Zelda's Personal Matchup Thread

[NickRiddle]

What frames does ZSS dtilt comes out on and how does it out priotize Zelda's ? Our hit's on frame 5. Please stop actually like ZSS tilts are good cuz they aint.

Priority in Brawl doesn't work that way, so you're already stupid.
It out-ranges it. Do you know what range is?
If you d-tilt, and whiff, my d-tilt can hit you because it is bigger.
Do you understand?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yer. <3

Basically, I went through ZSS's approach moves. No way does up air suck.

Retreating Side B from experience with Apollo is unpunishable most of the time.

@almostlegendary, ZSS's dtilt *****. Stop acting like our dtilt is the magical answer to everything when it's not because:

1) our hurtbox is massively extended
2) it's range beats ours

Edit:

Or what he said. ^

 

[Alacion]

More like... AL stop acting as if Zelda's the best char in the game. :x

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Priority in Brawl doesn't work that way, so you're already stupid.
It out-ranges it. Do you know what range is?
If you d-tilt, and whiff, my d-tilt can hit you because it is bigger.
Do you understand?

So your dtilt is better because you can whiff punish mineS? If both our details are in the same range who's wins? Who's ever is faster. IF they come out at the same time the moves will clank (dtilt may beat it IDK). Yeah I know what you're saying Nick Riddle plz don't talk down to me because I play Zelda and don't think all of her MU's are losing ones.

 

[NickRiddle]

So your dtilt is better because you can whiff punish mineS? If both our details are in the same range who's wins? Who's ever is faster. IF they come out at the same time the moves will clank (dtilt may beat it IDK). Yeah I know what you're saying Nick Riddle plz don't talk down to me because I play Zelda and don't think all of her MU's are losing ones.

I'm talking down to you because you're pretending that Zelda beats ZSS.
If she didn't have losing MUs across most of the board, she'd be higher on the tier-list.

If we're both in range of our d-tilts, yours will win. I think yours is faster... But why would I be in it's range? Is Zelda going to use her superb movement speed to get in? How DOES Zelda get in vs. ZSS anyway, or are you going to assume that your lolfireballsthatpingwitheverything are goign to deal enough damage to force my approach?
How does Zelda keep ZSS out?

This is all after armor is gone btw. With armor, this is even funnier.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Armor pieces are fun.

But yeah ZSS zones Zelda really well. Her best approach is probably running shield, since ZSS's grab is lawl.

 

[Fuujin]

Nick you must keep in mind a majority of the Zelda mains are very...ignorant to say the least about how bad their character is.

 

[NickRiddle]

Nick you must keep in mind a majority of the Zelda mains are very...ignorant to say the least about how bad their character is.

Don't worry, I think ZSS is good too.
We don't even have a grab that is faster than the average human reaction time.

Are most lol-tier character's mains adamant about how "good" their character is?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Are most lol-tier character's mains adamant about how "good" their character is?

Don't generalise like that.

Majority of us say we lose this matchup.

Majority of us say we lose every matchup except Ganon.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm talking down to you because you're pretending that Zelda beats ZSS.
If she didn't have losing MUs across most of the board, she'd be higher on the tier-list.

She does has losing MU's and the rest of the MU's are stuff where people overstate things and make wild claims. I don't remember suggesting that Zelda beat's ZSS I do remember saying that I don't see how or why Zelda losses this mU.

If we're both in range of our d-tilts, yours will win. I think yours is faster... But why would I be in it's range? Is Zelda going to use her superb movement speed to get in? How DOES Zelda get in vs. ZSS anyway, or are you going to assume that your lolfireballsthatpingwitheverything are goign to deal enough damage to force my approach?
How does Zelda keep ZSS out?

Then can I ask you this ? Why would I be whiffing my dtilt outside of it's range ? LoL at you talking bad about Zelda's movement speed when Zelda's air speed is faster than ZSS =/. I as a Zelda player will attempt you use the speed on my moves in an attempt to keep ZSS out. Of course everything changes when you have armor pieces however, I will try and use nair dtilt dsmash fsmash jab in an attempt to keep you out. Then when I'm in a pinch I'll use Nayru's. I will close the distance and attempt to avoid your armor pieces and reflect armor pieces that you clide toss towards me or I'll simply jump over them and air dodge.

However, once you are in I have to realise that your moves are faster than mines (jab and utilt) so I'll have to space accordinly to stay out of the range of those moves. If I'm successful in doing that then it becomes my advantage because your next move doesn't beat out my dtilt. If if I'm within your jab range that's not horrible because of how bad ZSS jab is what I do have to worry about is your utilt. Since the follow ups from that are way worse than jab.

This is all after armor is gone btw. With armor, this is even funnier.

Why does it become funny when you have armor ?

 

[NickRiddle]

Don't generalise like that.

Majority of us say we lose this matchup.

Majority of us say we lose every matchup except Ganon.

Nick you must keep in mind a majority of the Zelda mains are very...ignorant to say the least about how bad their character is.

I'm pretty sure this guy said it.
I quoted him and replied to it.
Don't get mad at me.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Don't worry, I think ZSS is good too.
We don't even have a grab that is faster than the average human reaction time.

Are most lol-tier character's mains adamant about how "good" their character is?

If you read these boards which you don't I'm the only one who argues that Zelda doesn't just lay down and take pipe from 99% of the cast.

 

[Fuujin]

Armor pieces are fun.

But yeah ZSS zones Zelda really well. Her best approach is probably running shield, since ZSS's grab is lawl.

So you understand that ZSS has a bad grab but you think Zelda's grab is good?
Wat?

Don't worry, I think ZSS is good too.
We don't even have a grab that is faster than the average human reaction time.

Are most lol-tier character's mains adamant about how "good" their character is?

I think not, most seem to know their character is bad.
Zelda mains swear she's like mid tier for some reason.
Maybe most of them use wifi or something, I honestly have no idea where they get this from.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Why does it become funny when you have armor ?

Zelda finds it difficult to approach when ZSS just stands there throwing armor around.

 

[Fuujin]

Bro Zelda finds it hard to approach everyone.

 

[Chuee]

Bro Zelda finds it hard to approach everyone.

You aren't using down-b enough then.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Forgive me; I'm Australian. We like to understate things for humor.

So you understand that ZSS has a bad grab but you think Zelda's grab is good?
Wat?

Only because hers is spotdodgable on reaction.

Ours is not.

In saying that, I see your point.

 

[Fuujin]

You aren't using down-b enough then.

Forgive me; I'm Australian. We like to understate things for humor.



Only because hers is spotdodgable on reaction.

Ours is not.

In saying that, I see your point.

Zelda's isn't that much better.
Hers is 4 frames faster with significantly less range and cool down.
At least ZSS has enough speed to close in on her opponent when she wants to grab.

 

[infiniteV115]

LoL at you talking bad about Zelda's movement speed when Zelda's air speed is faster than ZSS =/.

1: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
Nope, you're wrong. ZSS' maximum air speed is better.

2: All forms of ZSS' movement in this list (walk, dash, run, falling, fastfalling, etc) are either better than or equal to Zelda's movement. In velocities, accelerations AND top speeds. In fact, the only thing that Zelda has over ZSS here is weight XD

LoL at you talking bad about Zelda's movement speed when Zelda's air speed is faster than ZSS you're completely wrong =/.

 

[Fuujin]

the only thing that Zelda has over ZSS here is weight XD

LoL at you talking bad about Zelda's movement speed when Zelda's air speed is faster than ZSS you're completely wrong =/.

Funny thing is they both live till about the same percents due to ZSS momentum canceling and/or Zeldas poor momentum canceling.
IIRC correctly I think in terms of survivabilty Zelda is right above ZSS despite being fairly heavier.

 

[infiniteV115]

Funny thing is they both live till about the same percents due to ZSS momentum canceling and/or Zeldas poor momentum canceling.

ya but zelda sux lol

IIRC correctly

o.o
If I are see correctly

I think in terms of survivabilty Zelda is right above ZSS despite being fairly heavier.

I would think ZSS lives longer. Her fastfall is MUCH better (almost 25% better, assuming a linear unit system) than Zelda's, her uair finishes much faster than any of Zelda's aerials and she can completely stop her horizontal momentum with down-b (at very high percents it is almost a complete stop) whereas Zelda can only jump.
And Zelda isn't much heavier either, it's a difference of 3 in weight. The weight difference between Bowser and DK is bigger (again assuming a linear unit system).
But I suppose I could be wrong. Zelda may live longer. I'd be surprised if she did, though, considering all that I've said. I guess it depends on how big a difference those 3 units really make.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda's isn't that much better.
Hers is 4 frames faster with significantly less range and cool down.
At least ZSS has enough speed to close in on her opponent when she wants to grab.

Zeldas dash grab has invisible DDD range, which is nice.

ya but zelda sux lol

o.o
If I are see correctly

I would think ZSS lives longer. Her fastfall is MUCH better (almost 25% better, assuming a linear unit system) than Zelda's, her uair finishes much faster than any of Zelda's aerials and she can completely stop her horizontal momentum with down-b (at very high percents it is almost a complete stop) whereas Zelda can only jump.
And Zelda isn't much heavier either, it's a difference of 3 in weight. The weight difference between Bowser and DK is bigger (again assuming a linear unit system).
But I suppose I could be wrong. Zelda may live longer. I'd be surprised if she did, though, considering all that I've said. I guess it depends on how big a difference those 3 units really make.

B reversal momentum canceling makes Zelda stop completely IIRC. but because Zelda takes a bit longer and basically begins to drop if you don't fub in momentum canceling. ZSS may live a bit longer.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

1: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329
Nope, you're wrong. ZSS' maximum air speed is better.

2: All forms of ZSS' movement in this list (walk, dash, run, falling, fastfalling, etc) are either better than or equal to Zelda's movement. In velocities, accelerations AND top speeds. In fact, the only thing that Zelda has over ZSS here is weight XD

LoL at you talking bad about Zelda's movement speed when Zelda's air speed is faster than ZSS you're completely wrong =/.

Ah I guess that's what I get for trusting the wiki then I was looking for that old thread but couldn't find. I also found this thread. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952&highlight=horizontal+speeds

But *shrugs* I'll take that short for trusting the smash wiki.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Air_speed

that's where I got the info from oh wells. Thanks for the correction. However, Zelda in the air is a lot more mobile than Zelda on the ground.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The Wiki is evil and full of wrong information.

I found that out yesterday. lawl

 

[phi1ny3]

They are.

Zamus's short hop is hilarious, so up air is asking to be punished.

D-smash has 20 frames startup, in which she needs to reset her spacing. She will be punished by our own d-smash if she tries to dtilt.

Bair is probably her best approach, and it's not that good either.

Elaborate if you think what I've said is wrong plz.

Edit: Unless you were tacitly agreeing with me.

I cannot tell.

Also about Lucario, I think because our up-smash beats everything ever, it should beat Lucario trying to dair us.

And can Zelda nair > up-smash Lucario? Or is he too floaty?

I'm not sure, what's the frame advantage of FF nair to get that particular angle to usmash?

Also, dair is usef for more than just directly challenging stuff, lucarios will often stall right above where a hitbox they think is going to be and either wait to punish, or if it's too big, just use the readjustment of space to get out of the way. We do this to help bait D3 utilt, usmash punishes, etc. to help our landing since we're so floaty and prone to getting hit otherwise It happens a lot when I play Marth or MK and they want to utilt or SH uair, and I want to come back down on them and punish the whiff.

@AL: Really? I find it hard to really take you seriously, this stuff is borderline trolling. Jab is not a spacer esp. in front lol, most characters can't safely challenge a shield in front w/ a jab/tilt, it's a poke, it's usually used when we get a crossup going on. Your dtilt is not disjointed, sorry to break it to you, neither does it have transcendence at the tip.

Let's compare the hitbox, shall we?

Spoiler

For the record, no significant disjoint to speak of

Aura disjoints are partially on the 2nd hitbubble onward, he kinda curls the paw a bit for some odd reason.

Now mind you, it's a bit of an unfair comparison since the lucario pic is a bit more zoomed, but it still stands to prove a point. Our jab also has some minor frame advantage (like Zelda's dtilt at certain percents iirc), although it's only by a couple of frames. Our dtilt compared to yours is also better disjoint-wise, and on zelda is a pretty safe poke/spacer.

Spoiler

Your fsmash:

Notice that large lean-in (not to mention this is the second hitbox, the initial is significantly smaller)
Our fsmash:

It's once again disjointed, still catches ADs like a pro (lingering hitboxes allow it to trap dodges, without the disadvantage of being SDIable), has really low endlag, and since it isn't multihit, it's gonna win big time in an exchange (not to mention the tipper is actually pretty powerful, at the percent Marth's tipper fsmash kills lucario, lucario's tipper fsmash kills him as well. Oh, and I forgot, the farthest hitbubble is transcendent.

Don't get me started on the aerials. One set actually has more function besides reading punishes and gtfo, not to mention they all catch the dodge option really well, and of course those lovely disjoints (half of them also don't lag up majorly on the ground).

The analogy of startup is incredibly flawed because the principle gets exponentially less relevant the smaller the difference is. Having a couple of frames slower isn't much of a loss when you consider the benefits the moves have in return.

Snake is a good example. Snake's shield options are actually relatively slow compared to most, he doesn't have an upB or quick aerials to cancel his shield, his shield grab is a couple of frames slower, and his tilts, while quick, aren't exactly spectacular from a purely framewise perspective; because of a tilt or jab's inability to be jump canceled to eliminate shield drop lag, you have to drop the shield then punish. But the range and reward of these tilts is what makes them so ridiculously powerful out of shield, they cover almost any punish this side of Smash Bros. and if you dodge, guess what? ftilt will still get you because of that two fold effect. Anyone can tell you that snake's implied pressure makes it risky to fight him close on the ground, even with quicker characters like Falco, Diddy, and MK, a Snake up close shielding is fairly intimidating. ICs are another example of a relatively slow but surprisingly strong character, although it's not because of move properties as it is that their tools and CG are really, really powerful.

My opinion is that Lucario has the advantage even when he has to approach, Lucario's aggro game is actually pretty decent (Trela continues to push this point across). Zelda once again only has comparable footing if she's not in a bad position, and overall, I think Zelda is much more prone to being in that position over Lucario, who at least has some tools to challenge juggles, edgeguards, etc.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm not sure, what's the frame advantage of FF nair to get that particular angle to usmash?

What Aero is talking about is some follows up that Zelda gets from her nair (unless I'm mistaken).

Also, dair is usef for more than just directly challenging stuff, lucarios will often stall right above where a hitbox they think is going to be and either wait to punish, or if it's too big, just use the readjustment of space to get out of the way. We do this to help bait D3 utilt, usmash punishes, etc. to help our landing since we're so floaty and prone to getting hit otherwise It happens a lot when I play Marth or MK and they want to utilt or SH uair, and I want to come back down on them and punish the whiff.

I think your dair will be out usmash depending on how it's timed. But much like everything else depending on spacing time and reaction etc etc etc blah blah blah.

@AL: Really? I find it hard to really take you seriously, this stuff is borderline trolling. Jab is not a spacer esp. in front lol, most characters can't safely challenge a shield in front w/ a jab/tilt, it's a poke, it's usually used when we get a crossup going on. Your dtilt is not disjointed, sorry to break it to you, neither does it have transcendence at the tip.

I know the dtilt isn't disjointed I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that there's good range and good speed on the move. If we're in range of our dtilt it becomes a good spacing tool because of the start up and the follow ups. When we can get dtilt > dsamsh fsmash dtilt or LK it changes things drastically. I asked if Lucario's used their jab as a spacing tool because the range was brought up and it was also brought up as being almost tilt worthy. Zelda's jab can be used to space and is extremely safe on shield and it can also be used to discourage SH's (as long as the opponent doesn't have disjointed hit boxes and stuff).



Let's compare the hitbox, shall we?

Spoiler

For the record, no significant disjoint to speak of

Aura disjoints are partially on the 2nd hitbubble onward, he kinda curls the paw a bit for some odd reason.

I'm not sure what you're attempting to do by posting those pictures. If you can explain a bit then cool.

Now mind you, it's a bit of an unfair comparison since the lucario pic is a bit more zoomed, but it still stands to prove a point. Our jab also has some minor frame advantage (like Zelda's dtilt at certain percents iirc), although it's only by a couple of frames. Our dtilt compared to yours is also better disjoint-wise, and on zelda is a pretty safe poke/spacer.

Zelda's dtilt gets +5 which allows her to follow up with another dtilt or a dsmash (frame 4). If you trip or we get a pop up there's more follow ups utilt USmash dsmash fsmash. So from our fastest ground move which causes tripping we can land potential kill moves. So what you get from your jab ? another jab ? a grab ? There's a pretty big difference.

Spoiler

Your fsmash:

Notice that large lean-in (not to mention this is the second hitbox, the initial is significantly smaller)
Our fsmash:

I know your fsmash out ranges Zelda's i'm not suggesting differently. What I am suggesting is that if I'm in my fsmash range and we both do fsmash mines will come out faster and beat your move. So it's up to the Zelda to be able to position herself properly and stay in her fsmash range (which Zelda's should be doing). Then the range on your fsmash isn't a problem. However, if I do misspace my fsmash I will eat yours.

It's once again disjointed, still catches ADs like a pro (lingering hitboxes allow it to trap dodges, without the disadvantage of being SDIable), has really low endlag, and since it isn't multihit, it's gonna win big time in an exchange (not to mention the tipper is actually pretty powerful, at the percent Marth's tipper fsmash kills lucario, lucario's tipper fsmash kills him as well. Oh, and I forgot, the farthest hitbubble is transcendent.

If we're talking about moves to catch AD's then I'll normally revert to utilt with Zelda and that kills like a pro. I'll also go for usmash but like you said Zelda's moves can be SDI. However, the last hit of Fsmash can't but I don't believe it's possible to catch air dodges with fsmash that's seems highly unlikely.

Don't get me started on the aerials. One set actually has more function besides reading punishes and gtfo, not to mention they all catch the dodge option really well, and of course those lovely disjoints (half of them also don't lag up majorly on the ground).

What I lack in disjoints I attempt to make up for with the speed of my aerials. As long as my aerials are faster than yours I'll be able to be your aerials (spacing dependent of course).

The analogy of startup is incredibly flawed because the principle gets exponentially less relevant the smaller the difference is. Having a couple of frames slower isn't much of a loss when you consider the benefits the moves have in return.

Most of lucario's aerials are really good a low percentages where they string together but once the percentages get high that's no longer the case. So at low percentages you can string off your aerials but that will becomes meaningless later in the game.

Snake is a good example. Snake's shield options are actually relatively slow compared to most, he doesn't have an upB or quick aerials to cancel his shield, his shield grab is a couple of frames slower, and his tilts, while quick, aren't exactly spectacular from a purely framewise perspective; because of a tilt or jab's inability to be jump canceled to eliminate shield drop lag, you have to drop the shield then punish. But the range and reward of these tilts is what makes them so ridiculously powerful out of shield, they cover almost any punish this side of Smash Bros. and if you dodge, guess what? ftilt will still get you because of that two fold effect. Anyone can tell you that snake's implied pressure makes it risky to fight him close on the ground, even with quicker characters like Falco, Diddy, and MK, a Snake up close shielding is fairly intimidating. ICs are another example of a relatively slow but surprisingly strong character, although it's not because of move properties as it is that their tools and CG are really, really powerful.

But you're missing one very important thing about snake which makes his shield very scary and that's the ability for him to drop a nade. So you can't normally attack his shield with out blowing the nade up. Once you factor in the nade it becomes really dangerous to attempt to attack snake's shield. IDK about you but I believe a 4 frame tilt that does more damage than a smash attack is broken.

My opinion is that Lucario has the advantage even when he has to approach, Lucario's aggro game is actually pretty decent (Trela continues to push this point across). Zelda once again only has comparable footing if she's not in a bad position, and overall, I think Zelda is much more prone to being in that position over Lucario, who at least has some tools to challenge juggles, edgeguards, etc.

I'm pretty sure 95% of the cast have advantages over Zelda when it comes to approaching that's not what she's about. But the thing we have to ask is how does Lucario put Zelda in those bad positions and whether or not Zelda' can do anything about his attempts to put her in those bad positions.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Got in here because of the ZSS/Zelda conversation.

I'd just like to point out that "if you are in range ... then we can space" isn't a great argument. If ZSS's dtilt outranges yours, then she has the advantage, spacing wise. If Lucario has a better fsmash, then he has the advantage, spacing wise. It's this kind of odd logic that leads people to respond with the question "why would I get in your range when I don't have to?".

 

[Fuujin]

Got in here because of the ZSS/Zelda conversation.

I'd just like to point out that "if you are in range ... then we can space" isn't a great argument. If ZSS's dtilt outranges yours, then she has the advantage, spacing wise. If Lucario has a better fsmash, then he has the advantage, spacing wise. It's this kind of odd logic that leads people to respond with the question "why would I get in your range when I don't have to?".

Zelda mains don't understand the concept of "the opponent doesn't have to approach".

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm not sure, what's the frame advantage of FF nair to get that particular angle to usmash?

Using nair and landing during the first two hitboxes gives us about 32 frames advantage.

The second two hitboxes gives us 28.

It's actually funny since someone like Zelda has a true combo into her up-smash.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Got in here because of the ZSS/Zelda conversation.

I'd just like to point out that "if you are in range ... then we can space" isn't a great argument. If ZSS's dtilt outranges yours, then she has the advantage, spacing wise. If Lucario has a better fsmash, then he has the advantage, spacing wise. It's this kind of odd logic that leads people to respond with the question "why would I get in your range when I don't have to?".

I hear what you're spacing but at different distance a character will have an advantage and I'm not arguing that. What I'm suggesting is when Zelda is at her optimal dtilt range what options does a character then have. If I play an entire match at my opponents optimal range thne of course I'm going to lose. However, it's up to me the person with the controller but it's up to me to space properly and if I do I'd like to know what options does each person have.

Your type of logic leads to Marth having 6/4 advantages on all the characters he out ranges =/. Even if x move out ranges y move. We have to look at our we're positioned and the start up of each move. If I'm in the range of my moves and it beats your's out then I'm at the advantage. I'd really like to get pest X move out ranges Y move therefore you at a disadvantage. Both players should be focusing on spacing and get into their ranges and then let's discuss what options a characters has when my character isn't always in the worst possible position.

 

[Alacion]

Because of how wordy this thread is starting to get, I'll just post this...

[COLLAPSE="Lol"]I'm always glad to have the opportunity to speak openly, without fear of Zelda Boards twisting my words in a backwards attempt to cause one-sided actions to be entered into historical fact. Let's get down to brass tacks: Its most steadfast claim is that ebola, AIDS, mad-cow disease, and the hantavirus were intentionally bioengineered by sullen tatterdemalions for the purpose of population reduction. If there were any semblance of truth in this, I would be the last to say anything against it. As it stands, however, snotty deconstructionism is merely a symptom of the disease called "Zelda Boards-ism". As long as I live, I will be shouting this truth from rooftops and doing everything I can to find the common ground that enables others to free people from the fetters of antipluralism's poisonous embrace. As amazing as it seems, given the amount of misinformation that Zelda Boards is circulating, I must undoubtedly point out that I admit I have a tendency to become a bit insensitive whenever I rebuke it for trying to stab us in the back. While I am desirous of mending this tiny personality flaw, Zelda Boards claims that the Eleventh Commandment is, "Thou shalt perpetuate the myth that anyone who dares to name and shame its expositors for their contumacious acts of corporatism can expect to suffer hair loss and tooth decay as a result". I respond that it's the quintessential malignant, confused malingerer.

All right, enough of that. Now let's talk about something else. Let's talk about how Zelda Boards proclaims at every opportunity that it'd never contaminate or cut off our cities' water supply. The organization doth protest too much, methinks. I'll repeat what I've already said: I myself have to wonder where Zelda Boards got the idea that it is my view that drug money is being used to pay for the construction of huge underground cities intended to house both humans and aliens who serve a secret, transnational shadow government. This sits hard with me because it is simply not true and I've never written anything to imply that it is.

Zelda Boards really shouldn't encourage the acceptance of scapegoating and demonization. That's just common sense. Of course, the people who appreciate its declamations are those who eagerly root up common sense, prominently hold it out, and decry it as poison with astonishing alacrity. Throughout human history, what I call misinformed layabouts have always been hate-filled. So it should come as no surprise that it is not uncommon for Zelda Boards to victimize the innocent, penalize the victim for making any effort to defend himself, and then paint the whole shameless affair as some great benefit to humanity. If Zelda Boards has any spinoffs, I recommend that it teach them about love, trust, cooperation, community, reason, negotiation, and compromise rather than violence, paranoia, and fear.

It may not be within the scope of this letter to encourage people to give Zelda Boards a rhadamanthine warning not to doctor evidence and classification systems and make childish generalizations to support insidious, preconceived views, but I would like to mention that if it opened its eyes, it'd realize that it exhibits a reckless disregard for the safety of others. The underlying message is that anyone who has spent much time wading through the pious, obscurantist, jargon-filled cant that now passes for "advanced" thought in the humanities already knows that some time ago I conducted a series of in-depth interviews in which I discovered that most respondents unmistakably don't want Zelda Boards to pervert human instincts by suppressing natural, feral constraints and encouraging abnormal patterns of behavior. What may be news, however, is that Zelda Boards's communications should be labeled like a pack of cigarettes. I'm thinking of something along the lines of, "Warning: It has been determined that Zelda Boards's op-ed pieces are intended to desecrate personal religious objects."

Sick, sleazy pikers, almost by definition, undermine serious institutional and economic analyses and replace them with a diverting soap opera of oleaginous conspiracies. To say anything else would be a lie. There isn't a man, woman, or child alive today who thinks that Zelda Boards is a model organization, so let's toss out that ridiculous argument of Zelda Boards's from the get-go. The point is that most people aren't willing to swallow what Zelda Boards is serving up: a triple scoop of warped sprinkled with warped and topped off with warm warped sauce. Zelda Boards and its drones are on a recruiting campaign, trying to convince everyone they meet to participate in promoting yellow-bellied ideologies such as mandarinism. Don't join that polity; instead, remember the scriptures: "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." Almost everyone will wholeheartedly agree that the odds are more than ten to one that Zelda Boards should not be allowed to operate heavy machinery, specifically, its ego, but Zelda Boards's thralls are unified under a common goal. That goal is to teach our children a version of history that is not only skewed, distorted, and wrong but dangerously so.

Easy as it may seem to help you reflect and reexamine your views on Zelda Boards, it is far more difficult to disseminate as widely as possible all of the information we have regarding Zelda Boards's disingenuous, counterproductive warnings. I would rail on at length about Zelda Boards's logorrheic conjectures but will leave that for another time. Suffice it to say that I myself feel no more personal hatred for Zelda Boards than I might feel for a herd of wild animals or a cluster of poisonous reptiles. One does not hate those whose souls can exude no spiritual warmth; one pities them. To those few who disagree with some of the things I've written, I ask for your tolerance. Zelda Boards insists that it knows the "right" way to read Plato, Maimonides, and Machiavelli. How can it be so blind? Very easily. Basically, Zelda Boards certainly isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Yes, I could add that you cannot suppose that it would have the slightest compunction about ordering its protégés to fabricate all sorts of morally questionable, ad hoc rules and regulations, but I wanted to keep my message simple and direct. I didn't want to distract you from the main thrust of my message, which is that whenever there's an argument about Zelda Boards's devotion to principles and to freedom, all one has to do is point out that nations that tolerate fragmenting the nation into politically disharmonious units will perish certainly and perish forever. That should settle the argument pretty quickly.

It's definitely time to put up or shut up. I know because I have experienced that personally. Whether or not you realize this, Zelda Boards says it's going to shove us towards an absolute state of vassalage before the year is over. Is it out of its Pecksniffian mind? The answer is fairly obvious when you consider that if it truly wanted to be helpful, Zelda Boards wouldn't put the prisoners in charge of running the prison.

Zelda Boards can blame me for the influx of stuck-up cretins if it makes it feel better but it won't help its cause any. Zelda Boards's quixotic tractates often resemble an inverted fairy tale in that the triumph of innocence comes at the start and the ugly sisters of adversarialism and scapegoatism enter on stage in triumph for the final curtain. May I assume that anyone who wants to arouse the hostility and excite the cupidity of disaffected, crime-stained derelicts is either (a) destructive or (b) a voluble Hun? If so, then I have news for Zelda Boards: I am deliberately using colorful language in this letter. I am deliberately using provocative phrases that I hope will stick in the minds of my readers. I do ensure, however, that my words are always appropriate and accurate and clearly explain how Zelda Boards has produced a large number of nettlesome, coldhearted monographs. I'm sorry that I can't give each of these the angry retort that it deserves, but I can say that I've known some prima donnas who were impressively unmannerly. However, Zelda Boards is quasi-abysmal and that trumps abysmal every time.

Zelda Boards maintains that either it is known for its sound judgment, unerring foresight, and sagacious adaptation of means to ends or that people find its unrelenting, over-the-top hostility rather refreshing. Zelda Boards denies any other possibility. Zelda Boards parrots whatever ideas are fashionable at the moment. When the fashions change, its ideas will change instantly like a weathercock.

Some will say I exaggerate, but actually I'm being quite lenient. I didn't mention, for example, that I'll tell you what we need to do about all the craziness Zelda Boards is mongering. We need to shelter initially unpopular truths from suppression, enabling them to ultimately win out through competition in the marketplace of ideas. If you will pardon me for mentioning it, one could truthfully say that evidence exists to suggest that Zelda Boards's shenanigans celebrate deception, diversion, and fashion. But saying that would miss the real point, which is that I wonder what would happen if it really did provide the pretext for police-state measures. There's a spooky thought. In closing, although this letter has been lengthy there are still a large number of comments about Zelda Boards that I have had to leave aside. I didn't even begin to mention, for instance, that anyone who values liberty should be seriously concerned about Zelda Boards's stiff-necked sophistries. Anyway, the important point is that Zelda Boards's chums will carry the product of its work into the future, even after Zelda Boards itself is gone.[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Fuujin]

Because of how wordy this thread is starting to get, I'll just post this...

[COLLAPSE="Lol"]I'm always glad to have the opportunity to speak openly, without fear of Zelda Boards twisting my words in a backwards attempt to cause one-sided actions to be entered into historical fact. Let's get down to brass tacks: Its most steadfast claim is that ebola, AIDS, mad-cow disease, and the hantavirus were intentionally bioengineered by sullen tatterdemalions for the purpose of population reduction. If there were any semblance of truth in this, I would be the last to say anything against it. As it stands, however, snotty deconstructionism is merely a symptom of the disease called "Zelda Boards-ism". As long as I live, I will be shouting this truth from rooftops and doing everything I can to find the common ground that enables others to free people from the fetters of antipluralism's poisonous embrace. As amazing as it seems, given the amount of misinformation that Zelda Boards is circulating, I must undoubtedly point out that I admit I have a tendency to become a bit insensitive whenever I rebuke it for trying to stab us in the back. While I am desirous of mending this tiny personality flaw, Zelda Boards claims that the Eleventh Commandment is, "Thou shalt perpetuate the myth that anyone who dares to name and shame its expositors for their contumacious acts of corporatism can expect to suffer hair loss and tooth decay as a result". I respond that it's the quintessential malignant, confused malingerer.

All right, enough of that. Now let's talk about something else. Let's talk about how Zelda Boards proclaims at every opportunity that it'd never contaminate or cut off our cities' water supply. The organization doth protest too much, methinks. I'll repeat what I've already said: I myself have to wonder where Zelda Boards got the idea that it is my view that drug money is being used to pay for the construction of huge underground cities intended to house both humans and aliens who serve a secret, transnational shadow government. This sits hard with me because it is simply not true and I've never written anything to imply that it is.

Zelda Boards really shouldn't encourage the acceptance of scapegoating and demonization. That's just common sense. Of course, the people who appreciate its declamations are those who eagerly root up common sense, prominently hold it out, and decry it as poison with astonishing alacrity. Throughout human history, what I call misinformed layabouts have always been hate-filled. So it should come as no surprise that it is not uncommon for Zelda Boards to victimize the innocent, penalize the victim for making any effort to defend himself, and then paint the whole shameless affair as some great benefit to humanity. If Zelda Boards has any spinoffs, I recommend that it teach them about love, trust, cooperation, community, reason, negotiation, and compromise rather than violence, paranoia, and fear.

It may not be within the scope of this letter to encourage people to give Zelda Boards a rhadamanthine warning not to doctor evidence and classification systems and make childish generalizations to support insidious, preconceived views, but I would like to mention that if it opened its eyes, it'd realize that it exhibits a reckless disregard for the safety of others. The underlying message is that anyone who has spent much time wading through the pious, obscurantist, jargon-filled cant that now passes for "advanced" thought in the humanities already knows that some time ago I conducted a series of in-depth interviews in which I discovered that most respondents unmistakably don't want Zelda Boards to pervert human instincts by suppressing natural, feral constraints and encouraging abnormal patterns of behavior. What may be news, however, is that Zelda Boards's communications should be labeled like a pack of cigarettes. I'm thinking of something along the lines of, "Warning: It has been determined that Zelda Boards's op-ed pieces are intended to desecrate personal religious objects."

Sick, sleazy pikers, almost by definition, undermine serious institutional and economic analyses and replace them with a diverting soap opera of oleaginous conspiracies. To say anything else would be a lie. There isn't a man, woman, or child alive today who thinks that Zelda Boards is a model organization, so let's toss out that ridiculous argument of Zelda Boards's from the get-go. The point is that most people aren't willing to swallow what Zelda Boards is serving up: a triple scoop of warped sprinkled with warped and topped off with warm warped sauce. Zelda Boards and its drones are on a recruiting campaign, trying to convince everyone they meet to participate in promoting yellow-bellied ideologies such as mandarinism. Don't join that polity; instead, remember the scriptures: "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." Almost everyone will wholeheartedly agree that the odds are more than ten to one that Zelda Boards should not be allowed to operate heavy machinery, specifically, its ego, but Zelda Boards's thralls are unified under a common goal. That goal is to teach our children a version of history that is not only skewed, distorted, and wrong but dangerously so.

Easy as it may seem to help you reflect and reexamine your views on Zelda Boards, it is far more difficult to disseminate as widely as possible all of the information we have regarding Zelda Boards's disingenuous, counterproductive warnings. I would rail on at length about Zelda Boards's logorrheic conjectures but will leave that for another time. Suffice it to say that I myself feel no more personal hatred for Zelda Boards than I might feel for a herd of wild animals or a cluster of poisonous reptiles. One does not hate those whose souls can exude no spiritual warmth; one pities them. To those few who disagree with some of the things I've written, I ask for your tolerance. Zelda Boards insists that it knows the "right" way to read Plato, Maimonides, and Machiavelli. How can it be so blind? Very easily. Basically, Zelda Boards certainly isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Yes, I could add that you cannot suppose that it would have the slightest compunction about ordering its protégés to fabricate all sorts of morally questionable, ad hoc rules and regulations, but I wanted to keep my message simple and direct. I didn't want to distract you from the main thrust of my message, which is that whenever there's an argument about Zelda Boards's devotion to principles and to freedom, all one has to do is point out that nations that tolerate fragmenting the nation into politically disharmonious units will perish certainly and perish forever. That should settle the argument pretty quickly.

It's definitely time to put up or shut up. I know because I have experienced that personally. Whether or not you realize this, Zelda Boards says it's going to shove us towards an absolute state of vassalage before the year is over. Is it out of its Pecksniffian mind? The answer is fairly obvious when you consider that if it truly wanted to be helpful, Zelda Boards wouldn't put the prisoners in charge of running the prison.

Zelda Boards can blame me for the influx of stuck-up cretins if it makes it feel better but it won't help its cause any. Zelda Boards's quixotic tractates often resemble an inverted fairy tale in that the triumph of innocence comes at the start and the ugly sisters of adversarialism and scapegoatism enter on stage in triumph for the final curtain. May I assume that anyone who wants to arouse the hostility and excite the cupidity of disaffected, crime-stained derelicts is either (a) destructive or (b) a voluble Hun? If so, then I have news for Zelda Boards: I am deliberately using colorful language in this letter. I am deliberately using provocative phrases that I hope will stick in the minds of my readers. I do ensure, however, that my words are always appropriate and accurate and clearly explain how Zelda Boards has produced a large number of nettlesome, coldhearted monographs. I'm sorry that I can't give each of these the angry retort that it deserves, but I can say that I've known some prima donnas who were impressively unmannerly. However, Zelda Boards is quasi-abysmal and that trumps abysmal every time.

Zelda Boards maintains that either it is known for its sound judgment, unerring foresight, and sagacious adaptation of means to ends or that people find its unrelenting, over-the-top hostility rather refreshing. Zelda Boards denies any other possibility. Zelda Boards parrots whatever ideas are fashionable at the moment. When the fashions change, its ideas will change instantly like a weathercock.

Some will say I exaggerate, but actually I'm being quite lenient. I didn't mention, for example, that I'll tell you what we need to do about all the craziness Zelda Boards is mongering. We need to shelter initially unpopular truths from suppression, enabling them to ultimately win out through competition in the marketplace of ideas. If you will pardon me for mentioning it, one could truthfully say that evidence exists to suggest that Zelda Boards's shenanigans celebrate deception, diversion, and fashion. But saying that would miss the real point, which is that I wonder what would happen if it really did provide the pretext for police-state measures. There's a spooky thought. In closing, although this letter has been lengthy there are still a large number of comments about Zelda Boards that I have had to leave aside. I didn't even begin to mention, for instance, that anyone who values liberty should be seriously concerned about Zelda Boards's stiff-necked sophistries. Anyway, the important point is that Zelda Boards's chums will carry the product of its work into the future, even after Zelda Boards itself is gone.[/COLLAPSE]

Condensed version plz.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Condensed version plz.

Seriously what the ****.

 

[Alacion]

Here's the tl;dr lol

http://www.pakin.org/complaint/

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

his attacks are safer, he's harder to kill, his air game runs circles around ours, we have no safe approaches, he outcamps us . . .

so... let's make that 60:40 lucario.

 

[Fluttershy]

-_-
Game and watch is up

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

-1337 GW top tier Zelda low tier. Why are you even playing Zelda or discussing her match ups press down b and go shiek.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if memory serves, sheik doesnt exactly have a favourable matchup against G&W either . . . but it's not as bad as Zelda's is! I swear, behind olimar and olimar alone, a good game and watch is about zelda's worst enemy. His aerial game is practically invincible vs ours and his poking is very safe. We can't really outcamp him in any way and he hits very hard with enough moves to really bend us over a barrel and show us the 50 states.

not sure about EXACT numbers, but I'd probably say 25:75 :/

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Alright, first I'm gonna put on my flame shield.

I honestly feel like this MU is nowhere near as hard as it used to be and nowhere near a hard counter. Both characters suffer from the same thing and that's being predictable. The only thing is G&W has better tools and better kill potential. All we really have to do is play smart and very carefully. Aside from most of his aerials, we can combat his range and we can punish his aerials severely. Turtle can get kicked with proper SDI, and can be beat with Ftilt. Fair can get beat with a PS, basically treat it as a slower Marth Fair. PS and then hurt bad. Dair can get beat with our Uair and even a well placed Usmash. Nair and Uair are the more problematic things. Granted, the ideas I presented can be baited, but I honestly feel like this game is basically a baiting game.

Again, ready for flames from everybody but dammit.....it's a PERSONAL MU thread so I personally feel like it's a -2. In between -2 and -3 at absolute worst.

Let the games begin.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

G&W is crap.

SDI out of turtle and punish it.

SDI out of nair, but it's a bit trickier to punish.

Up smash easily beats key.

Get up close and bait him into using the bucket with random Din's Fire at mid range.

All his smashes are incredibly slow, his grab is lol, his rolldodges are lol.

Just don't get grabbed > dthrow'd > dsmashed.

I don't think this match up is anywhere near as bad as we thought it was. Especially considering before we were all like "OH NOEZ TURTLE RAYPESZ US", when with proper SDI, I rarely get hit more than twice by the turtle.

I have pretty crazy SDI though.

Watch out for psuedo chain grabs.

Watch out for random edge tricks. G&W can plank really well, and on stages like Yoshi's, he has this weird jump glitch on the edge of the right ledge that lets him get up laglessly and do anything he wants.

Did I mention don't get hit by the smash attacks?

Yeah, don't get hit by them. They hurt.

-2 imo