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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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ParanoidDrone

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I'm curious what his thoughts are too but I think I have an idea on both.

"Super Brawl Wario on Crack" is probably referring to how, second to only Metaknight Meta Knight, Wario was absurdly good at gimping and had such crazy aerial mobility that the character easily ran circles around you if they knew the match up. Wario's range was garbage but it didn't really matter too much in most match ups because he was just so mobile and, if he wanted to get in, he'd get in. This along with a recovery that was really difficult to edgeguard and the always present comeback factor of the waft, you had a character that was incredibly elusive. If it weren't for the laughably exploitable grab releases against him, Wario would have probably stayed top 5 or even top 3 throughout Brawl's lifespan.

As for Wii Fit, a set up throw with her would be absolutely monstrous. Deep breathing + hypothetical set up dthrow + bair/uair/baited air dodge header/fully charged sun salutation = a good portion of the cast being dead at 100% or less. It'd basically be pre 1.1.5 patch Sheik all over again. Don't even get me started on how stupid good it would be a low percentages given that nair and uair can freakin' combo into themselves already. Maybe we WFT players will get lucky and one night Sakurai will have a dark impulse to make her scary. On this note, I think Bowser Jr would practically be a whole different character too if he had a set up throw or even a kill throw.
I think Wii Fit Trainer with a setup throw still wouldn't quite reach Sheik tier, simply because the overwhelming speed and frame data isn't there. She can't rush in with the threat of close-to-unpunishable hotboxes to force shield. And her projectiles, while good, don't have quite the same utility as needles with respect to immediately responding to long range options.
 

Jamurai

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A little late, but someone said earlier that DK and Bowser have trouble punishing Bayo's side-B. Something of note is that they can utilise their ridiculous pivot grabs against this move to great effect. Not only because pivot grabs are good against it in general and DK and Bowser have arguably the best versions of them in the game, but also because they get huge reward off their grabs.

Not to submit as solid evidence (more anecdotally), but I have generated significant % and/or stock deficits for side-B-happy Bayos online largely because of this. It is important to tag as much damage as one can on opportunities like this since her defensive game is rather good; both in terms of keep-out ability and evasion, and in terms of reward off of an overextension.
 
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AxelVDP

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re: Robin's matchups
from my (limited) experience from (lowish) mid level play I can agree with the notion that Robin beats Little Mac
this is thanks to the unique combination he has between good projectiles that can be used to control the ground game (arcfire is a serious pain for Mac, arcthunder forces him to stop on his tracks too + even when dodged it puts Mac into wonky situations) and a strong and big sword to swat away jump ins attempts (Mac in general has a "sword problem", especially while recovering)
the matchup tho is not that terrible, mostly because of our good advantaged state against Robin

ANYWAY
I just wanted to chime in and inform you that tomorrow will be held the biggest italian tourney, ICARUS II
schedule:
Saturday
9:00 UTC to 17:00 UTC - Pools
Sunday
12:00 UTC to 15:00 UTC - top 64
15:00 UTC to 17:00 UTC - top 8

notable (or "notable" at least in Italy) players attending:
- Enygma :4sheik::4metaknight: (ranked 4th in Europe according to http://smasheurope.com/circuit/rankings/)
- Lanz :4rob:
- Marthforever :4diddy:
- BlueLink :4link::4tlink::4charizard:
- Loci :4falcon:
- Tommella :4peach:
- Chimera :4palutena:
- Genarog :4lucas:
- Dinamirer :4ness:
- Orso :4ganondorf::4bowser:
- Ryusei :4cloud2::4myfriends:
- Pref :4yoshi:
- Danu :4fox:
- Meercko :4tlink::4jigglypuff:
(I might have missed a few)

It will probably be streamed at https://www.twitch.tv/smashbrositalia for anyone interested
 

Locke 06

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To kinda go a few subjects back...

Cloud's dtilt is pretty good, and smart usage is definitely a strength for Cloud... but to say he prefers that to a shulk style dtilt, im not sure. His ftilt is a mediocre-at-best poke, so with a commital Dtilt like that... he really can't just, poke in front of him safely, without the usage of an aerial.
Explain pls. Why is his ftilt "mediocre at best?"

Also, he has cross Slash 1. Some people describe it as his dtilt in that it is a forward poke, but I don't think it serves that purpose well enough.
 

Aaron1997

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ZeRo has released part 3

TL:DW

:4palutena: TLTC
:4marth: Mr E / Pugwest
:4myfriends: Ryo
:4robinm: Dath
:4duckhunt: Yusan
:4kirby: Mike Kirby
:4dedede: Big D
:4metaknight: Tyrant
:4fox: Larry lurr
:4falco: Keitaro
 

BunbUn129

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Is Leo not that active lately or somethin? I thought he was considered the best mk
The problem is, as ZeRo explained, that it's really hard to gauge Leo as a player when he hasn't attended majors in the US.

Going by results, Tyrant being the best is understandable (even though I don't agree), but going by potential, Leo is the best. You can very likely tell Leo may be the best overall by just watching him play, because his neutral is on point as seen with his intricate use of perfect pivots (he uses them to dodge instead of rolling sometimes), and his follow-ups are highly consistent; he's still landing those uairs and fast-falling them really precisely, and he even managed to combo the back hit of uair -> back hit of uair -> bair for kills at least twice. Tyrant is good at neutral but not optimal with punishes; Ito is well-rounded but not spectacular at any one thing; and Aba is (or was) all punishes and no neutral. Leo is damn good across the board, but it's a real shame he can't compete beyond Mexico.
 
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Das Koopa

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I can't find myself agreeing with ZeRo at all on Tyrant > Leo, even the reasoning.

Also lol no mention of Jerm at all even when mentioning like 4 other Robins. Considering Nairo over Jerm is absurd, but Dath is the next best pick at least.
 
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Ikes

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Should wario mains be using fthrow more often? It does a hefty 12% and Wario's grab surely isnt terrible.

I guess I see wario players playing a bit too aggressively and taking more damage than they need to. Watching some Nasubi and I'm seeing a lot of this.

From my limited experience it seems safer to weave in and out with pokes, and fish for grabs when it's safe.

though I havent played much in the past months since I've been focusing my energy on street fighter so I could very well be wrong
 

Jamurai

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No disrespect to Tyrant, but in my opinion you can see Leo's next-level character knowledge simply by watching him play. Not surprised by ZeRo's decision though tbh. Can't wait for Leo to "prove himself" (like he hasn't done already) by heading to a US tourney and opening a large can of whoop-ass.

To answer Jalil Jalil 's question, yes Leo is active but Mexican tourneys don't get much exposure, although they are on the rise somewhat... The MK discord goes on red alert whenever we hear there's one on stream lol.
 
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Blobface

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Should wario mains be using fthrow more often? It does a hefty 12% and Wario's grab surely isnt terrible.

I guess I see wario players playing a bit too aggressively and taking more damage than they need to. Watching some Nasubi and I'm seeing a lot of this.

From my limited experience it seems safer to weave in and out with pokes, and fish for grabs when it's safe.

though I havent played much in the past months since I've been focusing my energy on street fighter so I could very well be wrong
I feel like for raw damage U-throw would be better. Puts Wario in a more favorable position, does only 1% less, and avoids staling Wario's kill throw.
 

BunbUn129

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Also Wario's u throw -> uair (24%) is a true combo at low percents, no?

And plus, Wario's throws deal good damage (7%/8%/11%/12%), he has a kill throw, and his grab range is good, so I honestly think people exaggerate when they say it's "bad" or "terrible." Him not having very potent throw follow-ups makes sense because Chomp is a good command grab, and with his excellent aerial mobility, he would be bonkers if he had a highly reliable combo throw.
 
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ZSaberLink

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Wow... I'm surprised at the Falco results mentioned by Zero (if they really are the best in the US) since they're pretty low it seems. May be partly due to lack of representation, but it does lend credence to people putting him in low tier atm.
 
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sedrf

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Any majors happening in this weekend besides eaglelan and that major in italy
 

Jucchan

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Any majors happening in this weekend besides eaglelan and that major in italy
Umebura 22. All the Kanto guys (Abadango, Nietono, Shu, Nyanko, Choco, RAIN, etc.) + 9B&Earth.
 
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Megamang

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Explain pls. Why is his ftilt "mediocre at best?"

Also, he has cross Slash 1. Some people describe it as his dtilt in that it is a forward poke, but I don't think it serves that purpose well enough.
Hitting on frame 9, with a FAF of 36, with meh range for a sword... It just doesn't dominate the area in front of him, like other top tiers (Think Diddy D-tilt absurdity). It is a fine poke for when you *need* to poke the area in front of you with a sword... but you better not hit a shield. 10 damage is pretty strong, and it can kill, but if you hit a shield... Only 7 frames of shield stun with more than 20 to punish you, they are gonna get their BnB more than likely.

Again, it serves its purpose, and Cloud of all people don't deserve what I'd describe as a good poke (m2/diddy/Marth d-tilts, Bowser ftilt) since his aerials work decently in this regard.

Basically, it has all it needs except safety, which is good design. It keeps Cloud somewhat honest, because he can't aerial your shield and then start poking away at it safely before you, framewise, have any say in the matter. It is pretty good when it hits, and it fills a gap in his gameplay, but with its recovery, it doesn't fill too many gaps..

Just trying to explain, I don't think it is a flaw or bad game design, quite the opposite in fact. Cloud is a pretty honest character; when one has that much mobility there should be a trade off.

Ryu hits you with his commital and telegraphed jump-in? He gets to true blockstring your shield and he holds all the cards. This is the kind of thing i'm comparing it too, although Ryu is obviously the most extreme in that regard.

EDIT: Imagine if Cloud had greninja level jabs, to mix up on your shield with as soon as he lands his obscenely safe aerials? It wouldn't be fair. There are a lot of ways they kept his ground game good but not absurd, and none of his ground options are stupid safe because that would complete him too much. His jab pushing him forward is good in many situations, and not so good in others. Balance!
 
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Jucchan

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Shuton's Olimar MU Chart. From top to bottom: Impossible, Disadvantage, Slight Disadvantage, Even, Slight Advantage, Advantage.

Angbad's MU Chart for comparison:

Notable differences:
Character|Shuton|Angbad
:4cloud:|-2|+1
:4metaknight:|-2|+1
:4corrin:|-2|0
:rosalina:|-2|0
:4ryu:|-1|+1
:4villager:|-1|+1
:4shulk:|0|-2
:4palutena:|+1|-1
:4luigi:|+1|-1
:4dk:|+1|-1
:4kirby:|+2|0
:4pacman:|+2|0
 

Greward

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Shuton's MU chart looks pretty legit as far as I can tell from my experience from having Olimar as second. Angbad's looks nonsense to me but he's the better player.
 

Megamang

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Someone in my vicinity is learning japanese, and im being told that the grey box says "unreasonable"...


Which is basically the same thing. But I found it funny, so I decided to share. And I lol'd at the random english character for olimar being F.

Of course, her being able to Witch Time a pikmin stuck on her means he reasonably can't even use his gameplan, so I'd agree with unreasonable.

Anyways, megaman beats olimar? I always hated the MU cause its a little hard to get pikmin off of you. There are options, but none what I'd call quick. I guess having zoning that can go straight thru (metal blade) and a suppressive neutral with pellets means we win. Him having an exploitable recovery is also a big plus. I'd say olimar would jump so much if he had 4 pikmin, heh, but it feels he can't quite cover the options he wants too. Often I am in a sea of damage, and I get thru... and olimar just points at me, nothing happens, and I kill him with all 3 of his pikmin on my face. I don't play good olimars often, super rare character, but he is one of the ones that should be on the upswing now that Shiek is gone?

Or, I guess, Bayonetta has just taken her place with a lower execution barrier to kick out more Olimars. Its a shame, you'd think he would be good at it, being a damage racking with projectiles/ranged grabber/big punish on the ground guy. Maybe its a MU that could turn around with some WT tweaks.
 

Nobie

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Someone in my vicinity is learning japanese, and im being told that the grey box says "unreasonable"...


Which is basically the same thing. But I found it funny, so I decided to share. And I lol'd at the random english character for olimar being F.

Of course, her being able to Witch Time a pikmin stuck on her means he reasonably can't even use his gameplan, so I'd agree with unreasonable.

Anyways, megaman beats olimar? I always hated the MU cause its a little hard to get pikmin off of you. There are options, but none what I'd call quick. I guess having zoning that can go straight thru (metal blade) and a suppressive neutral with pellets means we win. Him having an exploitable recovery is also a big plus. I'd say olimar would jump so much if he had 4 pikmin, heh, but it feels he can't quite cover the options he wants too. Often I am in a sea of damage, and I get thru... and olimar just points at me, nothing happens, and I kill him with all 3 of his pikmin on my face. I don't play good olimars often, super rare character, but he is one of the ones that should be on the upswing now that Shiek is gone?

Or, I guess, Bayonetta has just taken her place with a lower execution barrier to kick out more Olimars. Its a shame, you'd think he would be good at it, being a damage racking with projectiles/ranged grabber/big punish on the ground guy. Maybe its a MU that could turn around with some WT tweaks.
If Olimar dodges, will Witch Time still activate if Bayonetta is in range?
 

Djent

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Basically, it has all it needs except safety, which is good design. It keeps Cloud somewhat honest, because he can't aerial your shield and then start poking away at it safely before you, framewise, have any say in the matter. It is pretty good when it hits, and it fills a gap in his gameplay, but with its recovery, it doesn't fill too many gaps..

Just trying to explain, I don't think it is a flaw or bad game design, quite the opposite in fact. Cloud is a pretty honest character; when one has that much mobility there should be a trade off.
Out of curiosity, would you call Lucario "honest?" Because I wouldn't, and the way I see it, there are similarities between the two. In fact, I'd argue that the Limit mechanic on a fundamentally strong character leads to more jank than Aura on a weaker one. Both receive tremendous reward for being hit, but one can't suddenly be robbed of all potency in the advantaged state.
 

Greward

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If Olimar dodges, will Witch Time still activate if Bayonetta is in range?
WT affects people shielding but not being invincible aka dodges.
However, the counter hitbox is long enough to make it virtually impossible to dodge or roll. I don't know how many active frames it has but in practice I have not been able to roll/dodge it.
As olimar your best bet is to whistle them back if she's near, and maybe you get witch timed while in super armor frames.
 
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Megamang

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I know limit mechanic changes things, I'm just looking at a non charged Cloud and his inability to safely whittle your shield away while on the ground. He gets one swipe, then you have frames to fight back. Its unlike, say, being dtilted by bayonetta (without a sword).


Lucario.. Idk, im not gonna get into an honest debate thing.. his kit is honest tho, and only gets tuned up with aura. Linearly, might I add. Aura locked, he'd definitely have an 'honest' kit.


And, having a f6 jab, suuuuucks. But having a f6 grab is awesome, so theres a unique tradeoff that I think only Luc has.
 

Shaya

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Hmm, I know I said Cloud is more honest than people give him credit for, not inherently "an honest character". You land a safe aerial on shield and your best option happens to be attacking again most of the time; grab is so so, if you're point blank relatively well spaced doing something defensive or charging limit does nothing.
The opponent can expect, until conditioning / higher levels come into play, a stale mate or an attack. Cloud wants you to throw out a dodge/defensive option, or shield drop attempt to punish, because he can cover both (generally reactively).

There are mix ups on both sides but that's the staple scenario and what comes afterwards is mostly static.
An opponent and the player gets a near perfect 50/50 (stuff like this was very prolific in Brawl) situation without anything overtly extreme given to either player [usually, but generally not for Cloud, unless he has limit, but you're an idiot if you're going to try to play a coin toss with limit cross slash, Cloud cannot force you to play it either].

It's kinda like ZSS nairing/bairing your shield into jab. It's a pretty "honest" 50/50. It's once both players are respecting the 50/50 dynamics that you get more in depth interactions (like say, ZSS doing jab1 into grab; common nairo trick].

Maybe I should just say yomi, because it is yomi. But smashers don't tend to respect such things because a lot of the time there's this clearly 'best' win option available to one character or the other and if you're dealing with getting grabbed by pre-patch Diddy or getting dtilted by prepatch diddy (both leading to something extremely good for Diddy and are safe-ish) it isn't really a fair 50/50.
 
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PK Gaming

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Cloud is like a patch away from being a really solid character

I don't think he needs to be kneecapped at all; just toning down Limit Side B so that it isn't the "end all B all" KO option would do wonders for him
 

Charoite

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That and nerf this non-Limit Up-B, his recovery is a bad weakness, but in reality is only a hassle for the character not a very bad position to be in, like is suppose to be.
 
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Shaya

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I'm wary of that because Nair Limit Cross Slash is finicky and his only real confirm for it. Nair's knockback doesn't give him the ability to get it at the same time as killing for an extensive period of time. But it likely would be able to handle another tap down, just not by much. If it lost as much KO power as ZSS lost on boost kick, he wouldn't be top tier (imo). He'd be relegated to ledge-area based character fully (well, his optimal play is leading down this path as we see already) while suffering the potentially huge loss of being hit off stage awkwardly.
Maybe, just maybe, that would be for the best. And feeling he deserves to stay top tier is likely a bit too facetious & entitled, but eh.

But I currently feel his KO options are (ironically) limited. Beyond Limit Cross Slash he's only finding himself bairs and dairs for KOing. When you play against him realising he only has 1 KO option that comes with a big blue aura, he can struggle.
His neutral requires a lot of respect but it does not invalidate. You're forced to play his neutral-air game, but the counter play is all very simple to understand (but not so simple to implement, mind you)*

*One, most optimal timing, with most variance coming from the direction he is facing at the time (which you are expected to react to) and are open enough for reliable power shield punishes from just about the entire cast.
If you power shield rising nair while he's facing backwards, it's -23 perfectly auto cancelled, but it's the position he'll need to be in to get the optimal -13 auto cancel.

Even still, shielding any nair from Cloud not fast fallen is giving nearly guaranteed dash to shields for a lot of the cast seeing his fastest option is his frame 4 jab (so 17 frames lee way with 7 frame shield drop/etc). Just like against ZSS' nair pre-shield changes patch, Sheik has a guaranteed shield drop dash reshield against him.
 
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PK Gaming

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I'm wary of that because Nair Limit Cross Slash is finicky and his only real confirm for it. Nair's knockback doesn't give him the ability to get it at the same time as killing for an extensive period of time. But it likely would be able to handle another tap down, just not by much. If it lost as much KO power as ZSS lost on boost kick, he wouldn't be top tier (imo). He'd be relegated to ledge-area based character fully (well, his optimal play is leading down this path as we see already) while suffering the potentially huge loss of being hit off stage awkwardly.
Maybe, just maybe, that would be for the best. And feeling he deserves to stay top tier is likely a bit too facetious & entitled, but eh.

But I currently feel his KO options are (ironically) limited. Beyond Limit Cross Slash he's only finding himself bairs and dairs for KOing. When you play against him realising he only has 1 KO option that comes with a big blue aura, he can struggle.
His neutral requires a lot of respect but it does not invalidate. You're forced to play his neutral-air game, but the counter play is all very simple to understand (but not so simple to implement, mind you)*

*One, most optimal timing, with most variance coming from the direction he is facing at the time (which you are expected to react to) and are open enough for reliable power shield punishes from just about the entire cast.
If you power shield rising nair while he's facing backwards, it's -23 perfectly auto cancelled, but it's the position he'll need to be in to get the optimal -13 auto cancel.

Even still, shielding any nair from Cloud not fast fallen is giving nearly guaranteed dash to shields for a lot of the cast seeing his fastest option is his frame 4 jab (so 17 frames lee way with 7 frame shield drop/etc).
Huh, hadn't considered any of that.

I'm admittedly pretty behind on Cloud's metagame (I remember when fall off ledge Limit Side B was the new hotness). But I get what you're trying to get at. There has to come a time where players just need to start straight up labbing against certain character options.

Can't solely lean on patches to do the work for us.
 
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Shaya

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Why nerf what's already trash tier
From what I gather there's several frames at the end of the rise of climhazard without hitboxes and which he cannot ledge snap. Whenever you fail a climhazard punish you should ask yourself whether doing it slightly earlier or slightly later would've just given you a stock at any percent.
Chances are, that slight variation of timing would've been a KO. Cloud's are just used to being able to see a movement which indicates to them that the opponent is attacking and getting a climhazard that snuffs your attempt. But if you attempt to vary your timing for it every time [or after the first mess up knowing which of the earlier/later would've worked and expect your opponent to do the same timing again], your cloud opponent is going to start to worry/stress/potentially die.

something something swordie meta. No doubt tournament setting stress makes such logical adaptions a lot more complicated but it's all there.
It does have a lot of range mind you, so some characters may not really have a way to tap his head/hand during those "please do not kill me" frames. But if he's attempting to go for a 'quick as possible ledge snap' by being very low, he is still rising while having no hitboxes out.
 
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Megamang

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Because its effectively not trash tier in a lot of MUs.


Although I believe this might change in some MUs with optimizations, some characters just don't have the hitbox to challenge it when done properly. Or, more likely, they can't be in position to punish it quickly enough with the combination of a quick hit putting Cloud there without bad DI.

In long punish situations, like a high damage smash, where you have time to punish, I guess everyone can get in position and punish it. It just isn't crippling like Mac's.


Not commenting on whether that should be true or not, just saying what a nerf would change.
 
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Rizen

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But I currently feel his KO options are (ironically) limited. Beyond Limit Cross Slash he's only finding himself bairs and dairs for KOing. When you play against him realising he only has 1 KO option that comes with a big blue aura, he can struggle.
His neutral requires a lot of respect but it does not invalidate. You're forced to play his neutral-air game, but the counter play is all very simple to understand (but not so simple to implement, mind you)*
Doesn't cloud have KO options from a read like Dash attack, Uair and limit blade beam?
 

Fatmanonice

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Cloud is like a patch away from being a really solid character

I don't think he needs to be kneecapped at all; just toning down Limit Side B so that it isn't the "end all B all" KO option would do wonders for him
And dair or uair. Both are stupidly good but if one had to get knocked down a peg, I'd want it to be dair. It's so dumb. What other dair has enough kill power to spike, kill off the edges AND top, typically does 13-15%, stays out for a billion years, and can practically be auto cancelled? Cloud's aerials are already arguably the best in the game when you weigh out the usefulness of all 5 so I don't think he'd lose much if dair was made less ridiculous (plus he'd still have nair and uair so, who cares?).
 
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