Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

My biggest concern about the Bayonetta nerfs is what is the point of dABK now? Its combo potential got completely murdered and its damage took a hit too. I'm struggling to imagine a reason to use it now.

The rest of the nerfs seem much more manageable. Possibly annoying depending on how the SDI pans out on Twist, but manageable. dABK is the only question mark in my mind.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The hitbox size nerfs are very important. People often don't realize how important the hitbox/hurtbox ratio is. In general in this game if you have high combo potential your hitboxes are precise, generally small, tactically used. They seem to have adjusted to their original philosophy on this.
They also made the combos more technically challenging to execute, which is a good thing as it will desperate the true masters from the pick up and play.
Full impact of all changes remain to be seen of course, chances are this is still a great character.

My biggest concern about the Bayonetta nerfs is what is the point of dABK now? Its combo potential got completely murdered and its damage took a hit too. I'm struggling to imagine a reason to use it now.

It will still definitely have a use in tight after the first ABK goes through them. It may still link to F-air if the character models cross up. Speculation in a bubble right now of course.

 

[Champ Gold]

My biggest concern about the Bayonetta nerfs is what is the point of dABK now? Its combo potential got completely murdered and its damage took a hit too. I'm struggling to imagine a reason to use it now.

The rest of the nerfs seem much more manageable. Possibly annoying depending on how the SDI pans out on Twist, but manageable. dABK is the only question mark in my mind.

I actually wish the dABK had a spike effect.

Yeah, the move will be dangerously unsafe on shield but atleast it'll have its use when it's used off-stage

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually wish the dABK had a spike effect.

Yeah, the move will be dangerously unsafe on shield but atleast it'll have its use when it's used off-stage

Today on "things I didn't know I wanted". It would even come with its own risk since dABK offstage puts you in an AWFUL position if you miss.

 

[Tizio Random]

My biggest concern about the Bayonetta nerfs is what is the point of dABK now? Its combo potential got completely murdered and its damage took a hit too. I'm struggling to imagine a reason to use it now.

This is a good question. I have to say that dABK now has that Bouncing Fish-y feeling but I don't know how to explain. In the video I saw it seems to have a good horizontal knockback. Maybe it can be used to KO opponents once they are near the horizontal blastzones? Dunno.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Random thought: dABK to Bullet Climax? Does that sound even remotely useful?

 

[Ulk]

This is a good question. I have to say that dABK now has that Bouncing Fish-y feeling but I don't know how to explain. In the video I saw it seems to have a good horizontal knockback. Maybe it can be used to KO opponents once they are near the horizontal blastzones? Dunno.

Would be very hard to kill with and, especially with the additionally reduced hitbox, extremely unsafe. You have to be so far off-stage to land a kill with it that missing it will almost lead to certain death. High risk, low reward. You can still combo with it though. It's just super easy to either air dodge or DI out of.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Would be very hard to kill with and, especially with the additionally reduced hitbox, extremely unsafe. You have to be so far off-stage to land a kill with it that missing it will almost lead to certain death. High risk, low reward. You can still combo with it though. It's just super easy to either air dodge or DI out of.

How would one use dABK to combo under it's new state?

 

[KayJay]

My biggest concern about the Bayonetta nerfs is what is the point of dABK now? Its combo potential got completely murdered and its damage took a hit too. I'm struggling to imagine a reason to use it now.

The rest of the nerfs seem much more manageable. Possibly annoying depending on how the SDI pans out on Twist, but manageable. dABK is the only question mark in my mind.

Landing Mixup.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Last Hit (First Use):

• KBG: 105 -> 80
• BKB: 50 -> 55
• Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
• Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19

This is clearly a buff isn't it?
First Twitch Twist combos longer.

Funny way to twist the truth. Have you forgotten this is Witch Twist we are talking about? The move that have double the SDI and have its hitbox size reduced making it hard to land and easy to escape?
It is like saying "Oh don't be sad that Luma doesn't respawn till you lose a stock now, his HP went from 50 to 100! It's a buff! isn't it?"

 

[Meru.]

Bayo is still obviously a good character, what the hell are you guys talking about. Nair, Bair and Uair are still very good aerials, Dtilt is still very good, Heel Slide still intact, frame 1 airdodge/spotdodge still exists thanks to Bat Within, escapes disadvantaged state easily thanks to After Burner Kick, combos cannot kill but she can still get good damage from them, strong smashes and ranged for hard reads, kill throw and best of all, BY FAR the best counter in the game... for real I don't understand the panic lol at worst she becomes high tier, better than "only" 75% of the cast.

It's always the same. Character gets nerfed, people will claim the character is no longer good and gonna drop to mid tier or something, a week or two later, still very clearly a solid character. It's happened so many times now, most notably with Sheik and Diddy Kong, I doubt this'll be very different. In any case, let's see with an open mind how the changes will affect the character in practice before drawing any hard conclusions.

A character doesn't have to be top tier to be a fine character, you know.

This x100000

Last Hit (First Use):

• KBG: 105 -> 80
• BKB: 50 -> 55
• Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
• Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19

This is clearly a buff isn't it?
First Twitch Twist combos longer.

Killing with UpB1 edgeguards will be much more rare if not virtually impossible. It might lead to sideB longer at higher percents but sideB KBG has been increased so I don't see anything big happening there, especially coupled with the SDI changes.

 

[Ulk]

How would one use dABK to combo under it's new state?

Almost like before.

She still has the combo guys! @TheUnoDeluxe's post patch bayo is so good! pic.twitter.com/ynnsLjOu2t

— Hackoru (@HackoruTV) May 19, 2016

It's still functional, but the knockback angle and distance has been changed so much that it's extremely easy to DI or dodge out of a follow-up... so the word combo probably isn't too appropiate anymore.

An example of how air dodging interacts with it:

Last video of the night. @TheUnoDeluxe had a hard time controlling both characters so he could only mash air dodge. pic.twitter.com/2SiHyYdcDf

— Hackoru (@HackoruTV) May 19, 2016

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Bayo is still obviously a good character, what the hell are you guys talking about.

She won't become Zelda but she is not a very good character anymore.

Nair, Bair and Uair are still very good aerials

They can't combo and they don't do much damage.

Dtilt is still very good,

It has below average startup and the range was nerfed.

Heel Slide still intact

It is still very slow and not safe.

frame 1 airdodge/spotdodge still exists thanks to Bat Within

That force you to take 50% damage and her dodge are the laggiest in the game. Bat Within can backfire and frametrap her too.

escapes disadvantaged state easily thanks to After Burner Kick

ABK is not a very fast move and force her to have moderate landing lag. It doesn't keep her safe from enemies below her.

combos cannot kill but she can still get good damage from them

Like, 10 to 15%.

strong smashes and ranged for hard reads

Low priority and her FSmash is weaker than Mario's FSmash!!! Not to mention the high startup and endlag!

kill throw

At 150%+.

BY FAR the best counter in the game

What is she gonna do when she Witch Time you? Combos? Fully charged Smashes?
This is not to mention Witch Time decays massively after just one use and doesn't cancel lingering hitboxes.

This x100000

Sure, she doesn't have to be top tier. But can she at least be able to combo better than this???

Almost like before.

She still has the combo guys! @TheUnoDeluxe's post patch bayo is so good! pic.twitter.com/ynnsLjOu2t

— Hackoru (@HackoruTV) May 19, 2016

It's still functional, but the knockback angle and distance has been changed so much that it's extremely easy to DI or dodge out of a follow-up... so the word combo probably isn't too appropiate anymore.

An example of how air dodging interacts with it:

Last video of the night. @TheUnoDeluxe had a hard time controlling both characters so he could only mash air dodge. pic.twitter.com/2SiHyYdcDf

— Hackoru (@HackoruTV) May 19, 2016

Sorry if I am super negative, but this is really insane.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah, but good balance keeps the fun parts of the character while toning them down.

Bayonetta no longer has her fun parts.

I mean, it was fun for her but ok the receiving end people dispised her to the point where people threatened to quit.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I mean, it was fun for her but ok the receiving end people dispised her to the point where people threatened to quit.

Good thing they don't have to worry about her at all now. Now it is fun for the receiving end, and not for her.

 

[Vipermoon]

My biggest concern about the Bayonetta nerfs is what is the point of dABK now? Its combo potential got completely murdered and its damage took a hit too. I'm struggling to imagine a reason to use it now.

The rest of the nerfs seem much more manageable. Possibly annoying depending on how the SDI pans out on Twist, but manageable. dABK is the only question mark in my mind.

Dabk makes no sense to me because it has way less follow-up potential, yet they reduce its damage.

 

[Yikarur]

does dabk combo into normal abk at higher %? This might be the case.

Killing with UpB1 edgeguards will be much more rare if not virtually impossible. It might lead to sideB longer at higher percents but sideB KBG has been increased so I don't see anything big happening there, especially coupled with the SDI changes.

Killing with upB1 edgeguards? wasn't really the norm anyway. It's still a buff that it leads to sideB longer, the standard combo (upB sideB sideB bair) will work at higher %. SideB KBG change might cause more hitstun while still have similar combo knockback. This might not be a nerf as well. Those changes might affect her standard combos to work better to compensate for the loss of the death combos.

 

[Fenriraga]

I do think people are definitely exaggerating how much she actually got nerfed as she still has some insanely good tools at her disposal, but as far as I'm concerned, the 0-deaths and insane DI requirements are no longer an issue. And that's all I can ever really ask of the devs. Besides Shulk buffs.

 

[rm88]

It's always the same when a top tier gets nerfed, lol, we're to believe they automatically become low (or even mid tier) and it literally never happens. Not even Greninja, apparently, who never was Bayo-stupid and got massively nerfed over several patches. But right now? Bayo is literally Jigglypuff because she (presumably) doesn't have zero to death combos. That just shows you how playing only Top 5 characters can mess up your perspective.

 

[Banjodorf]

Good thing they don't have to worry about her at all now. Now it is fun for the receiving end, and not for her.

People said Cloud was "literally unplayable" after 1.1.5 and gave all the same reasonings. She's still going to be top 10, watch.

 

[CaptainJiggz]

It really Irks me that people are taking this out of Proportion. I mean, this coming from someone who has been waiting for a buff for about every patch now. Bayo gets a nerf, okay, it's not like she was wrecked, she still has a bunch of good tools that make her payable, at least your character HAS a bunch of good tools.

And on top of it, there are people actually trying to start up and make it seem like Bayo was balanced and nobody was putting in the effort to play against her. I'm literally seeing people say "UGH, THE SMASH COMMUNITY IS ALWAYS COMPLAINING INSTEAD OF GETTING GOOD, NOW LOOK, BAYONETTA GOT NERFED!"
I will say, some of these nerf are little over, but please stop making it seem like she's worse than Jigglypuff just because you're forced to put slightly more effort into pulling a win.

 

[Deemo]

I (like everyone else here) expected Bayonetta to receive some fine-tuning in this patch, but not to this extent. They were on the right track I believe when they increased the SDI multiplier on Witch Twist so that it could be easier to escape her comboes, but changing the angle to her After Burner Divekick to the point where it can't even be used as a combo starter, seems very unnecessary. There are other aspects that seemed unnecessary too (i.e. the Down Tilt and Down Air), but After Burner Divekick is the most influential. I truly hope that Bayonetta isn't hindered severely because of this. Yes her combo game was above average when compared to the rest of the cast, but I don't think this was the appropriate way to address the issue.

 

[DeadLuckChris]

Damn nerfed her to hell, guess it's time to truly master her now since people won't drag my name through the mud now lmao

 

[SoccerStar9001]

does dabk combo into normal abk at higher %? This might be the case.

Watch Ulk's video.

Killing with upB1 edgeguards? wasn't really the norm anyway. It's still a buff that it leads to sideB longer, the standard combo (upB sideB sideB bair) will work at higher %. SideB KBG change might cause more hitstun while still have similar combo knockback. This might not be a nerf as well. Those changes might affect her standard combos to work better to compensate for the loss of the death combos.

It is barely anything worth while. Witch Twist had its final hit reduced KB, but the SDI and the hitbox size reduction makes it irrelevant. ABK's KBG change makes the move harder to combo at high percent, it is a nerf.
Her standard combo are NOT buffed, they are nerfed.

People said Cloud was "literally unplayable" after 1.1.5 and gave all the same reasonings. She's still going to be top 10, watch.

I don't know what kind of people said that, but the nerf Cloud got was minor.
I guess the burden to explain why Bayonetta won't be top 10 is on my, so here I go.

Bayonetta was often sited as #1 for her combos. Now with the SDI nerf, her combos are very easy to get out. Her dive kick, one of her major approach option, have been destroy and render overall useless.
Sheik and Diddy remained high to top tiers after their nerfs because they have great framedata, mobility, combo, and tools like needle and banana to keep them in the game. Bayonetta, has none of that after her nerfs, she struggles to do much outside of combos in the first place.

 

[Champ Gold]

I do think people are definitely exaggerating how much she actually got nerfed as she still has some insanely good tools at her disposal, but as far as I'm concerned, the 0-deaths and insane DI requirements are no longer an issue. And that's all I can ever really ask of the devs. Besides Shulk buffs.

True. If Pink Fresh can easily make her work as a character and keep it up and keep developing her meta, she will be still a fun and great character


Plus she still has that God-Tier edgeguarding game more than anyone else with her down smash, Bullet Climax and Witch Time

 

[ParanoidDrone]

People said Cloud was "literally unplayable" after 1.1.5 and gave all the same reasonings. She's still going to be top 10, watch.

Are you sure you don't mean Meta Knight? I thought all Cloud got was a slap on the wrist KBG nerf to Limit Cross Slash, and a nominal-but-did-it-really-do-anything nerf to Limit Charge.

 

[Tizio Random]

I firmly believe that in two/three months we will look back at 1.1.4/1.1.5 Bayonetta and laugh about all these whinings and how we thought Bayonetta was "fine" as it is. Looking back and seeing people defending pre-patch Diddy and Sheik looks so silly. The same will happen with Bayonetta. And I know what you're thinking: no, Bayonetta wasn't as problematic as these two characters.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Plus she still has that God-Tier edgeguarding game more than anyone else with her down smash, Bullet Climax and Witch Time

She has a good edge guarding game but it isn't god tier.
Her air speed is below average and her high fall speed limit her edge guarding.
Her downsmash got low priority and it is very laggy.
Bullet Climax is a very slow projectile in terms of IASA.
Witch Time decays and most recovery are either multi hit or very fast.

 

[Bowserboy3]

True. If Pink Fresh can easily make her work as a character and keep it up and keep developing her meta, she will be still a fun and great character


Plus she still has that God-Tier edgeguarding game more than anyone else with her down smash, Bullet Climax and Witch Time

On the topic of edgeguarding, I've seen players like Riot just jump way off stage with held Nair and gimp opponents like that, and though it sounds simple, it totally works because of how good held Nair is, and she has the recovery options to make it back from far out. I've been using things like this.

 

[DJblackviolence]

lol are bayo mains really crying about the nerfs? YOU CAN ADAPT. Just like you told us to do when WE complained about your character!

 

[UberMadman]

Look guys, here's the fact of the matter: if the balance team nerfed Bayonetta, that means they agreed with the complaints, so it's not fair to say that she was only nerfed because she was complained about when they've also nerfed characters like Corrin in the past despite relatively little whining, (except about Counter Surge.) It's not like Bayonetta was only doing well at tournaments either: I got 0-to-death'd by a Bayonetta player on FOR FUN the other day, so I'm sure they are seeing her dominance online as well, especially on environments like For Glory where the average player is less likely to know counterplay than an advanced tournament-level player. So please, until we actually get a hold of the character ourselves and see how exactly how good she still is in a competitive environment after adaptation is made, can we chill with the back and forth complaining and insults?

 

[Oatha]

I really hope something was missed in the mine, like with the Pre-Cloud patch. Here's to hoping for Ganon and Jiggs buffs.

 

[RedMarf78]

Umm, to the people who are saying Bayo players should stop acting like Bayo's suddenly worse than jgglypuff, I don't think anyone on this thread has said that. From what I've been reading most people (who think the nerfs are significant) think the nerfs will end up moving her around to high-mid tier

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Basically, this is our question.

Is Diddy good without Hoo Hah?
Is Sheik good without 50/50?
Is Bayonetta good without combos?

 

[Buddhahobo]

lol are bayo mains really crying about the nerfs? YOU CAN ADAPT. Just like you told us to do when WE complained about your character!

No one is saying she can't adapt.

What we're worried about is whether she's still the same character after the nerfs.

She's a combo oriented character. It's what she's built around, not witch time.

Her most important move (Dive Kick) may or may not be relatively useless, we're worried if they nerfed the move in a way that simply made it "useless", not just "manageable" (and of all moves, that was the one that needed to be dealt with by the developers).

She can still be high tier or she can be mid tier, it's not what we're really talking about persay. It's just she seems like she may essentially be a pure "bait and punish" character now, with singular moves like witch time and bair, as opposed to a combo character.

 

[Yikarur]

Watch Ulk's video.

There is no video that answers my question.

It is barely anything worth while. Witch Twist had its final hit reduced KB, but the SDI and the hitbox size reduction makes it irrelevant.

You really think they would make a move completely useless? Thats not how it works.

ABK's KBG change makes the move harder to combo at high percent, it is a nerf.
Her standard combo are NOT buffed, they are nerfed.

I disagree. The knockback is really low and increasing the KBG on the sideB hits will most likely increase the hitstun which makes falling out through airdodge more unlikely.

Bayonetta was often sited as #1 for her combos. Now with the SDI nerf, her combos are very easy to get out. Her dive kick, one of her major approach option, have been destroy and render overall useless.

You don't know if an SDI Multiplier makes the combos easy to get out. Easier! but maybe not easy. Yoshis Dair has an SDI multiplier as well and a lot more hits and the move is still extremely powerful.

dabk might combo into abk at high%, the angle seems fitting, but we have to wait for the patch to really test everything.

 

[Deemo]

Basically, this is our question.

Is Diddy good without Hoo Hah?
Is Sheik good without 50/50?
Is Bayonetta good without combos?

Agreed, it all breaks down to these questions. Both Sheik and Diddy have proven to still be viable characters, despite the nerfs they received. Whether the same will be applied to Bayonetta, we'll know soon enough.

 

[GameCrash]

Rip King Dedede

For ****s sake what happened to Dedede?

 

[SoccerStar9001]

There is no video that answers my question.

Mario was hit by a Dive Kick at 0%. 0. And that's with no DI.

You really think they would make a move completely useless? Thats not how it works.

Dive Kick.

I disagree. The knockback is really low and increasing the KBG on the sideB hits will most likely increase the hitstun which makes falling out through airdodge more unlikely.

It was never likely to airdodge the move. In theory, at low %, it is minor buff, and a rather major nerf at higher %.

You don't know if an SDI Multiplier makes the combos easy to get out. Easier! but maybe not easy. Yoshis Dair has an SDI multiplier as well and a lot more hits and the move is still extremely powerful.

dabk might combo into abk at high%, the angle seems fitting, but we have to wait for the patch to really test everything.

Yoshi dair doesn't need to combo and has very little hitlag. The SDI multiplier is a very very big change.
Dive Kick doesn't combo into anything. One of Ulk's video showed Mario airdodge a second Dive Kick.
Plus, let's say it does combo into ABK at high%, then what? ABK had a KBG increase, so you won't follow up with anything.

 

[CaptainJiggz]

For ****s sake what happened to Dedede?

Nothing.