[12/10] Marth's Upward Killers: Why aren't you using Marth's utilt... and dsmash?

[ChaosKnight]

marths dolphin slash can kill upwards too haha

 

[Shaya]

marths dolphin slash can kill upwards too haha

Oh Lordy.

It's not something you aim for though. I think in general though it will kill at the 150-160% range fresh if you do the vertical hit.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I think DI is a factor in DS also.

 

[VietGeek]

I think DI is a factor in DS also.

Yes, but not in its base trajectory. If you hit with the arc that's below Marth's feet, the DS will send them vertically regardless of DI.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Yes, but not in its base trajectory. If you hit with the arc that's below Marth's feet, the DS will send them vertically regardless of DI.

I still think there are better options than DS for a vertical kill.

 

[Shaya]

It's called dsmash.

 

[Darxmarth23]

It's called dsmash.

Ja i know. Also DB up, u-tilt, u-air, and u-smash.

I think u-air is a bit special, b/c of its **** combo ability when fast falled.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Marth's utilt in front of him has a weird hitbox. If you touch them with the blue flash (which resembles the hitbox of his sword) at the tip and a bit inwards, it won't hurt them at all. I first saw it when practicing on a sandbag and the tip of the blue flash went right through it. Then I practiced on a Mario in training mode, it wasn't as noticeable but it still went through him.

 

[Alterhalo]

Nair to uptilt anyone else try this but me?

 

[The_Prince]

the first db to an untippered utilt is pretty cool too

 

[Inle~Orichas]

One fun thing with Hyphen-Smash to do is constantly attempt Forward-Throw Chaingrabs and mix it up with Forward-Throw to F-air to bait air dodges and jumps. Then kill with the U-smash out of a Forward-Throw. Kind of risky, but without twists and turns to throw off an opponent, that enemy can get a little too comfortable with your strategy.

Also, a problem with using D-smash as a vertical kill is that the hit needs to have the opponent on the (or hovering over) the ground which limits the chances of a kill with an area with a high ceiling. D-smash is much more reliable as a quick strike that clears adjacent opponents and should be fresh when necessary (which won't be the case if you continuously attempt D-smashes). I find most of my upward kills come from U-smashes, because of the unexpected hitboxes which provide a fairly long range attack coming out of a run. The occasional U-tilt is fine too, less range and difficult to do with tap jump on.

Upward kills are quite fun to use in a battle, an unexpected change of plan, considering most of the time you'll be using your f-air and d-tilt to keep your opponent at a comfortable distance away. With small horizontal priority, you'll probably be surprising your opponent with this abrupt change in tactics.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Good thread, I did not realize this until recently also, when I started using tilts more, and i noticed that utilt is very strong (although it doesnt have sound effects or animations that make it look powerful, therefore making people mixconcept it). But for dsmash, i don't use too much, because there's a little too much lag at the end for me to like .

 

[magikguy]

yeah i'll only use downsmash out of shield . I get punished alot for that move >_>

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Dsmash has costed me the match like seven times now, I never use unless I'm absolutely sure that it'll hit.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Also, the first hit for D-smash comes in at 6 frames... Pretty quick compared to F-smash or Up-smash.

 

[t3h n00b]

Is there a good range to start DB in to tip (or at least hit) the 4th strike upwards? I almost always do the first 3 hits forward, which is probably a bad habit, then choose a direction for the 4th based on the situation, but I normally end up missing the 4th hit upwards, unless there's a platform there or a really bad roll dodge.

 

[ShortFuse]

dSmash takes a lot of time to learn to master. I've been using dSmash heavily since Melee days. It's a great anti-roll technique. Also if you're standing close enough to the opponent, both swings hit. Great for mindgames.

Also, consider the way dSmash works. It starts downwards and in front. It's fastest dSmash attack you can pull if your opponent is in front of you. Faster than fSmash. Think about it. fSmash starts above and behind and arcs to in-front and below. But you really need to get used to it since it's a very unorthodox move. Getting comfortable with things like this can really strike fear in your opponent. Landing hits with unorthodox moves or styles tends is a very effective mindgame. I bet many of you didn't know dAir hits horizontally faster than fAir (which makes it a better panic move than fAir, but not as good as nAir)

It is a risky move though. I heavily use it with shieldstun and at the edge. Since it's faster than fSmash, at the edge I'll fAir into dSmash. If he blocks it, the shieldstun will lag him and he'll be pushed to grab the edge. Little risk. I also use it for when you think somebody is going to roll when they're at the edge. If they shield, they'll get pushed off the edge. If they roll, the second swing hits them. If they attack, it'll clash. If they don't shield, well, then the attack lands.

As for upSmash, I won't say much. It has horizontal hitboxes. It's not as much as in Melee, but it's still there. Use it at edges since it can gimp.

As for the Dancing Blade's final Up Swing, if you haven't been using that to kill MetaKnight, what's wrong with you? :-P
You have to learn dancing blade timing. You have to know the hitboxes. Know when to end in up,down or forward B. You might have to slow down your swings to allow you opponent to (foolishing) start DI'ing into a tipper. If they DI horizontally away, try to time the Up. Use down if you think they're getting away. ForwardB is usually harder to land with tip and I can't really remember when I use it. Learn the timing, the up swing's tip is a great kill move (even more in Brawl+ with no stale move negation)

 

[Pierce7d]

Is there a good range to start DB in to tip (or at least hit) the 4th strike upwards? I almost always do the first 3 hits forward, which is probably a bad habit, then choose a direction for the 4th based on the situation, but I normally end up missing the 4th hit upwards, unless there's a platform there or a really bad roll dodge.

If you want to finish Upwards, just do the whole combo upwards. Forward, Forward, Up, Up, is the way to go.

Dsmash has costed me the match like seven times now, I never use unless I'm absolutely sure that it'll hit.

Smart man.

Also, good to see you again Shortfuse. It's been a while.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I heavily use it with shieldstun and at the edge. Since it's faster than fSmash, at the edge I'll fAir into dSmash. If he blocks it, the shieldstun will lag him and he'll be pushed to grab the edge. Little risk. I also use it for when you think somebody is going to roll when they're at the edge. If they shield, they'll get pushed off the edge. If they roll, the second swing hits them. If they attack, it'll clash. If they don't shield, well, then the attack lands.

ITS A TRAP!

Very interesting, didn't think that D-smash could be so effective in such a commonplace situation. I'll be sure to add this irritating tactic to my gameplay.

 

[The_Prince]

dsmash also has a lot of shield stun also though. if it hits a shield, it would be hard to punish (plus it can swipe under the shield, an extra bonus).

 

[Lethargied]

I acutually love using U-Tilt to finish, but probably on last stock only cause it catches them by surprise from my typical Fair or Fsmash finishing.

And personally I spam Dsmash a lot to punish people who think that they can get in Marth's face and attack.

 

[t3h n00b]

I like using dsmash against people who expect fsmash and drop their shield after it hits in front of Marth (I'm talking about when my opponent is behind me).

 

[Lethargied]

Also, I don't know if I am entirely correct. On the D-smash, after the first swing, even when he does the second swing, there is a tiny little hitbox behind him.

So even if you miss with the initial swing of the Dsmash you can't fully walk up to Marth and attack him?

I beat my friend once who thought it was safe to walk up to me after I wiffed the first swing on that but he actually got launched horizontally a lot to his death. Sorry if someone already said this too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Also, I don't know if I am entirely correct. On the D-smash, after the first swing, even when he does the second swing, there is a tiny little hitbox behind him.

So even if you miss with the initial swing of the Dsmash you can't fully walk up to Marth and attack him?

I beat my friend once who thought it was safe to walk up to me after I wiffed the first swing on that but he actually got launched horizontally a lot to his death. Sorry if someone already said this too. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, sicne the second swing starts from where the first swing ends, your friend probably ran into that hitbox.

[Edit] Don't quote me o nthis yet, it's almsot midnight and I have to see the Dsmash animation again.

 

[OmegaXF]

Very nice...

 

[ZHMT]

Anytime (that's necessary) someone hits your shield at kill percent, trying to dsmash them is always a good option. The more your learn about OTHER characters movesets and when there is ending lag in their moves, dsmash becomes so so useful. 6 frame hitbox in the front, it goes under very weak shields, and after your shield is hit with some moves (Falco's dsmash is an example) it literally throws you into tipped range. Tipped dsmash is amazing, people really underestimate it.

 

[clowsui]

As Marth you probably should have pressured quite a bit of their shield away so shielddrop dsmash is going to just wreck them at higher percents. It should be noted that the DSmash is basically the epitome of Marth's moveset style: hits early, pretty good against shields, unorthodox in some senses, hurts badly with a tipper, but if whiffed is really dumb for Marth.

@ZMT: Falcos typically use DSmash as a mixup for a roll reaction, so it's not likely that you'll ever get DSmash v. Shield
I forget why we don't use DSmash that much even though it hits for more than FSmash in most cases >_>; I need to go look for that but in general you're not going to find yourself in that position, just thought you'd like to know XD

 

[Pierce7d]

I use shielddrop dsmash as a punisher frequently.

Also, Falco's Dsmash has no range. Jab is a safer option. Dsmash is situational (the opponent is open and right on top of you, lulz)

 

[Shaya]

Marth during both swings has a hitbox just behind him. And yes, as I described in the original post, the hitboxes at the feet send horizontally at a far more power than an untippered fsmash.

In a general match, vertical kill moves start killing at 6000mph, while horizontal kill moves you're looking at 6800+. Marth's tipper dsmash reaches that 6000 mark around the same time the tipper fsmash reaches it's mark (and the horizontal requisite can go a lot higher...); and untippered dsmash absoloutely destroys normal fsmash in "pure power" (and lol its easier to kill upwards too? WHATS UP WITH THAT? I LOVE IT).

 

[ZHMT]

Ok, I was just using Falco's dsmash as an example, but yeah...

They hit you, dsmash them, exc... /obvious

I think we should make a chart for kill percents of dsmash.

 

[Shaya]

Tippered:

Mario - 98%
Fox - liek 73%
Jiggly - 79%
Bowser - 129%

Something along those lines. LOLFOX.

(I could be OVERLY sarcastic about Fox, purely for the hell of it, but maybe not)

 

[ZHMT]

Ok, so we can 'safely' say 130% on Snake, DK, Bowser, D3, exc...Imma start using dsmash more then fsmash rofl

 

[phi1ny3]

I've found dsmash to be really good in doubles, because the chances of hitting with it practically double.

 

[t3h n00b]

Lol can't argue with that logic. Counter is fun too, unless there's team attack on of course.

And on topic, I sometimes find it useful to charge dsmash at about tipper range and wait for someone to roll behind, or if they sit there holding their shield in fear, it usually pokes.

 

[BBoyindo]

Lol can't argue with that logic. Counter is fun too, unless there's team attack on of course.

And on topic, I sometimes find it useful to charge dsmash at about tipper range and wait for someone to roll behind, or if they sit there holding their shield in fear, it usually pokes.

You should watch out with that though, they can simply roll away and punish you.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

"Imagines the possibilities if Marth's D-smash had IASA frames like MK's..."

Unfortunately that fantasy will never come true, so I'd just like to mention as awesome as D-smash is, try to use it as often as you would use shield breaker and Up-B K.O.s. The move is incredible, but don't spam it hoping for the opponent to fall for it nearly every time.

EDIT: To be more clear, its best to keep this move fresh so it kills, the same way you would keep Up-B Fresh.

What I meant was that the after lag on D-smash is annoying, especially if your opponent begins punishing during the start of the 2nd attack. (But you all already knew that.)

 

[Pierce7d]

wtf, you should use Shield Breaker and UpB a lot, lmao.

Dsmash is a good punisher though. I don't really use it as a roll-predicter anymore. It's safer to just run back and pivot Dancing Blade.

 

[Marsu]

Nice Thread!

 

[magikguy]

It is a nice thread. Pierce wouldn't shield breaker be punished if your using it a lot.

 

[ZHMT]

Shieldbreaker isnt really punishable if its used correctly and at tip range.