3.5 Update speculation thread: Please ground your expectations to contain HYPE

[Time/SpaceMage]

Because you don't read my posts enough
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53t9fDzdCyw

Thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind. You could be nicer about it, though.

 

[SpiderMad]

Thanks for that, I'll keep it in mind. You could be nicer about it, though.

It's probly the truth. How many of my posts do you read per day? And the videos too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gBDctEu8Hg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzoxJ9jy-6g&list=UUC_duOivBOekU6LS3_8w25A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nYWNayYVLo&list=UUC_duOivBOekU6LS3_8w25A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAMoJ8ZpvjE&list=UUC_duOivBOekU6LS3_8w25A
Did you know there's over at least 30 things you can do in PM you couldn't in Melee with the Melee veterans concerning Early/Double Aerials due to a couple different jump height mechanics differing from Melee?
http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-02.339825/page-1033#post-17829718
And there's an Illuminati triangle in Shield stun
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2098/melluminati.png

 

[Taytertot]

curious to know the estimate as to when 3.5 will be out.

 

[Narpas_sword]

curious to know the estimate as to when 3.5 will be out.

The only estimate we're ever likely to get is:

'not long after it's ready'

 

[The Coach]

Do we have any idea what some of the possible changes to Olimar will be?

 

[Phan7om]

curious to know the estimate as to when 3.5 will be out.

Jan 2015
Nope

 

[robosteven]

Olimar is fine as he is.

I'm only bringing this up because this **** makes my blood boil.

In this state, Olimar is one of the most flawed characters in the game. His grab has amazing range, he can follow up on up/down-throw into juggles leading to combos that guaranteed land you like 30% on your opponent because his damage output is almost Ganon-tier, and he can keep you in the air for days. On top of that, his recovery (when it works lol) is amazing. You can't punish his tether like any of the others because it has hitboxes on it. His f-smash is bad, but if that gets fixed he's amazing. His juggle game is godlike, his damage output is amazing, his grab and combo game are really easy, and he's got a ton of kill moves.

He's got big problems though. The very fact that his up-b relies on the number of Pikmin on you is jank as hell. Sometimes they don't even listen, the actual point in which the tether snaps to the ledge is deceiving, and sometimes you need to waste time calling your brain-damaged Pikmin to you in order to ensure their recovery. Aside from the Climbers, every other character in the game only needs to rely on thinking about how to recover, not if your recovery is even going to work at all. Plus, he's the only character in the game who gets punished harder than others for losing a stock. When he was introduced in the 3.0 announcement video, emphasis was placed on flowered Pikmin doing more damage and KB as leaf and bud Pikmin. Frankly, that ****'s dumb. Olimar already suffers from needing to waste his invincibility plucking Pikmin immediately after respawn, and if all of your Pikmin were flowered you have to wait what feels like an eternity to get them to their full potential and start doing some real damage.

Here's the thing I don't get though: If PM is supposed to be this fast-paced game like Melee, why is there a character that can only attain his full ability by camping for half a minute? The strength increase would be fine if it weren't so drastic. Leaf Pikmin are garbage, bud Pikmin are fine, flower Pikmin are stupid good. Either buff leaf Pikmin and nerf flower Pikmin or just have all Pikmin stages be the same but get a health increase (like they have now). The fact that he needs to use his invincibility at the beginning to pluck Pikmin isn't a big deal, it's the 30 second waiting that is.

oh I forgot to mention his grab

• He can't perfectly space his pivot grab, at any percent it's an instant grab-release.
• His Pikmin take the invincibility on grab instead of him, so you can't trade hits with a grab, the hit will win. Pretty sure he's the only character with this problem.
• Sometimes people can escape mid-throw, kinda like Melee Kirby's f-throw and b-throw.

Olimar would be fantastic if his bugs were fixed, the flower system was adjusted, and if his up-b was changed. Aside from his f-smash, he doesn't need any buffs. He needs fixes. The tether isn't bad, but it's not good design as it is now.

also please make Pikmin Pluck mashable again there's no reason for it not to be

Anyway, my point is, no. No, Olimar is not fine. Olimar is a poorly designed character for this game and he deserves better.

 

[DrinkingFood]

RNG is bull****. Sakurai at least realized that- fixed pluck order is great.

 

[42rockjock]

Ganon has a hover

M2's tail is shortened and he can no longer hover out of teleport

Lucas's pk freeze will no longer combo into anything unless it is at point blank range, and his upthrow sucks

All tethers have a super laggy get up animation

Knuckles is a playable character

Fox regains the M2k angle on his up B and his short hop matches his melee short hop

Zelda is completely redesigned

Ness's pk fire no longer activates on shield

please tell me you're joking about knuckles being a playable character

 

[Roxas215]

please tell me you're joking about knuckles being a playable character

I thought Knuckles being in was common knowledge at this point.

 

[Blank Mauser]

It doesn't exactly mean we'll see him any time soon though.

 

[Roxas215]

It doesn't exactly mean we'll see him any time soon though.

This is true

 

[robosteven]

RNG is bull****. Sakurai at least realized that- fixed pluck order is great.

Removal of RNG and removal of Pikmin getting stronger over time was a smart decision (although I prefer how flower Pikmin look) and I really hope the PMDT follows suit.

 

[MLGF]

Pikmin getting stronger over time is great, it puts a great deal of thought into Olimar I don't think people have seen utilized yet.

 

[Taytertot]

Jan 2015

I'm very excited to see what changes have been made when its done.
It's amazing how much work has been put into this especially in the hopes to continue to balance the characters more and more. Great job PMBR!

 

[robosteven]

Pikmin getting stronger over time is great, it puts a great deal of thought into Olimar I don't think people have seen utilized yet.

It's a gimmick that requires you to camp until your Pikmin reach their full potential in order to actually do real damage. It's a nice idea, but it doesn't belong in this game.

 

[Taytertot]

It's a gimmick that requires you to camp until your Pikmin reach their full potential in order to actually do real damage. It's a nice idea, but it doesn't belong in this game.

I disagree. I don't think it suggests that you should save your pikmin by being really careful so that they can be the most powerful, I think it's more about knowing how to use the pikmin so that the ones you want to power up are going to be alive while not worrying too much about others. The pikmin don't need to have full health and in fact I think it's not a bad idea to have a few pikmin in different rotations of the blooming process because the pikmin that have been out the longest are bound to die sooner while you can keep some more fresh and have them bloom around the time that the first ones die off. If an olimar is only remaining campy to try to get their pikmin powerful enough then they aren't using olimar's full potential because then you playing into the idea this idea that "my character is weak, I need to not take any risks until I've got enough power." That mentality is exactly what an opponent wants. Not only are you not having much confidence in your character, but your also playing into a predictable format of, camp til pikmin have flowers, then you can start going in. So the only thing the opponent needs to do is put on a lot of pressure and you'll probably lose your stock before your pikmin flower.

I'd image it'd be better to decide based on the MU which pikmin are more or less throw away pikmin and which one's you want to keep around. the one's you want to keep you use only for safer attacks (i.e. olimar's quicker attacks generally) while putting on pressure with pikmin toss for the pikmin that are less useful in the MU. I think that flowing between campy and close range would be best. Idk if the pikmin being used is vulnerable during all of olimar's moves, but I doubt that an opponent would be able to kill a pikmin during the use of that pikmin in all of olimar's attacks. Generally my point is that you can use pikmin in a non-campy way while still letting them power up and that it isn't a completely useless gimmick.

 

[robosteven]

If an olimar is only remaining campy to try to get their pikmin powerful enough then they aren't using olimar's full potential because then you playing into the idea this idea that "my character is weak, I need to not take any risks until I've got enough power." That mentality is exactly what an opponent wants. Not only are you not having much confidence in your character, but your also playing into a predictable format of, camp til pikmin have flowers, then you can start going in. So the only thing the opponent needs to do is put on a lot of pressure and you'll probably lose your stock before your pikmin flower.

My point wasn't that it's not possible or a good idea to use Pikmin that haven't fully bloomed yet, it's that the character really benefits way too heavily from playing the waiting game. He's still useable with the bloom system, but it's a stupid system nonetheless. Leaf Pikmin aren't terrible, but the fact that bud and flower Pikmin are so much better makes them worthless for anything other than racking up damage. When I lose a stock and my opponent is at 130% damage, I want to land a move to kill them as soon as I respawn. However, I ****ing can't because leaf Pikmin (unless they're purple) probably won't kill at that percent. It's possible to do some crazy things with any stage Pikmin, but it doesn't matter when the later stages trump all of the other ones. Frankly, I'd much rather see combos and strategy revolve around color as opposed to bloom stage. Pikmin health only becomes relevant when thinking of Pikmin Throw, which is the most Brawl-influenced element of his moveset right now. There's nothing inherently wrong with camping, but when your method of camping is directly tied to your ability to rack up damage as well as your recovery, then there's little reason to ever camp.

In regards to the matchup-specific thing, using elemental-specific Pikmin for certain characters only really applies to yellows, and when it does it doesn't completely tip the matchup in Oli's favor. It certainly helps to distract characters like Pikachu and Lucas, but it doesn't completely change the matchup, which is fine.

I just want to see Oli gameplay become more about utilizing his moveset and less about being punished for not having full power.

I must be in the minority, but I think the bloom system is really stupid and doesn't belong in the game.

 

[Taytertot]

I see your point but I still like the idea of the bloom system. Though maybe itd be best to have it altered so that it isnt such a crutch to have to wait for them to bloom. I got really into brawl before I started playing PM and it seemed really dumb that the pikmin bloomed over time but it had no effect on the pikmin whatsoever. From that its awesome to me that PM decided to do something with that, but maybe if it effected the max health that each pikmin had instead of damage and knockback? Or at least that the difference in knockback from leaf to flower wasnt as big a leap? Or maybe that the hitboxes become slightly larger as they bloom? Im not sure but it seems silly to not use the blooming thing at all.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Something I really like from the 20XX pack that would be really nice as an option in debug mode is a red flash on missed L-cancel.

 

[Boiko]

Something I really like from the 20XX pack that would be really nice as an option in debug mode is a red flash on missed L-cancel.

You flash white when you hit an L-Cancel.

 

[robosteven]

I see your point but I still like the idea of the bloom system. Though maybe itd be best to have it altered so that it isnt such a crutch to have to wait for them to bloom. I got really into brawl before I started playing PM and it seemed really dumb that the pikmin bloomed over time but it had no effect on the pikmin whatsoever. From that its awesome to me that PM decided to do something with that, but maybe if it effected the max health that each pikmin had instead of damage and knockback? Or at least that the difference in knockback from leaf to flower wasnt as big a leap? Or maybe that the hitboxes become slightly larger as they bloom? Im not sure but it seems silly to not use the blooming thing at all.

I don't know if you've ever played Street Fighter III 3rd Strike, but there's this character called Q. One of his main things is that if you manage to taunt three times in one match it gives him the most health and resistance to stun in the game. Olimar is kinda like that at this point. I like Q, but I'd like him so much more if his game revolved less around his taunt mechanic and more around his defensive moveset.

Olimar is kinda like that to me. I don't hate the bloom mechanic, but I think the change from leaf to flower is too drastic and is, as you said, kind of a crutch.

I dunno man, I just want Oli to be balanced.

 

[MM3K]

Something I really like from the 20XX pack that would be really nice as an option in debug mode is a red flash on missed L-cancel.

I don't think that's as necessary given the white flash of a hit l-cancel, though it would be nifty tool for someone seeking to improve.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Buff all Pikmin stages and implement the flying Pikmin.. problem solved.. the bloom mechanic is so unique, plus he's still way better than SSB4 Olimar

 

[Boiko]

I like the uniqueness of the bloom system and I think that leaf Pikmin are far from unusable, but I certainly understand the frustration of Olimar mains who lose all of their flower Pikmin after dying and then have to use their invincibility to get their attacks.

 

[Cubelarooso]

someone seeking to improve.

Aren't we all?
Oh, also an infinite shield mode would be nice.
A (better) way to practice powershields and ledge-techs would be cool, too, but those seem significantly harder.

 

[Taytertot]

I don't know if you've ever played Street Fighter III 3rd Strike, but there's this character called Q. One of his main things is that if you manage to taunt three times in one match it gives him the most health and resistance to stun in the game. Olimar is kinda like that at this point. I like Q, but I'd like him so much more if his game revolved less around his taunt mechanic and more around his defensive moveset.

Olimar is kinda like that to me. I don't hate the bloom mechanic, but I think the change from leaf to flower is too drastic and is, as you said, kind of a crutch.

I dunno man, I just want Oli to be balanced.

I understand. Olimar does seem like he probably sits in the low tier area unfortunately. He's got good things but they dont work together enough thus far. If the PMBR buffs his punish game a bit more either with more combos that can net a stock (regardless of bloom level) or give him a safer way to put out pressure so that pikmin will naturally bloom so that the bloom is just a nice little buff instead of a huge part of his game that would be ideal. Olimar already seems like more of a defensive character, which is completely fine, but he needs to be able to put out defensive pressure a bit better if that's going to be his game. Look at ivysaur for example, he's got quite a solid keep out game, but olimar needs more of that so that the bloom isnt a crutch its just a bonus to surviving a long time. So maybe itd be better to buff his attacks to work with his defensive game and nerf the effects of blooming?

 

[robosteven]

plus he's still way better than SSB4 Olimar

and PM Zelda is way better that Melee Zelda. That's not really much of an argument.

 

[Binary Clone]

and PM Zelda is way better that Melee Zelda. That's not really much of an argument.

Agreed. It's just not really relevant how much better (or worse, for that matter) a character is in a different game. Ganon was way worse in Melee, but he's still low-tier in PM, no matter how much he improved. Same deal. What matters is the game he's in and the surrounding characters that are also better.

I think Olimar primarily needs to function properly. If his upB flat out doesn't work randomly, I think that's the first fix. Other than that, I don't know enough about the character to say, but I don't really like the bloom mechanic as it is.

Remember Lucario's rage thing and rage in Sm4sh? It's not the same thing, but it's along similar lines, in some ways. Your momentum can be stolen in the blink of an eye, and there's a mechanical roadblock preventing you from getting it back. Maybe that's not intrinsically a bad thing, but it's worth looking at.

 

[Boiko]

I don't think Olimar needs to be changed much at all aside from the following:
-Broken(as in doesn't work) tether. More often than not it fails to cling to the ledge.
-Broken pivot grab
-Bloom function
-Forced to use invincibility to get moves

Maybe some more, like a slight buff on his fsmash in exchange for a nerf on his godlike dsmash. From what it seems, there is literally no reason to use fsmash over dsmash. Maybe just find a balance of power there.

Outside of that, he has a great usmash, juggle game, fair, bair, grab, and throw combos. Along with arguably the best (when it's working) tether in the game, as it has a hitbox. He has a hard time dealing with projectiles, and pressure it seems though. robosteven can correct me.

 

[BJN39]

Zelda is removed.


Sheik transforms into Shiek. Transform is now a free short intangibility move.


Edit : Oh yeah, and give sheik or ZSS a Wii fit Trainer alt.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Still hoping for the Random DI CPU and the frame perfect OoS like in Melee 20XX. Me lieks practicing multishines and feeling good about myself lol

 

[Taytertot]

Zelda is removed.


Sheik transforms into Shiek. Transform is now a free short intangibility move.

Are you stating a fact of what's going to be in 3.5 or is that your preference?

 

[jtm94]

My hype is here. I believe.

Olimar should be fine, he has weird stuff now but will be normalized I hope. I hear good things.

 

[Bron]

Kill Mewtwo and Make Diddy even stronger lol

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Pikmin getting stronger over time is great, it puts a great deal of thought into Olimar I don't think people have seen utilized yet.

To bad they die and get smackt away while Olimar is getting beasted on. Why do his Pikmin even get hit like that...? If the PMBR wants to keep that a thing, the pikmin killer should have more lag on w/e they used to kill the pikmin or maybe they could adjust how pikmin act when Olimar is hit or have the pikmin just idk PMBRPLZFIX

 

[jtm94]

The correct answer is to make Pikmin not fall off of Olimar when he gets hit. That's like Mario's cape getting knocked out of him, or Ike dropping his sword so he can't UpB. The Pikmin should definitely still die, but they shouldn't have the extremes they do now where if he does get flowered you can't KO him and you die, or if he can't get them he can't KO you and you die.

 

[robosteven]

remember that one time I was like "you can't perfectly space pivot grab with Olimar because it causes instant grab release"?

yeah remove the pivot part, it happens with regular grabs too

pmdt pls

 

[Problem2]

We definitely don't want to do something extreme to Olimar. We're trying to pull back on the extreme silliness and suggested changes such as giving an attacker extra hitlag for attacking a pikmin can lead to some pretty janky jank.

PMDT's first focus should be to see what they can do to prevent the Pikmin de-synchs. The strength difference between the stages of the Pikmin should also be leveled out. The budding increasing their power is a cool system, but it's just a little polarizing. Make the flower Pikmin a little weaker and make the leaf Pikmin stronger.

 

[PlateProp]

Ganon was way worse in Melee, but he's still low-tier in PM, no matter how much he improved.

This is a horrible uninformed conclusion

Ganon is a ****ing beast in PM