right once whether it's a read or not. This creates variance, and a 60% chance to win each interaction only means that on a long timespan it evens out to 60%. In some matches it can very well be 40%, in others 80%, even if the players are of similar skill. There is no matchup in the game where you can't win neutral by a series of couple good guesses, and the ones with the most trouble doing it tend to do the most damage as well.

Also, think about the value of mistakes and guesses when a character is supposed to win neutral around 80% of the time to make up for the difference in reward, say Sheik vs DK. Sheik making a correct guess or DK making a mistake doesn't mean much, as Sheik had so much better of a chance at winning the interaction anyway. But when DK makes a correct guess or Sheik makes a mistake it's huge, because it wasn't likely to happen. Yet, they are to be expected to an extent because they're impossible to consistently avoid.

It's as if 30:70 is the worst practical matchup and everything beyond that might as well be 0:100. But there's a difference between even 10:90 and 0:100. In the former, the character with the disadvantage still has a realistic enough chance to clutch the game out with an unlikely but possible series of reads, and on the long run it's bound to happen eventually. Maybe 3 out of every 10 games, maybe 2, or maybe just 1 (i.e. 10:90).

 

[aεrgiα]

Miis in sm4sh...what a whole bunch of nonsense. Part of the fun of smash is picking a main who you can identify with on some level, and growing a pokemon-esque bond with that main as you improve. Why give people generic, customizable avatars when this roster is all about finding your own avatar? Such a useless design choice in my opinion. On top of that, they're just more complicated customs-semantic bs for TO's and community members to headache over.

thats part of the fun... FOR YOU!! personally, i play this game to have fun playing it? and thats got way more to do(for me) with the moveset and playstyle a character has than what games theyre from. thats why i play lucas, bc i enjoy his moveset in smash not because of his game(which i havent even played tbh, planning to though). tbh the only characters i "identify" with are yoshi and link, both of which i dont like how they play, i mean theres pokemon, but the pokemon in smash are all ones i dont care about... am i only allowed to play yoshi and link? thats stupid reasoning, but know what i identify with heavily? monster hunter, and guess what, if i play miis i can actually play as a monster hunter!!!(and that imo is the purpose of miis in this game, to let you play characters which didnt make the cut as their own character) and on the topic of generic avatars... guess what robin and corrin are? should we now ban corrin and robin? and the "complicated customs-semantic bs for tos" argument is just plain stupid, guest mii with free moveset takes absolutely 0 work from the to and a few seconds for the player to set up, they are not broken or introduce any issues otherwise...

 

[HoSmash4]

Matchup ratios are meaningless and are just numbers. It's better to describe whether a matchup is bad, even or good with reasons why.

There's too many variables to give it a number. Everyone's definition of 6:4 55:45 +1 etc differs slightly.

Like DK vs Sheik might be even, but DK struggles to get in Sheik if she offers no overextension. But if DK reads any poor dash in or spaced fair with a pivot grab, that could be stock over with one good read.

Matchup ratios are less important with the jank and overpowered kill options in the game e.g aura, ding dong or

 

[Jigglymaster]

The Brawler Chart and his reasoning are bull****.
So narrow and simple-minded. I wouldn't really pay attention to it. It's wrong on so many levels.

the whole concept "if it's easy to get a grab = advantagous MU if they are good at avoiding getting grabbed = disadvantage MU is really really superficial. This is an early 2015 opinion or something someone would say that doesn't know the character at all and just heard about "oh there is that jank upB".

I'm already playing this character from the very beginning and Mii's have been legal in germany from day 1. Everyone has adapted to the Match-up and you barely get grabs on the ledge, because if you play the MU optimally your goal is to play center stage all the time. The MU chart might be correct if neither player knows the Match-up lol.

Brawler is a good character overall. I think he struggles with sword characters, because they can keep Brawler out and if they succeed to get past combo kill% it's very hard for Brawler to get a kill.
Brawler is generally in an advantage if the opponent doesn't have much disjoints because Brawler is faster and really mobile and can out-space most characters with his mobility.

I don't have a match-up chart myself because I don't like creating match-up charts based on half-knowledge or narrow-minded paradigms were I just decide match-ups based on some attributes. I'm pretty convinced that Cloud is -2 and Dedede is +3 though Pre-Patch Sheik was -2 as well but I haven't faced post-patch sheik with Mii Brawler yet.

Btw Mini Brawler is one of the best characters in the game if not the best character right now. But it's sadly not legal

Okay wow aren't you full of yourself. It's a shame that we live so far away that the internet connection probably wouldn't be good, because I'd be glad to correct you in a battle. Cause you know, no offense, but maybe you should stop disrespecting so much, that's rude.


I have no reason to put any MU's that I have rarely, if ever lost any worse than +1

 

[Trifroze]

Matchup ratios just attempt to describe the ideal situation where two similarly skilled players play a hundred matches, using their characters optimally and adapting to each other at a steady pace. The score after those hundred matches is the ratio and it's not a matter of opinion of what it means. On the other hand, whatever led to the matches ending up they way they did can be used to explain the matchup more descriptively. If the situation ended at 82-18, it's not a 100:0 matchup. It's 82:18 or 80:20.

The +/- system refuses to give any idea of who wins more matches and to what extent, and only serves the purpose of being a summary of the matchup description which might as well just be summarized by adjectives. That's what the ratio system often ends up being as well because we can't have two similarly skilled players playing a hundred matches with every matchup in the game, but the ratio system still at least attempts to give additional data (i.e. likely win ratio between two characters) instead of just being a summary of something else and nothing more.

 

[Jamurai]

This raises the question: What characters are more useful as counter picks, rather than what you would normally use throughout a tourney? Obviously you can play whatever character you want however you want in tourney so let's not get too carried away with this and devolve into the general "why use X character over Y character at all?" That's not useful. It's very clear that Meta Knight is a hard counter to floaty characters like Rosalina because he can still ladder combo them to death or near death. What other characters are there that counter other tournament threats but don't do maybe so well against other common threats?

Listing relevant characters and their possible mid- or low-tier counterpicks that I can think of:

: Dr Mario, Kirby
: DK, Lucario
: Meta Knight
: Lucas, Mega Man
: Olimar (??)

I guess a counterpick character would ideally be relatively easy to play. Those that fit this bill include DK and Dr Mario, while others who really don't include MK, Lucas and Olimar.

EDIT: Alright, alright. Make that non-top-or-really-high tier. Semantics bruh.

 

[Retlaf]

Okay wow aren't you full of yourself. It's a shame that we live so far away that the internet connection probably wouldn't be good, because I'd be glad to correct you in a battle. Cause you know, no offense, but maybe you should stop disrespecting so much, that's rude.


I have no reason to put any MU's that I have rarely, if ever lost any worse than +1

Well, his reasoning seems pretty sound. Can you elaborate on the justification of your chart?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Well, his reasoning seems pretty sound. Can you elaborate on the justification of your chart?

Well it was posted earlier, which he disagreed with. But I'll state it again in a little bit more detail.

Grabbing somebody at the ledge is the main goal of the game here, sure, people have adapted to it and know not to let that happen. But there are ways of getting it regardless, like pushing them to the ledge from a sourspot n-air. It should be a top priority to get the early kill combo, because once you miss it, you cannot kill until a much later percentage. In otherwords your risk-reward changes completely. Maintaining your opponent's percentage and stage positioning is crucial, and you need to do things like d-throw foostools to get them where you want.

When considering my MU, there are these things involved.

1. When going for the n-air, can my opponent punish me if they shield it? Like, what is Cloud going to do to punish me? What is post patch Shiek going to do? There is no fear against these characters so I have no worry. However, if I am fighting say, Luigi or Ryu, I might die from such a mistake. The MU becomes way worse. I would say that Ness is a slight exception to this, but his d-throw footstool combo is actually the easiest in the game, so that offsets it.

2. I can't grab the opponent at all. Ala, Peach's Float, Toon Link's mobility, Jigglypuff's mobility. If I can't get the early kill, then I have to rely on crappy 1111 Brawler kill methods or a raw up B. The whole gameplan goes down the drain.

I like to play a very extreme style of Mii Brawler, and usually it works out in my favor.

Mii Brawler dittos themselves are actually the funniest, because if one Mii Brawler is at 0% while the other is at 100%, I'd consider the one at 100% to be winning since he can technically kill earlier and safer than the other Brawler.

 

[C0rvus]

Listing relevant characters and their possible mid- or low-tier counterpicks that I can think of:

: Dr Mario, Kirby
: DK, Lucario
: Meta Knight
: Lucas, Mega Man
: Olimar (??)

I guess a counterpick character would ideally be relatively easy to play. Those that fit this bill include DK and Dr Mario, while others who really don't include MK, Lucas and Olimar.

Mid tier counterpicks have the advantage of being less common and thus can likely not be a known MU for more players. But then Cloud beats Rosa and does it more easily. He's almost definitely the best pocket character. Low skill floor and a good MU spread and dominant neutral.

To add to the list, DK also gives Mario a hard time. So does Corrin, but I don't think many consider him mid tier.

Doesn't Luigi still have a good Fox MU? I know Marth has a near even Fox MU as well.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Another thing I want to add is that Brawler, or at least mine, hates fighting characters with good frame data rather than disjointed hitboxes. Cloud for example while he has lingering hitboxes that are disjointed, I can space myself around and rush in when the timing is right. But trying to get up and personal with Luigi or Ryu is tough since their attacks are just flat out faster and stronger than mine, there is no opportunity to go in against them. Their main weakness is being forced to approach, which is something 2122 Brawler cannot do.

EDIT: Updated Chart

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja can shadow sneak out of helicopter kick.

God damn it I love that move!

 

[Ninety]

So, you guys seen this? An attempt to make a unified universal matchup chart based on several top players' charts. Heavily biased towards said players' mains and against lesser-used characters (no, Robin doesn't have only four advantageous matchups), but it's still something.

 

[Charoite]

Listing relevant characters and their possible mid- or low-tier counterpicks that I can think of:

: Dr Mario, Kirby
: DK, Lucario
: Meta Knight
: Lucas, Mega Man
: Olimar (??)

I guess a counterpick character would ideally be relatively easy to play. Those that fit this bill include DK and Dr Mario, while others who really don't include MK, Lucas and Olimar.

But the majority of these are high tier, low tiers aren't for good counterpick that is why they are low tier at most they can go even or slight disadvantage, high tier are what you are looking for counterpick to top tiers, and maybe some upper-mid tiers.

 

[irokex13]

1. When going for the n-air, can my opponent punish me if they shield it? Like, what is Cloud going to do to punish me? What is post patch Shiek going to do? There is no fear against these characters so I have no worry.

2. I can't grab the opponent at all. Ala, Peach's Float, Toon Link's mobility, Jigglypuff's mobility.

Another thing I want to add is that Brawler, or at least mine, hates fighting characters with good frame data rather than disjointed hitboxes. Cloud for example while he has lingering hitboxes that are disjointed, I can space myself around and rush in when the timing is right. Their main weakness is being forced to approach, which is something 2122 Brawler cannot do.

EDIT: Updated Chart

I don't quite understand how you reached the conclusion of Brawler having good MUs against Cloud and Sheik. Cloud and Sheik are fairly notorious for being evasive and being able to wall characters out. You mentioned being able to force a character to the ledge with sour spot nair, but won't he just get anti-air'd by Cloud's up tilt (this move also lowers Cloud's hurtbox) or d tilt (lowers Cloud's hurtbox and catches the landing, can also just flat out dodge the aerial and return to center stage)? Cloud could also challenge it with his nair, up air, or Cross Slash (another anti-air option) or shield it and throw him since Cloud actually has grab follow ups when he has limit. All of Cloud's aerials are safe when spaced carefully, even the autocancel dair, so I'm not sure how Brawler could run in and punish these.

Sheik can just play the Sheik game of walling with fair and needles. She can just crouch Brawler's nair and punish with a grab/f tilt/d tilt.

You stated that Brawler has trouble approaching, and these two have all the tools to force the opponent to approach, as they have better overall mobility and a projectile. They also possess longer range to wall out Brawler. This MU could very well be in Brawler's favor, and the fact that you consistently beat these characters proves that there is some merit behin what you are saying. But I have to admit that I disagree with your reasoning. While I'm not the best Cloud or Sheik player, I would love to play out some matches with you if you ever have the time.

 

[Illuminose]

Listing relevant characters and their possible mid- or low-tier counterpicks that I can think of:

: Dr Mario, Kirby
: DK, Lucario
: Meta Knight
: Lucas, Mega Man
: Olimar (??)

I guess a counterpick character would ideally be relatively easy to play. Those that fit this bill include DK and Dr Mario, while others who really don't include MK, Lucas and Olimar.

*chuckles at MK put as mid tier*

Olimar vs Bayonetta is terrible for Olimar fyi.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I don't quite understand how you reached the conclusion of Brawler having good MUs against Cloud and Sheik. Cloud and Sheik are fairly notorious for being evasive and being able to wall characters out. You mentioned being able to force a character to the ledge with sour spot nair, but won't he just get anti-air'd by Cloud's up tilt (this move also lowers Cloud's hurtbox) or d tilt (lowers Cloud's hurtbox and catches the landing, can also just flat out dodge the aerial and return to center stage)? Cloud could also challenge it with his nair, up air, or Cross Slash (another anti-air option) or shield it and throw him since Cloud actually has grab follow ups when he has limit. All of Cloud's aerials are safe when spaced carefully, even the autocancel dair, so I'm not sure how Brawler could run in and punish these.

Sheik can just play the Sheik game of walling with fair and needles. She can just crouch Brawler's nair and punish with a grab/f tilt/d tilt.

You stated that Brawler has trouble approaching, and these two have all the tools to force the opponent to approach, as they have better overall mobility and a projectile. They also possess longer range to wall out Brawler. This MU could very well be in Brawler's favor, and the fact that you consistently beat these characters proves that there is some merit behin what you are saying. But I have to admit that I disagree with your reasoning. While I'm not the best Cloud or Sheik player, I would love to play out some matches with you if you ever have the time.

Shiek used to be a problem when she was pre-patch and had her 50/50, so while she can still most certainly grab Brawler, she isn't as deadly as she used to be. Though I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, jumping n-air isn't Brawler's only approach. Alot of his approach is reliant on baiting the opponents attacks, which is primarily what I'd do against Cloud, similar to playing Puff vs Marth in melee, you wait for him to commit to a swing and then you go in.

And sure, we can play sometime soon.

 

[Tizio Random]

So, you guys seen this? An attempt to make a unified universal matchup chart based on several top players' charts. Heavily biased towards said players' mains and against lesser-used characters (no, Robin doesn't have only four advantageous matchups), but it's still something.

I like the effort but I think it should be made with more accuracy and maybe give some more time.
What I don't understand is why they order the characters that way, it's really confusing. For me, the best way to order the chart is to put the character with most positive matchups first and then going down. In this way you have a pleasant chart to look because it "fills" the right way and you can analyze oddities if there's any, like the Brawl match-ups chart which is very nice to look at. Here's the : http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBB)

 

[Chubbybarbarian]

Another thing I want to add is that Brawler, or at least mine, hates fighting characters with good frame data rather than disjointed hitboxes. Cloud for example while he has lingering hitboxes that are disjointed, I can space myself around and rush in when the timing is right. But trying to get up and personal with Luigi or Ryu is tough since their attacks are just flat out faster and stronger than mine, there is no opportunity to go in against them. Their main weakness is being forced to approach, which is something 2122 Brawler cannot do.

EDIT: Updated Chart

BAYO OP

 

[Yikarur]

Another thing I want to add is that Brawler, or at least mine, hates fighting characters with good frame data rather than disjointed hitboxes. Cloud for example while he has lingering hitboxes that are disjointed, I can space myself around and rush in when the timing is right. But trying to get up and personal with Luigi or Ryu is tough since their attacks are just flat out faster and stronger than mine, there is no opportunity to go in against them. Their main weakness is being forced to approach, which is something 2122 Brawler cannot do.

It's interesting that our personal MUs seem to oppose eachother as if if we are playing completely different characters. I think MUs like Luigi and Mario feel pretty easy for me. I don't play radically Dthrow Helicopter Kick centric because I think it won't work against people knowing the MU so I grinded everything out of the character to use as much as possible. I'll try the hardcore approach for some match-up and look how things work out. I guess Battlefield (Blastzones) is your main ban while it's my favorite stage with brawler.

 

[Jigglymaster]

It's interesting that our personal MUs seem to oppose eachother as if if we are playing completely different characters. I think MUs like Luigi and Mario feel pretty easy for me. I don't play radically Dthrow Helicopter Kick centric because I think it won't work against people knowing the MU so I grinded everything out of the character to use as much as possible. I'll try the hardcore approach for some match-up and look how things work out. I guess Battlefield (Blastzones) is your main ban while it's my favorite stage with brawler.

First off, I appreciate the better approach at disagreeing with me with the whole different playstyle thing, so thank you.

Actually, my main ban is Lylat. I actually got knocked out of EVO because I got Lylated against Static Manny while I had the lead, which was super important. The stage lifted up and I couldn't recover with Helicopter Kick. I don't mind Battlefield that much honestly though because it's good for comboing. Smashville is my go to Brawler stage though.

 

[FullMoon]

Can Greninja actually get out of HK?

I've tried before but could never do it but maybe I was just doing it wrong.

I do know he can get out of F-Air and mess up the combo though

 

[Y2Kay]

Can Greninja actually get out of HK?

I've tried before but could never do it but maybe I was just doing it wrong.

I do know he can get out of F-Air and mess up the combo though

Unless our SSHC thread is wrong, then yeah we can

 

[Lavani]

Greninja can only SSHC a certain hitbox on the move (I think the upper aerial-only hitbox, off the top of my head). The other hitboxes on it have too much knockback.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja can only SSHC a certain hitbox on the move (I think the upper aerial-only hitbox, off the top of my head). The other hitboxes on it have too much knockback.

That explains it.

It's been ages since I've gone against Mii Brawler but from what I can recall I always found it to be even. I never really felt in a disadvantage in that MU even with HK shenanigans.

 

[Megamang]

As much as I love Greninja, SSHC stands out to me as one of the least intuitive and 'janky' things right now. Whether he can get out is based on some seemingly random variables, and while you *can* understand them, it obviously wasn't considered when those moves were created. I'd hope for a fix that also gave gren some meaningful assistance in other areas, though messing with his startup would really mess with character feel (nair especially would be really weird to relearn).


I mean, its known he can get out of Bayo stuff, but I don't think anyone except greninja players really know the extent of its escape options. Check out the Greninja boards for more info, its pretty insane actually. On the other hand, it isn't always a good escape option, so maybe im overestimating it

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As much as I love Greninja, SSHC stands out to me as one of the least intuitive and 'janky' things right now. Whether he can get out is based on some seemingly random variables, and while you *can* understand them, it obviously wasn't considered when those moves were created. I'd hope for a fix that also gave gren some meaningful assistance in other areas, though messing with his startup would really mess with character feel (nair especially would be really weird to relearn).


I mean, its known he can get out of Bayo stuff, but I don't think anyone except greninja players really know the extent of its escape options. Check out the Greninja boards for more info, its pretty insane actually. On the other hand, it isn't always a good escape option, so maybe im overestimating it

Let's apply "cocaine logic" to it; if SSHC did not exist, would its addition be seen as a good or bad thing? I think it's pretty obvious it would be seen as a bug, at the very least, and IMO bugs need to be patched out regardless if they're a net gain or loss for the bugged character.

 

[Jucchan]

Umeki's Tier List. Ordered.

Looks wonky at first glance, but pretty spot-on in terms of Japanese results.

 

[Mario766]

and here's a prime example of why pure result tier lists

Do

Not

Work.

 

[arbustopachon]

I know that ike aint popular in japan, but that dorf above ike.

 

[Mario766]

I know that ike aint popular in japan, but that dorf above ike.

Dorf over Ike

Link over Ike

DUCK HUNT over Ike

Marth and Lucina just below Meta Knight

AND ABOVE IKE

Let's just throw in a spice of Shulk being next to Ike for ****s and giggles because clearly clones Kappa


Also MM top 10. Nuff said

 

[Aaron1997]

Duck hunt over Pika, Yoshi and Lugi? I know DH gets great results in Japan but wtf

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja over Mario and Olimar that high surprised me.

 

[KamikazePotato]

So, you guys seen this? An attempt to make a unified universal matchup chart based on several top players' charts. Heavily biased towards said players' mains and against lesser-used characters (no, Robin doesn't have only four advantageous matchups), but it's still something.

People are not paying enough attention to this. This **** is bananas:

Bowser: 9-31
Bowser Jr.: 10-27
Charizard: 6-37
Ganondorf: 3-42
DeDeDe: 7-42
Ike: 21-24
Samus: 17-27
Wario: 9-23

Probably the most comprehensive proof of Heavyweight Disrespect that I've ever seen.

Then you have stuff like:

Ryu: 26-17
Robin: 4-30 (mother of mercy)
Pikachu: 43-4
Zelda: 3-47
Ness: 20-20
Metaknight: 34-8
Lucina: 7-35
Greninja: 30-9
Dr. Mario: 4-32
Kirby: 10-32

Surprisingly, Link and Palutena actually got some credit.


EDIT: In the middle of me posting this, another highly questionable MU chart was posted. Good grief.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Umeki's Tier List. Ordered.

Looks wonky at first glance, but pretty spot-on in terms of Japanese results.

LUCARIO?!?!?!!

UGH!!!

Yo fam...my heart hurts.

IT HURTS DAMMIT!!!!