3.5 Update speculation thread: Please ground your expectations to contain HYPE

[mechtroid]

(Wasn't sure if the social thread was for Project M players to talk about anything Project M, anything Smash, or anything in general, so I made this for just discussion/speculation/suggestions about the new update)

I really hope there's some sort of indicator when a player grabs a ledge while still vulnerable, like a colored flash, a ! over the character's head or a different ledge-grab sound or something. I've done modding for games myself, so I know this request is likely to be WAY more complex to do than one would think, but I feel it'd add a lot to the experience for spectators, announcers, and newer players alike without even lowering the skill ceiling. Because to punish, you'll have to start before the indicator appears anyways, so the all-important "skill" of counting to five is still there. (Yes, I've already had someone complain that counting ledgegrabs is an important skill.)
Project M has already added new features just to improve the tournament spectator experience (like a banned stage indicator) and I hope this trend continues.


Further speculation/discussion:

Should wavelanding right back onto the ledge (also called Haxjumping, I think) refresh your grab's invulnerability? I've heard people guess both ways, but I feel if they do, you'll have the same problem of stalling just with a more difficult technique. It really boils down to whether you think stalling is currently too safe when done correctly, or just too easy to do in general. (And there's no point to using a poll for this, the more interesting part isn't whether you think yes or no, it's your reasoning behind it.)

 

[DrinkingFood]

I really hope there's some sort of indicator when a player grabs a ledge while still vulnerable, like a colored flash, a ! over the character's head or a different ledge-grab sound or something.

This is actually a really good idea

 

[CORY]

well, if you grab the ledge and are invulnerable, you get a faint white overlay (i think this is fairly universal for anything with invincibility?). so, if you grab the ledge and don't get the overlay, you know you're vulnerable.

 

[TreK]

Yeah I'm of the opinion that visual/audio feedback is an important thing as well. The reason I even considered playing PM in the first place is that I saw the flash when you L cancel and thought to myself 'these guys actually get it".

As far as my wishlist goes, after Zenith I remembered that in Brawl WFC, there was a 60 seconds timer when selecting characters and stages.
I figured, if the code is there, I'd really like having the option to turn it on in the menu for offline vs mode. As a TO and stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

i hope we can shield drop with C down while blocking on a platform since we can already rolldodge and jump out of shield with the other directions, and we already have two inputs for sidetsep too

 

[Narpas_sword]

^ and give melee elitists something else to ***** about in the 'pm is too easy' pile?

I don't think c stick should be more than what it is. else we'll be getting into the territory of 'why cant one of our jump buttons be SH' and 'why cant our spare shield button wavedash'

OP should also contain a list of confirmed changes (aside from costumes)

 

[Phan7om]

I dont know what Umbreon was implying, but im assuming he meant that C down doesnt make you auto sheild drop, it should have the same if not more sensitivity, but buffered just like rolling, spotdodge, etc. But idk, this isnt really necessary.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Ah, that does make sense

 

[Deleted member]

no, i legitimately want a shield drop option. theres absolutely no reason to keep shield drop as finnicky and controller-specific as it is now, especially since the "easy" way from melee doesnt work.

i dont care if the melee players *****, theyre making us play with 3 stock. dedicated melee players arent playing PM anyway.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I really hope there's some sort of indicator when a player grabs a ledge while still vulnerable, like a colored flash, a ! over the character's head or a different ledge-grab sound or something. I've done modding for games myself, so I know this request is likely to be WAY more complex to do than one would think, but I feel it'd add a lot to the experience for spectators, announcers, and newer players alike without even lowering the skill ceiling. Because to punish, you'll have to start before the indicator appears anyways, so the all-important "skill" of counting to five is still there. (Yes, I've already had someone complain that counting ledgegrabs is an important skill.)

PM players are so lazy lol. If you aren't putting forth the effort to know when your opponent is vulnerable then that's your fault. The easier PM is made, the less skill is incorporated. It's no wonder the melee community pokes fun at PM when suggestions like yours are presented.

 

[Phyvo]

Proper visual and audio feedback is a huge part of game design. There are way better ways to introduce difficulty than making it hard to see what is going on. But this is a fan mod so the standards are different than if it was its own game with no history.

 

[kaizo13]

sorry but PM doesn't need to be made any easier. there's already an invincibility indicator, and shield dropping is already easier than it is in Melee

 

[Celestis]

Soon we will have people wanting the characters to recover by themselves to using the best available options..

 

[pooch182]

In reference to the initial question about Haxdashing being able to refresh invincibility: it more than likely will. You have to land on the ground in order to Haxdash, so, in theory, you'll always reset your ledge grab limit. Not to mention, consistently Haxdashing with full invincibility is difficult, and people won't try to stall out with it. You should be rewarded for having solid tech skill, so it should always refresh, in my opinion.

As for my predictions, I'd like to see some changes to Ivysaur's bair and Metaknight's nair and bair. Having a disjointed Sheik fair is absurd, and in a game where recoveries aren't as free as they are now, then Ivy will become ridiculous at the ledge. Metaknight is all the same, except he's a better character overall, so him having this advantage at the ledge would be absurd. I can definitely see people picking up Kirby, DeDeDe, and all the multi-jump characters that can just go out there and take the stock.

 

[CyberZixx]

PM players are so lazy lol.

Says the Diddy player.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Says the Diddy player.

I don't know if you even watch players, but we incorporate more tech then most characters with the constant AGT, GT, consistent WD'ing, and peanut tricks. Most characters you don't even need to do anything besides L cancel to be good LOOOOL. Lazy? I think not.

 

[CyberZixx]

I don't know if you even watch players, but we incorporate more tech then most characters with the constant AGT, GT, consistent WD'ing, and peanut tricks. Most characters you don't even need to do anything besides L cancel to be good LOOOOL. Lazy? I think not.

There is more to the game than tech skill. Just because Diddy take tech don't mean he don't roll over a lot of characters. I'm just saying if you care about a challenge so much, why not play pikachu? Is technical but far harder to succeed with.

 

[~Dad~]

I don't like Diddy, but man I do love Diddy salt.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I can still taste Squeak's tears.

 

[pooch182]

When I think game design, I totally think of a character that has a phenomenal ground game, a kill throw, a killing aerial, and the ability to attack THROUGH a shield, while having a projectile that forces a trip in hand to pressure the opponent for free.

Diddy is ****ing hilarious.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

In reference to the initial question about Haxdashing being able to refresh invincibility: it more than likely will. You have to land on the ground in order to Haxdash, so, in theory, you'll always reset your ledge grab limit. Not to mention, consistently Haxdashing with full invincibility is difficult, and people won't try to stall out with it. You should be rewarded for having solid tech skill, so it should always refresh, in my opinion.

I wouldn't be so sure that's an unchangable mechanical fact. I don't think Roy/Marth regain their side-b stall when haxdashing, for example.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Ganon has a hover

M2's tail is shortened and he can no longer hover out of teleport

Lucas's pk freeze will no longer combo into anything unless it is at point blank range, and his upthrow sucks

All tethers have a super laggy get up animation

Knuckles is a playable character

Fox regains the M2k angle on his up B and his short hop matches his melee short hop

Zelda is completely redesigned

Ness's pk fire no longer activates on shield

 

[victinivcreate1]

It would be nice (this is my opinion) if 3.5 had these things

Random DI on X level CPU. When they're not in hitstun, they do their fastest ground/aerial option.
Permanent shields held up. Practice shield pressure.
X character spamming their projectiles. Powershield practice.
*Huge Dream* Some HUD on the top right telling you how close to frame perfect you are when comboing/doing shield pressure. IMO, it'd be nice if say I shine grab, but i miss the grab, and the little hud at the top right told me how many frames I was off by my shine grab

Also
Nerf Lucas. Down throw should not be a free autocombo, bair sourspot should suck, weaken up throw, OU Up Smash decreased vertical range (should not be hitting top of Yoshi's Story platform), down air is laggier and each kick is a bit slower, make his PSI Magnet negative on shield, remove DACUS or shorten it significantly, increase traction, his grab laggy, and dash grab needs less active frames.
Nerf Sonic so he moves fast but his attacks are slow, and make Down B less free. Down B should be unsafe on shield.
Mewtwo should have no more Hover out of TP, ledgegrab range shortened, double jump slightly shortened, tail decreased, but you can Teleport through Platforms
Diddy Kong's banana should dissapear on shield, and he should not have a kill throw. Also 1 banana, instead of two.
Ness' PK Fire doesn't activate on shield
Mario is reverted to 2.5
Squirtle's Withdraw is less free
Pit has less hitstun on arrows and down air, decrease the effectiveness of his CG
Ivy's dtilt and up tilt need lag. Dair has one stall use. Nerf recovery.
Link's Boomerang is made less autocombo'y

 

[Rᴏb]

I hope the ability to reverse ledge grab becomes a character specific trait. I don't like how everyone can do it.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I hope the ability to reverse ledge grab becomes a character specific trait. I don't like how everyone can do it.

This was possible in Melee too ya know.

 

[Rᴏb]

This was possible in Melee too ya know.

Not everyone could iirc
I think only characters who spun around during their upb could.

 

[victinivcreate1]

In reference to the initial question about Haxdashing being able to refresh invincibility: it more than likely will. You have to land on the ground in order to Haxdash, so, in theory, you'll always reset your ledge grab limit. Not to mention, consistently Haxdashing with full invincibility is difficult, and people won't try to stall out with it. You should be rewarded for having solid tech skill, so it should always refresh, in my opinion.

As for my predictions, I'd like to see some changes to Ivysaur's bair and Metaknight's nair and bair. Having a disjointed Sheik fair is absurd, and in a game where recoveries aren't as free as they are now, then Ivy will become ridiculous at the ledge. Metaknight is all the same, except he's a better character overall, so him having this advantage at the ledge would be absurd. I can definitely see people picking up Kirby, DeDeDe, and all the multi-jump characters that can just go out there and take the stock.

MK is not broken. MK gets beat by the jank 6+Mario+Falco+ a few others.

 

[pooch182]

I never stated he was . . . but giving him the same tools he has now to deal with people off stage in 3.5 would be a horrible idea. You have to play smart at the ledge against MK as it stands right now, so with every character losing options, he'd just be dumb to deal with.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I never stated he was . . . but giving him the same tools he has now to deal with people off stage in 3.5 would be a horrible idea. You have to play smart at the ledge against MK as it stands right now, so with every character losing options, he'd just be dumb to deal with.

MK's edgeguarding is about as good as any small character with multiple jumps.

MK does not have a Sheik fair equivalent in any part of his moveset. His neutral air is not insanely strong to begin with, and considering its main use is as an approach move, it'll be stale. His back air is slow. His forward air is weak. His dair is suicidal and his up air is not a kill move.

 

[pooch182]

Sheik fair with disjoint is in reference to Ivy's bair.

MK is great for edge guarding because he can throw out DJ transcendent moves that always win, and he comes back for free. The only multi jump character better than him at ledge guarding/playing offstage is DDD, and he's not really as well equipped on stage and in the neutral as MK.

 

[Exodo]

"make Lucas be able to cancel attacks the way Lucario does cause he aint broken at all" (obvious sarcasm)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The thrown was cold, while you were away, meta knight.

 

[shairn]

The thrown was cold, while you were away, meta knight.

That could have been a nice post but you threw it all away

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That could have been a nice post but you threw it all away

You're not even nice

 

[Seagull Joe]

There is more to the game than tech skill. Just because Diddy take tech don't mean he don't roll over a lot of characters. I'm just saying if you care about a challenge so much, why not play pikachu? Is technical but far harder to succeed with.

Why would I want to make it harder to win by using a worse character? Just because someone uses a high tier doesn't mean it takes any less amount of work to win. I used a MT in brawl. It still took 's just as much brains/tech to beat me as it took to use my character.

 

[CyberZixx]

Why would I want to make it harder to win by using a worse character? Just because someone uses a high tier doesn't mean it takes any less amount of work to win.

How can those two sentences back to back? The first sounds like you agree using a worse character makes things harder only to say right after it does not.

Take melee for instance. What is more impressive, a fox or yoshi winning a tournament? Clearly the yoshi who lacks the tools to do the things that fox does and hard to worker harder for same result.

It sounds like you are implying all character take an equal amount of effort to win with. I don't see how you can possibly think that. Do you think someone using Diddy and Pika of the same skill have the same odds of winning a tournament?

 

[0RLY]

Wario gains a way to deal with disjoints. Something. Anything. pls.

 

[pooch182]

Sword Wario confirmed!

 

[Deleted member]

Soon we will have people wanting the characters to recover by themselves to using the best available options..

i dont know how you slippery sloped so hard from shield drop to recoveries, but theoretically having an easy shield drop option (like every other shield input) should allow better players another means to differentiate themselves via player ability.

 

[Paradoxium]

MK is not broken. MK gets beat by the jank 6+Mario+Falco+ a few others.

Bro, Falco is free af against meta knight. All you have to do is land a grab (Which is easy as hell for meta knight) and then back throw.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

PM gets released in Europe.