Zelda's Tier

[SeventhSage]

QUESTION: What makes Zelda bottom tier ?

I want to know why Zelda isn't at least mid-tier or low tier. I can kill in very few hits with her and I never expected her to be bottom tier.

 

[Crescendolls]

I haven't heard of Zelda as bottom tier. Some people might say it is her lack of agility/jumping and her recovery time that bring her down. I use her most of the time and don't do too bad.
We'll have to wait and see if her moves are improved. I swear, Sakurai has got to be hiding something about her.

 

[Winston]

The answer is, every other character (above her) is at least as good or better.

Top tier, I don't need to cover.

Falcon has dashdance game for approach and good combos/techchasing.
Ice climbers have great ground movement with wavedash and insane grab combos.
Ganondorf kills in a few hits also, is heavier than zelda, and has a fast jab and more range on the ground.
Samus has missiles, spacing, up-b out of shield, and a good recovery.
Jigglypuff has rest combos, spacing (wall of pain), and other stuff.
Mario/Doc has combos, decent speed, good grab combo game.
Luigi is really fast on the ground, is one of the best techchasers, and his aerials lose only to like.. marth.
DK has uthrow uair, up b, and a good wall of pain game like zelda (bair).
Pikachu has tailspikes, speed, recovery, and other tricksies.


zelda's a lightweight whale. She belongs in low tier.

 

[Crescendolls]

(seriously, Jigglypuff?). I think Zelda has some great KO moves and, like any character, when you get the feel of her, can allow you to win. Farore's wind allows you to maneuver and evade where her speed fails.


Jigglypuff?

 

[Luthien]

(seriously, Jigglypuff?). I think Zelda has some great KO moves and, like any character, when you get the feel of her, can allow you to win. Farore's wind allows you to maneuver and evade where her speed fails.


Jigglypuff?

Tiers are important, but you CAN win with anyone...
... probably.

The point is, Zelda's too slow, too light, and lacks almost any form of combo ability. She's the top of bottom tier though, if that makes you feel better.

Anyway, Farore's Wind has WAY too much lag after use to be used as an arguement for speed.

 

[Zone]

Tiers are important, but you CAN win with anyone...
... probably.

The point is, Zelda's too slow, too light, and lacks almost any form of combo ability. She's the top of bottom tier though, if that makes you feel better.

Anyway, Farore's Wind has WAY too much lag after use to be used as an arguement for speed.

I sometimes use it to mind-game(For fun). People often overestimate the lag, and run into your smash attack when they finally realized where you went, to try and punish you. Also It's really not because of her recovery she is bad. There are plenty worse recoveries.

IT's cuz she runs slow, jumps slow, has alot of near useless moves in her move-set and if they have their uses it's situational. Limited combo'ing ability while she herself is mediocre at being combo'd. But she does have, her fair share of even - uneven matchups in the medium and low tier range. Zelda's moves would be 10x better if she jsut had a faster running speed/jump speed.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda probably has the least potential of any character in the game. She just doesn't have the speed to exploit, which is everything that low tier mains abuse.

 

[DH_Ninja]

I personally believe that Zelda should be a little higher on the tier list. But still, her abilities are definably lack luster, though there are a few redeeming qualities.

 

[Luthien]

I sometimes use it to mind-game(For fun). People often overestimate the lag, and run into your smash attack when they finally realized where you went, to try and punish you. Also It's really not because of her recovery she is bad. There are plenty worse recoveries.

IT's cuz she runs slow, jumps slow, has alot of near useless moves in her move-set and if they have their uses it's situational. Limited combo'ing ability while she herself is mediocre at being combo'd. But she does have, her fair share of even - uneven matchups in the medium and low tier range. Zelda's moves would be 10x better if she jsut had a faster running speed/jump speed.

*Sigh* Yeah, its fun to see it work, isn't it? Even when it does work though, it only works once.

... and yes, there are far worse recoveries. I remember playing my noob friend who was using Yoshi. He was almost back to the stage when I shouted "Up-b! UP-B!!"

Pandemonium ensued.

 

[TheLake]

Ah good ol yoshi *sighs*

Any hoot yeah Zelda sucks for all the reasons mentioned. Also her Up B can easily be punished seeing how the only thing going for it is her range (which IS quite good mind you) but her speed is just to poor. She does have some quick smashes though and wonderfully intimidating Bair and Fair (duh!). Oh and Nyarus love has some lovely knockback (but bleh to that lag...) and is the most beautiful character in the game (distraction bonus anyone?) so she at least has that going for her. But then again why else would she "own" the bottom teir?

And this of course is coming from an incredibly lousy zelda main

 

[Luthien]

I've discovered the actual reason Zelda is bottom tier.

Down-tilt.

I'm serious.

 

[greenblob]

You can use this formula for almost any tier placement reasoning: what kind of combos does this character have?

 

[rageagainst]

you must notice that the tier list is not solely based off of the merits of each character, but how often each character is used and how well they place in tournies.

If everyone used bowser he would be high tier, regardless of his lackluster moveset.

Zelda, in my opinion, has plenty of useless moves, but ppl focus too much on those and dont remember her more useful moves, namely dash, upB, B, bair, fair, fsmash, dsmash, and to an extent uair. Zelda is meant to punish ppl after she dodges an attack or something and is NOT meant to play like Fox (im talking about courses like Final Destination and Battle Field, not big courses, since speedy characters have a huge advantage against her there).

Against a really fast character like Fox I would actually rather play Zelda than Sheik simply due to the fact that her dash attack and naryus love can easily catch a darting fox since they last longer than his moves and naryus love is multidirectional, relatively big AoE, and has a short cooldown (relatively, im not comparing to top tier fox's reflector fast, but it is fast enough to put a dodge in there if you miss with it)

 

[Darkmusician]

you must notice that the tier list is not solely based off of the merits of each character, but how often each character is used and how well they place in tournies.

If everyone used bowser he would be high tier, regardless of his lackluster moveset.

Zelda, in my opinion, has plenty of useless moves, but ppl focus too much on those and dont remember her more useful moves, namely dash, upB, B, bair, fair, fsmash, dsmash, and to an extent uair. Zelda is meant to punish ppl after she dodges an attack or something and is NOT meant to play like Fox (im talking about courses like Final Destination and Battle Field, not big courses, since speedy characters have a huge advantage against her there).

Against a really fast character like Fox I would actually rather play Zelda than Sheik simply due to the fact that her dash attack and naryus love can easily catch a darting fox since they last longer than his moves and naryus love is multidirectional, relatively big AoE, and has a short cooldown (relatively, im not comparing to top tier fox's reflector fast, but it is fast enough to put a dodge in there if you miss with it)

Rather play Zelda than Sheik on Fox? No way. A good fox will eat a good Zelda alive.

Any arial to wave shine to upsmash is automatic. Most used is dair-waveshine-upsmash.
Zelda will die from Fox's upsmash on most of the neutral stages in double digits. It's disgusting how fast she dies. Not to mention waveshines in general are automatic.

It's also hard to compare the Shine to Zeldas B. In terms of lag, it is longer than people think. If you miss with it, you can get grabbed, smashed, tippered, or even rested by jiggs.
I'm not saying that will happen all the time, but if you play people enough they'll punish you for it I promise.

Playing against Fox (tournament or otherwise) with Zelda is very challenging. And what I said is only the tip of the iceberg. A good fox player will be precise, smart and relentless. You won't find as many opportunities to punish as you might think. I have had to get pretty creative to get the wins that I get. It's very frustrating. But I do my best.

Finally, I believe that Zelda is bottom tier (for whatever under used or bad in general) is because if you just hold A before the match....Sheik. If you wanna win (money,fame etc) why go Zelda? Sheik is by far and away the better character. Good projectile, good grab game, combos easily from grabs and tilts, has the speed and agility, and has good arial killing moves.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's dtilt is one of her better attacks, imo. Its ability to shield stab is astounding due to the weird hitbox. It can also pop them up at mid-high damages, giving you a free, quick hit afterwards.

 

[IC3R]

Zelda's dtilt is one of her better attacks, imo. Its ability to shield stab is astounding due to the weird hitbox. It can also pop them up at mid-high damages, giving you a free, quick hit afterwards.

Hurray for IASA frames!

Zelda's D-Smash isn't too shabby either: quick, decent knockback at a low arch...Regal Spin owns Fastfallers trying to recover. It's also fun to use after you're done spamming her D-Tilt lol

I used to be able to pull off something I call the Double Strike: Jump over a foe and abuse the last few frames of Zelda's D-Air (kinda like Capt. Falcon's Nipple Spike), then follow up with her B-Air on the way down. Works great at higher percentages, the Light Stomp will either Meteor the foe onto the ground, or make them bounce off the ground, from which her Reverse Lighting Kick can do what it does best: OWN!!!! I doubt it'll work these days, with all the people pulling Wavedashes, ShieldGrabbing, and other random stuff...

ZELDA = T3H H0TN3SS!!!!! >_>;

 

[CHAOSDRAGON88]

I main zelda and i have to say that she got the shaft( No sexual innuendo intended). I think this is the reason they gave her sheik so they cant take it back not now! There are some matches that you cant play with zelda, fox being one of them. Peach cant beat me when i have zelda but i am good no internet fame but i am good.

 

[DarkRenji]

Zelda owns because of her down B. Nuff said.

 

[darkatma]

Zelda probably has the least potential of any character in the game. She just doesn't have the speed to exploit, which is everything that low tier mains abuse.

Wow this is exactly what i wanted to say when I read the first post of the thread

 

[Luthien]

Zelda's dtilt is one of her better attacks, imo. Its ability to shield stab is astounding due to the weird hitbox. It can also pop them up at mid-high damages, giving you a free, quick hit afterwards.

Hmm, I stand corrected. I knew it could shield stab, but I haven't really bothered to use it after my opponent's damage has gotten high. I suppose I'll have to give it a try, thanks for the info.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Dtilt is also a good edge-guard vs. certain sweet spotters like Ganon and Bowser. Dtilt-dsmash works well against them.

As far as Zelda's tier, she's either rock-bottom or very close to it. As I said before, she just doesn't have the speed to avoid being gimped by camping strategies which practically everyone else can abuse on her.

 

[Irow]

IMO, Zelda is lower than Mewtwo. I notice whenever I pull out Mewtwo against Zelda and start winning, they pull out Down-B.

 

[darkatma]

Dtilt is also a good edge-guard vs. certain sweet spotters like Ganon and Bowser. Dtilt-dsmash works well against them.

As far as Zelda's tier, she's either rock-bottom or very close to it. As I said before, she just doesn't have the speed to avoid being gimped by camping strategies which practically everyone else can abuse on her.

Yay you brought back the old avatar =]

 

[Deleted member]

IMO, Zelda is lower than Mewtwo. I notice whenever I pull out Mewtwo against Zelda and start winning, they pull out Down-B.

...That has nothing to do with zelda's tier placing. But i do think that mewtwo is a bit better, due to being faster (with WDing), ability to combo, and better recovery.

 

[Zone]

IMO, Zelda is lower than Mewtwo. I notice whenever I pull out Mewtwo against Zelda and start winning, they pull out Down-B.

Maybe better than zelda at certain match ups. Dunno I don't know mewtwo's metagame very well.

 

[Darkmusician]

I like Roykos avatar. Green. :]

I wonder when they're gonna reveal Zelda's moveset in brawl. Probably when they reveal sheik as final smash or something. I wonder if they seperate them as two different chars in brawl as well. Might affect peoples view of her.

 

[S2]

Maybe better than zelda at certain match ups. Dunno I don't know mewtwo's metagame very well.

The thing is, Mewtwo has a lot of potential and crazy things he can do. Anyone who's played Taj will attest that M2 in the right hands can pull a lot of crazy little tricks. Due to his weight, the ways he floats, and how he get's pushed by things gives him a little more depth.

Of course, M2 isn't all that great in the end. For all of the neat little tricks he can pull off, he still gets KOed really easy and lacks priority. Its also hard for him to get early kills. For a long time I think he was stuck way too low on the tier list (he's not bottom imo), although he's obvoiusly not all that high on it either.


Zelda's problem is that she really lacks the unpredictability of a character like M2. She's not all that powerful and she dies quick... but this is compounded by the fact that her speed and physics make her very predictable.

Besides her B-air and F-air, she lacks both quick kill attacks and she doesn't have many speedy jab type attacks to abuse.

She doesn't suck, its just her potential isn't all that high. As a stand-alone character she is pretty mediocre. But if your a Sheik player, she's a pretty good asset for a few troublesome matchups.

 

[Zone]

The thing is, Mewtwo has a lot of potential and crazy things he can do. Anyone who's played Taj will attest that M2 in the right hands can pull a lot of crazy little tricks. Due to his weight, the ways he floats, and how he get's pushed by things gives him a little more depth.

Of course, M2 isn't all that great in the end. For all of the neat little tricks he can pull off, he still gets KOed really easy and lacks priority. Its also hard for him to get early kills. For a long time I think he was stuck way too low on the tier list (he's not bottom imo), although he's obvoiusly not all that high on it either.


Zelda's problem is that she really lacks the unpredictability of a character like M2. She's not all that powerful and she dies quick... but this is compounded by the fact that her speed and physics make her very predictable.

Besides her B-air and F-air, she lacks both quick kill attacks and she doesn't have many speedy jab type attacks to abuse.

She doesn't suck, its just her potential isn't all that high. As a stand-alone character she is pretty mediocre. But if your a Sheik player, she's a pretty good asset for a few troublesome matchups.

I agree mewtwo isn't also IMO bottom. IMO it's kirby, or Roy.
But Zelda has more KO moves than just b-air and F-air. F-Smash D-Smash (Very fast smash attacks). All of which can be led to out of Dash-attack, Sometimes grabs, or used to outprioritize recovering characters. And you act like b-air and f-air isn't all you need lol, it comes out clearly fast enough, with decent range. Mewtwo's potential is just as limited as Zeldas. Using 1-2 big names to support your point doesnt' really prove anything. IMO if Zelda or Mewtwo win vs a way higher tier, They were just far more outplayed or didn't know the match up. Which is common especially for Zelda. People don't play safe enough and get kicked. Or how to DI correctly like my friends do who play me all the time. I mean how often do people run into a really good M2 like Taj, or a REally good Zelda like say Umbreon Mow. Not very often, and even less likely they know wth to do against someone who uses them really well.

Zelda may lack predictability, because of less useful moves than most characters. But, if your tricky enough to get 4 b-airs on Yoshi's story, their dead anyways.

Dunno IMO, mewtwo and Zelda play way opposite and are better than eachother at certain match ups. Like Zelda > Mewtwo for fighting Ganon IMO.

and Mewtwo > Zelda to say try and fight a Fast Faller.

 

[S2]

I agree mewtwo isn't also IMO bottom. IMO it's kirby, or Roy.
But Zelda has more KO moves than just b-air and F-air. F-Smash D-Smash (Very fast smash attacks). All of which can be led to out of Dash-attack, Sometimes grabs, or used to outprioritize recovering characters. And you act like b-air and f-air isn't all you need lol, it comes out clearly fast enough, with decent range. Mewtwo's potential is just as limited as Zeldas. Using 1-2 big names to support your point doesnt' really prove anything. IMO if Zelda or Mewtwo win vs a way higher tier, They were just far more outplayed or didn't know the match up. Which is common especially for Zelda. People don't play safe enough and get kicked. Or how to DI correctly like my friends do who play me all the time. I mean how often do people run into a really good M2 like Taj, or a REally good Zelda like say Umbreon Mow. Not very often, and even less likely they know wth to do against someone who uses them really well.

Zelda may lack predictability, because of less useful moves than most characters. But, if your tricky enough to get 4 b-airs on Yoshi's story, their dead anyways.

Dunno IMO, mewtwo and Zelda play way opposite and are better than eachother at certain match ups. Like Zelda > Mewtwo for fighting Ganon IMO.

and Mewtwo > Zelda to say try and fight a Fast Faller.

I think I came off as supporting M2's tier placement a little more than I actually do (I love him, but yeah, he aint good).


I played Taj's M2 at a tournament once and it was painfully obvious that he was beating people (myself included) by good mindgames and heavily capitalizing on mistakes. Yes, he was very technical, but it wasn't like M2 was some unstoppable force. Taj switched to Fox once he got high enough in the tournament, he wasn't going to be playing Ken with M2.

When it comes to killing moves, M2's worse than Zelda for sure. But the way M2 moves works very well when compounded with the fact that people don't see a lot of tourney M2's. Of course, no matter how irratic he is, the fact that he's slow keeps him from being too much of a terror.

Its kinda pointless arguing which one is better. Both M2 and Zelda are towards the bottom. If one was better than the other, it'd only be slightly, plus not enough people play as or against these character in tournaments enough to really know.

You're right about how they have very different favorable matchups. Another aspect that makes comparing who's better virtually pointless.

 

[L-10]

well m2 has mindagames
and zelda has that bairrrr =P

 

[MalcolmM]

zelda's so low on the list because not only is she incredibly slow...she has an insanely odd jab that IMO is terrible compared to most of the other characters. She has two smash attacks (foward and up) that can be DI'd out of. ...and u will take 1% with no knockback...that is a huge disadvantadge. Her kicks are insanely obvious...she has no real approach...her down air is an abomination... her projectile has as many uses as luigi's taunt spike. and my personal favorite...her grab. whoever gave her that magical what seems like 10 minute grab movement...obviously hated her. But i still love her...play her everyday. and on top of that...if u consider her as a seperate character...she lacks a down b. so she has a bunch of ****ty moves...and is shorted one so she can turn into that broken thing...

Love u zelda...jus gotta b honest.

 

[Buh]

The reason Zelda is bottom tier is because of how many terrible match-ups she has:

Fox: Run away and laser, when she approaches, stand back, wait for her to land, and waveshine her across the stage into an upsmash. Kills around 90% on most stages.

Falco: Similar to Fox, except instead of the waveshine, you do the standard dair to shine combo until you can get her far off the stage with a bair. Then you laser her as she is recovering her, which essentially forces her to recover on the stage (sweet spotting the edge is difficult for her when she is being lasered), which sets her up for another bair.

Sheik: Just chain grab Zelda, needle her, tilt combo her, whatever. Needles force Zelda to approach, and her approach is terrible.

Marth: His fair is longer than Zelda's, meaning her approach gets owned by Marth's defense. Marth also has a ridiculously easy time comboing Zelda.

Captain Falcon: Dash dance outside of her fair range until she does something (literally, anything) and come in with a zero to death combo.

Ganondorf: Ridiculously strong aerials combined with ridiculous range allows him to dominate this match up.

 

[Luthien]

As I said before, she just doesn't have the speed to avoid being gimped by camping strategies which practically everyone else can abuse on her.

Speaking of camping, are there any ways to counter that with Zelda at all? I haven't really been camped by anyone before (effectively anyway. But that's because they were bad, not because I was good), but foresee it happening in the near future. I would like to know what options I have with stopping it before it screws me over. I'm assuming Din's Fire won't work. Anti-Fox/Falco-camping tips in particular would be great.

 

[Buh]

Din's Fire can actually be used if you're smart enough to predict them. You shoot it, and they run at you. You let it explode in front of you, and they run into it.

Still, it's best to just remain slightly beyond range of a sweet-spotted fair. It puts pressure on Fox and Falco not to try and laser. Samus can't camp Zelda because her projectiles are too slow, and you can use Nayru's Love at certain points to reflect Pills back into Doc and immediately hit him with Nayru's love, which sends him flying, setting up for a fair.

Against a good Fox, you're screwed, though. Space well, and don't get hit.

Against Falco, you can do with Nayru's Love the same as you would do to Doc.

 

[Luthien]

Din's Fire can actually be used if you're smart enough to predict them. You shoot it, and they run at you. You let it explode in front of you, and they run into it.

Thank you. Useful info.

Still, it's best to just remain slightly beyond range of a sweet-spotted fair. It puts pressure on Fox and Falco not to try and laser.

Are you saying stay in their face (that's a genuine question; I'm rather easily confused)? So, make them worry that if they laser, they'll get faired? I hope I understand.

Samus can't camp Zelda because her projectiles are too slow, and you can use Nayru's Love at certain points to reflect Pills back into Doc and immediately hit him with Nayru's love, which sends him flying, setting up for a fair.

Woohoo! Thank you! *Locks info inside head*

Against a good Fox, you're screwed, though. Space well, and don't get hit.

Don't get hit? *Sigh* Easier said than done for me...

Against Falco, you can do with Nayru's Love the same as you would do to Doc.

So, if I'm close, I should use Naryu's Love and hope the spikes hit him in addition to the relfected laser? Ok then, should I'm assuming I should power-shield when I'm farther away, right? Thank you for your help.

 

[Buh]

Thank you. Useful info.

Be careful with this. It's terrible against Fox and Falco, because they'll just laugh in your face and laser. I guess if you're against a hyper aggressive Fox, it would work, but it's still really risky. I've already used it so much against Hylian that it doesn't work anymore, so his Fox just waveshine infinites me every time I try the stupid mindgame.

Against Falcon, if you're not careful, he'll just throw his ****ing knee at you. Basically, don't do it against Falcon anywhere but Dream Land and Final Destination. And even there, be careful!

Are you saying stay in their face (that's a genuine question; I'm rather easily confused)? So, make them worry that if they laser, they'll get faired? I hope I understand.

Exactly.

It's just pressure. It's the same concept you'd do with Marth. Basically, too many people try to be patient against campers, and you can't (unless you're up a ridiculous amount, like 2-3 stock).

Basically, if you're far away, Falco has nothing to worry about. He can just short-hop fast-fall lasers over and over, and you take a lot of damage for it. So you have to get in his face, close enough so that, if he tries to laser, you punish him for it.

It's still very difficult, because Zelda sucks ***, but the concept is the same with every character, really.

Woohoo! Thank you! *Locks info inside head*

Not sure if I mentioned this, but it works wonders against Samus. At low damages there are occasions where I can predict when a Samus will use her charged shot. Basically, you get 25% from the charged shot + whatever % from the Nayru's Love, and she stays close enough to you to get fair'd, with stun to the attack. Most Samuses will be like "WTF" when it happens, too, because it's like you took away the knockback on the attack, so they'll be set up for fair perfectly.

At high damages (and Samus will get to high damage, trust me), don't do this, because you want the charged shot to KO her. If you do do it, the Nayru's Love will send her too far for you to do anything, so you'll basically just increase her damage when a fair would have killed her anyway.

And don't go overboard with trying to predict her charged shot. Once she knows you're trying, she just has to wait for you to try and fire it during the middle of your move and you get owned.

Don't get hit? *Sigh* Easier said than done for me...

It's easier said than done for any Zelda. It's basically the worst match-up in the game. Ok, maybe Marth Vs. Mewtwo and Sheik Vs. Bowser is worse, but still...

So, if I'm close, I should use Naryu's Love and hope the spikes hit him in addition to the relfected laser? Ok then, should I'm assuming I should power-shield when I'm farther away, right? Thank you for your help.

If you can powershield from close, you have a free grab. Yes, you also have a free fair, but up-throw fair and down-throw fair work for a small added percent at certain damages. Putting it more bluntly, you need to quite literally memorize every damage at which those combos work, because Zelda needs every advantage she can get in this match-up.

Powershielding is also pretty easy. You have 3 frames to do it, so OMG it looks hard . But really, you just try and shield at the last second. Some characters have bigger shields than others, so it's harder with Donkey Kong than most characters. Just practice the timing. If you can find a Falco player, you should **** him if he's not letting you practice powershielding (because he has no idea how to play Falco if he isn't spamming lasers ^_^).

 

[Hylian]

Fox vs Zelda is impossible.


<_< >_>.

 

[Buh]

Fox vs Zelda is impossible.


<_< >_>.

If Fox just runs away and lasers (correctly), then yeah.

Zelda's approach is terrible.

 

[HideousBeing]

(seriously, Jigglypuff?). I think Zelda has some great KO moves and, like any character, when you get the feel of her, can allow you to win. Farore's wind allows you to maneuver and evade where her speed fails.


Jigglypuff?

Jiggz owns. I don't understand why n00bs think jigglypuff is so bad. Is is that they can't get around her lack of decent range and she knocks easy? It's like there's nothing that can compensate for these weaknesses.

 

[MechaBoozer20XX]

Because she looks weak and new players usually dont think past landing a arial or two. Combos come eventually and than Jiggs becomes awesome.