Zelda's Anti-Air Game: Because She Doesn't Have an Air Game

[powuh_of_PIE]

I posted this in the Aerial Edgeguarding thread, but thought it merited its own discussion. Zelda has very good anti-air options, but instead of WoT'ing you guys like I usually do ( =D ) I thought I'd open this up to the Zelda boards so we can thresh this out as a community.

Reposted so you can see why this thread is needed:

I always thought of it like this: Zelda doesn't have an air game.

I know, it sounds crazy, but hear me out.

Her specials are not useful in the air in and of themselves: FW is never an aerial attack, only for recovery and landing change-ups. Din's is a projectile, but a) it's too slow to use repeatedly at what I'd call standard "aerial game range", and b) the freefall animation afterwards sucks. You can annoy recovering characters with it, and I actually think this is what Zelda should be doing while waiting for the opponent to come back from that barely DI'd Bair, but you can't just jump into the air and start combating onstage aerial opponents with it. NL is a GTFO move that applies to both characters and projectiles. Not really a good aerial option except for trying to get back on the ground. Transform doesn't count, because while it does give her an excellent aerial game it changes her into a different character to do it. As for aerials...

Her Dair is for situational gimps and NinjaLink, and her Uair, Fair and Bair should only hit once (perhaps twice) per stock. Zelda will be trying to set up into Uair/Fair/Bair from the ground, therefore they are more useful and better utilized when included in her ground game. Nair is the only thing she has somewhat resembling a useful "aerial attack": that is, something that can be used repeatedly and can consistently beat other aerials ala most characters' Bair. (Think about it: how many characters with any aerial game at all don't use their Bair? Answer: Fox) And even in this it falls short; Nair does have nice priority, but Zelda's aerial speed isn't enough to make up for its rather lackluster range. On stages with platforms it can be used well, otherwise her spacing game is so much better Zelda has no reason to close to that distance just to use Nair.

Zelda survives this lack of aerial ability (note: Uair/Fair/Bair all count as ground moves now) because she has the tools to defend against other characters in the air: Usmash beats almost every downward aerial in the game with proper timing and Fsmash beats almost every SH aerial in the game period. The exceptions to these rules (Marth, Ike, Lucario) do well against Zelda because they are these exceptions.

So while it's all well and good to talk about attacking characters while they are recovering, no one can really call it "edgeguarding". Dair kills everything when it hits and almost nothing when it doesn't, and so is less of a way of preventing recovery and more of a direct threat that requires either immense luck or some type of effort towards setting it up. (Yes, ok, sourspot Dair can ruin some characters at high percents in the right position when Zelda has time and I win the lottery and the planets are aligned with NinjaLink's left buttock.) Nair has gimped exactly once in recent recorded memory and perhaps another five times off record.

If we really want to talk about Zelda's options on a recovering character, we need to be thinking of what to do when they get back. Not if. When.

 

[Kataefi]

Problem is.... she can stop a lot of aerial approaches, but her anti-aerial moves cover little horizontal distance against a predominantly horizontal air game her opponent can use via weaving in and out and baiting and punishing. You really need to predict and read well before you react. Someone can bait you easily into usmashing prematurely and then punish.

I think this thread could turn into something where we can discuss each character and how to play against their airgame... for example we can uncover exactly what we can space against them to stop a certain move... such as what moves jab beats out, din's beats out, spaced Fsmash beats out, etc etc etc... and what we must be careful against. Almost like some kind of research into the disjoints of Zelda's anti-aerial options vs the disjoints of opponents' aerial options, and whether her disjoints decrease in effectiveness the more they are staled etc etc...

 

[MrEh]

I always thought of it like this: Zelda doesn't have an air game.

I think I've been saying that Zelda's air game sucks for the longest time. lololol


The only decent anti-air move that Zelda has is her Usmash, and that's good enough as it is. Against character's with aerial oriented playstyles, this can wreck them. However, any character that has long range or no need to approach Zelda can make this troublesome for you. Here's some input on some characters I'm familiar with.

Usmash can block a couple of his aerial approaches, but he has so many ways to crack Zelda's defense that it's not even funny. He doesn't even have to approach in the air anyway, since he can easily approach with tilts or smack you with any one of his BS moves.

Usmash stops his aerial approaches. However, this is useless since it's Snake. And he won't be approaching from the air. If he's approaching from the air, he's doing it wrong.

Usmash can stop a couple of his aerial approaches. Not that useful though, since Dedede will probably be approaching from the ground anyways.

Turtle>Zelda

Well spaced Fairs beat the Usmash.

Usmash beats nearly all of his aerials. Too bad Wario camps harder then Zelda does, and doesn't have to approach you in the slightest.

Usmash stops a lot of his aerials. However, Diddy has no need to approach from the air when he has banana tricksies anyway.

Don't try. He doesn't have to approach from the air when he can just grab you.

*thunderjolt* *thunderjolt* *thunderjolt*

Usmash stops a couple of his aerials, but he can just approach with tilts anyway.

Someone should check if Usmash can stop a well spaced Bair. I'm pretty sure his Zair wins though.

YOU'RE NOT READY YET! THE FIGHT IS ON!

She's so slow in the air that it's not even funny. Just Usmash her ANY TIME she's in the air and you'll win. Guaranteed.

Jigglypuff fail.


And of course, you can chase an aerial opponent, bait their air dodge, and Usmash to knock them in the air again. Zelda should be played somewhat like Bowser IMO. Stay grounded, and use your moveset (usmash, the occasional throw) to get your opponent aerial. After that, you can capitalize with your limited (yet essential) air game.

 

[sniperworm]

She's so slow in the air that it's not even funny. Just Usmash her ANY TIME she's in the air and you'll win. Guaranteed.

Can't Ivysaur just Bair through everything Zelda has? Also, why is there no input about Bowser...

 

[MrEh]

Can't Ivysaur just Bair through everything Zelda has?

Yeah, but that does like 4% and is a weird approach. I usually stay grounded with Ivysaur, but that's just how I play. XD

Also, why is there no input about Bowser...

LOLOLOLOLOL USMASH USMASH USMASH LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[KayLo!]

*thunderjolt* *thunderjolt* *thunderjolt*

Heeeyyyyy. ;-;

But, yeah, as far as Pika, usmash and fsmash stop pretty much every approach he has. One thing that might give you trouble is Pikastorming (SH'd lagless dairs) only because the angle it comes in on is kind of weird..... and iirc, it trades hits with usmash instead of flat out getting beat, which can mess up your spacing.

Pikachu can also duck under usmash, so he can bait one, duck, and dtilt > combo you if you fall for it (depending on your percentage).

Or bait Naryu's.

Or bait pretty much anything, because that's the only way he's going to get inside Zelda.

 

[sniperworm]

Heeeyyyyy. ;-;

lol, sorry that's probably my fault. His description sounds a lot like how I use Pikachu...

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Can't Ivysaur just Bair through everything Zelda has? Also, why is there no input about Bowser...

Ivysaur is really weird as a character. But Yes, Bair goes through Usmash, and a spaced Fair goes through Usmash since Ivysaur's Fair actually has incredible priority at the tip of the attack. Ivysaur's Dair, when used directly above, also beats Zelda's Usmash since it has a huge disjoint. Unfortunately, Ivysaur's Dair is pointless to use on a grounded opponent. -_-:

Ivysaur is generally not a character that requires to approach the enemy, like Zelda is, but she's weaker at it since Characters with fire-property projectiles are dangerous to the grass pokemon. However, Ivysaur can and will approach with Bair since Not only does it have crazy C-shaped range, but even though it's really weak and has low knockback, it can be chained together with a Ftilt since Ivysaur has almost no lag after using Bair.

 

[MrEh]

However, Ivysaur can and will approach with Bair since Not only does it have crazy C-shaped range, but even though it's really weak and has low knockback, it can be chained together with a Ftilt since Ivysaur has almost no lag after using Bair.

Bair--->Bullshit Seed

^^

 

[Canvasofgrey]

That's Nair to Bullet seed. XP

 

[MrEh]

That's Nair to Bullet seed. XP

Pff, Bullet Seed is so dumb it works from everything. lol

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Bullet Seed eats you all for breakfast. grawr! <3

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Actually Ivysaur goes like this:

Razorleafrazorleafrazorleafanythingbulletseedrazorleaffsmashedgeguardwithfsmash.

But some character approaches I´m familiar with:

U-smash stops everything if timed right except occasional Nairs. If he baits it Zelda´s going to get thunderstormed.
RAR bairs and fireballs are the best working of his approaches. Bair´s can hit below U-smashes hitbox and Mario tornado (Dair) can trade with it.
He´s Falcon.
U-smash completely stops his approaches, but he´s great at biting it with fast aerials.
He´s helpless above Zelda. From the side he can use rock smash and Fair. Fair rarely hit well, but rock smash can be dangerous.
Dair outranges U-smash 9 times of 10. He also can approach well with various aerials.

 

[goodkid]

Your right about her air game, I wouldn't say its non-existent, but it is limited. Nair pretty much beats airdodge, & the rest of her aerials have to be baited. The best thing you can do is predict what they may do once they reach the ground. If coming from the above ledge, a charged f-smash should work, but you have to find what works for you, Nayru is becoming more beastly each time I use it. Shorthop-Nayru = win, I think it shield pokes, but I'm not sure.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I agree that NL is great attack, but I still try to avoid using it too much. It becomes quite easy to predict fast and is highly punishable.

 

[MrEh]

NL is a bad attack. lol

 

[Canvasofgrey]

*Love Jumps*

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Besides the obvious Usmash, a lot of Zelda's anti-air options come from baiting an attack with empty SHAD and instant Dsmash/Dtilt/insert fast attack here upon landing. (At least for me. I don't know how many other Zeldas do this...) I usually go straight for Dsmash in this setup, very fast and comes out faster than most players react (4 frame Dsmash + 2 frames landing lag = 6 frames, most players react within 7 frames of an action) but perhaps you guys have other ideas? Anything better than Dsmash?

 

[MrEh]

I usually go straight for Dsmash in this setup, very fast and comes out faster than most players react (4 frame Dsmash + 2 frames landing lag = 6 frames, most players react within 7 frames of an action) but perhaps you guys have other ideas? Anything better than Dsmash?

Walk into a Dtilt. lol

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Ftilt works wonderfully against many aerial approaches.

 

[AzNfinesse]

Besides the obvious Usmash, a lot of Zelda's anti-air options come from baiting an attack with empty SHAD and instant Dsmash/Dtilt/insert fast attack here upon landing. (At least for me. I don't know how many other Zeldas do this...) I usually go straight for Dsmash in this setup, very fast and comes out faster than most players react (4 frame Dsmash + 2 frames landing lag = 6 frames, most players react within 7 frames of an action) but perhaps you guys have other ideas? Anything better than Dsmash?

dtilt comes out way faster than dsmash. this is probably a better way to get ur opponent in a dtilt lock if they're at high percentages and dtilt is fresh. i'm not exactly sure on the frames but i can say that dtilt>dsmash.

 

[Villi]

dsmash comes out 1 frame faster than dtilt.

 

[Kataefi]

Does dsmash's hitbox linger between both hits? Like the first hit is frame 4 and the second is frame 12... so does that imply that there are 8 frames where she can clash with another attack providing she gets the hitbox out in time.

Or if the hitbox is behind her and someone attacks her front then will she clank or get hit?

 

[KayLo!]

Does dsmash's hitbox linger between both hits? Like the first hit is frame 4 and the second is frame 12... so does that imply that there are 8 frames where she can clash with another attack providing she gets the hitbox out in time.

Or if the hitbox is behind her and someone attacks her front then will she clank or get hit?

*Ponder*

I think she'll just get hit since her hitbox will be completely behind her and not protecting her front at all.

 

[MrEh]

Ftilt works wonderfully against many aerial approaches.

Against someone like Falcon maybe. lol

 

[Ochobobo]

Yeah, whenever Zelda says "PERSONALLY, I PREFER THE AIR" then she just leaves a blind spot directly underneath her. Then Falco can Usmash her from underneath for stealing his line. Then he plays hackeysack with his gun while munching on the bread that some old ladies fed him in the park.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Against someone like Falcon maybe. lol

Not just Falcon but many others too. It can hit in an upward angle, so it often has a better direction of attack than F-smash for example. It also has a reasonable amount of priority.

 

[MrEh]

Not just Falcon but many others too. It can hit in an upward angle, so it often has a better direction of attack than F-smash for example. It also has a reasonable amount of priority.

That would be good if Zelda's ftilt had range, which it doesn't.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

It has more range than it looks like. It´s range is actually pretty good when used completely sideways. When directed upwards it loses a lot of it´s horizontal range, but can still hit many characters right through their aerials with proper timing.

 

[MrEh]

It has more range than it looks like. It´s range is actually pretty good when used completely sideways. When directed upwards it loses a lot of it´s horizontal range, but can still hit many characters right through their aerials with proper timing.

If it doesn't have enough range to hit MK or Marth out of their aerials, then it's not good enough. XD

 

[Rion]

If it doesn't have enough range to hit MK or Marth out of their aerials, then it's not good enough. XD

If only she was smart enough to use that bloody sword from Twilight Princess >_>

Just imagine most her attacks, but with a disjointed hitbox of a sword about the length of Marth's!

Come on Sakurai! If you're gonna give her moves, at least make them on -slightly- par with other characters ;; (Looking at you Ike's Ftilt, DK's Ftilt, etc etc..)

Honest to God, that's gotta be one of her biggest problems. Her range can be so iffy.

 

[L-T!]

D-Tilts => F-Tilt=> U-Smash ***** everything.

 

[Brinzy]

Wait, isn't Ftilt like... her second longest ranged attack?

If it's angled upward, is there a chance it could hit an MK's fair (assuming it's not retreating)? Because, for example, Zelda's fair loses out to MK's fair in range, but it is pretty close. I assume using a longer ranged attack means she could hit him, or at least trade hits.


Just a thought.

 

[MrEh]

If it's angled upward, is there a chance it could hit an MK's fair (assuming it's not retreating)?

No. Zelda's ftilt sucks.

If you want to do that, then use Bowser or Wario. They can do it.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

No. Zelda's ftilt sucks.

If you want to do that, then use Bowser or Wario. They can do it.

Or DK.

Should I put up a summary of her options on the OP or is there more to discuss

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Well you can collect the current options in there and leave this threat open in case something to still discuss shows up.

Edit: Special tidbit of info, just for you MrEh! If Marth attacks either with shieldbreaker or Fair and is just far enough to not quite hit Zelda, she can hit him with unangled F-tilt in his ending lag. I wouldn´t call a move that can do that useless, only situational.

 

[goodkid]

Dash attack OOS can punish Marth's aerials & if it misses @ least you are behind.

 

[MrEh]

Dash attack OOS can punish Marth's aerials & if it misses @ least you are behind.

Punishing well spaced Fairs is dumb.