3.5 Update speculation thread: Please ground your expectations to contain HYPE

[Terotrous]

Honestly, while I like the ledge stall change, I feel that it should just work like Smash 4 - Grab the ledge again after grabbing it once and you get zero invincibility. 5 ledge grabs is still an unnecessary amount of stall.

Oh well, I'm already looking forward to the lack of Rage mechanic in PM 3.5. Seriously, who the hell thought that was a good idea? "I know, let's make it so you lose all your KO power when you die! Because comebacks are lame!"


As for changes, I just want Jiggs and ICs to be better. Some little adjustments to other low tiers would be good too but those two need it the most.

 

[pooch182]

Honestly, while I like the ledge stall change, I feel that it should just work like Smash 4 - Grab the ledge again after grabbing it once and you get zero invincibility. 5 ledge grabs is still an unnecessary amount of stall.

The problem with this lies in many characters having poor mixups from the ledge. Sometimes, it's necessary to use a few regrabs of ledge to safely return to stage. Does this make getting back any more dumbed down and easy? Not really. It's still up to the player to make use of the refresh, and they still need to make the smart decision that the opponent doesn't properly cover.

Removing refresh would inevitably lead to several more SDs caused by missed ledge dashes. People need to make every frame of that invincibility count, and ledge dashing is a relatively precise execution that trades the reward of a (sometimes) invincible means of counter-attacking someone guarding the ledge at the cost of losing a stock or being completely vulnerable if the player doesn't properly execute or is to slow to input. Forcing even more of a reaction time so that they get one chance at an invincible ledge dash out of many possible stressful situations just doesn't allow for reasonably optimized play at the ledge.

Not to mention, when you bring doubles into play, ledge invincibility is HUGE. Not only does it let a player avoid getting bullied in a two on one while their teammate respawns, it also allows a teammate to occupy ledge safely in an attempt to let their partner recover to the ledge. There's a lot of application for the refresh, so just flat out removing it just takes away a lot of depth for seemingly no reason other than that people seem to impatient to deal with it. Nut up and wait it out. Establish positional advantage, heal as Ivy, charge a charge shot or aura sphere. Make use of the time and stage your opponent gives you while they refresh.

 

[Roxas215]

One thing I'll never understand is why nerf a character that isn't winning any large tournaments unless there is some mechanic about them that is absolutely broken?

I think we can all agree that characters like M2, Pit, Lucas, Link, Diddy, and Mario need a bit of a nerf. Pit's arrows are an nonpunishable projectile that combos into kill moves. Lucas has an amazing recovery and great combos and shield pressure. Link has extremely powerful kill moves that he can combo into from his most spammable projectile. Diddy has bananas and barrels from his recovery, but outside that he is fine. Mario has a high damaging, fast, spammable projectile, guaranteed kill move set ups, and amazing recovery. I believe every player is aware of these characters needing minor nerfs, and IMO, that's fine.

However, I hear talks of Ness having his PK Fire no longer activate on shield because it's "annoying." That makes zero sense, IMO. The most notable Ness player is Awestin, and he hasn't done anything too magnificent. Just learn to avoid it instead of getting hit. Ness has one move outside of this, magnet, that is positive on shields and allows him to punish. Ness mains can do almost nothing to an opponent who just chills in their shield and punishes approaches with fast OOS options such as shine. It's just silly. It's my understanding that Ness is generally considered a mid tier character at best despite this "broken option."

My question still stands. Why nerf a character just because a mechanic is "annoying" when that character has very few other options and isn't usually considered a high tier to begin with?

There are stuff that are "broken" and there are stuff that is just "dumb" BOTH needs to be fixed imo. Like i said i doubt anyone is actually saying Zelda was this very powerful character that no one one could beat. That doesn't mean that tons of stuff about her wasn't just dumb.(Ivy as well to a extent. And i play Ivy)

M2/Lucas etc has broken properties about their character

BOTH of these should be fixed. Ness pk fire hitting on block falls in the first category.

 

[Boiko]

There are stuff that are "broken" and there are stuff that is just "dumb" BOTH needs to be fixed imo. Like i said i doubt anyone is actually saying Zelda was this very powerful character that no one one could beat. That doesn't mean that tons of stuff about her wasn't just dumb.(Ivy as well to a extent. And i play Ivy)

M2/Lucas etc has broken properties about their character

BOTH of these should be fixed. Ness pk fire hitting on block falls in the first category.

Dumb to you may not be dumb to others. This is the exact player mentality I was referencing in my earlier post: players that don't try to adapt and instead cite something as "dumb" because they don't like it. I personally don't think anything is dumb about Ivy besides her largely flawed recovery. Same with Zelda. What's "dumb" about her? DF is just okay, her recovery is slow and punishable, she's light, and has a mid tier neutral game. She has free combos on spacies ....on FD. Sounds more like people couldn't adapt and immediately cited it as jank. Disregard this if you're speaking to previous iterations of the game. I only have experience with 3.02.

Like I said, just one man's opinion.

 

[Roxas215]

Dumb to you may not be dumb to others. This is the exact player mentality I was referencing in my earlier post: players that don't try to adapt and instead cite something as "dumb" because they don't like it. I personally don't think anything is dumb about Ivy besides her largely flawed recovery. Same with Zelda. What's "dumb" about her? DF is just okay, her recovery is slow and punishable, she's light, and has a mid tier neutral game. She has free combos on spacies ....on FD. Sounds more like people couldn't adapt and immediately cited it as jank. Disregard this if you're speaking to previous iterations of the game. I only have experience with 3.02.

Like I said, just one man's opinion.

It's one thing to adapt. It's another to accept foolish changes just because it's "not broken" Like i said i secondary ivy and i'll be the first one to tell you Ivy is a stupid ass character. She's not broken though.


The complaints are loud enough to be taken into consideration at the least. I don't really have a problem with ness but pk fire hitting on block again imo is just another example of the PMBR making changes just because they have the tools to do so. Not because it's a actual change the character needed.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Dumb to you may not be dumb to others. This is the exact player mentality I was referencing in my earlier post: players that don't try to adapt and instead cite something as "dumb" because they don't like it. I personally don't think anything is dumb about Ivy besides her largely flawed recovery. Same with Zelda. What's "dumb" about her? DF is just okay, her recovery is slow and punishable, she's light, and has a mid tier neutral game. She has free combos on spacies ....on FD. Sounds more like people couldn't adapt and immediately cited it as jank. Disregard this if you're speaking to previous iterations of the game. I only have experience with 3.02.

Like I said, just one man's opinion.

You can make Ness good in other ways without giving him one really silly move you know.

The thing about Ness is that for one thing in a bunch of situations, PK Fire is literally his best option 100% of the time. Needs to tone that down, and buff his other moves so nothing is too overtly strong. Same with Mewtwo. TP Hover aerial is pretty much his best neutral option 100% of the time.

 

[Boiko]

You can make Ness good in other ways without giving him one really silly move you know.

The thing about Ness is that for one thing in a bunch of situations, PK Fire is literally his best option 100% of the time. Needs to tone that down, and buff his other moves so nothing is too overtly strong. Same with Mewtwo. TP Hover aerial is pretty much his best neutral option 100% of the time.

I actually agree with this 100 percent. His other option in neutral is spaced fairs which gets punished if you hit a shield. He relies heavily on grab combos but has one of the smallest grab ranges in the game. If you're going to give him one option in the neutral and then mitigate the effectiveness of that option, you defeat the character. If PKF is going to be nerfed because people are complaining about it, give the character something else to supplement it. Like an OOS option to deal with the inevitable pressure you'll face.

 

[Terotrous]

The problem with this lies in many characters having poor mixups from the ledge. Sometimes, it's necessary to use a few regrabs of ledge to safely return to stage. Does this make getting back any more dumbed down and easy? Not really. It's still up to the player to make use of the refresh, and they still need to make the smart decision that the opponent doesn't properly cover.

Removing refresh would inevitably lead to several more SDs caused by missed ledge dashes. People need to make every frame of that invincibility count, and ledge dashing is a relatively precise execution that trades the reward of a (sometimes) invincible means of counter-attacking someone guarding the ledge at the cost of losing a stock or being completely vulnerable if the player doesn't properly execute or is to slow to input. Forcing even more of a reaction time so that they get one chance at an invincible ledge dash out of many possible stressful situations just doesn't allow for reasonably optimized play at the ledge.

Not to mention, when you bring doubles into play, ledge invincibility is HUGE. Not only does it let a player avoid getting bullied in a two on one while their teammate respawns, it also allows a teammate to occupy ledge safely in an attempt to let their partner recover to the ledge. There's a lot of application for the refresh, so just flat out removing it just takes away a lot of depth for seemingly no reason other than that people seem to impatient to deal with it. Nut up and wait it out. Establish positional advantage, heal as Ivy, charge a charge shot or aura sphere. Make use of the time and stage your opponent gives you while they refresh.

Well obviously the ability to be totally invincible for 10+ seconds is going to be something that has a lot of applications. However, I don't feel you SHOULD get an easy escape in, say, a doubles situation where your partner just got KOed. I feel that for you to be at a disadvantage there is a very reasonable mechanic.

Also, ledge dashing would not really be necessary if the invincibility was removed. Ledge dashing is basically the only counter to how insanely broken ledge invincibility is in this game (as you can see from the gif, Fox is literally invincible for every single frame as he ledge hogs). Without the invincibility if he attempted that you could just downsmash.

That being said, I don't expect this to change. Melee players would never accept it. Even the 5 stall limit will probably accept people.

 

[Shadow Huan]

who cares what Melee players think? They're mostly playing Melee aren't they?

 

[JOE!]

Ganon has a hover

M2's tail is shortened and he can no longer hover out of teleport

Lucas's pk freeze will no longer combo into anything unless it is at point blank range, and his upthrow sucks

All tethers have a super laggy get up animation

Knuckles is a playable character

Fox regains the M2k angle on his up B and his short hop matches his melee short hop

Zelda is completely redesigned

Ness's pk fire no longer activates on shield

It's like he knows

 

[Renji64]

I like where P:M is going so far I main DK so i'm fine atm I would like a new menu down the line.

 

[Sorry:(]

I would like a solution to the similarity of inputs for shield dropping, spot-dodging, and tilting the shield downwards (blocking low). It is workable, but unnecessarily difficult.

Since B does nothing while in shield, it could solve shield dropping. Making shield + B + down (control stick) cause you to shield drop would make this technique accessible like it is in smash 64. Then you could just hold down after fast-fall L-canceling an arial and tap b to shield drop.

An option for making shield + down on control stick only tilt the shield downwards (no spot dodge) would make sense because thats basically how all other fighting games handle low blocking. As long as you learn spot dodging with c-stick, it wouldn't mess you up in other smash titles.

These two changes together might be too big of a change to the game though because it would create a reverse aerial-out-of-shield option. If you are on a platform above Marth for example, with a shield tilted down and he up-tilts you, you could just tap B to shield drop after the hit to nair him. You could nair-out-of-shield downwards! Which I guess you already can, just not so easily when you are blocking low.

You could also switch these to make shield dropping just like smash 64, the game where people actually use it. Then B would tilt the shield down and pressing down while in shield on a platform would just make you drop. Would be weird compared to other fighting games though.

 

[Boiko]

I would like a solution to the similarity of inputs for shield dropping, spot-dodging, and tilting the shield downwards (blocking low). It is workable, but unnecessarily difficult.

Since B does nothing while in shield, it could solve shield dropping. Making shield + B + down (control stick) cause you to shield drop would make this technique accessible like it is in smash 64. Then you could just hold down after fast-fall L-canceling an arial and tap b to shield drop.

An option for making shield + down on control stick only tilt the shield downwards (no spot dodge) would make sense because thats basically how all other fighting games handle low blocking. As long as you learn spot dodging with c-stick, it wouldn't mess you up in other smash titles.

These two changes together might be too big of a change to the game though because it would create a reverse aerial-out-of-shield option. If you are on a platform above Marth for example, with a shield tilted down and he up-tilts you, you could just tap B to shield drop after the hit to nair him. You could nair-out-of-shield downwards! Which I guess you already can, just not so easily when you are blocking low.

You could also switch these to make shield dropping just like smash 64, the game where people actually use it. Then B would tilt the shield down and pressing down while in shield on a platform would just make you drop. Would be weird compared to other fighting games though.

For something so highly rewarding, such as punishing Marth's utilt on a platform with an SD nair, don't you think you should have to practice and earn that punish, rather than have it handed to you?

I have zero trouble angling my shield and I'm relatively consistent at shield dropping. Just practice.

 

[Sorry:(]

For something so highly rewarding, such as punishing Marth's utilt on a platform with an SD nair, don't you think you should have to practice and earn that punish, rather than have it handed to you?

I have zero trouble angling my shield and I'm relatively consistent at shield dropping. Just practice.

I too can angle my shield and occasionally shield drop. But I don't think dropping out of a shield should be harder than jumping out of one. I'm with smash 64 on this one. MARTH MUST BE PUNISHED!!!!!

 

[TreK]

The problem with this lies in many characters having poor mixups from the ledge. Sometimes, it's necessary to use a few regrabs of ledge to safely return to stage. Does this make getting back any more dumbed down and easy? Not really. It's still up to the player to make use of the refresh, and they still need to make the smart decision that the opponent doesn't properly cover.

Removing refresh would inevitably lead to several more SDs caused by missed ledge dashes. People need to make every frame of that invincibility count, and ledge dashing is a relatively precise execution that trades the reward of a (sometimes) invincible means of counter-attacking someone guarding the ledge at the cost of losing a stock or being completely vulnerable if the player doesn't properly execute or is to slow to input. Forcing even more of a reaction time so that they get one chance at an invincible ledge dash out of many possible stressful situations just doesn't allow for reasonably optimized play at the ledge.

Not to mention, when you bring doubles into play, ledge invincibility is HUGE. Not only does it let a player avoid getting bullied in a two on one while their teammate respawns, it also allows a teammate to occupy ledge safely in an attempt to let their partner recover to the ledge. There's a lot of application for the refresh, so just flat out removing it just takes away a lot of depth for seemingly no reason other than that people seem to impatient to deal with it. Nut up and wait it out. Establish positional advantage, heal as Ivy, charge a charge shot or aura sphere. Make use of the time and stage your opponent gives you while they refresh.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that in Smash 4, you only lose the invincibility if you grab the ledge twice without getting hit in between. If you do get hit, you get the invincibility back.

 

[Ripple]

being on a platform and in shield should be a disadvantaged position, if shield dropping becomes easy as a push of a button that drastically shifts the positional advantage to near even or even advantage to the person on the platform.

I'm absolutely against this

 

[pooch182]

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that in Smash 4, you only lose the invincibility if you grab the ledge twice without getting hit in between. If you do get hit, you get the invincibility back.

The issue then becomes how ledge-play has developed with the current tools offered to us. Mixing in Smash 4 mechanics does us no good, as the ledge play in that game is very foreign and nothing like it has been in previous iterations of Smash.

On paper, it makes a lot of sense to take the best from each game in the series and apply it to PM. Unfortunately, that's how we ended up with these silly recoveries and absurdly free auto-combos for certain characters. Blending the mechanics too much leaves a lot of room for error and makes for a game that doesn't play air-tight by design.

 

[mechtroid]

For something so highly rewarding, such as punishing Marth's utilt on a platform with an SD nair, don't you think you should have to practice and earn that punish, rather than have it handed to you?

I have zero trouble angling my shield and I'm relatively consistent at shield dropping. Just practice.

being on a platform and in shield should be a disadvantaged position, if shield dropping becomes easy as a push of a button that drastically shifts the positional advantage to near even or even advantage to the person on the platform.

I'm absolutely against this

Seriously? Like, if it was easier to do something that's already possible in the game it would somehow make the game better?
Do you also think Smash 4 pros should play the 3DS version instead of the Wii U one because it's more difficult to bair without losing momentum when you don't have a c-stick?

Is it more "rewarding" to play G&W with tap jump on because you have to practice up+Bing without losing your double jump? Does that practice somehow make you a better player?

I don't get this logic, and I sincerely hope PMBR doesn't get it either.

EDIT: rawr

 

[Ripple]

it's possible to mash out of grabs insanely fast if youre frame perfect. I suggest that we just hold down the button that inputs things frame perfectly.

after all, its already possible in the game. as if pushing the buttons is more rewarding some how?

 

[Paradoxium]

People say level of difficulty is meaningless in the higher levels of play, but I completely disagree.

Basically my opinions are, the harder to execute, the higher chance you will screw up. And this game is all about capitalizing on mistakes.

Das all I'm gonna say

 

[Sorry:(]

being on a platform and in shield should be a disadvantaged position, if shield dropping becomes easy as a push of a button that drastically shifts the positional advantage to near even or even advantage to the person on the platform.

I'm absolutely against this

Typically being in a shield is a disadvantage because of block stun. So depending on how soon you can shield drop, this might not be as advantageous as we might predict.

Arbitrary difficulty is lame.

 

[pooch182]

Arbitrary difficulty is lame.

Git gud, kyd.

 

[Boiko]

Seriously? Like, if it was easier to do something that's already possible in the game it would somehow make the game better?
Do you also think Smash 4 pros should play the 3DS version instead of the Wii U one because it's more difficult to bair without losing momentum when you don't have a c-stick?

Is it more "rewarding" to play G&W with tap jump on because you have to practice up+Bing without losing your double jump? Does that practice somehow make you a better player?

I don't get this logic, and I sincerely hope PMBR doesn't get it either.

EDIT: rawr

You're missing the point and citing two ludicrously easy options as a comparison.
Shield dropping safely removes you from a disadvantageous position and allows you to counter with an aerial immediately OOS. Unless it is baited, it is an extremely safe option, period. Should this safe, powerful tool be shamefully easy to do? A more realistic comparison is waveshine OOS>upsmash. It's not at all easy to do, but when you practice it, you'll be rewarded.

The safest, and often best options, that simultaneously defend and punish, should not be easy to do without practice.

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Seriously? Like, if it was easier to do something that's already possible in the game it would somehow make the game better?
Do you also think Smash 4 pros should play the 3DS version instead of the Wii U one because it's more difficult to bair without losing momentum when you don't have a c-stick?

Is it more "rewarding" to play G&W with tap jump on because you have to practice up+Bing without losing your double jump? Does that practice somehow make you a better player?

I don't get this logic, and I sincerely hope PMBR doesn't get it either.

EDIT: rawr

I agree. The game should be difficult due to gameplay, not because I can't get the controls to do what I want. This is one of the reasons that I want a dedicated short hop button, even though people are going to flame the hell out of me for saying that.

 

[Boiko]

That IS gameplay.

 

[pooch182]

I agree. The game should be difficult due to gameplay, not because I can't get the controls to do what I want. This is one of the reasons that I want a dedicated short hop button, even though people are going to flame the hell out of me for saying that.

Giving players an easy way to execute highly technical inputs does nothing but undermine the hours upon hours of hard work and dedication it took great players to master those ATs. So much of what this game is about is capitalizing on the mistakes of your opponent. Making mistakes less and less prevalent allows for terrible players to possibly get away with undeserved upsets.

Don't ask for an easy way up the bracket. Either learn to play the game, or stay a brackey-filling scrub the rest of your life. I mean, if you are so lazy that you want a ****ing dedicated short hop button, there's no hope for you in the top 8. Short hopping isn't even a difficult technique to consistently execute, even with frame 3 JS characters. Put the time in to learn instead of making PMDT put the time in to make you feel like a competent player.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Easing the skill requirements doesn't help you get up the bracket at all lololol
It doesn't matter how easy or hard the technical requirements are, the players with better fundamentals, spacing, mental games, etc are still going to win

 

[ThePlacidPlatypus]

Giving players an easy way to execute highly technical inputs does nothing but undermine the hours upon hours of hard work and dedication it took great players to master those ATs. So much of what this game is about is capitalizing on the mistakes of your opponent. Making mistakes less and less prevalent allows for terrible players to possibly get away with undeserved upsets.

Don't ask for an easy way up the bracket. Either learn to play the game, or stay a brackey-filling scrub the rest of your life. I mean, if you are so lazy that you want a ****ing dedicated short hop button, there's no hope for you in the top 8. Short hopping isn't even a difficult technique to consistently execute, even with frame 3 JS characters. Put the time in to learn instead of making PMDT put the time in to make you feel like a competent player.

Smash Bros is all about simplistic inputs, especially compared to other fighting games. I can short hop 9/10 times when I want to, but it's be nice to not have to deal with that occasional miss. The line between jump and short jump is very thin. Besides, just having a short jump button won't make the game super easy. It's not the ease of performing a technique that makes you good, it's how you utilize the technique. I'm not sure why you have to be so aggressive over it.

 

[Boiko]

Yeah, that's still EZ mode and should be frowned upon. That's why it's so fascinating to see players with amazing tech skill.

 

[MLGF]

Are we really getting to the point that we need a short hop button?
OK, 1 frame extra for inputs and making entirely taking away any point of the skill floor are totally different. Please god no.

 

[Sorry:(]

Making shield dropping easier makes sense though because in smash 64 is was really easy. To the point that you do it every chance you get. Being able to switch out spot dodge for shield drop on the control stick makes sense. Shield dropping was never meant to be hard.

 

[Boiko]

Yeah, it's still not hard. You just need more practice.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

My only issue with shield dropping difficulty is that the input window is small enough for individual controller variance to be significant. I agree that it isn't too hard if you put in the lab work, though.

 

[Leafeon]

The problem with this lies in many characters having poor mixups from the ledge. Sometimes, it's necessary to use a few regrabs of ledge to safely return to stage. Does this make getting back any more dumbed down and easy? Not really. It's still up to the player to make use of the refresh, and they still need to make the smart decision that the opponent doesn't properly cover.

Removing refresh would inevitably lead to several more SDs caused by missed ledge dashes. People need to make every frame of that invincibility count, and ledge dashing is a relatively precise execution that trades the reward of a (sometimes) invincible means of counter-attacking someone guarding the ledge at the cost of losing a stock or being completely vulnerable if the player doesn't properly execute or is to slow to input. Forcing even more of a reaction time so that they get one chance at an invincible ledge dash out of many possible stressful situations just doesn't allow for reasonably optimized play at the ledge.

Not to mention, when you bring doubles into play, ledge invincibility is HUGE. Not only does it let a player avoid getting bullied in a two on one while their teammate respawns, it also allows a teammate to occupy ledge safely in an attempt to let their partner recover to the ledge. There's a lot of application for the refresh, so just flat out removing it just takes away a lot of depth for seemingly no reason other than that people seem to impatient to deal with it. Nut up and wait it out. Establish positional advantage, heal as Ivy, charge a charge shot or aura sphere. Make use of the time and stage your opponent gives you while they refresh.

Soooo... For characters that don't have anything that can be charged and saved up, heals, or does anything of those sorts, what do they do when they're behind a stock and the opponent m2 wants to tp ledge grab for the next 5 minutes?

 

[trash?]

I'm a bit confused that shield dropping was the first mention of arbitrary tech, because its placement and purpose makes total sense. any other alternative option to have it in would either limit or annoy, it's a situational tech that needs to be done in such a way where you can't really accidentally do it. that's a logical tool.

there's a lot of contradictions there, though. it's easy to do and quit whining, but also high tech is important at a top level and it needs to have that difficulty???

 

[Rhubarbo]

I agree. The game should be difficult due to gameplay, not because I can't get the controls to do what I want. This is one of the reasons that I want a dedicated short hop button, even though people are going to flame the hell out of me for saying that.

Are you hitting x/y with the pad of your thumb? I keep my thumb between a/x and hit both of those buttons with different parts of my thumb.

 

[SunJester]

I'm bored. Spoilered for those who care.

Spoiler

Recovery Changes

General Changes - No wall clings.

Wario - Fine

Mario - Less vertical distance off his down B, less able to stall and "hop" with his cape.

Luigi - Less vertical distance off his down B

Peach - Melee LOL.

Bowser - Fine

Yoshi - I haven't seen anyone play this character yet.

DK - Fine

Diddy - Side B goes into special fall, Rocket barrels go about 2/3 as far, and they don't explode with those random barrels.

Falcon - Fine

Wolf - Fine

Fox - Fine

Falco - Fine

Ice Climbers - I haven't seen anyone play this character. Their recovery should match Melee.

Zelda - I'm not sure how to change her recovery, I don't think its terribly OP right now, but if she was to receive a nerf, it should just be a weight reduction.

Sheik - Fine

Link - One Bomb jump, the tether changes do the rest

Tink - Same as Link

Ganondorf - Fine

Mewtwo - It's recovery options are quite integral to it's playstyle, I think Melee had it right when they made it really light, I think that would be a great way to balance it's recovery.

Lucario - No wall clings.

Pikachu - Incredible recovery, but Melee.

Puff - Fine, she's light enough.

Squirtle - Fine

Ivysaur - Tether changes are fine

Charizard - I like that he loses his jumps when gliding, but he should also lose his glide when using his jumps (If that already isn't a thing)

Samus - Tether nerfs will help, but the rest of it? Good luck PMDT.

Zero Suit - Can't Up-B after Down-B, though Down-B obviously wouldn't go into special fall.

Lucas - Already explained, I think they're justified.

Ness - Fine

Pit - Loses one double jump, and glide uses up one of his jumps (though he can only glide once)

Kirby - Is light already, if his recovery further presents a problem, being made lighter can help

Meta Knight - Same as Kirby

Dedede - Waddle dashing is insane. I don't even know what they'd do with this character.

Ike - Fine

Marth - Fine

Roy - Fine

Olimar - As far as I know his Up-B doesn't see a lot of use on stage. I think he should get a new form of recovery, possibly something similar to the Mario Bros where he footstools off of a Pikmin.

ROB - His recovery is used a lot on stage, I'm not sure how they'd balance that out.

G+W - Fine.

Snake - Can only Down-B "explode jump" (not sure of the name) once

Sonic - Good luck PMDT


Some General Changes I'd like to See

General Changes - No D-throw chaingrabs

Diddy - One Banana, up throw doesn't kill, DI'able f-air.

Mewtwo - Aside from the weight reduction, no floating out of teleport, up throw doesn't kill, and less range on his tail moves.

Mario - Fireballs come out way slower, so that Mario players have to be thoughtful about them when using them. Also a D-throw change.

Zelda and Shiek - Are split and both have their own Down-B's. I wouldn't mind seeing Zelda have a redesign of Din's Fire.

Link - Either more thoughtful use of his boomerang, or make the boomerang do like 4% damage.

Fox - PAL upsmash

Falco - lasers lose hitstun (act more like Fox's laser) after a certain distance. I have no clue how long the distance should be but I don't think Falco should be allowed to run away and spam lasers, I think its much more interesting for him if he is forced to always be close to his opponent.

Puff - She needs buffs, this is a wild idea but I think if she healed 15-20% off each rest, allowing her to go for them a bit more on characters without fear of dying, and if she could wake up much faster on a successful hit so she wouldn't get punished for landing the move. It might just be that I think rest is the most hype thing about Puff, and this could be a terrible idea. That being said, she really needs something extra in this game.

Ivysaur - razor leaf is a single hit move, and that janky Up-B hit box is made to be a lot smaller.

Samus - that Z-air is insane.

Lucas - I don't know enough about the character but I feel like he shouldn't have kill throws.

Ness - I'm torn between keeping PK Fire activating on shields, and PK fire not activating on shields.

Pit - I feel like the recovery changes I suggested will prevent him from carrying people all the way to the blast zone, and a D-throw change would really help too.

Sonic - Good luck PMDT.




Also I'd like to see at least one new character for 3.5. Maybe a new (or updated) couple of stages.

I'm aware my changes could be stupid and short-sighted, but they're things I'd like to see.

 

[Boiko]

I'm a bit confused that shield dropping was the first mention of arbitrary tech, because its placement and purpose makes total sense. any other alternative option to have it in would either limit or annoy, it's a situational tech that needs to be done in such a way where you can't really accidentally do it. that's a logical tool.

there's a lot of contradictions there, though. it's easy to do and quit whining, but also high tech is important at a top level and it needs to have that difficulty???

It's a high level technique that becomes easier when you put in the lab work. I'm sure Marthmaster1997 and other no name scrubs can shield drop 100 percent of the time because they decided to practice it. It shouldn't just be free to do though.

 

[Paradoxium]

Shielding on a platform is even less safe in this game because you are able to footstool them out of it.

 

[Leafeon]

It's a high level technique that becomes easier when you put in the lab work. I'm sure Marthmaster1997 and other no name scrubs can shield drop 100 percent of the time because they decided to practice it. It shouldn't just be free to do though.

Indeed. Not to mention that if they made it as simple as clicking a button, it would be easier to predict someone doing it because everyone's doing it all the time...