Zelda Social Thread

[otheusrex]

You said the rest of the changelist other than fixes is "straight nerfs". I don't know how else you'd expect that to be interpreted other than "the rest of the items in question are nerfs", but it certainly didn't sound like "the telesnap nerf is more significant than the sum of the buffs" to me, which was where my post was coming from. TBH though, I feel the overall effect the telesnap change has on her capabilities is quite overstated. Not that the difference between having no vulnerable frame and 1 vulnerable frame isn't significant, but the situations where that 1 frame does matter and other options of getting onto the ledge and using/timing/maintaining ledge invincibility properly can't get the job done are extremely few.

I'd agree with that. I'm not the most flawless technical player and I manage to telesnap to the ledge enough to know that it's still viable with only a modest amount of swag. I've never really felt Zelda wonts for edge gaurding capability anyways.

The brawl kick animations were pretty sluggish to extend and pulled back right as they began hitting, while the melee kicks I based the new 3.6 animations on are snappier and more forceful (in addition to aesthetic stuff like pulling the dress back some to see she's actually doing a kick and not a dress smack). For example, instead of like (going off memory here) 4-5 frames windup on f-air followed by 4-3 frames extending the leg out there and hit it's now 6 frames windup and 2 extension. Then on the late hit frames the leg stays held out fully extended.

maybe I don't understand actually... if her legs are extended sooner before the hitboxes doesn't that mean her hurtboxes are closer to the opponent than they were before? which would mean that they are actually less safe than they were. The same thing goes for them being extended for longer afterwards too. Although, aesthetically these kicks are much better. Did you do the animations or did someone else?

If you miss the sweetspot when trying to actually kill with the d-air, you are connecting with the unchanged lower flub hitbox on the foot unless your aim was very far off. The upper flub is the one you get with low lcanceled d-airs on a grounded opponent, and has utility that works best when it doesn't cause knockdown, which the reduced KBG improves. Nontumble d-air combos directly into kick (among other things) if timed well and cannot be ASDIed down.

I trust what you're saying is true, but without digging too hard for it, Dairing an opponent offstage is noticeably worse now. i don't understand how, nor have I taken the time to figure out what's going on, but it's definitely worse, so take that as you will

Ledgehop crossup d-air flub -> retreating b-air them back offstage the way they came is afaik the optimal (and stylish to boot =P) punish on hogged recovery landing lag at the edge at mid percents. It's something I use on Marth/Sheik in melee, where it works up until around 70% when it begins to pop up and can then be DIed/ASDIed into the floor and teched (generally switching to b-throws at that point). That upper hitbox does +1 damage and +5 BKB from melee -> PM (the flubs are basically buffed normal melee hits. brawl flubs are even worse), but that also made it knockdown at around 55% or so. With the 3.6 KBG change that nontumble combo window for flub d-airs extends back up to 72ish

Here's where I think things need to be put into perspective a little better. It's cool that dair had/has a niche utility that's been recognize and now enhanced, but it simply isn't useful for Zelda so it doesn't matter. There's no reason I can think of where you would have an advantage going for a late hit dair on a grounded opponent that wouldn't have yielded better results than just going for another move. Same thing goes for the upair autocancel buff (although because of the size buff, i'm sure the spacing for upair to link both hits is better now, rather than worsened like dair) because while cool, it isn't something a smart player should ever attempt theoretically. It doesn't really hurt anything though to hide a few swag improvements where only skilled and cheeky players can access them, but at the same time this aren't real buffs in that they should be considered when weighing her comparative balance between builds.

Now, even if I'm wrong on that and there are some strange sort of reasons why going for a late hit dair on a grounded opponent (who isn't or you expect not to be shielding, at that), they still can't be common enough where the improvement to that utility makes any sort of difference, not really. If it did, then it would already be noticeable and you wouldn't have needed to explain it.

This isn't to say that that change matters though. It's not something I'm concerned at all about. But summing up, I guess I'd come to the same conclusion that Kaeldiar did that overall she was nerfed in a sense because the improvements were all just 'fixes' to things that should have worked that way anyways or microbuffs that actually obsolete

 

[Trollinguy]

I'm still going to say she was buffed because some of her worst match-ups should have gotten easier (Looking at Squirtle, even though this is a gut instinct. Marth is still going to make me cringe though. Hopefully these new tele-turn arounds help but only time will tell).

I'm hoping her buffs help her worst match-ups. If these new kick animations actually make it harder to get hit, then that might help against the disjointed hitboxes of foes like Marth and Ike.

Overall I feel characters were nerfed more then they were buffed, so coming out of this barely touched is actually a buff when looking at the full picture.

 

[Magus420]

With the kicks, I don't recall the exact positioning on the following but what I mean is it was something like: 5 frames without leg extended > leg 1/3 the way > leg 2/3 the way > Hitboxes. It is now something more like 6 frames > leg 1/2 way > Hitboxes. Yeah, the kick edits were done by myself, though the other new animations were not. IIRC b-air now goes from barely extended to hit in 1 frame, and used to be more like how f-air is currently I believe.

For d-air I find the longer combo window on the recovery punish loop situationally useful in some matchups (again, I'm fairly sure it's the optimal reliable punish for that, so not sure how you can state it isn't useful and doesn't matter), while the times I use d-air offstage hitting people with my upper body and that 10-15 damage difference from KBG would also be a factor is even less common. If you're certain you are hitting with her foot maybe it could be the MC mechanic changes?

 

[4tlas]

Well you should have done all the animation changes, because the lightning kicks are the best. I don't care for the new jab (its a momentum stuffer move, old animation just looked nonchalant in a badass way), and new Dins recall has her body twist super awkwardly and is too smooth. The old Dins animation had more force to make it clear she was calling it back.

 

[Kaeldiar]

You said the rest of the changelist other than fixes is "straight nerfs". I don't know how else you'd expect that to be interpreted other than "the rest of the items in question are nerfs", but it certainly didn't sound like "the telesnap nerf is more significant than the sum of the buffs" to me, which was where my post was coming from.

Yeah, sorry. Poorly worded on my part.

The brawl kick animations were pretty sluggish to extend and pulled back right as they began hitting, while the melee kicks I based the new 3.6 animations on are snappier and more forceful (in addition to aesthetic stuff like pulling the dress back some to see she's actually doing a kick and not a dress smack). For example, instead of like (going off memory here) 4-5 frames windup on f-air followed by 4-3 frames extending the leg out there and hit it's now 6 frames windup and 2 extension. Then on the late hit frames the leg stays held out fully extended.

If you miss the sweetspot when trying to actually kill with the d-air, you are connecting with the unchanged lower flub hitbox on the foot unless your aim was very far off. The upper flub is the one you get with low lcanceled d-airs on a grounded opponent, and has utility that works best when it doesn't cause knockdown, which the reduced KBG improves. Nontumble d-air combos directly into kick (among other things) if timed well and cannot be ASDIed down.

Ledgehop crossup d-air flub -> retreating b-air them back offstage the way they came is afaik the optimal (and stylish to boot =P) punish on hogged recovery landing lag at the edge at mid percents. It's something I use on Marth/Sheik in melee, where it works up until around 70% when it begins to pop up and can then be DIed/ASDIed into the floor and teched (generally switching to b-throws at that point). That upper hitbox does +1 damage and +5 BKB from melee -> PM (the flubs are basically buffed normal melee hits. brawl flubs are even worse), but that also made it knockdown at around 55% or so. With the 3.6 KBG change that nontumble combo window for flub d-airs extends back up to 72ish.

In PM she has sweetspot d-air and flub u-air from the ledge as well, but the former can be DIed out of range and plain sends too high around 50-60 or so, and the latter is easily ASDIed down whether it tumbles or not since it sends upward, so those are unreliable punishes once they're familiar with those options.

Thank you for all the info! I'll be experimenting with new sourspot d-air then...

 

[otheusrex]

With the kicks, I don't recall the exact positioning on the following but what I mean is it was something like: 5 frames without leg extended > leg 1/3 the way > leg 2/3 the way > Hitboxes. It is now something more like 6 frames > leg 1/2 way > Hitboxes. Yeah, the kick edits were done by myself, though the other new animations were not. IIRC b-air now goes from barely extended to hit in 1 frame, and used to be more like how f-air is currently I believe.

For d-air I find the longer combo window on the recovery punish loop situationally useful in some matchups (again, I'm fairly sure it's the optimal reliable punish for that, so not sure how you can state it isn't useful and doesn't matter), while the times I use d-air offstage hitting people with my upper body and that 10-15 damage difference from KBG would also be a factor is even less common. If you're certain you are hitting with her foot maybe it could be the MC mechanic changes?

I meant that it's not useful as in it's obsolete. Like, it yields a good result if used correctly, but one that is overshadowed by 1 or more moves in all situations as simply better options. Like I said before, even if I'm wrong and that technically there is 1 or two situations where the best option is to go for a weak dair on a grounded opponent, if it really mattered that much it would be more obvious by now. In the above example that you're describing for instance, it might be techincally the most optimal punish to tag on a little extra damage before landing a kick, but it's really not THAT much more optimal than just landing a kick in the first place and then edgegaurding if they aren't killed outright. Both of these requires reads, but considering that it's somewhat harder (and less safe) to successfully land the dair you're talking about compared to kicking them, it loses some of it's supposed 'optimability'. Risk has to be accounted for as well as reward when it comes to what the best punish is. Warlock punch was the perfect example cause yeah, technically if there was a situation where you know someone was going to be somewhere and you could space and time a warlock punch, it was the most optimal punish.

So to clarify, yes it's a buff. The benefit of this change (i think) outweighs the nerf offstage. But, I think it's a harmless change really. I really appreciate the detail in adding some swag and depth to her with this, but I'm concerned about the amount of weight this buff might be being given when trying to improve her capabilities.

 

[Magus420]

I think you're misunderstanding the situation I'm talking about. Typical edgehog -> punish the landing lag stuff. Say you hit Sheik offstage and they need to use up-b. You hold the ledge to force them to land on stage and then you punish the landing lag. No reading involved. If you simply kick you are sending her across the stage which isn't effective unless she's at high damage and will kill anyway.

Ledgehop d-air to b-air lets you kick her back the other way, usually putting her back in the same hog -> punish position again. B-throw, the typical alternative to sending her back off, doesn't have the power behind it to force an up-b landing again until later. D-air to b-air does more damage and has more KB to force another up-b landing sooner.

 

[otheusrex]

I think you're misunderstanding the situation I'm talking about. Typical edgehog -> punish the landing lag stuff. Say you hit Sheik offstage and they need to use up-b. You hold the ledge to force them to land on stage and then you punish the landing lag. No reading involved. If you simply kick you are sending her across the stage which isn't effective unless she's at high damage and will kill anyway.

Ledgehop d-air to b-air lets you kick her back the other way, usually putting her back in the same hog -> punish position again. B-throw, the typical alternative to sending her back off, doesn't have the power behind it to force an up-b landing again until later. D-air to b-air does more damage and has more KB to force another up-b landing sooner.

ok yeah I misunderstood.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Ledgehop d-air to b-air lets you kick her back the other way, usually putting her back in the same hog -> punish position again.

Okay, I'm kind of confused. I'm trying to recreate this punish but I don't know how you're getting the back air in. If you are hitting the opponent with the upper flub of down air and L-canceling it you can't jump to get a back air before they're out of hit stun. It pops them up at higher percents for a back air but not at lower percents like you were talking about. Am I doing it wrong? I can see it's new utility when punishing in platform tech chases and as a "jab" reset but I can't replicate what you're describing.

This is a pretty small and niche "buff" for the move, does it effect her in the grand scheme much? Why not make the sweet spot active for 3 frames like her other kicks? Why not make it come out slightly faster? Just my thoughts.

I really like this patch even though I miss the ease of telesnapping. The up air buff was a nice nod to auto cancelled up air as a tech option for Zelda.

 

[TimeSmash]

For a small humourous break:

 

[Magus420]

Okay, I'm kind of confused. I'm trying to recreate this punish but I don't know how you're getting the back air in. If you are hitting the opponent with the upper flub of down air and L-canceling it you can't jump to get a back air before they're out of hit stun. It pops them up at higher percents for a back air but not at lower percents like you were talking about. Am I doing it wrong? I can see it's new utility when punishing in platform tech chases and as a "jab" reset but I can't replicate what you're describing.

This is a pretty small and niche "buff" for the move, does it effect her in the grand scheme much? Why not make the sweet spot active for 3 frames like her other kicks? Why not make it come out slightly faster? Just my thoughts.

I really like this patch even though I miss the ease of telesnapping. The up air buff was a nice nod to auto cancelled up air as a tech option for Zelda.

Technically works at 38%+ (up to +10 advantage on hit, allowing 5 jump + 5 b-air), but good luck timing it under 45% or so. At 70% on Sheik it's up to +18 on hit. Maybe saying upper flub was confusing. Just do a low enough d-air so the sweetspot is then under the floor and misses. The upper flub hitbox which has priority over the lower one is what hits them when you hit with both.

http://gfycat.com/GrimyFondKiskadee


Making the sweetspot last the full duration probably wouldn't have as much of an effect as you're expecting. The sweetspot is fully inside of the flub hitbox on the foot, so if it doesn't connect on the first frame it'd be really unlikely to connect afterwards without the larger flub doing so first, unless their invincibility from something just happened to end then or they were moving really fast (and be unpredictable whether they do fully bypass the other hitbox). It's more similar to u-air sweetspot really, which does last the full duration of the explosion and is also fully inside the larger and weaker hitbox. If changing the speed of the move I'd maybe try a bit off the air endlag instead first, since to me that'd seem more useful in general.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Technically works at 38%+ (up to +10 advantage on hit, allowing 5 jump + 5 b-air), but good luck timing it under 45% or so. At 70% on Sheik it's up to +18 on hit. Maybe saying upper flub was confusing. Just do a low enough d-air so the sweetspot is then under the floor and misses. The upper flub hitbox which has priority over the lower one is what hits them when you hit with both.

http://gfycat.com/GrimyFondKiskadee

Making the sweetspot last the full duration probably wouldn't have as much of an effect as you're expecting. The sweetspot is fully inside of the flub hitbox on the foot, so if it doesn't connect on the first frame it'd be really unlikely to connect afterwards without the larger flub doing so first, unless their invincibility from something just happened to end then or they were moving really fast (and be unpredictable whether they do fully bypass the other hitbox). It's more similar to u-air sweetspot really, which does last the full duration of the explosion and is also fully inside the larger and weaker hitbox. If changing the speed of the move I'd maybe try a bit off the air endlag instead first, since to me that'd seem more useful in general.

I appreciate the gfy and the explanation, I understand now. You still have to worry about amsah teching and crouch cancelling but it's a good option for punishing laggy recoveries. Dair is just really slow compared to most character's and it's uses are extremely niche. I hadn't thought of removing some of the end lag but that's an interesting idea. Elf? Could we try it out?

Has the PMDT thought at all about lengthening her WD or improving her ground speed or aerial control? Just improved movement in general? I understand if you can't comment but I have to ask.

 

[Arcalyth]

Thoughts based on skimming while I wait for food.

First off I think Zelda is great in this version. Telecancel finally fills the teledash function as promised thanks to the fixes, and the added leniency to platforming with Farore's makes the move relevant in neutral again. Because of this I don't believe she needs any movement buffs. DD/WD to jab/ftilt are quite powerful zoning tools especially when combined with Nayrus and kick mixups, and when augmented by her powerful neutral with teledins (telecancel and detonate>Waveland variations).

I also don't see any nerfs outside of telesnap being gone but I haven't found it to be an issue because there are myriad other ways to get to (or otherwise cover) the ledge with ample time to secure an edgeguard. Examples include telecancel>RAR wavedash, dtilt>dsmash, and Din's fire. Everything else is a net win for Zelda.

I think Zelda players on the boards communicate an over-reliance/emphasis on her specials and don't give enough love to her normals or any active zoning theory. Jab and ftilt are bread and butter and I will defend that statement for as long as Zelda is relevant. One trot away is enough for a punish. She doesn't NEED a grotesque dash dance like Falcon or something lol.

Still wishing Nayrus always sent forward.

 

[otheusrex]

hadn't thought of removing some of the end lag but that's an interesting idea. Elf? Could we try it out?

OMG! yesterday was tuesday! I completely forgot.... By random coincidence this week's request was reducing endlag on everything, so you can definitely use it to test out d-air.
http://smashboards.com/threads/trif...the-tetraforce-is.395380/page-4#post-19602830

 

[Downdraft]

First off I think Zelda is great in this version.

Alright, where are the results? She is one of the more popular characters, so if she's great there should be evidence.

Because of this I don't believe she needs any movement buffs.

Depending on the stage, that's her only movement option to get in versus projectile camping, and DD/WD aren't great at getting past characters with disjoint. LC Nayru's is greatly punishable, and projectiles just bait it out when powershielding is the real answer. At mid range, how are you supposed to get close? The characters with disjoint or better projectiles have good options to cover the space between close and mid range. Farore's startup is risky. LC Nayru's is a bad option because a knowledgeable opponent would know to either shield or attack before the frame 9 hitbox. Lightning kicks aren't a great option either. WD/DD won't get you in versus a smart opponent at mid range. Neither cover much distance.

I think Zelda players on the boards communicate an over-reliance/emphasis on her specials and don't give enough love to her normals or any active zoning theory.

You speak as if you really don't understand pre-3.5 Zelda. She had strong specials, and they are what allowed her to be viable at a high level. Her specials have been filler ever since they were severely toned down. LC Nayru's is super unsafe. Nayru's Glide is inferior to Diamond Diving and Love Jumping. The reverse hitbox and loss of intangibility just make aerial Nayru's average when combined with the attacks missing hitboxes at the top and bottom of the diamond. Din's Fire lost a great amount of utility and takes far less thought to use.

Jab and ftilt are bread and butter and I will defend that statement for as long as Zelda is relevant.

Jab is not bread and butter. Jab is frame 11 and hits at an angle too low for guaranteed followups. F-tilt and U-smash are bread and butter, and both are DI'able to avoid followups. Most people just don't know how to DI either move, and that's good since those are her primary combo starters with the occasional U-tilt.

She doesn't NEED a grotesque dash dance like Falcon or something lol.

Link to where Zeldas were asking for that? We don't want drastic mobility increases that change the character. Her playstyle has been dramatically changed enough.

Still wishing Nayrus always sent forward.

I don't know what's shaping your views on the character, but I'm lead to believe that you haven't faced good competition if you think Zelda's in a good spot in 3.6 Beta. People claiming that Zelda is strong hurt just as much as those claiming she's OP and not fun to play against. Both types don't understand the true state of the character.

 

[otheusrex]

Thoughts based on skimming while I wait for food.

I think Zelda players on the boards communicate an over-reliance/emphasis on her specials and don't give enough love to her normals or any active zoning theory. Jab and ftilt are bread and butter and I will defend that statement for as long as Zelda is relevant. One trot away is enough for a punish. She doesn't NEED a grotesque dash dance like Falcon or something lol.

Still wishing Nayrus always sent forward.

I'll agree that Zelda players put a lot of emphasis on her specials but I think that's because you really do have to use them frequently and well to succeed with her.

What situations are you finding jab to be particularly useful for you?

Nayrus sending forward again would be really helpful, of course, but I'm speculating that it's something where people not liking it just outweighs ensuring its reliability for Zelda... to go on a complete tangent, I personally was never thrilled at the idea of needing to use what used to be a niche gtfo move as a combo bread and butter.

 

[Magus420]

I appreciate the gfy and the explanation, I understand now. You still have to worry about amsah teching and crouch cancelling but it's a good option for punishing laggy recoveries.

Haven't directly tested the PM cast's KB animations, but that combo should be unable to be DIed into the ground and be untechable by most characters due to the kick's high hitlag (and DI down on the d-air does nothing). After 10 frames of hitlag/being in the air your bottom collision updates to use your knee or whatever is lowest which is generally above floor height, so reaching the floor with DI/ASDI is much less likely. Even though CF's knee has a low angle of 32, if you try to DSDI tech it you miss the floor and just get really really horrible DI instead. Technically you can SDI at just the right angle after the collision updates but before hitlag ends to touch the floor again and then also DSDI, but it's not really worth attempting unless the hit is guaranteed to kill you otherwise so there's no harm in trying. You can try to SDI the d-air to get out of range of the b-air but that's it.

 

[Arcalyth]

@ Downdraft I'm on my phone so apologies for not being able to give a proper reply. I'll be attending Shatter 2 in Toledo this weekend and will be my first 3.6 tournament so I'll be able to refine my opinion then, but as far as I see she's just a better (i.e. her tools actually work as intended) 3.5 zelda. Basically my statements on FW will summarize. Her neutral is playable now lol.

@ otheusrex I started taking a new approach to Zelda recently. Some of it has trickled into my Sheik as well since I took some mentality from my (limited) Smash 4 play. Guaranteed followups don't seem as prevalent in that game so you just have to zone better to get your hits in. Two concepts that I've gained from other smashers: strong bad's "stagger game" (explained in his DK guide here on the boards) and a better understanding of how my attacks and movement claim space for me thanks to (Tafokints I think?) a MIOM guide on sheik's fair in neutral. When I boiled the concepts together I realized the value of a move like jab despite its lack of guaranteed followups (btw you can combo jab>ftilt on neutral or bad DI).

Basically how I think about it: trot forward, jab. The disjoint in front of you can't be approached because jab has really low hitlag (safe on shield!!), so that's active zoning. You have lots of options for what to do next depending on how much space you control and what your opponent does... for instance you can follow up with dash back>wavebounce nayru>dtilt (which is a silly example, but an example that might get you thinking). Try playing a zoning game focused around jab and (angled) ftilt for a while. You might feel what I'm saying.

Anyway I started testing punishes on difficult characters like squirtle in REGEN mode. Found some things that I want to test against Dirtboy next time I see him. If they work I'll have more evidence for my opinions. Most of why I think Zelda is great is from previous knowledge (I had my opinion about overreliance on specials since 2.5 or so and I've been playing since 2.1) combined with recent lab work. I really can't overstate the magnitude of the farore's changes.

I guess I should clarify. I think Farore's is BnB as well. Nayrus and Din's tend to get overused. Maybe not anymore though since Nayrus got nerfed a while back and Din's is more dynamic now. In fact I encourage using FW and Din's together; telecancel and b-reverse Din's fire tech yields very interesting, and useful! results.

@ Downdraft I'm not really trying to cross people up with DD/WD, just harass and zone out with jab/kick/etc. People tend to approach whiffed attacks. A smart opponent waits, but then you can harass with teleburn and Din's fire.

It doesn't matter if FW is her primary movement option because you can mix up so hard with it. It's her most powerful tool imo. LC Nayrus shouldn't be a primary option in neutral unless it's retreating (because it's not very safe, as you said). At mid range is exactly when you want to DD/WD into ftilt (huge range) or dash attack (the only two moves of hers that can clank). Both will set up combo options, and if your opponent penetrates your space you have powerful defensive options in the form of Nayrus, dsmash, dtilt, and OOS options.

Personally the only projectiles I struggle with are turnips and to some extent Mario fireballs. They WANT you to Nayrus. But you can weave them better now with telecancel. Dash attack can deal with clankable projectiles, or you can just LC Nayru to make them think twice.

In regards to Love jump vs love glide, I prefer glide as a combo break personally. You can get huge distance then take advantage of the land cancel to jab out some space. If they approach you have enough time to dash back >bair, otherwise you can get a reset. Love jump delayed an inevitable juggle and took away your double jump to boot. Diamond dive I agree was useful but can be replaced by aerial telecancel and/or love glide. I also agree that overall, aerial Nayrus is a pretty average move. I use it mostly as a movement/zoning utility with wavebounce and love glides, or as a reflector. Someone mentioned doing it off of platforms and I love it, upon my initial experimentation.

WHOLLY disagree with Din's taking little thought to play or having little utility. The more I play with it is the more I love it. You can do such amazing things with the detonation and orbit mechanics. I'll try to get video at Shatter so hopefully you can see everything I'm talking about (highest hopes for a tourney yet. I'm confident but anxious )

 

[otheusrex]

OK yeah, I was going to say that the only thing I can think Jab of being useful for where other moves are is as a bait since it has low ending lag. But in about every other situation/attribute I can think of, jab is the second best option and not the best. Ftilt clanks (although not as well as it might), has the same range, can be angled to catch opponents who'd duck under jab, yields better followups, is faster, and at the same range you'd use jab is almost as safe on shield. Or if you're talking about just something to get someone off you, nayrus is better because despite being very unsafe on shield, it's frame 4 invincibility, long lasting hits to beat out dodges, and comparable disjoint to jab that also covers behind her, make it quite good as a gtfo.

I don't want to be discouraging when you're excited about exploring lesser used moves of hers, but I'd love to see you show me how much of a BnB her jab is against Lordy , Blake, or Jawsome.

I mean, I think all of Zelda's moves CAN be used once in a while in the right situation, but that doesn't mean all her moves are good or worth using. Jab, dtilt, wavedash, are all kinda blah right now, and I really see no reason why Jab at least should be frame 11 and remain as it is. I mean, no other character has a jab that slow. and it's rewards don't really explain why it's THAT slow. It really seems like just a hold over from Nintendo's design for her to be kinda bad in some ways on purpose, but i feel we've really done away with that in PM, I mean look how they improved luigi's dash attack mainly just cause rather than it being a need for him. The next slowest jab is link's at frame 6 and he has ACTUAL disjoint on it because of his sword. It also reaches about as far as zelda's as well as being able to hit crouching opponents or in coming airborne ones. Why not just make her jab as is but frame 6? That would let do you all of what you mentioned above but a little more effectively and give you a reason to use it over the other moves you'd use in those similar situations.

 

[4tlas]

snip

I agree with pretty much all of what you've said here. I think most Zelda mains do not appreciate the niche uses for moves enough and rely too much on picking the best risk/reward rather than the correct option. As Isai said, the key to winning is "Don't get hit", and being smart with Jab and CC->dtilt is a great way to do that.

Of course, a good character wouldn't have to find those niche uses for moves that don't net huge unnecessary punishes. But the fact of the matter is that Zelda is a capable but not good character. And that is fine with me.

 

[noobftw]

I find I use mostly all of zelda's moves quite regularly. Jab is good in neutral if they are at a sizeable distance. It keeps space and low IASA frames help with frame traps or let it be safe. Although I find myself using ftilt to space and dtilt to keep neutral. I use jab kind of like a feeling out move to see how the other player will react.
The move I used the least was dair but now that I see that dair connects to bair I'll be glad to practice that and use it more.
Only real buffs I would like are to like din's and her general movement. Farther dashing or wavedash/waveland would be very helpful in punishing people and moving to take advantage of din's more.
If din's didn't go back when the opponent shield it or if it had more priority to clank with swords or just more prio. This would help her actually control the space where din's is out instead of relying on the opponent respecting you because they don't know. A lot of people I play now understand that din's is easily beat out as well as leaves zelda open and is easily DD shield stopped or just prioritied through witha nair or fair. My personal thing is that din's goes a set distance first. Which leaves her open. if it can just go in front of her that would be very helpful in creating your own space (which is could do in 3.0 days)
But these are just my ideas and they may be biased a lot xD.
Overall I'm happy with 3.6 (RIP telesnapping) and glad I saw that dair into bair :D.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Ftilt has the same range, can be angled to catch opponents who'd duck under jab, yields better followups, is faster, and at the same range you'd use jab is almost as safe on shield.

I don't think f-tilt is the go to option instead of jab, but I hear what you're saying. Jab's IASA frames are its real saving grace which make it better in neutral. Jab>buffered angled shield> WD OoS, jab>pivot up tilt, and jab>buffered shield drop make it a really safe move. I like it against floaties and fast fallers who I want to push away. I like it after LC Nayru's and after spirit fingers. F-tilt definitely has more combo ability but jab has more utility.

 

[Downdraft]

To those who have stood by Din's or jab since 3.5, watch this short clip.

Try pulling a combo like that off in 3.6. It won't work. Jab is easily DI'd and launches at too low of an angle for reliable followups. Notice how having 3 mines forced DK to either approach or commit to defusing mines rather than following his gameplan that revolves around charging punches then grabbing into setups for the punch. 3.6 Din's is far less effective at getting the opponent to stop their gameplan since the one mine is ridiculously easy to defuse and can't be reset until it has returned to Zelda. No good character is going to be forced to get in Zelda's face because of 3.6 Din's.

 

[otheusrex]

to be fair, that jab only worked on DK and it still kinda relied on bad or no DI, but it's just even harder to do that now. I don't see any reason that it needs to twice as slow as any other jab even if it has low endlag. Other jabs might have more endlag, but they also have jab combos that link into each other or can be delayed to throw people off and pressure shields. Now that I think of it, aren't most jabs safe on shield in different ways anyway? So I mean, yeah it has uses, but it still could be improved.

Ahhh 3.02 dins... you know, I really forget sometimes how great they were. 3.6 isn't bad by any means, and it's definitely improved a little from 3.5, but the mine really threatens surprisngly little space, and while it's cool the timed out explosions are bigger, you only get the small sized dins onstage which still don't threaten much. I think in general, 3.6 dins could use some more thinking through. I'm sure Magus is extremely hesistant to make them any better, but in my thinking, if there's a move that doesn't function how it's intended to be but can't be fixed because it does too much already, it's probably not a perfect conception anyways

 

[4tlas]

To those who have stood by Din's or jab since 3.5, watch this short clip.

Try pulling a combo like that off in 3.6. It won't work. Jab is easily DI'd and launches at too low of an angle for reliable followups. Notice how having 3 mines forced DK to either approach or commit to defusing mines rather than following his gameplan that revolves around charging punches then grabbing into setups for the punch. 3.6 Din's is far less effective at getting the opponent to stop their gameplan since the one mine is ridiculously easy to defuse and can't be reset until it has returned to Zelda. No good character is going to be forced to get in Zelda's face because of 3.6 Din's.

Are you trying to say that she should have such a combo? Or that the new versions are bad? Or that they are simply worse? Or that they aren't as cool?

3 mines led to the coolest stuff, but new Dins can do some cool stuff too. 3 mines also led to oppressively good cool stuff while new Din isn't abuse-able enough to do that. Old dins were easily clanked if you placed them far away, while everyone is afraid to clank new Dins because I explode it in their face. Old dins could be placed near Zelda to defend her, but new Dins can be placed quickly so she can almost always get something out on the field. Its different and maybe worse, but it is not bad. Just making my opponents afraid to clank it and always being able to spare the time to place one is amazing enough to make it not bad because it is always usable. Combined with teleport Zelda can approach camping opponents decently enough, which I think was PMDTs goal.

New jab is worse than old jab. It is still usable. It has never been used like jabs other characters have.

Could Zelda be buffed? Sure. Does she NEED it? Eh. Yeah she's low tier, but someone has to be. And I'd rather not have to hear all the ******** when they make her mid-tier-at-best like in 3.02.

 

[Downdraft]

Are you trying to say that she should have such a combo? Or that the new versions are bad? Or that they are simply worse? Or that they aren't as cool?

3 mines led to the coolest stuff, but new Dins can do some cool stuff too. 3 mines also led to oppressively good cool stuff while new Din isn't abuse-able enough to do that. Old dins were easily clanked if you placed them far away, while everyone is afraid to clank new Dins because I explode it in their face. Old dins could be placed near Zelda to defend her, but new Dins can be placed quickly so she can almost always get something out on the field. Its different and maybe worse, but it is not bad. Just making my opponents afraid to clank it and always being able to spare the time to place one is amazing enough to make it not bad because it is always usable. Combined with teleport Zelda can approach camping opponents decently enough, which I think was PMDTs goal.

New jab is worse than old jab. It is still usable. It has never been used like jabs other characters have.

Could Zelda be buffed? Sure. Does she NEED it? Eh. Yeah she's low tier, but someone has to be. And I'd rather not have to hear all the ******** when they make her mid-tier-at-best like in 3.02.

Rather than drastic alterations of a character's moves, why not slightly improve struggling characters' ability to deal with those moves or slightly tone down the moves in question? Changing a character's playstyle and radical nerfs are not good progress. Those actions only alienate people that main the character and don't necessarily address complaints. Complaints about Zelda may have simmered in your region, but the latest thread on our board and people I play with along with comments in the Tier List thread and on reddit suggest that there are plenty of people that believe Zelda is still "stupid" and better than lower mid tier. Characters that Zelda could abuse in 3.02 likely got abused by other good characters and most of the Top 10 anyways, and there's still plenty of abusable things in this game. What's wrong with having "abusable" moves so long as they aren't free or cheap? Players just have to adapt or pick up another character that can deal with the abuse. Some of the PMDT's "design" decisions and 3.5 and 3.6 resemble what the Smash 4 staff is doing with Smash 4 balance. Neither balancing team is encouraging players to adapt and find their own solutions to troublesome characters or moves, and that takes fun out of the game. Sure the nerfed characters may take more skill to win with, but at the same time, doesn't nerfing characters' best moves and attributes without adequate compensation make it take less skill for opponents to succeed? In which case, the former oppressor becomes oppressed.

 

[4tlas]

Rather than drastic alterations of a character's moves, why not slightly improve struggling characters' ability to deal with those moves or slightly tone down the moves in question? Changing a character's playstyle and radical nerfs are not good progress. Those actions only alienate people that main the character and don't necessarily address complaints. Complaints about Zelda may have simmered in your region, but the latest thread on our board and people I play with along with comments in the Tier List thread and on reddit suggest that there are plenty of people that believe Zelda is still "stupid" and better than lower mid tier. Characters that Zelda could abuse in 3.02 likely got abused by other good characters and most of the Top 10 anyways, and there's still plenty of abusable things in this game. What's wrong with having "abusable" moves so long as they aren't free or cheap? Players just have to adapt or pick up another character that can deal with the abuse. Some of the PMDT's "design" decisions and 3.5 and 3.6 resemble what the Smash 4 staff is doing with Smash 4 balance. Neither balancing team is encouraging players to adapt and find their own solutions to troublesome characters or moves, and that takes fun out of the game. Sure the nerfed characters may take more skill to win with, but at the same time, doesn't nerfing characters' best moves and attributes without adequate compensation make it take less skill for opponents to succeed? In which case, the former oppressor becomes oppressed.

First off, as you alluded to, perception is critically important here. As you said, the complaints about Zelda have mostly died down in my region. When I beat people now, people assume it is because I am more skillful since Zelda was nerfed. However, I also rarely play anymore in my region because I am always TOing, so people might A) respect me too much for TOing to tell me my character carried me and B) have forgotten how good I am so as to be so impressed when they finally play me again that they attribute it to my skill. Hard to tell.

I would argue that a move is not abuseable unless it is free or cheap. At that point it is just efficient/powerful. I had MUs in 3.02 that were pretty much impossible to lose, and some that were impossible to win, just off of Dins Fire alone. And I was a terrible player. The best plan was to homogenize Dins Fire without radically changing the move so it was never useless or overbearing, but PMDT changed it and it is clear they have no intention of reverting it. At this point I would prefer they just leave it alone so we don't have this fiasco all over again. I enjoy Companion Dins a lot (not as much as triple mine), and I'm sorry if your dislike of the move severely hampers your enjoyment of Zelda =(

At this point I would much prefer to debate how to maximize the effectiveness of the current Zelda rather than try to get her changed. It seems pretty clear to me at this point that the PMDT as a whole either does not care about Zelda or at least does not care to debate changes with us. They will do what they wish, and so I find it a waste of time to try and sway their opinion. Even if they do watch our boards and it is not a waste of time, I would prefer to not have extra negativity from Zelda mains permeate throughout every Zelda thread. As you mentioned, we already get enough of that from elsewhere.

 

[Downdraft]

In her current state, Zelda won't win anything significant without drastic changes to the characters she struggles against. Frame 11 jab with a bad angle and no guaranteed followups is bad. She doesn't have the speed to cover a tech roll away on D-throw and is forced to use Din's to cover the roll or get no followups. She has no guaranteed followups on f-throw, and B-throw is just a throw for positional advantage, throwing into Din's, or outright killing. I don't see enough U-throw and think that in general it might be her best throw at low -> mid percents. I don't know the optimal DI for it, but depending on the opponent, it can lead to a regrab, U-smash, U-air, lightning kicks, and even D-air.

She struggles against characters with good projectiles, characters with good disjoint, characters with great mobility, and characters with faster options than hers. Those types of characters cover over half the roster. She doesn't have good matchups with the best characters, has several hard counters, and mainly contends with fatties and other characters of low viability.

 

[noobftw]

Atlas I've gotten a lot better with zelda with the new dins but really characters going through the dins with nair like falco or falcon. Or ike just swiping it away with ftilt or marth just using fair. And O have to wait for the din's to come back is what bothers me since they have time to punish me or pressure. Yes the coming back helps catch them off guard sometimes. But it doesn't allow me to get the space I need to actually play the match up where it's not me being pressured the whole time. Also exploding the din's hasn't gotten me much benefit in neutral besides some small damage since there aren't real follow ups. It takes away my stage control and they usually don't respect the dins enough to care for it since they can just dash dance camp it or swat it away.
I personally think din's should be buffed only slightly to improve as well as her movement just so she can actually cover more options. But I don't think I can beat higher players with just zelda alone (I don't find interest in sheik so I don't count her). I'm starting to pick up ZSS and marth just because some match ups are just really difficult with the tools zelda has now.

 

[WhiteCrow]

In her current state, Zelda won't win anything significant without drastic changes

Challenge accepted.

 

[Prynne]

She struggles against characters with good projectiles, characters with good disjoint, characters with great mobility, and characters with faster options than hers. Those types of characters cover over half the roster. She doesn't have good matchups with the best characters, has several hard counters, and mainly contends with fatties and other characters of low viability.

Also, to add to this list, smaller characters that can easily avoid most of her ground moves at low percentages. Most of these characters can also fall into the aforementioned categories, further exacerbating the issue. Her pivot grab is a fairly reliable option, but it seems to be one of very few.

Challenge accepted.

We shall await your victory.

For the honor of Hyrule.

Ahhh 3.02 dins... you know, I really forget sometimes how great they were. 3.6 isn't bad by any means, and it's definitely improved a little from 3.5, but the mine really threatens surprisngly little space, and while it's cool the timed out explosions are bigger, you only get the small sized dins onstage which still don't threaten much. I think in general, 3.6 dins could use some more thinking through. I'm sure Magus is extremely hesistant to make them any better, but in my thinking, if there's a move that doesn't function how it's intended to be but can't be fixed because it does too much already, it's probably not a perfect conception anyways

I have such strange feelings about Din's. For one, I find it incredibly useful, and although I was initially highly skeptical of the design, I found out how to use it after consistently MIS-using it in matches. Is it bad design? No, most certainly not. I like the speed of it, how it can essentially move FOR Zelda because of how bad her mobility is. But I also noticed that it doesn't threaten nearly as much or as effectively as it once did. Which is kind of an issue, but not as much as we all would like to believe.

And as for Jab, being even frame 6 would probably augment her neutral game perfectly. I can't tell you how many times I've gone from Sheik to Zelda (or any other character in the game to Zelda), try to jab, and then immediately regret my decision. It's a good to use if you have a Din's in front of you and your opponent might somehow get through it and magically land into the hitbox, but it has little use at close range, just because of frame 11. It's an option that one can use, but it is not optimal.

Do I believe that Zelda can compete on a national scale?
Well, maybe. If your opponents consistently leave to get coffee in the middle of your sets and let you four stock them twice, maybe.
She has wonderful tools, truly wonderful, but some of them are simply worse then the competitors', by however little. Additionally, she has lackluster movement in a game that is about moving well and controlling space with your movement.

All in all, Zelda is not bad, but she is most certainly not better than at least 50% of the cast in terms of her abilities and matchup spread.

 

[4tlas]

In her current state, Zelda won't win anything significant without drastic changes to the characters she struggles against. Frame 11 jab with a bad angle and no guaranteed followups is bad. She doesn't have the speed to cover a tech roll away on D-throw and is forced to use Din's to cover the roll or get no followups. She has no guaranteed followups on f-throw, and B-throw is just a throw for positional advantage, throwing into Din's, or outright killing. I don't see enough U-throw and think that in general it might be her best throw at low -> mid percents. I don't know the optimal DI for it, but depending on the opponent, it can lead to a regrab, U-smash, U-air, lightning kicks, and even D-air.

She struggles against characters with good projectiles, characters with good disjoint, characters with great mobility, and characters with faster options than hers. Those types of characters cover over half the roster. She doesn't have good matchups with the best characters, has several hard counters, and mainly contends with fatties and other characters of low viability.

I agree she won't win anything significant. And she is fast enough to cover tech away on all the characters you would ever dthrow (so not fastfallers), but you are making a techchase read, not reaction. Upthrow's DI is dependent on which move you want to be hit by. Sideways for lightning kick (pick the one that doesn't get you killed) or none for an upair juggle that you hope to get down from.

Atlas I've gotten a lot better with zelda with the new dins but really characters going through the dins with nair like falco or falcon. Or ike just swiping it away with ftilt or marth just using fair. And O have to wait for the din's to come back is what bothers me since they have time to punish me or pressure. Yes the coming back helps catch them off guard sometimes. But it doesn't allow me to get the space I need to actually play the match up where it's not me being pressured the whole time. Also exploding the din's hasn't gotten me much benefit in neutral besides some small damage since there aren't real follow ups. It takes away my stage control and they usually don't respect the dins enough to care for it since they can just dash dance camp it or swat it away.
I personally think din's should be buffed only slightly to improve as well as her movement just so she can actually cover more options. But I don't think I can beat higher players with just zelda alone (I don't find interest in sheik so I don't count her). I'm starting to pick up ZSS and marth just because some match ups are just really difficult with the tools zelda has now.

My opponents figured out how to beat Dins, then I started to read those options and now we're back to Dins being a mindgame. If they are already afraid of it, I know to use it for stage control and can approach with it out. If they like to swat it, I place it on them or place it where they can't swat it and let i come back to me later. If they like to shield, I can channel it without punish for the really big Dins. If they like to rush me down, I just place one quickly or place it in their path and they stop approaching pretty quickly. Its a big cycle. No, its not ludicrously good or anything, but it is by no means bad.

Also, to add to this list, smaller characters that can easily avoid most of her ground moves at low percentages. Most of these characters can also fall into the aforementioned categories, further exacerbating the issue. Her pivot grab is a fairly reliable option, but it seems to be one of very few.



We shall await your victory.

For the honor of Hyrule.



I have such strange feelings about Din's. For one, I find it incredibly useful, and although I was initially highly skeptical of the design, I found out how to use it after consistently MIS-using it in matches. Is it bad design? No, most certainly not. I like the speed of it, how it can essentially move FOR Zelda because of how bad her mobility is. But I also noticed that it doesn't threaten nearly as much or as effectively as it once did. Which is kind of an issue, but not as much as we all would like to believe.

And as for Jab, being even frame 6 would probably augment her neutral game perfectly. I can't tell you how many times I've gone from Sheik to Zelda (or any other character in the game to Zelda), try to jab, and then immediately regret my decision. It's a good to use if you have a Din's in front of you and your opponent might somehow get through it and magically land into the hitbox, but it has little use at close range, just because of frame 11. It's an option that one can use, but it is not optimal.

Do I believe that Zelda can compete on a national scale?
Well, maybe. If your opponents consistently leave to get coffee in the middle of your sets and let you four stock them twice, maybe.
She has wonderful tools, truly wonderful, but some of them are simply worse then the competitors', by however little. Additionally, she has lackluster movement in a game that is about moving well and controlling space with your movement.

All in all, Zelda is not bad, but she is most certainly not better than at least 50% of the cast in terms of her abilities and matchup spread.

I can agree that Zelda is not bad, but she is definitely low tier. She has tools, they just aren't as good as other characters'. I'm mostly fine with that. I just want super sweet spots back! =(

 

[Arcalyth]

@ Downdraft "She doesn't have the speed to cover a tech roll away on D-throw"
Farore's Wind??????

@ otheusrex I'll let you know how I do against those 3 when I have the data but I'm confident in what I'm saying here. WhiteCrow put it well also. Jab has bigger and multiple hitboxes, where ftilt is a single precision strike. They serve different functions but to put them in a vacuum I would say that ftilt is the aggressive option and jab is the defensive option. And then there's dash attack which is both moves wrapped together bascially. Ftilt isn't safe on shield, you can OOS her extended arm. Jab doesn't put your hurtboxes anywhere near the opponent.

@ 4tlas I think it's a bit brash to say PMDT doesn't listen when Magus himself takes the time to reply to us all personally.

 

[Arcalyth]

Zelda has...
1. A jab with high startup, large range/disjoint and low endlag. High startup makes it not-so-great of a close range option. Better options are dsmash at frame 4, FW or Nayrus at frame 7 (30 to move with FW), or ftilt at frame 9? Or you can just trot away. But at or outside the range of jab, it clears space for you to approach. It earns you free stage control with its low endlag and shield safety. And if the opponent approaches it they get punished hard.

2. A high range, medium startup, medium endlag ftilt that sets up for a million followups. Undisputed bread and butter move, use it.

3. Two of the fastest smash attacks in the game: usmash, a reliable anti-air with great followups (but punishable endlag), and dsmash, a ground sweeper with invincibility that will force a reset or combo into dins. Oh, and it edgeguards too. These moves with Nayrus will reverse close range pressure.

4. A freaking teleport that can go anywhere on stage and cancel most of its endlag from anywhere. Oh, and it mixes up as an attack that can force people into their shield at full stage...

5. Meanwhile at full stage she also has the incredibly dynamic Din's fire, a huge lingering projectile that functions as a trap in multiple forms and sets up for combos. It cuts off options, combo breaks, baits approaches, or forces them if you place behind the opponent.

6. An invincible grounded combo breaker. (Nayrus)

7. One of the best air dodges in the game, and a superb perfect waveland.

8. Two knees. Except both of them are significantly faster than Falcon's. In fact, all but one of her aerials can KO outright... and you can SH aerial>waveland all but one of them as well.

9. A kill throw on top of one of the most damaging grabs in the game, one of the most damaging pummels in the game, a throw mixup with reliable followups, and a decent tech chase game. (Uthrow>uair, anyone?)

10. Some of the slowest ground speed in the game, but you only need a tiny sliver of space in order to dodge an attack. Her airspeed is pretty average tbh.

I didn't even go over her entire kit but I really fail to see how she can't contend with most of the cast. I see problems with like... squirtle, fire emblem, ivysaur maybe, toon link maybe. A few others perhaps. But overall I think her spread is fine. You gotta find ways to break her.

 

[Prynne]

You gotta find ways to break her.

You'll have to share with us one of these days.

 

[noobftw]

@ 4tlas
I never said din's was bad, I just said that it needs a slight buff and zelda needs to be faster to control space better that she gets. Also when I refer to people shielding it. They just dashdance shield stop while I cast out the dins on reaction and then I'm left open to them coming into my with my dins coming back and I have to wait which is why I hate the falcon match up or any dash dancer really because they exploit the time it takes to cast out dins.
The whole placing it out when your under pressure doesn't work if you're already pressured. It has a set distance to go and if they are already in your face you're just stuck there with no stage control and you don't cast another dins cause that will leave you open.

Of course it's still a decent option to cover space when you have time. So I'd just like it to compliment her a little more and that would be nice.

 

[Trollinguy]

Zelda is good character if you can master all her tools. Relying too heavily on one of her tools makes her gimmicky and when your opponent figures it out, they will crush you unless you change. Din's is fine, but it won't win you matches. LK's are nice but you have to know more then LK's. FW and Nayrus love are great but not spammable. Her grab game is actually decent (though her grab time could use a few frames trimmed off of startup, but it's fine as is imo) If you ever steal a DJ away on a map like FD say hello to a stock to crazy follow ups on most of the cast because uair and usmash are so strong.

Finally she has transform. I'm going to say this is the best move in the game hands down (Shine being the only thing that's close). You literally double your move set.
Zelda in my opinion is so fun to play because she has so many options. I feel like it's common for Zeldas to change strategy half way through a match or even multiple times.

In a way she is like puff; She is just as legit as she is a gimmick. She has some weaknesses which her strengths make up for. Yes this polarizes match-ups but this is also what makes her unique. Plus Sheik... is always there.

 

[Downdraft]

What ranking is good? I feel like many of us have different perceptions of where Zelda would rank versus the rest of the cast. To be specific, please use numbers instead of tiers. I'd say that Zelda is around 25-30/41, which isn't good. I'd define a good character as Top 15, no less. Good characters don't rely on secondaries to win big tournaments. Good characters don't go even with or lose to over half the cast. Take a look at the matchup anthology and see the spread this community has come up with for the completed matchups. It's not even halfway complete, and the spread is already not looking favorable. Zhime has mastered all of her tools. He mastered her normals ages ago, and the major changes that require the most adaptation were to her special attacks, and he mastered those too. He is a professional. If you think Zelda's good, why don't you outperform him and beat the people and characters that have given him trouble in more than a one-off scenario? Better yet, why don't you convincingly beat him in a best of 5 Zelda ditto? If you can't back up your talk with results, then your talk is just talk.

 

[otheusrex]

I think that it's really difficult to accurately talk about character's power and capability in PM. There's no real objective way of going about it, all of us, including the pmdt just sort of eyeballs things, but that's really not good enough if were' trying to be precise. I think jab and dtilt is terrible as in compared to what most other characters have and I also think that compared to most character's Zelda is underequipped, or perhaps, a bunch of other characters are over equipped , ex. Luigi. He has superb defensive attributes and moves, can true combo pretty much everyone, has excellent movement options, and a very adaquate zone breaking ability to approach with, oh yeah, and also a really good recovery. Coming from playing zelda, who's routintely been denied certain improvements because of she has some of these characteristcs, it doesn't seem like those characters were made for the same philosophy of this game.

That's just one example, I feel there are probably tons of less obvious heavy handed improvements or in turn, too stingy toolsets. We shoudl all strive for some sort of Structured, clearly define and EMPIRICAL measuring plan for gauging capability in this game. If we had that, it would be so muhc easier to discuss things like whether Zelda's worse than normal jab can afford to be improved

 

[noobftw]

When I rate a character. It's usually by match up spread. Really good characters don't have many bad match ups in this large cast. Like sheik, fox, roy, and other high tiers. They go even most of the time and they have the multiple options to cover things the opponent can do. Mid tiers usually have their bad match ups be against the high tiers and can deal with low tier relatively well. And so on for tiers in a game like this.
Zelda's match up spread is pretty bad imo. She loses to a lot of the high tiers and doesn't have a lot of winnning match ups. Some and at most imo she gets is a 6:4. She doesn't dominate any character and she loses badly against other characters which is pretty mid tier to low tier.
Also sheik to me is a different character. Transforming means you play sheik not zelda lol. Sheilda is a thing but at the same time it's just switching because you don't feel comfortable.