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Zelda's Personal Matchup Thread

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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-3 for TL.
He's a pain in the ***.
Zelda's like the perfect match up for him.
She's slow as balls, floaty, tall, can't approach, her reflector sucks too much to reflect anything and she's light.
It's really hard for her to approach him, even harder than usual, she just gets hit too much.
I played (MJG though he was pretty high iirc) and it was like by the time I got near I had already eaten a large amount of damage.
Yeah he's light but when you can't safely get near him you won't really be able to do much.
Which projectiles do you need to look out for the most? Which of his kill moves will kill you the quickest? Are there any of his projectiles that are acceptable to reflect? If so when? What stages are an absolute no and should be avoid at all cost? What are TLinks options on your shield and what can you do about them? How do you punish the moves that give you the most trouble ? What distances should Zelda try to maintain ? What kinda of pressure can T Link put on Zelda while she's recovering.
 

Mocha

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This MU can be frustrating as heck. There are a ton of Toon Link players here in TX, and they've all given me a hard time. One thing to note about TL is that if you're playing a campy TL (which is usually the case) then the chances of you two going to time out are high, barring no sds or lucky kills. I don't remember if it was Germ or PJ that I played in my tourney before Hobo, but we went to time out in like, two games out of three - one with me timing him out, and one with him timing me out lol.

The main problem... approaching and getting inside. Getting past his wall of projectiles and Zairs. TLs like to air dodge + bomb drop and try to cover themselves as much as possible to avoid getting hit or grabbed. Actually, I'd go as far as to say this MU is kind of like playing Olimar, except without the grab and pivot grab spam. TL is like an aerial Olimar in the sense of being small, hard to hit and approach. They both even have tether recoveries, except TL has Up B, which has a decent range but it doesn't always sweet spot the ledge.

TL's Zair is actually not very good, but annoying, nonetheless. His projectiles can all be stopped with Din's, with precise spacing. The problem here is that he can throw out multiple projectiles faster than you can have enough time to use Din's to either stop them or hit him, or both. Alternating between Din's and Nayru's is alright, but just be careful when he gets in close. 'Getting close' isn't something he'll do often though, unless he really wants to kill you.

On the aggressive side, TL's aerials can be a pain for us to deal with, especially Bair, which can be used to both combo and kill. His Up air seems to have a lasting hitbox, and can kill us surprisingly early if we're not careful. I'm not too certain about his Nair... it seems like a decent enough move to me, but I don't fight many TLs that use it very much. His Dair can spike us, however at a risky cost for him if he misses, which is why he'll try and abuse this on stages with water, like Delfino. His Dair on the ground... if it hits us, he'll bounce and be able to follow up with another aerial of his choice. If it misses us on the ground, free punish for us - just be wary of the 'wind' pushback of when he lands with Dair.

His F-smash can be SDI'd and isn't his most reliable killing move, unless you mess up your DI badly. His D-smash has a crazy knockback depending on where you are next to him. Be VERY wary of TLs who like to do this near the ledge, as they will try and gimp you by abusing the knockback of this move, even at 0 percent! His Upsmash is probably one of his more reliable grounded killing moves, though it's usually predictable, like Pika's Upsmash.

Hmm, will add more stuff if anything else comes to mind, but this is just from what I've experienced so far. Would really love to learn this MU better so I don't have more trouble with TLs here anymore sending me to Loser's Bracket xD
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Toon link is just bad for Zelda. I'd say 30:70 bad, actually.

If he understands Zoning, the matchup is pretty much over since his mid range projectile and zair poking grants him virtual impunity :/
 

Fuujin

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Alternating between Din's and Nayru's is alright, but just be careful when he gets in close. 'Getting close' isn't something he'll do often though, unless he really wants to kill you.
Are there any of his projectiles that are acceptable to reflect? If so when?
Pretty much what Mocha said. The only thing I disagree with is Din's and Nayru's usefulness.
Imo they're very scarcely useful in this match up.
The only thing worth reflecting are his arrows and sometimes boomerang.
Boomerang is usually angled downward or upwards so it isn't likely to hit him if you do reflect it.
Bombs don't go far enough to reflect unless Toon Link fairly close to you (which like Mocha said, he won't be unless he really wants a kill).
Even if you do reflect something, with the 30 frames of ending lag you're likely to get hit with another projectile.
I'd only try to reflect from pretty far away, like if hes charging an arrow or if his boomerang is coming back at you, but again only at safe distance because you're very likely to get hit with something during the ending lag if you're too close.
Sometimes you can just use Nayru's as a substitute to trying to shield everything, the duration is fairly long so sometimes you can get away with blocking an arrow and a boomerang in one use.

Din's can counter camp him slightly, if you aim it in a downward arc and the explosion hits the ground after you get hit.
Toon Link still has enough time to shield, so that tactic stops working pretty fast as you're eating a lot more damage than you're dealing.

TL's Zair is actually not very good, but annoying, nonetheless. His projectiles can all be stopped with Din's, with precise spacing.

I'm not too certain about his Nair... it seems like a decent enough move to me, but I don't fight many TLs that use it very much. His Dair can spike us, however at a risky cost for him if he misses, which is why he'll try and abuse this on stages with water, like Delfino. His Dair on the ground... if it hits us, he'll bounce and be able to follow up with another aerial of his choice. If it misses us on the ground, free punish for us - just be wary of the 'wind' pushback of when he lands with Dair.
I also have to disagree with this, his Z air isnt like Samus's or big Links but but it can be used as a kill/grab/combo set up, it pops you up slightly and has no ending lag so he can hit Zelda with it, land with no lag and follow up with up smash.
This move combined with his bombardment of projectiles makes him really hard for Zelda even at a closer ranger.
I agree that b air is a pain, its incredibly annoying, at low percents he can consecutively combo her with it due to her floatyness and size, and at higher percents and offstage it functions as a killmove.
Short hopped N air can be used as an approach and a follow up to his Z air, it also trips sometimes and he can follow up with another move after that.
I don't think D air should give Zelda too much trouble, it's sort of a gimmicky move and fortunately I never see Toon Links follow up with this from a bomb footstool combo like big Link, and even if they did it wouldn't kill.
Up air is something to watch out for at times, he can try to bait your air dodges by throwing bombs when you're above him, though I usually never found myself Toon link unless I was dying.
None of Toon Links moves other than D smash and U smash really send Zelda vertically so you shouldn't find yourself directly above him too much.

His D-smash has a crazy knockback depending on where you are next to him. Be VERY wary of TLs who like to do this near the ledge, as they will try and gimp you by abusing the knockback of this move, even at 0 percent!
This is very true, TL's d smash has some really wacky angle that it can send you at near the ledge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWlWFAnS-A&t=5m32s
Our recovery isn't as bad as Big Links but Zelda certainly doesn't want to end up in that position.

Which projectiles do you need to look out for the most?
I don't think anyone one projectile stands out as being too much better than the other, it's the combination of them that makes him extremely hard to approach.
No one projectile on its own is anything special but when you have a boomerang coming at you followed by a bomb and then an arrow(and possibly the boomerang again on its way back) its very hard to approach without getting hit.
I guess you should watch out for all of them lol, much easier said than done though.

Which of his kill moves will kill you the quickest?
I think Up smash is one of his earlier killers, like I said before he can chain Z air to a hyphen Up smash, and often times he has enough time to charge it a little.
Back air is pretty weak but he's so good at racking up damage on Zelda that he has no problem killing her.

What stages are an absolute no and should be avoid at all cost?
Pretty much any big stages, the smaller the stage the better for Zelda.
I think the stages Zelda already dislikes arent any better here.
Brinstar, Delfino, the first part Halberd.
PS2, might actually be somewhat beneficial on the water and fire parts of it, I never got to try it out though.

What are TLinks options on your shield and what can you do about them? How do you punish the moves that give you the most trouble ? What distances should Zelda try to maintain ? What kinda of pressure can T Link put on Zelda while she's recovering.
N air, B air and Z air, unfortunately these are all aerials and Zelda only OOS options wont be able to punish these if the TL spaces them well.
You need to be really good at powershielding in this match up if you hope to punish him.

What distances should Zelda try to maintain ?
Well I think it's best if she's close range against him, that way she doesn't have to worry about being camped so hard.
From the sounds of it Mocha played defensively and ended up getting timed out, I played more aggressively and just ended up eating so much damage trying to approach.
Seems like she has it pretty hard either way. :urg:

What kinda of pressure can T Link put on Zelda while she's recovering.
He sometime likes to throw his boomerang since it's the most versatile in the directions it can go in, arrows can also hit you if you're trying to recovery horizontally, but those are pretty slow.
I think its most troublesome when he chases you offstage with B air and Z air.
Z air shouldnt really cause too much trouble offstage, but try not to get hit by back air as it can kill.

Edit: oh and the most reliable way to kill him is probably Up smash.
TL short hops a lot so hes in a good position to land it often times, if you can power shield his n/b air when you're close enough you could probably land it
He's mad hard to lightning kick and f smash doesn't seem very useful.
 

JigglyZelda003

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Edit: oh and the most reliable way to kill him is probably Up smash.
TL short hops a lot so hes in a good position to land it often times, if you can power shield his n/b air when you're close enough you could probably land it
He's mad hard to lightning kick and f smash doesn't seem very useful.
well you can't Fsmash what isnt low enough to zap lol

since usmash is our most reliable killer and fsmash is pointless, what other moves should we use to rack up damage ant try to keep usmash fresh?
 

Fuujin

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well you can't Fsmash what isnt low enough to zap lol

since usmash is our most reliable killer and fsmash is pointless, what other moves should we use to rack up damage ant try to keep usmash fresh?
Well we certainly can't rely on grabs too often.
N air also wont be too useful because we get ouspaced.
We could try dash attacks , maybe catching his landing with D tilt and D smash.
Unfortunately that isn't much to work with.
 

AlanHaTe

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Fair is one of his kill moves, what I've experienced vs Tlink is that near the edge he can push us away and we fall, we need to jump and if Tlink reads correctly we could eat a Fair... not his best/powerful kill move, but it surely can kill...

another good setup we can see is Zair near the edge > dash attack that thing send us downward and we could get gimped, so be careful.

about Tlink's Dsmash it can only send you downward on early percents like from 0-30 (?) later it just doesn't happen

well what I don against Tlink is to PS as many **** as I can WHEN I HAVE TO, and many times I just read the airdodge cancel > Zair when "approaching" PS it and either follow up with Dash attack, Dsmash or he really screws up with a kick... not very easy because smart Tlinks do Zair retreating, but it can happen.

his Nair if like his most used OoS option I think, it's very fast! but he may use Bair too if we end up behind him.

because of this and some GTFO things his Nair can become somewhat decayed, but it won't matter to much because he easily refreshes it with the spam armor.

I agree with Fuujin about Din's aimed to the ground, obv don't do it every single time lol. Maybe as a mix up could be useful to catch the bombs and make some mindgames with them or just airdodge cancel catch/throw 'em... be creative!!

I honestly think it's a -2 or -3 kind of winnable if we're patient and get the right opening, but it's very hard to do so...
 

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Castle Siege wouldn't be a terrible stage to take him to if you're comfortable with it (like not letting the first part of the stage's edges gimp you). The second part of the stage can block out his projectiles with the statues, while allowing you to use Din's to zoom past the statues. TL may just run away though and try to avoid you till the second part is over, then go back to camping lol
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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yeah. I definitely say to avoid stages like, say, Final Destination which are large, allowing him to camp, and have absolutely no impediments to his projectiles.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I agree with some of your stuff but then I have trouble following some other stuff. I could be wrong however but because Zelda is light and floatly she really shouldn't be combo'd by bair and I do believe that she can naryu's in between them. Also I think being able to power shield shouldn't need to be stated if a player isn't capable of powersheilding projectiles then they really don't have much merit in the MU discussion.

Also I think when she's off stage they'll go for fair or nair before bair since it kills earlier if I'm not mistaken. As for the stages were you saying you didn't like brinstar/halbred/delfino for zelda?
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Nayru's works well in this matchup IF YOU OCCASIONALLY MIX IT IN. It is so incredibly punishable if you try to reflect regularly throughout the matchup, but most people forget Zelda even HAS a reflector since it's so bad at actually being used like one.

My advice would be to powershield TL's projectiles for most of the match, and, if you see a good opening for it, you can reflect as a surprise.
 

Mocha

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Yep Hedge, powershielding is definitely helpful to learn in this MU. Well it's helpful in general but especially against these kinds of MUs where projectiles are annoying as heck to deal with. *cough* Falco's lasers anyone?

It was mentioned earlier that you can try to catch his bombs too. When throwing it with glide tossing, I don't recommend throwing it forward all the time because sometimes you'll glide toss right into him with the bomb, causing you both to blow up! Glide tossing and throwing it up, or a retreating forward throw may be more viable. Throwing it down is obviously not a good idea either, unless you're in the air, but you can't glide toss in the air. If you're just throwing it normally, try to hit him if you can. His bombs are meh, but you may be able to temporary push aside his camp fest and 'get in' if he gets hit back by his own stuff.

As for reflecting boomerang on the way back, does it even reflect on the way back? If it does, you can kind of use this to your advantage to set up some kind of 'combo' following from a reflected boomerang hit on him. xD
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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As for reflecting boomerang on the way back, does it even reflect on the way back? If it does, you can kind of use this to your advantage to set up some kind of 'combo' following from a reflected boomerang hit on him. xD
basically, reflecting it on the way back just gives you possesion of the boomerang without changing its trajectory at all. especially given the way tink tends to use boomerang returns, nayru's could be good. Best case scenario, you'll counter his approach AND hit him with the boomerang . . . but worst case scenario, he'll hit you out of nayru's AND you'll still get smacked with a boomerang . . . which is what WILL happen if you start to use Nayru's predictably. It should ALWAYS be used to reflect ONLY if you can keep your foe guessing.
 

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Zelda's glide toss is an amazing approach.

If they've never seen it before, Glide toss > sliding d-smash/u-smash is so lol.

imo anyway
 

Kataefi

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As for reflecting boomerang on the way back, does it even reflect on the way back? If it does, you can kind of use this to your advantage to set up some kind of 'combo' following from a reflected boomerang hit on him. xD
^yeah it does reflect on the way back. He has to avoid it as it hones in on him. If it's out for too long it will disappear though.
 

Alacion

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Toon Link... really annoying with his projectiles and Zair making it hard for Zelda to approach. May be wrong but if you let Din's pop too early, his Hylian shield (never played a TL game so not sure what the shield's called) can cancel it?

Nayru's Love on the boomerang on the way back is pretty neat though, since the boomerang doesn't really change in trajectory so it can be a nice surprise the first time you use it.

His basic jab attack always seems to get me too...

I'd put TL at -2/-3.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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After reading what everyone had to say about the MU and mixed with my own thoughts about the MU I'm going to have to say it's -1.

While his projectile game may present a problem with Zelda we must first remember to keep it within reason. His projectile game isn't as good as pitt's/faclo's or foxes. Then we must also remember that his kill power isn't very great and once we can identify how he kills and what he likes to use to kill we can avoid those situations. Then there's plenty of little things in the match that can gives Zelda an opening and allows her to take advantage of some of his weakness's.
 

#HBC | Scary

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That's true that every TL does have a pattern but just his moves and ability to play keep away make this worse than a -1 although not much worse than I have it at -2.

:phone:
 

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After reading what everyone had to say about the MU and mixed with my own thoughts about the MU I'm going to have to say it's -1.

While his projectile game may present a problem with Zelda we must first remember to keep it within reason. His projectile game isn't as good as pitt's/faclo's or foxes.
Fox's lasers don't give Fox any free followups on Zelda, Toonies crap can :c
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Fox's lasers don't give Fox any free followups on Zelda, Toonies crap can :c
It doesn't need to give him any follow up it racks damage and forces Zelda to approach. T link has to be at certain distances for his projectiles to be effective. Fox starts blasting those lasers and it makes you approach. I'm not sure how you play with Zelda but I'd prefer my opponent to come to me. Although with some characters it doesn't matter if they approach or not (MK).
 

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ZSS is tough...

When the match first starts you can't even Din's because of the power suit parts making long range battle difficult if you're not very good at an items game like me lol.

You can't be too close because of the risk of her dsmash and her d/u tilt -> <insert aerial>. In mid-range you have to be prepared to (power) shield her side b and neutral b at all times. The juggling she does with her uair isn't fun at all either. Also, it's hard to edgeguard ZSS too. She has so many options like up b, side b, and down b -> footstool.

The good news is that ZSS is rather light and tall like Zelda. Also, her side b recovery isn't as quick a tether as say somebody like Sheik's so that's a good time Din's her, I think. If you can put ZSS in a situation where she needs her up b to recover, that would be the only chance to gimp her. Keep in mind up b can spike... lol.

I think the matchup is a solid -3 from me. :(

Could use some Ed optimism by now :x
 

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I haven't played against a good ZSS :( like.... ever. I wreck all the ones I fight, and I know this matchup isn't 60:40 Zelda, so I'll sit this one out.


At least we can glide toss! ^___^
 

#HBC | Scary

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No amount of Ed optimism cam save me from saying the Nick Riddle bullies me in this MU. I'm tired and heading to bed but this one is truly bad. Then again, it could be Nick Riddle so I'll say -2 and smile a tad.

:phone:
 

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LoL all of Zelda's MU's are -20 ? really guys.
Agreed. Saying that all of Zelda's MU's is like fighting Olimar or worse is eh.

If you can handle her items with a combination of shielding, Nayru's Love (sparingly), item catching with zair or aerial, or even Din's Fire (with precise timing, though I wouldn't recommend doing this too much, especially if she's glide tossing). Using the items against her can be devastating for her because of the ridiculous knockback, and even though her recovery isn't the worst tether recovery out there - having her knocked far away from those pieces can result in her not being able to make it back. Keep in mind she can also try and catch her items back or use her b move to stop it.

Also keep in mind that the knockback of those pieces can put you in a very bad position as well to recover. Nayru's Love jump can be useful for this because (a. It allows you to go really high, since the pieces have a powerful horizontal knockback and is likely to get you edgehogged or not allow you to make it back at all... and b. As you're Love Jumping back to the stage, you have a reflector for a moment to reflect back any other pieces she decides to throw at you.) One thing i would be careful about Nayru's Love Jump in this MU however is not to use it too much. If the ZSS is smart, she can bait the Love Jump, and punish with her powerful up air. Her jump is also very high so she may not have too much trouble getting to you.

If you can't handle her items though, I would advise you to just throw them away the moment you're able to get a hold of them.

Her down smash is ********. Expect it if you're beneath a platform and she's on top of it, or if you're hanging from the edge. Don't hang on the edge for too long!

I may add some stuff later, but I'm in class atm. Some of the other stuff I was going to say has already been stated. I'm leaning to 60:40 ZSS, but this is just personal opinion and exp.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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This really irks me however, I wish we can past starting a MU discussion with "if you can powershield". I would like to believe that we don't need to have this stated in every MU discussion before we talk MU's because quite frankly you should be able to powershield.

What does ZSS actually do that presents a problem for Zelda ? I really don't see the match up as a disadvantage for Zelda but what does ZSS do that puts Zelda at a disadvantage. I understand about the pieces however, that's a two set and only the initial part of the match once she no longer has her armor pieces what does she threaten Zelda with ?
 

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ZSS's stunning Dsmash and her Side B keeps the pressure on Zelda and makes it very difficult to approach (and that's all Zelda can do). Power shielding is especially important for ZSS, because her Side B (Plasma Whip?) is incredibly powerful with large knockback. The sourspot for Side B knocks you directly into the sweetspot too. If you can power shield that attack, Zelda could probably get in and do some damage to ZSS.

With all the options ZSS has, gimping her is extremely difficult as well. Down B can lead to a footstool if you're on the ledge and if you're on stage, ZSS can do the downward kick which is very powerful. Up B is pretty much instant like Sheik's tether but her Side B is slightly slower, which is something Zelda can try to capitalize on.

The lag from Farore's Wind is perfect for ZSS to Dsmash you with. When you get hit by a Dsmash, it stuns you long enough for ZSS to do another DSmash (10+9%?) and another attack.

ZSS' Up and Down tilts put Zelda in the air. Zelda has an abysmal air game and ZSS excels in the air. Adding in Zelda's lightness and floatiness makes things even worse. Extremely powerful Up, Forward, and Back aerial attacks. At low %, Uair can juggle and at high %, you'll easily die.
 

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No amount of Ed optimism cam save me from saying the Nick Riddle bullies me in this MU. I'm tired and heading to bed but this one is truly bad. Then again, it could be Nick Riddle so I'll say -2 and smile a tad.

:phone:

lol what is this logic?

You can't say, "this MU is only -3 when so and so is playing".

"so and so" is still using said character whether they're the only person in the world using that character to their optimal potential or not.

It's not like when ESAM is using Pikachu he magically increases Pikachu's knock back by 0.5 times or all of his moves do double damage and make the match up harder for you.
That's the same Pikachu every other person is using.
It can't be "lol -4, but ______ is just that good!!!, it's probably -2"
That makes no sense.
 

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ZSS's stunning Dsmash and her Side B keeps the pressure on Zelda and makes it very difficult to approach (and that's all Zelda can do). Power shielding is especially important for ZSS, because her Side B (Plasma Whip?) is incredibly powerful with large knockback. The sourspot for Side B knocks you directly into the sweetspot too. If you can power shield that attack, Zelda could probably get in and do some damage to ZSS.

With all the options ZSS has, gimping her is extremely difficult as well. Down B can lead to a footstool if you're on the ledge and if you're on stage, ZSS can do the downward kick which is very powerful. Up B is pretty much instant like Sheik's tether but her Side B is slightly slower, which is something Zelda can try to capitalize on.

The lag from Farore's Wind is perfect for ZSS to Dsmash you with. When you get hit by a Dsmash, it stuns you long enough for ZSS to do another DSmash (10+9%?) and another attack.

ZSS' Up and Down tilts put Zelda in the air. Zelda has an abysmal air game and ZSS excels in the air. Adding in Zelda's lightness and floatiness makes things even worse. Extremely powerful Up, Forward, and Back aerial attacks. At low %, Uair can juggle and at high %, you'll easily die.
I couldn't find the frame data for ZSS side b but here's the data for her dsmash

D-smash Raw Data:
Entire Length: 48
Start Up (Before Charge): 16
Charge Release: 5 (that's a good number)
Hitbox Out: 21
Hitbox End: 26
IASA: 36
Hitbox Data:
Damage: 11/11
Direction: 46/46
KBG: 32/32
BKB: 28/28
Advantage: -5
Shield Drop Advantage: 1 (that's an amazing number)
Like are you really going to sit here and be like ZOMG must power shield this move when it hits on frame 20 ? THat's more start up than any of Zelda's grounded moves. Once again this steps into the realm of the problem I have when people start discussiong MU's around here and just go LoL this number.

If you want to talk about ZSS tilts then their really not very good (like a snakes or Sheik's). ZSS ulilt. ZSS's tilts Ftilt (frame 6) U tilt (frame 3) d tilt (frame 5). For Zelda her fastest ground move is dsmash (frame 4) and dtilt (frame 5). So yeah ZSs utilt may come out quicker than anything we have on the ground (same with her jab). However, through spacing and using the right moves that can be negated. Not only that Her tilts aren't super strong to the point where she can fall back on. The cool down on some of her moves if whiffed are laughable. (Even with Zelda I can say that).


lol what is this logic?

You can't say, "this MU is only -3 when so and so is playing".

"so and so" is still using said character whether they're the only person in the world using that character to their optimal potential or not.

It's not like when ESAM is using Pikachu he magically increases Pikachu's knock back by 0.5 times or all of his moves do double damage and make the match up harder for you.
That's the same Pikachu every other person is using.
It can't be "lol -4, but ______ is just that good!!!, it's probably -2"
That makes no sense.
Umm name dropping is always a clear indicator of how knows what /sarcasm. FYI you did the same thing with Tlink. Before I asked you anything (which you answered)
 

JigglyZelda003

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It doesn't need to give him any follow up it racks damage and forces Zelda to approach. T link has to be at certain distances for his projectiles to be effective. Fox starts blasting those lasers and it makes you approach. I'm not sure how you play with Zelda but I'd prefer my opponent to come to me. Although with some characters it doesn't matter if they approach or not (MK).
Granted i may be a bit bias because i also play Fox, but if your too close Fox can't shoot you safetly, same as Toonie. They both can start fireing something from the matchs start, it just works differently. we all would like a matchup where our opponent comes to us, but most of the time Zelda has to go to them anyway.
This really irks me however, I wish we can past starting a MU discussion with "if you can powershield". I would like to believe that we don't need to have this stated in every MU discussion before we talk MU's because quite frankly you should be able to powershield.
i always assume decent power shielding is necessary in matches by default.
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
When did I ever say something along the lines of "When I play MJG I feel like it's -3, but thats probably just because hes so good"?
I don't have a problem with name dropping, I have a problem with people giving different match up ratios based on the player, rather than the character.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Granted i may be a bit bias because i also play Fox, but if your too close Fox can't shoot you safetly, same as Toonie. They both can start fireing something from the matchs start, it just works differently. we all would like a matchup where our opponent comes to us, but most of the time Zelda has to go to them anyway.

i always assume decent power shielding is necessary in matches by default.
I just feel as though power shielding is a requirement for when you decide to game this game seriously and it shouldn't be something that's needed to be repeated for every MU. As for fox yeah if you get close to him he can no longer Laser safely. However, I see it as everytime you get hit by that laser he's that much closer to hit you with an usmash. If he chooses to he can side B and continue to shot you.


When did I ever say something along the lines of "When I play MJG I feel like it's -3, but thats probably just because hes so good"?
I don't have a problem with name dropping, I have a problem with people giving different match up ratios based on the player, rather than the character.
Ah I got ya. Going back and reading your post you didn't go I played MJG so it's -3 my bad.
 

JigglyZelda003

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I just feel as though power shielding is a requirement for when you decide to game this game seriously and it shouldn't be something that's needed to be repeated for every MU. As for fox yeah if you get close to him he can no longer Laser safely. However, I see it as everytime you get hit by that laser he's that much closer to hit you with an usmash. If he chooses to he can side B and continue to shot you.
yes it probably doesn't need to be mentioned eveytime just assumed.

as for Fox, i just think of it as he can run away/around me all day, but every couple lasers i can return that same damage w/ one attack.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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yes it probably doesn't need to be mentioned eveytime just assumed.

as for Fox, i just think of it as he can run away/around me all day, but every couple lasers i can return that same damage w/ one attack.
Yeah but landing that one attack can be problematic at times.
 

Alacion

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Well it's however you see it to be honest.

I just find that ZSS' tilts are good setups for her aerial game. Her tilts themselves aren't that good. I don't look into frames and stuff but I"m sure the game on paper is quite different than the real thing. ZSS's Dsmash is like... a keep away attack and just wait until it hits and stuns you. You're probably gonna start feeling differently about her Dsmash. Sure it's slow, but it strikes fear into many opponents.
 
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