4/19 Gigabits - The Melee exploded into a Brawl

[King_Peachee]

I don't really see the point of needing so many stages. I mean, I'm no tournament veteran but I enjoyed only having the neutrals available at Hard Knocks. I understand wanting more stages for the strategic purposes but I don't think they are really necessary. I think there's a good deal of strategy in picking between Battlefield and FD.

 

[Rx-]

I liked the idea of having the option to pick Delfino Plaza at Hardknocks, and I agree that there should be a handful of fairly weird counterpicks, but there definitly doesn't need to be debatable stages in the counterpick section. If half the people think it shouldn't be a counterpick, then it shouldn't be a counterpick imo.

 

[hungrybox]

Neutrals only

it is really fair that way

 

[Rohins]

Ban neutrals, Brinstar only.

Seriously wtf @ no counterpicks. I hear endless complaints about how "simple" Brawl is yet the same people complaining want to remove a pretty key element of strategy. SEEMS A BIT PECULIAR TO ME.

 

[_Riot_]

Ban neutrals, Brinstar only.

Seriously wtf @ no counterpicks. I hear endless complaints about how "simple" Brawl is yet the same people complaining want to remove a pretty key element of strategy. SEEMS A BIT PECULIAR TO ME.

This is why i have, and always will, love Rohins. The next person i see saying "neutrals only is the most fair" when i see you in tourny, i will headbutt you straight in the dck. Since when is this game based on "fairness" if thats always been the case id also love to ban edge guarding along with edge hogging, because being gimped, god ****, its just not fair wahhhhhhhhhh im an idiot.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah..."it's really only fair that way"...um, no it's not. Certain character do better or worse on neutrals...also, what exactly is a neutral? Delfino?

fyi...if anybody ever tries to ban Delfino, I'll punch them on the spot...not that it's a huge counterpick or anything...but it's one of the best Smash levels ever created.


Whereas stages aren't banned because you have to change your playstyle...a stage SHOULD be banned if it changes the course of gameplay without warning.

For instance, Halberd has interactive objects...should it be banned? definitely not, imo...
Port Town has interactive objects...should it be banned? Yes, imo.

As to why...Halberd gives more than enough warning before it does anything...as does Orpheon, for that matter....but that's another topic...

Port town randomly hits people...I think that personally detracts from any sort of competitive nature of the game...I don't mind a bit of randomness...I really like Pictochat...however, when you suddenly get hit and sometimes killed by something you can't ever see or know is coming, changing the normal outcome of the match randomly...that stage should be banned...that's just the truth.

 

[Loto]

Me and fearless will be going to this. Last time I went to gigs was for melee.....been a while. o_O

Anyway see you all there. Oh and why didn't you show for the Smash Boards + Wifi wars Tournament Fenrir? You were in my pool, lol.

 

[QDVS]

Let's all just play melee!!!

 

[Fenrir VII]

Me and fearless will be going to this. Last time I went to gigs was for melee.....been a while. o_O

Anyway see you all there. Oh and why didn't you show for the Smash Boards + Wifi wars Tournament Fenrir? You were in my pool, lol.

Yeah...that's random.

I had buttloads of HW for the next week...and a irl tournament that Sunday...so I figured why knock people out of pools for nothing, right?

 

[Loto]

Yeah...that's random.

I had buttloads of HW for the next week...and a irl tournament that Sunday...so I figured why knock people out of pools for nothing, right?

Hahah, works for me....xD

 

[Zoro]

neutrals only is dumb as hell
why would we change it from melee!?

 

[Angrylobster]

Nuetrals only is a horrible idea imo, you'd be eliminating key elements of strategy

 

[hungrybox]

Fine!

But at least make the cp's decent.

 

[Mr H is MARIO]

Imma de de de it up at gigabits.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fine!

But at least make the cp's decent.

Um...that's been the point of the past three pages in this thread...We're trying.

 

[OTRU...]

We kinda need to have this figured out by next weekend.

Counterpicks are def necessary.

I like Dguy's suggestions btw

 

[CaptainCrunch]

well in the past, from the way I see it, some characters in melee had an advantage in certain stages, thats why stage banning was allowed so that is you knew your opponent played marth you could ban corneria or fox and space station, or if you just didn't like a stage.

Anyways for certain characters this is not the case in brawl. Assuming you allowed shadow moses and bridge of Eldin or so on and had to fight a DDD you'd be hard pressed to find a ban because any stage with a wall or with a walk off edge would be deadly for you.

I don't want to ban tactics because thats part of the general play of a character but in brawl more than one stage give a clear advantage to certain characters. If we could surround CP Stages around characters it would be "fairer." As in only have one stage that DDD is broken in or other such characters. I also don't think you can say, "You can chaingrab in this stage, but not in that one."

I think having stages like pirate ship for CP is perfectly acceptable since it gives certain characters an advantage and is worse for other characters. Remember that if there are CP it would only be fair to have bans. So if your character is bad on a stage just ban it.

You can't expect to have a huge amount of CP choices but you also can't expect to ban CPs all together.

 

[Finch]

Resuming the stage discussion.

To begin with, people need to understand that a stage is not banned because it has an attribute that interferes with the fight or can kill someone. A stage is banned because it offers an opportunity for unfair or uneven play. Therefore, do not assume stage X is banned because it has something that kills you, or because it has something that interferes with the battle.

Something stage-related that kills you at very low percents or greatly disrupts a fight is the only thing I can think of that offers the opportunity for fair or uneven play. Why was Brinstar Depths banned in Melee?

Do not assume that banned stages in Melee are banned in Brawl, and do not assume that legal stages in Melee are legal in Brawl.

A stage should not be banned just because certain characters have an advantage on it over others.(Referring to Finch's comment about G&W on PS2 being a reason to ban PS2) What was the entire purpose of counter picking again?

Most of the stages that were banned in Melee were banned because Fox had a broken tactic on them.

I usually don't attack opinions directly, but people thinking that Pirate Ship should be banned have pretty silly opinions.

As for walls, if we as a community decide that Dedede chain grabbing someone against a wall is an unfair tactic, then why not ban the tactic itself and allow the stages? Either way the tactic will not be happening, but in one scenario you have a lot more stages allowed for tournament play.

We didn't ban Fox's laser and run away for 8 minutes tactic in Melee, we just banned the stages. I don't think anyone wanted to play tournament matches on Hyrule anyway.

Now ignoring the Dedede wallgrab, Shadow Moses is a stage I personally do not like. That said, I do not believe it should necessarily be banned. The walls are breakable and once broken you can KO out of the map sideways. It is simply a strategy that would need to be used on that map for characters that have weak vertical KO power.

I have not encountered the invisible cars on Port Town. If you truly can be KOed by something that can't be seen, then this stage loses a lot of credibility. However, those complaining about this stage due to the damage and knockback level the cars provide need to realize that that is no reason at all to ban a stage.

I have already argued the reasons why PS1 should remain a neutral, I don't feel I need to repeat it.

I don't understand why we should allow stages to be counterpicks that give certain characters such ridiculous tactics. If Port Town had no invisible cars, but the cars that can be seen and are almost impossible to avoid kill at very low percents, any Jigglypuff or someone else who can stall in the air for a long time can counterpick that stage and get a free no skill win in a tournament set just by camping until that point for three stocks. Counterpicks should give character advantages, but this is the kind of stuff that detracts completely from the competitiveness of the game. The stages we don't ban should definitely be unfair to certain characters, but not so unfair that someone with a lot less skill than their opponent can use it to get a win against them.

Edit: @ QDVS call me and we shall play melee.

 

[GodMeowMix]

I was wondering if theres anyone that is near Ocala or passes by it going to Gigs could hook me up with a ride, cause i would really like to go. I will try to help with gas. AIMs in profile.

 

[dguy6789]

Something stage-related that kills you at very low percents or greatly disrupts a fight is the only thing I can think of that offers the opportunity for fair or uneven play. Why was Brinstar Depths banned in Melee?

Stages like Brinstar Depths and Icicle Mountain "greatly" disrupted gameplay. Bans for that reason are fine. However, greatly disrupting gameplay is a soft term, so each stage must be looked at individually and with caution.

Most of the stages that were banned in Melee were banned because Fox had a broken tactic on them.

Yes this is true.

We didn't ban Fox's laser and run away for 8 minutes tactic in Melee, we just banned the stages. I don't think anyone wanted to play tournament matches on Hyrule anyway.

Moving around is a lot more debatable/arguable than standing against a wall and down throwing is. ("I am stalling the match/camping" vs "I was just avoiding his attacks") Whereas Dedede's wallgrab is a very clear cut tactic, there are probably an infinite number of ways a Fox player can move about as he pleases. Stages like 75M and New Pork City are banned(Or at least that is a major contributing factor) because someone could run around like it was Hyrule.

It would be extremely easy to just ban the tactic. If the tactic ends up not being banned, then all stages with walls will have to be banned. I just don't see the point. Either way, the tactic isn't allowed, but in one of the situations, you have more stages, which can't be a bad thing in my book. It is pretty easy to not waveshine someone against a wall in Melee, and I assume it should be pretty easy to not accidentally INFINITE someone in Brawl.

I don't understand why we should allow stages to be counterpicks that give certain characters such ridiculous tactics. If Port Town had no invisible cars, but the cars that can be seen and are almost impossible to avoid kill at very low percents, any Jigglypuff or someone else who can stall in the air for a long time can counterpick that stage and get a free no skill win in a tournament set just by camping until that point for three stocks. Counterpicks should give character advantages, but this is the kind of stuff that detracts completely from the competitiveness of the game. The stages we don't ban should definitely be unfair to certain characters, but not so unfair that someone with a lot less skill than their opponent can use it to get a win against them.

If you get hit by a car that you can see coming, it is your fault, that is in no way unpredictable or unavoidable. I agree with the rest of your statement. I am trying to argue that a lot of the stages people think should be banned shouldn't be banned. People only dislike them because they aren't neutral ish enough. Rainbow Cruise, Pokefloats, Brinstar in Melee. They are stages that a TON of people did not like, but they were still legal. I don't want to have stages like these banned in Brawl just because people don't like them. Stages should only be banned if there is a good reason for it.

 

[Finch]

Just out of curiosity, why are Flat Zone 2 and Hanenbow on your banned stages list? Both of those stages seem perfectly legitimate to me given your leniency for disruptiveness.

 

[dguy6789]

Flatzone 2 is out because it has properties that "greatly disrupt play". I have seen stuff just appear and hit someone and bounce them all over the place into other stuff racking up massive damage. That is too game altering in my opinion. There is no real way to be ready for or to see some things coming on this stage.

Thinking about it a bit more, I think it might have been a mistake putting Hanenbow on the banned list. It looks like a reasonable counterpick.

 

[Rx-]

Hanenbow is one of the few that I agree with as a counterpick. Nothing random, nothing confusing.

Stages like Norfair shouldn't be counterpicks, because at least 5 times every match, you have to do major dodging, or stop serious fighting for some other reason.

Stages like Shadow Moses might be acceptable counterpicks, but I would still prefer less counterpicks, simply because we don't NEED to have a ton of weird/hazardous ones, and no one's even good at this game yet.

If you're not good enough at the game to win without majorly gimmicky stages, you should practice more.

I understand counterpicks like Delfino Plaza, it messes with Snake a little bit, and helped me out just enough to beat Max at Hard Knocks in our second match.

The problem I have is with stages where the fighting stops for whatever reason, and people wait a few seconds for the stage to change, or a hazard to disappear.

 

[Laijin]

You guys are ridiculous. I'll make it simple for you.
Stages were banned in melee for the following reasons:
Fox
Randomness
Infinites

Yep. Thats about it. The last one is a bit iffy(Since some stages will still probably be possible for infinites), but semi-infinites that could happen are OK(Example: Fox's shine infinite on Pokemon Stadium until the stage changes. Young Link's AAA infinite on that stage as well).

Stages were not banned in melee because:
It gave some characters an obvious advantage or an unfair advantage(If that was a reason. Im sure Brinstar and Pokefloats would be super banned for obvious reasons).
Its gimmicky and gay(Stage kills you. Yea..avoid ****. Alright?)
Stage kills


Im sure what im saying is fact. Take a better look at the melee stages if you dont believe me or if you doubt me.

Anyways. This argument thats going on is the stupidest **** i've ever seen. Its something i'd expect to see on the brawl boards. But well..I guess ******** arguments like this happens whenever brawl is mentioned. It'd make sense though. A bad game brings bad arguments. :O

 

[Fenrir VII]

Laijin, explain Big Blue being total banned. It wasn't overly random...it followed a pattern. Everybody just realized "hey, this is just a gay stage"


Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium 1
Norfair
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Green Hill Zone
Corneria
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Onett
Pipes (Yoshi's Island - Melee)
Pictochat
Distant Planet

Banned:

Jungle Japes
Pokemon Stadium 2
Bridge of Eldin
Big Blue
Mario Circuit
Shadow Moses Island
Port Town
Skyworld
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
New Pork City sucks
Summit
75M
Mario Bros. Old
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
WarioWare
Spear Pillar

That's my list...and there are a couple stages I really don't like on it... I just think it's a lot less gay than other lists.

Stages that permanently have walk offs that are easy to get with DDD should be banned...that's the only possible circumstance here.I'm talking mainly about Bridge of Eldin / Shadow moses/ Mario circuit here. Stages that have transformation walk offs (Delfino, Castle Siege) aren't bad, because a person should be able to avoid in the time limit...I'm ok with those.
Stages that have a permanent wall are tricky.

You mentioned banning DDD's wall CG...and I might agree with this, if it gets ridiculous (like IC wobbling...let people dual allow it, but generally consider it banned) Let him get three grabs once against the wall and then do a different throw. simple enough. The grab is an easy setup...much easier than Fox's wall shine in this game...although that maybe should be banned, too. However, it's not fair to DDD to ban cg's off walk off stages...and it's ridiculous to think about enforcing. The stages that affects, though, have multiple problems anyway, so I really don't see any problems with banning them.


I don't mind stages that make you adapt to the stage and changing things...I'm a huge advocate of Pictochat and Orpheon...and I absolutely love delfino... However, stages that completely disrupt the flow of normal tournament play should be banned. I'm sorry...but they really should.

Port town's invisible hits alone are enough to ban it. done with that.
Mario Circuit's walk off...combined with how often you have to keep moving up down up down...it's a sucky stage...and one person can camp under ledges and such...it's just bad.
PS2. Now this one's subjective...but the 10 second low grav period...combined with the conveyors of death that screw edgeguarding...combined with the lack of any GOOD transformation really kill this stage for me. It's really disruptive to normal play...and it's really not that good, anyway...so I don't see the need for arguing it.

Now, I banned Japes because the water is an instant death near the left side of the screen...that sucks. I really don't like the water mechanic on this one stage.

I actually think I was fairly liberal in stage allowance on my list...so I'm kinda hoping that we can come to an agreement. Of course, as our knowledge of techniques increase, we will learn a more accurate stage banning list...but for right now, I think this looks pretty good. Like I said, I cringe at the sight of a few counterpick stages...but overall, I think it's a good list right now.

 

[h1roshi]

frigate orpheon is a good stage. i like it. im not too sure about pictochat though. it is just way too random. you can get exploded by drawn bombs and pointy edges. theres slopes and ledges and walls galore. i think its a tad too much. i personally like it, and would play on it myslef, but i dont think it would be a fair tournament level.

-hiro

 

[Fenrir VII]

frigate orpheon is a good stage. i like it. im not too sure about pictochat though. it is just way too random. you can get exploded by drawn bombs and pointy edges. theres slopes and ledges and walls galore. i think its a tad too much. i personally like it, and would play on it myslef, but i dont think it would be a fair tournament level.

-hiro

Yeah...I like pictochat...but I'm not sure how fair it is. I said I was a bit liberal in my list...so we could discuss it.

 

[h1roshi]

i was just playing on it the other day, it was too fun. but i honestly think that it has just too too random for tournament play lol. i guess a couple more months before a BIG official list comes out.

-hiro

 

[Rx-]

Forget Pictochat! That's got to be the perfect example of a definate ban. That stage has so much garbage going on constantly, you might as well turn items on.

And did anyone think changing the Pot Split to 40/20/10 instead of 50/15/5 for this tournament was a good idea? It's so hard to get answers these days.

 

[OTRU...]

I don't think we should ban the tactic, but instead just find those stages in which ddd can abuse this tactic and ban them.

I like fenrir suggestions except for norfair, pictochat and green hill zone. The latter is no good because its a run off level; pictochat because it has too many hazards, barriers or unexpected things that could KO anyone; and norfair its just too gay when the lava comes, the purpose of the match is to fight the opponent not try to run away for safety...

And I think Rx's idea is awesome since we will have a bigger amount of people coming to the tourney we should pay out a lil bit more to the 3rd place

 

[Mr H is MARIO]

I think that we should all play on warioware, everyone on warioware all matches best out of 3. The payout should be 10/10/10/10/10/ to the top 5. No joke.

 

[Proteus]

Agree with Fenrir's list. I would add Hanenbow as a counterpick, but that's just me.

And for Pictochat, it's really a tossup for me. Only 2 of the hazards can kill you (cart and vertical spikes) and they have a low chance of appearing. If it's banned I understand why but I'd keep it.

Edit: W00t, 100th post!

 

[purekorea]

Only 3 grabs that's mean darrel I should be able to wall cg infinitely!!!

I agree more with Otru's "ban the stage the tactic works on" =)

I think banning walk off in good not because the chain throw but because edgeguarding is a major part of competitive smash gameplay.

pictochat is amazing btw.

 

[hungrybox]

Kirby can infinte rock on the edge of pictochat

you can't hit him out of it

Ask Brian.

My list:

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium 1 (CP is fine, just not neutral)
Luigi's Mansion (Nothing too bad about it, "broken" stage)
Delfino Plaza (Fairest CP)
Frigate Orpheon (2nd fairest CP)
Halberd ( A slow Mute City)
Green Hill Zone (ehhhhh...)
Corneria (CP's are CP's)
Green Greens (If it was ok in melee it should be fine here....good for lucas)
Rainbow Cruise (A tad small in the beginning, might gay out people with bad recovery)
Castle Siege (Can't you CG to hell in the 2nd tier?)
Brinstar (NJ)
Pipes (Yoshi's Island - Melee) (I think DDD can CG here....w/e, i'll just CG them!)
Distant Planet (The rain makes it unfair...Bouncy stage?)

Banned:

Pirate Ship (Little stick ***** you, Cannonballs, no spiking, floatines, etc.)
Norfair (Match is too interrupted on this party stage)
Jungle Japes (Water ****)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (A. It's gay. B. Ice is slippery, wind is floaty, TREADMILLS??)
Bridge of Eldin (DDRAPE)
Big Blue (**** that stage)
Onett (You can only get killed sideways, random cars hitting you, DDRape, etc.)
Pictochat (Randomosity to the ****ing max, Infinite Rock Kirby Stall/Earthquake)
Mario Circuit (DDRape, Dumb Cars)
Shadow Moses Island (Long-lasting Wall Combo's, DDRape)
Port Town (Invisible Cars kills you at, what, 20%?)
Skyworld (Gayest of the gay, TOO MANY CEILINGS)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Aren't we playing brawl?)
Rumble Falls (Speed-up *****, some DDrape, Random Spikes, Slow characters have disadvantage, etc.)
New Pork City (No.)
Summit (Ice *****, Floaty tier lasts way too long, give slow fallers way too much disadvantage, fish ****)
75M (The M stands for "masochism" or for "milliseconds")
Mario Bros. Old (Self-explanatory)
Flat Zone 2 (Each tier fux characters up, cagemen **** everyone, WAY too small)
Hanenbow (Hm...The platforms are sort of random, the water on the bottom trix people, strange layout)
Hyrule Temple (Ain't goin' back there)
WarioWare (My high score is 128 on Hard Mode)
Spear Pillar (I'll just chill down here...TIME!!!!)

 

[Crom]

Don't think everyone will be able to come to an agreement on counterpicks, might as well do neutrals only until an official list is released

This would be my opinion for the stage list though:

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza

Maybe:

Luigi's Mansion
Halberd
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise

 

[Finch]

Most people are saying the same stages for counterpick, with a few discrepancies here and there. Neutrals only is dumb. Gigs, just make a list.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't think we should ban the tactic, but instead just find those stages in which ddd can abuse this tactic and ban them.

I like fenrir suggestions except for norfair, pictochat and green hill zone. The latter is no good because its a run off level; pictochat because it has too many hazards, barriers or unexpected things that could KO anyone; and norfair its just too gay when the lava comes, the purpose of the match is to fight the opponent not try to run away for safety...

And I think Rx's idea is awesome since we will have a bigger amount of people coming to the tourney we should pay out a lil bit more to the 3rd place

Only 3 grabs that's mean darrel I should be able to wall cg infinitely!!!

I agree more with Otru's "ban the stage the tactic works on" =)

I think banning walk off in good not because the chain throw but because edgeguarding is a major part of competitive smash gameplay.

pictochat is amazing btw.

Well, I'm trying to ban permanent walk offs....partially for Will's reasoning behind it. no edgeguarding + DDD awkwardness...it's just not a fun idea. and really, the walk off levels aren't that good anyway.

I'm just not sure about banning stages with permanent walls...that's my concern about it. I'm not sure which stages this entails...but I know certain stages do have transformation walls and such...I don't think those really come into play here.

Explain this kirby rock thing on pictochat. I really like the level, but I'm seriously 50-50 on whether to ban it. I don't really think the hazards are too bad, but the wind one and the big brick pyramid thing that you can't drop through, but you can stay inside...those are kinda gay

Hanenbow is one of the worst level spacings I've ever seen...add that to the fact that when it changes, it can actually stop people from recovering. There's no reason that it should be allowed.

Norfair...I really don't like. I think it promotes camping...kills any sort of edge guarding and adds randomness to the game with particularly the lava spouts from the back. the side lava and ground lava really don't bother me, but the wave and the spouts...yeah, I'm banning that on my list.

Pirate Ship isn't unfair...get over it. It's slightly random, but everything is really avoidable...the flicker can be DIed...there's nothing too wrong with that stage as counterpick.

Also...Green Hill Zone got past me...blah... here's my new list.

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Pokemon Stadium 1
Luigi's Mansion
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Corneria
Green Greens
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Onett
Pipes (Yoshi's Island - Melee)
Pictochat
Distant Planet

Banned:

Green Hill Zone
Norfair
Jungle Japes
Pokemon Stadium 2
Bridge of Eldin
Big Blue
Mario Circuit
Shadow Moses Island
Port Town
Skyworld
Mushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
New Pork City
Summit
75M
Mario Bros. Old
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
WarioWare
Spear Pillar


Up for discussion now...

Distant planet?
Pictochat?
Pirate Ship?

I'm looking for knowledgeable and reasonable posts here....explain what you're thinking.

 

[dguy6789]

Pirate ship should not be banned. Nothing in it kills you that isn't extremely easy to avoid and be seen well before it hits you, it is fairer than Halberd in my opinion.

Pictochat should be legal simply because it has been legal in a LOT of big Brawl tournaments previously and nobody complained about it at all. It also isn't anywhere near as bad as everybody is saying. It isn't super random, all the changes are slow, and very few of them are even remotely dangerous. Nothing in this stage is that bad.

Distant Planet should be a counter pick because there is nothing wrong with it. It is a stage with platforms with an occasion side platform and a lower platform that becomes unusable at certain points in the game.

I have still not been given a single reason to make PS1 a non neutral that hasn't already been refuted. Everybody just says "I don't like it." It is almost identical to the one in Melee with some small changes. A lame ledge just like FD and Lylat, and a more solid windmill.

I don't really get people saying "we don't need too many stages". I ask why not? How is more stages in any way a bad thing? More stages equals more variety and more opporutunities for strategy. The only stages that should be banned are as stated above, the stages that extremely break gameplay. If Dedede's wallgrab tactic isn't banned, the only option then would be to ban stages with permanent walls. I do agree with Fenrir that stages with temporary walls should remain legal. Walk off stages would have to be banned too, unfortunately.

I still don't think Norfair should be banned. Lava is easy to avoid and is either slow or can be seen coming, and you don't even have to get inside the box for when the big wave comes, it can be air dodged, spot dodged, or just shielded.

I have still not encountered Port Town's invisible cars, probably because I haven't played it too much, but if it is as bad as everybody says it is, then I suppose it gets the ban.

PS2 is still a fine counter pick for me. The default mode is extremely playable. The conveyors make it hard to ledge guard for when it is out, and the wind mode gives the advantage to the person not using aerials. I feel it only offers opportunity for strategy. Sure it has a few "weird" aspects, but nothing that is half as bad as everyone is saying.

Hanenbow should be a counter pick in my opinion. After looking at it carefully, it actually has a solid floor section with grabbable ledges. The rest of the stage is just an assortment of platforms, and the water is just for show, you fall through it as if it wasn't there. There are no obstacles or interferences in this stage. The appearance is the only thing that makes it strange. Transformations aren't too big of a deal, don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't like Hanenbow, but those are my thoughts regarding its legality.

What of Onett? I assume you left it on because a car will eventually disrupt Dedede's wallgrab?

I agree with the unmentioned portions of Fenrir's list.

 

[purekorea]

Picochat:
I love Picochat but I have a hard time seeing people agree with it.
Half the transformations allow Dedede to wall chainthrow.
Nearly all promote camping to a degree.
No warning of change unlike PS1 (the screen in the back)
Cart and Spear points can kill. (avoidable) bullets and the fire are minor annoyances although the fire might make for some cool combos =D

Great Sea:
Nothing wrong with this stage as a counter pick at all.

Flicker- as Darrel said DI it. It covers a TINY area its not like the entire boat flicks you off and it's always at the same spot. Or avoid the spot for 5 seconds...

Bombs- They shoot in 3 general spots left, right, middle if you just pay attention to the trajectory all you have to do is jump or roll or run out of that spot. The bombs take enough time getting there for you to avoid it.

Storm- lasts for 10 seconds about. On the way up can leave people behind if they are stupid and stay in the water. About 5 seconds of low gravity.... can't really complain about that.

Only thing wrong with the stage is when it hits the rock. Giving a wall for Dedede or fox. Also can get campy one person on the rock, other on the ship

I don't like distant planet no reason just personal preference. =)

edit:
Just read Dguys post gonna give opinions on some of the stages he listed.
PS2.
Wind level- If you're in the air it's too hard to get back down. Any one decent should be able to keep you in the air for a while. Since jumping is slower and punishable air game dependant characters will suffer. Example I can't short hop bair approach with Dedede he just floats over smaller characters and I get hit out of it all the time.

Treadmill level-Slow characters have a hard time getting off the edge. Get up, fall right back down. The only way to get off the edge is jumping. Reducing their options on the ledge. Which might lead them to just stall on the edge. Basically get big slow characters on the edge and if they try to get up it a free hit.

Ice Level-Other than the sliding around nothing really wrong with it. But the sliding makes it difficult to control your character.
Fun note: If you try run and turn around your character will stay stuck in the run turnaround animation all the way across stadium looks funny with Dedede. You can't shield or attack but you can jump out of it.
Also I heard Ice Climbers don't slide on ice.

Dirt level- Fairest of the 4 until you realize the mound in the middle is a wall =D I don't know if the left side is a wall but the right side is.

Am I missing a transformation?

So that's 1 good form(default) 2 Bad and 2 Decent in my opinion. I'd like to not play on it

Hanenbow-
Platform moving disrupts combos at times (we know how hard those are to get in brawl)
Platform set at the top and bottom left promotes camping.
I've heard Grappel recoveries gets confused on that stage not all the time but there is a chance. (could someone confirm?) If true then alot of the cast have their recovery options limited and in the case of olimar and Ivysaur they have no recovery. The water won't even save them.
It's too noisy.
Not really a location big enough for actual fighting. 2 hits and you run out of floor room.

Norfair-
Alright stage on its own. But the stages gimmicks are too frequent and dominating.
Lava walls makes half the stage unplayable.
Lava spurts sections off a quarter of the stage. Hard to see where it is hitting. Disrupts gameplay.
Lava Rising- Only top plaforms playable too far a distance between the two platforms.
Lava wave CAN be shielded, rolled, sidesteped, and air dodged. But it forces everyone to stop playing to be defensive.
Ledges promote stalling. Grab top ledge. Drop to lower one. UpB back to top and repeat.
Good stage but too many disruptions for competitive gameplay.

 

[hungrybox]

Well Counterpicks are only needed if you lose the neutral match

I'm gonna counter pick a neutral stage lol.

I usually do.