Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

[frest123]

Don't forget everyone who needed nerfs
*cough*Rosalina*cough*

I don't think she needed a nerf. She's pretty balanced. Her character is just a lot stronger for Singles. She's hella bad in Free for All thanks to Luma easily getting killed.

 

[Trifroze]

It really Irks me that people are taking this out of Proportion. I mean, this coming from someone who has been waiting for a buff for about every patch now. Bayo gets a nerf, okay, it's not like she was wrecked, she still has a bunch of good tools that make her payable, at least your character HAS a bunch of good tools.

And on top of it, there are people actually trying to start up and make it seem like Bayo was balanced and nobody was putting in the effort to play against her. I'm literally seeing people say "UGH, THE SMASH COMMUNITY IS ALWAYS COMPLAINING INSTEAD OF GETTING GOOD, NOW LOOK, BAYONETTA GOT NERFED!"
I will say, some of these nerf are little over, but please stop making it seem like she's worse than Jigglypuff just because you're forced to put slightly more effort into pulling a win.

At the same time though, they can say that you haven't experienced the feeling of being settled with a very capable character, putting in work to it and essentially investing all your time to it having your hopes up for the future, only to have it taken away from you by reducing the capability of that character as well as considerably changing their feel.

Hence this is not a good argument to disregard their frustration, and it is not a good argument to disregard your frustration either; there are reasons for both. A better argument to Bayonetta mains would be that they should've expected this, and a better argument for you would be that you shouldn't rely on patches to give you a viable character if you really want one.

 

[CaptainJiggz]

At the same time though, they can say that you haven't experienced the feeling of being settled with a very capable character, putting in work to it and essentially investing all your time to it having your hopes up for the future, only to have it taken away from you by reducing the capability of that character as well as considerably changing their feel.

Hence this is not a good argument to disregard their frustration, and it is not a good argument to disregard your frustration either; there are reasons for both. A better argument to Bayonetta mains would be that they should've expected this, and a better argument for you would be that you shouldn't rely on patches to give you a viable character if you really want one.

Actually, I play Bayo, she was my ballot vote so I'm kinda attached to her. I wasn't implying that Jigglypuff can't be played without receiving a buff, I feel like for what she's given, Jigglypuff is at a good place, although a buff wouldn't hurt. I was simply saying that the people flipping about the nerfs should tone it down. I don't plan on dropping Bayo for the nerfs, even if it means having to learn her character all over again, but We don't even have Bayo in our hands yet without modding. We should wait until we're given the chance to see how she is before we make calls.

 

[Ulk]

Basically, this is our question.

Is Diddy good without Hoo Hah?
Is Sheik good without 50/50?
Is Bayonetta good without combos?

I think the problem is rather that Bayonetta has received big consequences for the combo potential she had, unlike other combo fighters.

She does not just suffer from the typical disadvantages like a lack of kill power, but also from very unorthodox disadvantages for combo fighters, like bad frame data, bad grab game (grab itself + throw game), bad approach game, systems like a counter staling and increased ending lag for the amount of moves she performs in the air. (Not taking into account her bad dodge game, since that is probably rather the consequence for Bat Within, which hasn't been nerfed.).

Those disadvantages did not manage to balance out her extreme combo potential in 1.1.5, which is why she was so unbelievably powerful despite that. But now we may be talking about a combo game that has been made unviable, while her disadvantages are not just still resting on her back, but have also been partly increased. We're not talking about just her 0-to-death combos being taken away, like other extremely good combos of combo fighters. We're talking about almost every one of her combo moves taking a massive hit each.

The combo potential is definitely still there, it just seems like it may be near useless now. But if we are at the point where her combo potential loses to that of other combo fighters who suffer from so many less downsides for their combo potential, which may now be much more viable than Bayonetta's, we could actually be at a point where Bayonetta is a naturally bad fighter, simply for having less to offer than other combo fighters but still bringing more consequences/disadvantages to the table.

 

[Bowserboy3]

We don't even have Bayo in our hands yet without modding. We should wait until we're given the chance to see how she is before we make calls.

This is very true. We can't just assume things straight up. We need to actually play her first before we can confirm how good she actually is.

 

[Meru.]

She won't become Zelda but she is not a very good character anymore.

Depends on your definition of very good. Top 5? Probably not. Lower than top 20, or even top 15? HIGHLY doubt it.

They can't combo and they don't do much damage.

Uair can't combo? I beg to differ. Nair is mainly a spacing tool, Bair is a good killing move. All of her aerials have super little lag.. Nair hits from 9-17 and 18-25 with the FAF being on frame 33. Only 7 frames of lag!! Uair has only 11 frames of lag, Bair only 16. All of them have low landing, super good range, Nair and Uair can be extended to stay out forever... If you can't see why these move are very good I really don't know that to say.

It has below average startup and the range was nerfed.

It's frame 7 lol that's very decent. Range has been nerfed but a 3.5 -> 2.8 change is not gonna kill you since the hitbox was huge, and only two frames of ending lag are not gonna kill her either. Reward on the move is very high: it reliable combos at lower percent and is a kill confirm into Uair at higher ones.

It is still very slow and not safe.

but has massive range (which could sometimes let Bayo go unpunished provided it was spaced well, stays out forever and has good reward since it's a combo starter.

That force you to take 50% damage and her dodge are the laggiest in the game. Bat Within can backfire and frametrap her too.

True, but they allow her to espace very tight combos other characters can't. She can, for example, escape Zelda's Dthrow > Uair easier than almost any other character. And while they can backfire and frametrap her, they also allow her to immediately counterattack, depending on the situation. Bat Within may have its downsides, but it's definitely a strong tool, saving Bayo's booty more than once.

ABK is not a very fast move and force her to have moderate landing lag. It doesn't keep her safe from enemies below her.

It's frame 8. What did you expect it to be, frame 0? Seriously you know there's a problem with a character when people say a frame 8 move "is not very fast". Moderate landing lag lol, she lands on the other side of the stage with only 20 frames of lag, good luck punishing that. For reference, Rosalina has 30 frames of landing lag when she lands with her UpB, Peach has 40 frames of landing lag, Mario has 30. How you can call Bayo's landing lag on DownABK 'moderate' is beyond me. "It doesn't keep her safe rom enemies below her" it would be nice if a move fast that lands on the other of the stage with little lag has at least a bit of a weakness.

Like, 10 to 15%

MASSIVE exaggeration. UpB > SideB already does more than that. Now add a starter to that and a few more hits after it (which she will get, even if you escape her combos she can often get another hit with her everlasting Nair) and you easily go 20% of every hit, plus it leaves her at advantaged state.

Low priority and her FSmash is weaker than Mario's FSmash!!! Not to mention the high startup and endlag!

It has great range. Start-up isn't anything unusual for a smash, Clouds Fsmash is frame 19 too. It should be unsafe, that's why I said it's supposed to be used for hard reads.

At 150%+.

Which is still decent considering it's an Fthrow, which are a lot easier to get than Bthrows since those have be used in a pivot grab.

What is she gonna do when she Witch Time you? Combos? Fully charged Smashes?
This is not to mention Witch Time decays massively after just one use and doesn't cancel lingering hitboxes.

...Are you messing around with me? I'm sorry but it's hard to think you're actually being serious when you literally say: "What is she gonna do when Witch Times you? Fully Charged Smashes?". Poor Bayo, only getting fully charged smashes out of a frame 5 counter that has intangibility frames and only 20 frames of ending lag during which she also moves back. Poor poor Bayo, having the best counter and one of the most scary and possibly one of the best moves in the game, on a char that is not even designed to be very defensive.

Sure, she doesn't have to be top tier. But can she at least be able to combo better than this???

We don't know her combos yet, we only know her combos cant kill anymore because you can escape them before it but it's unlikely they have been removed to the extent people have been claiming (doing 10% lol yeah sure).

Sorry if I am super negative, but this is really insane.

Funny how this guy only shows Down ABK at lower percents and none of her other moves. Yes, down ABK is not a good combo move anymore at lower percents (nothing has been shown about high percents though), deal with it. (It's still a good move to use in disadvantage state anyway, it's not like it has become useless). She still has a billion other combo tools, nothing has been shown of her UpB combos yet.

 

[frest123]

I'm surprised they didn't touched Witch Time.

But yeah, it's labbing time for Bayo mains once the patch is out, I'm sure she still have tricks.

Though should be more fun (to put it that way) to battle against her.

You raised a valid point. Let's not forget she still can do disgusting things with Witch Time. Maybe all her combos were reworked to still work as they did before when WT is activated? One thing she can surely still do is Witch Time recoveries and kill them with DSmash or DAir. I think Bayo is far from being unviable. The nerfs were appropriate considering they didn't nerf the framedata of Witch Twist or the damage all her moves do. Her hitbox sizes were obnoxious af and they were definitely the main problem I had with her. This patch is already looking brilliant tbh.

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

The one thing that worries me a bit is the SDI multiplayer on Witch Twist. I firmly believe that if you land a multi-hit correctly, it should fully connect despite the SDI (like Zelda's f-smash, Peach's counter, or some of Pikachu's aerials). I hope that you can't completely SDI out of Witch Twist because then it'd be risky in high level play (this was a big issue in Melee and Brawl with multi-hit moves and SDI'ing out of them).

Does the initial hit of witch twist still the insane knockback? I was SDIing witch twist before and I always died at like 40 because of it 8)

I assume it will still have insane knockback at the beginning because of how they made some multi-hits work. Remember Mii Brawler's Piston Punch (aka The One Inch Punch)? There's also Peach's Parasol with ridiculously high knockback on the first hit. Roy even had this issue but I'm not sure if it was patched.

Bottom line is that Witch Twist will probably have that crazy knockback on the initial hit.

Basically, this is our question.

Is Diddy good without Hoo Hah?
Is Sheik good without 50/50?
Is Bayonetta good without combos?

To answer these questions: Yes, yes, and maybe not. Bayonetta as a character heavily relies on combos in order to be good, but when you take that out, what do you have left? Not a whole lot, I'll tell you that much. She has some tools, but they're not that good.

You should also reconsider on how you phrased those questions in comparison to each other. Diddy's Hoo Hah and Sheik's 50/50 are just single components of the character while Bayonetta's combos are what fundamentally makes her work as a character. Diddy and Sheik can do well because they still have a plethora of other tools at their disposal and don't rely one thing (hoo hah, 50/50), where as Bayonetta heavily relies on one thing, combos. I don't think those comparisons are really fair now, are they?

In the end, let's just wait to see how she turns out when the patch officially releases.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Whatever anyone says about Bayonetta, one Witch Time near the ledge when you have around 30% damage on you, and you are dead (Back Throw Dsmash Spike. Bye).

 

[JosePollo]

Upper Hitbox:

• KBG: 100 -> 97
• WKB: 160 -> 140
• Hitbox Y Position: 24 -> 21

Wait how is this the upper hitbox at Y=21 when the other hitbox is at Y=28? Isn't this the lower hitbox?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Man I can't imagine how those Bayonetta players feel knowing their character might only be top 20 instead of top 3.

 

[Oatha]

At the same time though, they can say that you haven't experienced the feeling of being settled with a very capable character, putting in work to it and essentially investing all your time to it having your hopes up for the future, only to have it taken away from you by reducing the capability of that character as well as considerably changing their feel.

Hence this is not a good argument to disregard their frustration, and it is not a good argument to disregard your frustration either; there are reasons for both. A better argument to Bayonetta mains would be that they should've expected this, and a better argument for you would be that you shouldn't rely on patches to give you a viable character if you really want one.

While I don't agree with the severity of the nerfs, most agreed that she needed the stick and I'm confident that the people who will be hurt the most are those who picked her up for the 02Ds.
Anyone who's playing the character for Bayonetta will find a way around this, how many people will continue playing her remains to be seen.

 

[AfroGamerNinja]

Good job people,,, I am going back to play casual again after this patch. The developers balance team proved that cared about social media outrage rather than push the crybabies to get good at the game... Pretty sad that my favorite character got destroyed because of witch hunts.

One patch to destroy one character... Is this what new players enjoy today... Cripple the gameplay of a character because of mob mentality on the internet.

Whatever rocks your boat.

DABK got destroyed, a command input special, which other character kill with one backthrow(unavoidable) like Ness.

Witch twist nerfed because people can not SDI properly so let's destroy the move by not combo anymore with more knockback and raise the SDI multiplier for even slowpokes get away with it.

Dtilt add frame because it started combos, which resulted in a fair, let's remove them...

Reduce hitbox, reduce damage...

I should ask my money back because this character is now broken...

Then again, I don't remember Sakurai saying that Smash was meant to be a competitive fighting game.

 

[JonJon]

Can anyone explain the huge file size differences for the 3ds and wii u?

 

[Yikarur]

Mario was hit by a Dive Kick at 0%. 0. And that's with no DI.

What about "higher %" did you not understand?

Dive Kick.

not.

It was never likely to airdodge the move. In theory, at low %, it is minor buff, and a rather major nerf at higher %.

it still happened. And I still don't think it's a nerf at higher%. We will see.

Yoshi dair doesn't need to combo and has very little hitlag. The SDI multiplier is a very very big change.

it's not! Yoshis dair does 3 to 1,5 damage per hit with an SDI Multiplier of 2.
Bayonettas upB does 0,2 damage per hit. This means Bayonetta does the absolute minimum amount of hitlag a move can do. I don't think it will kill the combos because it would be rather stupid.

Dive Kick doesn't combo into anything. One of Ulk's video showed Mario airdodge a second Dive Kick.
Plus, let's say it does combo into ABK at high%, then what? ABK had a KBG increase, so you won't follow up with anything.

if dive kick combos at higher % you will hit with the latest abk hitbox which does almost no knockback and can combo into upair or witch twist.
We only know the knockback and angle at 0%, at higher % the move could operate diferently. We have to wait until we can test it ourselves.

 

[Ulk]

Can anyone explain the huge file size differences for the 3ds and wii u?

I think that's because the 3DS needs to overwrite all past updates with every new update.

 

[the_muffin]

Can anyone explain the huge file size differences for the 3ds and wii u?

The massive size difference is because the 3DS version needed the have all the previous patches rolled together into one to apply the new one, while the Wii U version only has to download the changed files.

 

[Big-Cat]

Can anyone explain the huge file size differences for the 3ds and wii u?

We have no clue yet.

 

[Aife]

Witch twist nerfed because people can not SDI properly so let's destroy the move by not combo anymore with more knockback and raise the SDI multiplier for even slowpokes get away with it.

You know, honest question, what if the change to witch twist was specifically for the people that could not escape it? theres still 5ish characters that were unable even after ESAM released his video. That might be the target of the nerf. *shrug*

just a guess.

Don't really have an opinion on the nerfs otherwise, not qualified to give it. But if her controversy dies down then it'd probably be a nesscary evil anyway. Hopefully they didn't crush her abilities outright and she can fight.

 

[Solutionme]

Sorry for making them sound worse than they are but you have to agree that they've definitely made some questionable choices in the past (nerfing Dedede's air speed for example)

To be fair only the first few patches they ever did were questionable. The rest after that were actually logical and didn't make me want to leave this game entirely. Really the only questionable thing they've done lately was ganon's nair being reworked like 5 times when that move isn't his weakness.

 

[Fenriraga]

Oh snap, I totally forgot about Witch Time. Ah well. Again, she's still going to be damn good, she just can't cheese a stock out of someone (combo wise) or make me have to flick my control stick around like a mad man hoping to DI.

Can anyone explain the huge file size differences for the 3ds and wii u?

As far as we can tell, the only changes to the patch is the Bayonetta madness and a couple directory changes or something. The latter of which means absolutely nothing.

So either we are missing something or it really took that many MB to nerf her.

 

[UberMadman]

People keep overlooking that in the Wii U version, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Palutena's temple got some changes, and Pokemon Stadium 2 got model changes, (likely to background Pokemon,) which could EASILY account for the rest of the file size because augmenting models consumes more data than augmenting some raw number values.

As for the 3DS version, no clue.

 

[Aife]

To be fair only the first few patches they ever did were questionable. The rest after that were actually logical and didn't make me want to leave this game entirely. Really the only questionable thing they've done lately was ganon's nair being reworked like 5 times when that move isn't his weakness.

Sakurai has stated before that they can only do patches so long as he can keep the team together. I'd imagine that this makes processes somewhat rushed (people have to work on other projects so we need to get this done), and might be why there are nerfs here and there that don't make as much sense as they should.

It also likely got more logical as time progressed because he realized he could keep them together longer or something, but thats pure speculation at this point.

 

[Byzantium97]

I'm curious as to whether or not this patch is going to be the last balance adjustment we'll ever see for Smash 4. Nintendo obviously only released this patch because they got tired of people complaining about Bayonetta being OP and it wasn't actually meant to be a balance patch but I wonder if they'll give some buffs to the low tiers like Shulk, Palutena, Ganon and Jiggs in the future. I can only hope...

 

[Nekoo]

It this the salt thread?

Anyway. I'm pretty sure that it's the same situation as the cloud patch. Aka incomplete data.
Why announcing a patch without a date if it will be already ready two day after?

Sorry but I dont buy it. Even if I have little to no hope left

 

[Hero_2_All]

Really Bayonetta needed a nerf. The Bayo mains agreed, the community agreed, and now that it's here there is allot of salt. Now lets get down to why Bayo needed to be nerfed imho. The reason was not not necessarily due to how players played Bayonetta, but on how she forced a certain type of counter play vs her. Really Bayo made it so you must play passively vs her, this was no matter the character you were playing. By contrast the way say Corrin fights sheik, and falcon fights sheik is very different ( I'll use characters ik how to play for the example). By Bayonetta's very nature the smallest mistake or over extension would result in heavy dmg, and sometimes the stock. Because of this it was very scary to ever try to challenge a bayonetta, or to attempt to juggle / combo her. Trying to juggle bayonetta would often result in a witch time or being comboed. The only time you could actually go aggressive on Bayo is if you were certain on her lag, and your ability to true combo her. You even have to be afraid to challenge her recovery. Because if you fail to challenge the recovery you will be often be comboed and take heavy dmg ( and challenging bayo recover pre patch was... lets say hard, even if you had disjoints). The aforementioned facts pretty much forced all characters to counter play vs bayo in a super duper passive manner. Healthy counter play on the other hand should be using your character's advantages over another to come out on top. Yet, even if your character's strength's did not lean towards passive play, you still had to play passively vs Bayo . This is the base reason why Bayo needed to be nerfed. She forced one type of play vs her on pretty much all characters, and it was neither fun to play against, nor fun to watch (Though if you played this way vs her beating bayo was not too hard).

 

[randomguy1235]

Good job people,,, I am going back to play casual again after this patch. The developers balance team proved that cared about social media outrage rather than push the crybabies to get good at the game... Pretty sad that my favorite character got destroyed because of witch hunts.

One patch to destroy one character... Is this what new players enjoy today... Cripple the gameplay of a character because of mob mentality on the internet.

Whatever rocks your boat.

DABK got destroyed, a command input special, which other character kill with one backthrow(unavoidable) like Ness.

Witch twist nerfed because people can not SDI properly so let's destroy the move by not combo anymore with more knockback and raise the SDI multiplier for even slowpokes get away with it.

Dtilt add frame because it started combos, which resulted in a fair, let's remove them...

Reduce hitbox, reduce damage...

I should ask my money back because this character is now broken...

Oh poor you, you can't use a broken character anymore to win tounies . Stay mad kid.

 

[LancerStaff]

The one thing that worries me a bit is the SDI multiplayer on Witch Twist. I firmly believe that if you land a multi-hit correctly, it should fully connect despite the SDI (like Zelda's f-smash, Peach's counter, or some of Pikachu's aerials). I hope that you can't completely SDI out of Witch Twist because then it'd be risky in high level play (this was a big issue in Melee and Brawl with multi-hit moves and SDI'ing out of them).

Somebody took the patch data that's up right now and said Witch Twist 2 is braindead easy to SDI out of. Occasionally just holding a direction is enough. First Witch Twist is escapable but hard to do so in a real match.

 

[shininimuss]

Bayonetta games in general are mashy over the top ridiculous combos with a lot of tools, the games, while fun, do not have nearly as much technicality as Smash (when it comes to combos) or even other action/fighter games.

they sure as hell have a lot more technicality than smash 4.

 

[Eureka]

You know I'm not at all surprised Puff didn't get any changes. I personally think that how bad the character is in Brawl and Smash 4 was intentional because they reverted her back to her "joke character" status after Melee. Remember that the only reason they made Puff better in Melee was they had Pichu as a joke character.

On the topic of Bayo though... Wow that's a big change to dive kick. Doesn't this mean that fast fallers can DI down and away to make Bayo end the combo early? Because before the proper extender in that case was dive kick after abk, and it doesn't look like that leaves any follow ups anymore.

 

[CaptainJiggz]

You know I'm not at all surprised Puff didn't get any changes. I personally think that how bad the character is in Brawl and Smash 4 was intentional because they reverted her back to her "joke character" status after Melee. Remember that the only reason they made Puff better in Melee was they had Pichu as a joke character.

On the topic of Bayo though... Wow that's a big change to dive kick. Doesn't this mean that fast fallers can DI down and away to make Bayo end the combo early? Because before the proper extender in that case was dive kick after abk, and it doesn't look like that leaves any follow ups anymore.

The reason Jigglypuff or the other lower teirs don't get any buffs, is because Sakurai's "Vision" lives on the moral standard that, Some characters have to be bad, because if they buffed bad characters and made everyone good, the game, to him, wouldn't be fun. I guess i could Kinda understand to some extent. I could grab you the quote, but that be a little while. You can find it in one of his Interviews.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Depends on your definition of very good. Top 5? Probably not. Lower than top 20, or even top 15? HIGHLY doubt it.

I doubt she is even high tier now.

Uair can't combo? I beg to differ. Nair is mainly a spacing tool, Bair is a good killing move. All of her aerials have super little lag.. Nair hits from 9-17 and 18-25 with the FAF being on frame 33. Only 7 frames of lag!! Uair has only 11 frames of lag, Bair only 16. All of them have low landing, super good range, Nair and Uair can be extended to stay out forever... If you can't see why these move are very good I really don't know that to say.

Uair doesn't combo very reliably and the backward nature of the move makes it harder to combo.
Nair is a below average spacing tool due to her slow air speed and nair is easy to counter with a utilt, usmash, or uair. Nair is also weak too.
Bair is an okay kill move, but it doesn't kill until high % and currently she can't rack up damage very well due to her combos getting destroyed.
Nair and Uair BA are weak and her airspeed + fall speed limit their potential.

It's frame 7 lol that's very decent. Range has been nerfed but a 3.5 -> 2.8 change is not gonna kill you since the hitbox was huge, and only two frames of ending lag are not gonna kill her either. Reward on the move is very high: it reliable combos at lower percent and is a kill confirm into Uair at higher ones.

The increased endlag might kill dtilt to uair and/or dtilt to fair, not to mention her combos are weaken anyways.
The rewards on dtilt is significantly reduced and the reduced range + endlag increase makes the move less safe.

but has massive range (which could sometimes let Bayo go unpunished provided it was spaced well, stays out forever and has good reward since it's a combo starter.

The move is still slow and unsafe.

True, but they allow her to espace very tight combos other characters can't. She can, for example, escape Zelda's Dthrow > Uair easier than almost any other character. And while they can backfire and frametrap her, they also allow her to immediately counterattack, depending on the situation. Bat Within may have its downsides, but it's definitely a strong tool, saving Bayo's booty more than once.

Bat Within is only one frame faster than Mewtwo's airdodge, it isn't gonna kill 50% of the true combos.
Bat Within moves Bayonetta far away and she can't counter much moves with it due to her high startup and there is some lag after Bat Within.
Bat Within is a good tool, but it isn't game changing.

It's frame 8. What did you expect it to be, frame 0? Seriously you know there's a problem with a character when people say a frame 8 move "is not very fast". Moderate landing lag lol, she lands on the other side of the stage with only 20 frames of lag, good luck punishing that. For reference, Rosalina has 30 frames of landing lag when she lands with her UpB, Peach has 40 frames of landing lag, Mario has 30. How you can call Bayo's landing lag on DownABK 'moderate' is beyond me. "It doesn't keep her safe rom enemies below her" it would be nice if a move fast that lands on the other of the stage with little lag has at least a bit of a weakness.

Frame 8 at the closest possible hitbox. It rarely hits at frame 8, most of the time it is frame 12-20.
I didn't say it had 40 frames of endlag, but downplaying 20 frames of landing lag is pretty silly.

MASSIVE exaggeration. UpB > SideB already does more than that. Now add a starter to that and a few more hits after it (which she will get, even if you escape her combos she can often get another hit with her everlasting Nair) and you easily go 20% of every hit, plus it leaves her at advantaged state.

Her combo are now easy to escape, it is unreliable to attempt to get a combo that deals over 20% because of the landing lag will put you in a bad position. Nair is weak and easy to shield, risking a big punish for 6 or 7% is not worthwhile.

It has great range. Start-up isn't anything unusual for a smash, Clouds Fsmash is frame 19 too. It should be unsafe, that's why I said it's supposed to be used for hard reads.

Cloud's FSmash is also slow.
The put in view. Mario's FSmash comes out in frame 15, and the duration is 47. Bayonetta's, Frame 19, duration is 67. Mario's FSmash is also more powerful too.
Mario's USmash, frame 9. Bayonetta is frame 18.
Hard reads are very hard to do with a move this laggy.

Which is still decent considering it's an Fthrow, which are a lot easier to get than Bthrows since those have be used in a pivot grab.

It is a weak kill throw. Plus, she now struggles to rack up damage to 150%.

...Are you messing around with me? I'm sorry but it's hard to think you're actually being serious when you literally say: "What is she gonna do when Witch Times you? Fully Charged Smashes?". Poor Bayo, only getting fully charged smashes out of a frame 5 counter that has intangibility frames and only 20 frames of ending lag during which she also moves back. Poor poor Bayo, having the best counter and one of the most scary and possibly one of the best moves in the game, on a char that is not even designed to be very defensive.

Sure I was, but being serious, her options after Witch Time now limited to just dealing around 20%. Not to mention Witch Time can't be spammed or else the move will become useless due to the decay.

We don't know her combos yet, we only know her combos cant kill anymore because you can escape them before it but it's unlikely they have been removed to the extent people have been claiming (doing 10% lol yeah sure).

We are only gonna discover less and less potential combo. If we didn't discover anymore combo in 1.1.5, we aren't going to find more in 1.1.6.

Funny how this guy only shows Down ABK at lower percents and none of her other moves. Yes, down ABK is not a good combo move anymore at lower percents (nothing has been shown about high percents though), deal with it. (It's still a good move to use in disadvantage state anyway, it's not like it has become useless). She still has a billion other combo tools, nothing has been shown of her UpB combos yet.

A billion other combo tools? Like what?
Why would Dive Kick combo at high percent?

What about "higher %" did you not understand?

At higher %, why would the move combo? What do we even get from combing with it?
Dive Kick's angle is lower than Sheik's down throw.

not.

True, 6.5% is very useful.

it still happened. And I still don't think it's a nerf at higher%. We will see.

Why is it not a nerf at higher%? Even the SDI was doubled.

it's not! Yoshis dair does 3 to 1,5 damage per hit with an SDI Multiplier of 2.
Bayonettas upB does 0,2 damage per hit. This means Bayonetta does the absolute minimum amount of hitlag a move can do. I don't think it will kill the combos because it would be rather stupid.

There is something called hitlag modifier. Marth has a higher hitlag modifier on his tipper so getting a tipper is noticeable.
Meaning doing low damage doesn't always mean lower hitlag.
Yoshi's dair rehits every 2 frames while Bayonetta rehits every 3 frames.

if dive kick combos at higher % you will hit with the latest abk hitbox which does almost no knockback and can combo into upair or witch twist.
We only know the knockback and angle at 0%, at higher % the move could operate diferently. We have to wait until we can test it ourselves.

The knockback of late ABK is confirmed to have increased KBG, not to mention SDI can probably safe you from a Uair or Witch Twist.

 

[ReroRero]

People keep overlooking that in the Wii U version, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Palutena's temple got some changes, and Pokemon Stadium 2 got model changes, (likely to background Pokemon,) which could EASILY account for the rest of the file size because augmenting models consumes more data than augmenting some raw number values.

As for the 3DS version, no clue.

Spoiler

It means we will get a Rowliet model on the stage

 

[LancerStaff]

On the topic of Bayo though... Wow that's a big change to dive kick. Doesn't this mean that fast fallers can DI down and away to make Bayo end the combo early? Because before the proper extender in that case was dive kick after abk, and it doesn't look like that leaves any follow ups anymore.

Those that have the update already say that there's no combo potential at all off of a properly DI'd divekick, and even without any DI it's sketchy.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I see Bayonetta is truly going through what Sheik went through.

People completely going overboard with how bad she got nerfed.

Seriously, go back and read some of the comments back when Sheik got nerfed. People thinking she would be mid tier, that she would never kill before like 180%, that she would vanish off of the face of the earth in tournaments except for the super dedicated mains like Void. They were doing what people are doing now: going through and making lists of how horrible the change is and explaining how nothing works well for her anymore.

And... she's still top 3 in results.

Bayonetta is not going anywhere. Seriously, calm down. The number of people with their hands on the new version is amazingly tiny. Wait for it to be released to the public and give the lab type mains a good 3-4 weeks before you even think about trying to figure out how good or bad she is now. Because I can guaranteed you the majority of you will be wrong. Because you were wrong about Sheik and Diddy Kong before and they lost equally critical things. Sheik's 50/50 and Diddy's kill confirm were just as important as Bayonetta's extreme level of combos (Diddy's kill confirm more so really and he's possibly best in the game atm).

The month or so of labbing will decide how good Bayonetta is, not the overboard reactions in here.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

And... she's still top 3 in results.

I know she is the third most used character, but I thought she was only #5 in terms of first plave results with Rosa, Cloud, Mario, Diddy above her.

 

[zerantoss]

It is very different to change a move to get a different outcome or get better tools when you had bad tools before. This patch is a clear destruction on the characters play style. They removed 70% of her combos and got nothing in return... Not even less landing lag on her moves or reduce the start up lag on her jabs to counter her very bad neutral game.

It's like a hand or feet ambulation and ask to get good at a sport the way you were before your accident. This patch shows that Sakurai was correct when he said the game did not need any balance patches after 1.4.

The balance team are not working to balance the game properly rather than react to public outcry of casual scrubs with a social network accounts wrecking havoc because they want to win without trying.

I play Bayonetta and I will not stop playing her even after the patch, the thing is I wanted to participate at EVO next year, training real hard every day with her and now all my hard work go to waste because of internet outcry mob mentality.

I wanted to play competitively with Bayonetta, I loved her play style, her combos, she added new addition to Smash Bros. gameplay. I played Ike before her a character that was destroyed when played against Sheik, Zero Suit because of his bad physics and recovery, Bayonetta balanced that and felt great to play.

Bayonetta is slow, has terrible neutral game, a glouton for punishment against floatty grap characters but her mix up/punish game was great. Now they removed the mix up-combo game and we got a 3d model represent Bayonetta in Smash.

Because ZeRo, Spanish Inquisition and 8 people at Russia spread the poison and reel up all the scrubs that could not understand Bayonetta's match up. I am done with competitive smash. If Nintendo are prone to idiots that cry at social media because they are not good at smash then I am not going to support this mentality.

I said my piece when the Spanish people started the debate only one month after the release of Bayonetta crying to ban her because in their scene are a minority of people who do not like the character, that if this mentality of nerfs or bans prevails against hard work and practice I would stop playing smash competitively.

They won, in this day an age hard work does not pay off, next time I want something to happen I go cry on facebook and twitter or reddit maybe it is better than busting my *** training, experimenting, losing sleep with my mates playing till dawn to be better players.

I will try to get gud... At ******** on the internet.

You're probably not good at the game if you needed bayo to play at evo. If someone like you was never good enough to train with another character and play at evo, but then training with bayo could make you viable, it just shows how much the character carries players. If you still want to play at evo, just jump on the top tier train and choose and train with another S or A+ tier.

You're crying so hard without even having played the new bayo. If sol can make little mac viable, I think a million people can still make bayo viable. She's probably still A tier, if not B tier... and there are people that play tournaments with C tier characters and do great... but you're crying when Cancer like bay was nerfed to a place where she's still probably better than a lot of the cast, but you're probably not crying for buffs for the characters who are clearly not viable eh?

 

[jespoke]

I know she is the third most used character, but I thought she was only #5 in terms of first plave results with Rosa, Cloud, Mario, Diddy above her.

1st place is not really the best metric though. In both Top 8 and Top 16 she is currently #3 IIRC

 

[Quickhero]

I see Bayonetta is truly going through what Sheik went through.

People completely going overboard with how bad she got nerfed.

Seriously, go back and read some of the comments back when Sheik got nerfed. People thinking she would be mid tier, that she would never kill before like 180%, that she would vanish off of the face of the earth in tournaments except for the super dedicated mains like Void. They were doing what people are doing now: going through and making lists of how horrible the change is and explaining how nothing works well for her anymore.

And... she's still top 3 in results.

Bayonetta is not going anywhere. Seriously, calm down. The number of people with their hands on the new version is amazingly tiny. Wait for it to be released to the public and give the lab type mains a good 3-4 weeks before you even think about trying to figure out how good or bad she is now. Because I can guaranteed you the majority of you will be wrong. Because you were wrong about Sheik and Diddy Kong before and they lost equally critical things. Sheik's 50/50 and Diddy's kill confirm were just as important as Bayonetta's extreme level of combos (Diddy's kill confirm more so really and he's possibly best in the game atm).

The month or so of labbing will decide how good Bayonetta is, not the overboard reactions in here.

Bayonetta didn't even get witch time nerfed there is no way she's not ridiculous still.

I'm guaranteeing you there are just going to use methods to kill from the side instead of up and she'll still be busted anyways.

 

[SAHunterMech]

I love how we don't even need to wait for a patch to be officially out to see what's in it anymore; that's incredible. Still, was it really simple data-mining, or was it... TIME TRAVEL? Dun-Dun-Dun...