ZSS General Discussion

[Zero]

fufufufu

Just 3 more spots and she's right at home.

 

[solecalibur]

snake is still 2nd I still think this list is dumb if he is still there lol

edit - ike isnt low tier maybe I give them some credit

 

[Zero]

Ok, major tournament this Saturday. I have one of the best players in the country in my pool. I'm feeling REALLY confident about my skill and game lately, but I have absolutely zero good Toon Link matchup.

I need to know some matchup related stuff.

Can we complete our jab combo? If not, can he punish it?

What's his fastest OOS option? Is it slow enough that we can beat it FF jab on the ground?

What would Toon Link try to punish landings with?

How is Toon Link's vertical spacing?

Is paralyser viable as a mixup on shield? I can't tell because of his shield, but that's because I'm practicing against the "stop" bot in training mode.

Counterpick stages? I'm thinking Brinstar, while banning Halberd.

What to strike? We've got:

Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1

I'm thinking that the game will end up on Yoshi's or Smashville, but I'm hoping he's feeling overconfident and doesn't strike Battlefield.

Does paralyser go through all of Toon Link's projectiles? I don't think it does since they're not transcendent.

Sorry if I seem overinquisitive but this is a REALLY important match. I'll try to link some videos of his play too. Help me get top 8 at this tourney, guys!

 

[solecalibur]

Ok, major tournament this Saturday. I have one of the best players in the country in my pool. I'm feeling REALLY confident about my skill and game lately, but I have absolutely zero good Toon Link matchup.

I need to know some matchup related stuff.
Our neutral b stops all of his projectiles expect bomb

Can we complete our jab combo? If not, can he punish it?
No we can not, and he would normally jab punish since his grab might be too slow , never had a grab punish b4

What's his fastest OOS option? Is it slow enough that we can beat it FF jab on the ground?
Bair then Nair prob

What would Toon Link try to punish landings with?
Up Tilt , moving then bair/nair /upsmash at low %

How is Toon Link's vertical spacing?


Is paralyser viable as a mixup on shield? I can't tell because of his shield, but that's because I'm practicing against the "stop" bot in training mode.
ya but try to use uncharged if possible and realize it has more lag


Counterpick stages? I'm thinking Brinstar, while banning Halberd.

What to strike? We've got:

Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1

want BF Llyat PS1 SV YI in that order

I'm thinking that the game will end up on Yoshi's or Smashville, but I'm hoping he's feeling overconfident and doesn't strike Battlefield.

Does paralyser go through all of Toon Link's projectiles? I don't think it does since they're not transcendent.

already answered

Sorry if I seem overinquisitive but this is a REALLY important match. I'll try to link some videos of his play too. Help me get top 8 at this tourney, guys!

I'll be in red

Counter picks
Dont give him Halberd , he won't CP it but he has an easier time killing vertically then we do

Brinstar / Delfino are my picks (dont know ur stage list though)

 

[Zero]

Sole, I wouldn't really want to take him to Stadium 1. It's a long flat stage 75% of the time, not good for avoiding spam and the other half is campy, which is also not good for avoiding spam.

 

[solecalibur]

your call , I like the movement as it can save a potential camp fest and you forced to approach (just leave it towards the end Toon links normally dont like this stage) and did I mention I love your country's starter stage list?

 

[Zero]

It's not Australia's list, it's Shaya's list. The rest of the country is stupid and has FD on. I'm lucky my state has a smart TO (Shaya)

 

[solecalibur]

Its the standard with FD but I loveee your starter list you should give him/her a big hug

 

[NickRiddle]

Ok, major tournament this Saturday. I have one of the best players in the country in my pool. I'm feeling REALLY confident about my skill and game lately, but I have absolutely zero good Toon Link matchup.

I need to know some matchup related stuff.

Can we complete our jab combo? If not, can he punish it?
No. Nair/bair OOS probably punishes it.

What's his fastest OOS option? Is it slow enough that we can beat it FF jab on the ground?
Nair/bair/jab? Probably not slow enough to consistently beat with a jab.

What would Toon Link try to punish landings with?
Projectiles if you're far. Anything to pop you back up if you're close.

How is Toon Link's vertical spacing?
TL jumps very high, and has bombs/angled rangs. I'd say it's pretty good.

Is paralyser viable as a mixup on shield? I can't tell because of his shield, but that's because I'm practicing against the "stop" bot in training mode.
Paralyzer is okay. I would not use it too much, since he will probably have projectiles out.

Counterpick stages? I'm thinking Brinstar, while banning Halberd.
Banning Halberd is good, TL loves to kill up.
CP him anywhere with a big ceiling, or just a small stage in general. Brinstar and BF are where I would go.

What to strike? We've got:

Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Strike YI, PS1.
If he strikes either of those, strike SV. Lylat's platforms help you more than they help him, and the stage might kill him~

I'm thinking that the game will end up on Yoshi's or Smashville, but I'm hoping he's feeling overconfident and doesn't strike Battlefield.

Does paralyser go through all of Toon Link's projectiles? I don't think it does since they're not transcendent.
Nope.

Sorry if I seem overinquisitive but this is a REALLY important match. I'll try to link some videos of his play too. Help me get top 8 at this tourney, guys!

I try to help?

 

[Zero]

You guys da bess <3

Do you think TL can punish a perfectly spacing bair on shield? It seems like the perfect range for it is well out of TL's OOS bair range, assuming I hit behind his shield. If I hit in front, his nair may hit, but not if I buffer an escape, namely dash away or downB.

I haven't read our MU summary yet, but why is this MU considered in our favour? Not questioning, just curious

 

[NickRiddle]

You guys da bess <3

Do you think TL can punish a perfectly spacing bair on shield?No. It seems like the perfect range for it is well out of TL's OOS bair range, assuming I hit behind his shield. If I hit in front, his nair may hit, but not if I buffer an escape, namely dash away or downB.

I haven't read our MU summary yet, but why is this MU considered in our favour? Not questioning, just curious IMO TL's camp, while really annoying, doesn't bother ZSS too much. She's fast enough to get around it, and can put lots of pressure on the TL player. IIRC we kill later, but only because his u-smash is so good. Our recovery IMO is slightly better than TLs, and our aerial game is better.

TL is also one of the few characters I think ZSS beats on the ground.

Huzzah !~

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Lol nick you automatically saying FL instead of TL now aren't you?

 

[NickRiddle]

Lol nick you automatically saying FL instead of TL now aren't you?

Shut up.
I'm used to it.
Jerk.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I brove you <3

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS does beat TL on the ground. Jab is jawsome in this match-up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ok, major tournament this Saturday. I have one of the best players in the country in my pool. I'm feeling REALLY confident about my skill and game lately, but I have absolutely zero good Toon Link matchup.

Corpse?

def. record that set.

 

[Zero]

Corpse?

def. record that set.

Yep. I'm so hyped for it. Trashtalking aside, this will definitely be my hardest tournament match ever. But I'm confident I can take him.

 

[Nefarious B]

His usmash is a good kill move but it isn't particularly strong, Probably kills us at like 130 with DI? We have guaranteed uair/fair from a GR as a kill option, not that you should grab much in this matchup. Although we can grab like, every single ground move he has o.O

DA is once again really good in this matchup IMO

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

TL's that like utilt > spotdodge > utilt or any combination of the 3 annoy me to no end. If he runs at your shield he's gonna either do a running grab or crossup usmash/pivot grab, it's annoying and can't really be beaten without having to outguess him. You can roll behind him, sure, but he can catch on to that. Remember, getting grabbed by TL isn't that bad a situation.

 

[Zero]

it's annoying and can't really be beaten without having to outguess him

jump over or back

 

[Nefarious B]

Remember, getting grabbed by TL isn't that bad a situation.

Yeah that's a good point, I think TL has overall the worst grab game, or maybe second only to Samus. You can just dtilt, stutter step side b or dsmash if he's running up to you though, TL's range is not that great, and what does he do if he shields those moves at max range? Oh yeah, grab lol

I think a big part of this matchup is figuring out their zair patterns. That move is really the best thing Tink has, until the opponent figures it out and it becomes a huge liability (kinda like our side b lol). I'm not sure about the frame advantage on it though, that'd be something worth looking into

 

[Zero]

The main problem with zair will be that you can cancel an airdodge into it. If I'm in a bad position (next to him horizontally) and he airdodges, I'm going to get hit and then I'll be subject to his mixup game. I'm going to want to avoid getting hit by zair as much as possible. The good thing is that you can bait that really easily, since the zone it covers is very limited. FF airdodge when I predcit an airdodge-zair will probably be effective.

EDIT: just found this on the TL boards

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10836282&postcount=35

really poorly done lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hit TL through his upb, it only has a hitbox up front.

Catch bombs and be awesome.

 

[Zero]

Instant throwing projectiles is the best thing ever, seriously. So good against Snake if they don't cook the grenades properly. Would be even better against TL since no way TL can cook bombs that effectively.

 

[Nefarious B]

Zero they don't cancel airdodge, it's just zairing after the dodge ends. If you see a SH airdodge, you know they're going to try and space an autocanceled zair. That's just as easy as powershielding a SH laser from falco at that point, you just have to get the timing down.

Honestly SHAD to zair is the most predictable thing they can do, and rising zair doesn't combo into anything. The move is good because it's fast and combos, but you shouldn't be getting hit by it if they do it that predictably. Even a normal shield gives you enough time to atleast escape, I'm not sure about punishing

 

[Zero]

I'm pretty sure they can actually cancel their airdodge immediately into a zair.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

^confirmed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I posted some jab stuffi n the back room. I need you guys to help me test something out because I don't have access to my Wii. Can someone do that? :D

 

[da K.I.D.]

if the tink is good hes probably going to make EXTENSIVE use of the imo best tech tink has.

when he has a bomb in hand, he can drop the bomb and somehow immediately airdodge into you, without catching it again. which means every time you try to attack him in the air, not only can he air dodge it, but then you get hit by the bomb, and then he can still zair out of it. makes it STUPID hard to hit him.

also, its rare but dont get bomb cancel down smashed, its like the worst feeling in the entire world.

 

[Nefarious B]

So tink can cancel an airdodge with zair? Like, at any point just aidodge and immediately zair?

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Yes, indeed.

 

[Zero]

if the tink is good hes probably going to make EXTENSIVE use of the imo best tech tink has.

when he has a bomb in hand, he can drop the bomb and somehow immediately airdodge into you, without catching it again. which means every time you try to attack him in the air, not only can he air dodge it, but then you get hit by the bomb, and then he can still zair out of it. makes it STUPID hard to hit him.

also, its rare but dont get bomb cancel down smashed, its like the worst feeling in the entire world.

Wouldn't you only get hit by that if your aerial spacing is terrible?

and yeah nef, try it out, it's pretty good.

 

[Nefarious B]

WTF Toon Link is stupid haha, well you learn something new everyday. I just found out yesterday that holding buttons during the end game screen changes which animation your character does. Hold X for ZSS's pornstar leg lift haha

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Lol I heard that worked then I tried it out and it didn't work.

 

[Sovereign]

WTF Toon Link is stupid haha, well you learn something new everyday. I just found out yesterday that holding buttons during the end game screen changes which animation your character does. Hold X for ZSS's pornstar leg lift haha

The magic of realms, I suppose. I've been knowing that since Melee. Also, holding X is my favorite one to see.

 

[Zero]

WTF Toon Link is stupid haha, well you learn something new everyday. I just found out yesterday that holding buttons during the end game screen changes which animation your character does. Hold X for ZSS's pornstar leg lift haha

WHAT

NO WAY!

I had no idea about this either lmao

 

[SuSa]

Important for anyone who attends tournaments:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288484

Reply to me via PM or on my wall. Feel free to discuss it among yourselves and your community as well.

 

[solecalibur]

BBR isnt the best system since a lot of higher level players dont participate in the BBR sharing ideas in such but its better then what it could b

 

[Sovereign]

Hey guys, I managed to pull off the Dsmash -> Footstool gimp on HadesBlade's Yoshi, today. That gimp has made ZSS that much more dangerous on Norfair, imo. It became one of my favorite counterpicks, today.

I do have on video a nice footstool combo to Uair on Count's Diddy. I'll post up the videos, when the host uploads'em.

 

[NickRiddle]

So, Norfair is so much fun with ZSS.
Go to the edge of any of the platforms, and down-b kick to the next one.
Instant edge-cancel.
It allows for some fun stuff on the middle platform.

Down-b edge-cancel > turn-around up-b (weird edge grab thing) > cancel tether > jump bair.
It looks so cool~