Zelda Social Thread

[BlackMamba]

Squirtle is pretty rough... so many tools lose their efficiency against his fast d-tilt, seemingly mindless side-b approaches, and his high knock back recovery. I think, at top level play, Squirtle, Marth, Fox, Mewtwo, and Roy are Zelda's hardest matchups. They're winnable but 60/40 at least, and we don't have a lot of footage showing success in those matchups. Ike, G&W, Jiggs, Ganon on small stages, Luigi, and Kirby are also rough but manageable. I wish that active mines would stop Squirtle's side-b but it's not in the cards.

I agree with most of that. Also I think ROB kinda wrecks Zelda, but then he wrecks most floaties, IMO (I dual main them)

 

[4tlas]

Not usually, no

Maybe it was the high percent?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Maybe it was the high percent?

I think you are right, similar to how Yoshi's armor isn't as effective at super high percents. I don't know if a detonating Din breaks through some of Squirtle's armor but can help (first hit of detonation breaks armor allowing returning Din to scratch Squirtle). He can side b and nair through our Nayru's Love, nair, jab, d tilt, and even f smash if we time it wrong. And he's too small to reliably up smash and up tilt sooo. I haven't run into many competent Squirtle's and it feels like a really hard matchup.

And yeah, ROB is also a hard matchup up I forgot about. Our first on the PR is a ROB player named Gage and he's a monster. He won't go to a tournament for months and come in and get first against even Oregon's best Melee players. I haven't fought ROB much in 3.5 but I think the new Din's Fire helps us out more.

 

[otheusrex]

With Squirtle, knocking him out of his side b isn't the hard part for me if I take him to a big stage, it's his jump mix ups (especially bubbles) that make the entire mu very clutch.

 

[Downdraft]

Squirtle is pretty rough... so many tools lose their efficiency against his fast d-tilt, seemingly mindless side-b approaches, and his high knock back recovery. I think, at top level play, Squirtle, Marth, Fox, Mewtwo, and Roy are Zelda's hardest matchups. They're winnable but 60/40 at least, and we don't have a lot of footage showing success in those matchups. Ike, G&W, Jiggs, Ganon on small stages, Luigi, and Kirby are also rough but manageable. I wish that active mines would stop Squirtle's side-b but it's not in the cards.

In 3.02, Ivysaur, Link, and Meta Knight were rough matchups. I'd say Samus is tough too.
I know MK and Ivy were nerfed significantly, but Ivy is still tough. Link and Samus are still rough.

 

[4tlas]

Can somebody watch the video I posted and tell me how awesome (aka mediocre) I am? Lather the praise on me!

By that I mean "eh, I think I'm just ok. But please tell me I'm wrong!" =)

 

[BlackMamba]

Can somebody watch the video I posted and tell me how awesome (aka mediocre) I am? Lather the praise on me!

By that I mean "eh, I think I'm just ok. But please tell me I'm wrong!" =)

In 3.02, Ivysaur, Link, and Meta Knight were rough matchups. I'd say Samus is tough too.
I know MK and Ivy were nerfed significantly, but Ivy is still tough. Link and Samus are still rough.

I usually only have trouble with Samus if they use a looot of Zairs. Missiles only really give me trouble if I somehow let them start missile camping across the stage. I think Zelda can kill Samus more easily than Samus can kill her tho. I hate the Ivy matchup. Link can be irritating but for me is managable on most stages, I think Toon Link is 1000X worse. Metaknight is in his favor but there are much worse matchups IMO

 

[BlackMamba]

Can somebody watch the video I posted and tell me how awesome (aka mediocre) I am? Lather the praise on me!

By that I mean "eh, I think I'm just ok. But please tell me I'm wrong!" =)

I watched the whole thing haha. Are you the person who posted a set versus a link a while back (winter time)? If so you've gotten waaaay better. If not... disregard that lol. Nice use of Naryu's to punish whiffed fairs, I didn't know you could do that. Good mixups on recoveries. You went for a lot of downtilts at the edge that didn't really get you anywhere, so I'd say you could try being a bit more creative on edgeguards (you didn't try edgehogging at all that I saw, and he nearly always tried for sweetspots so some Farore's snaps to the edges would have gotten you some stocks). Don't know if I agree with your stage picks; his nair and fair cover much more space than any of Zelda's moves so the smaller stages probably worked more in his favor, I'd have probably gone for more medium sized stages. That's just me tho. You should play around more with your options out of teleport as well as your teleport locations. Also, use nair more. It's just the smartest option a lot of the time for continuing/ending combos (as opposed to going for a kick you probably won't hit). Liked your use of dash/jump canceled grabs. Overall you both played really solidly

 

[4tlas]

I watched the whole thing haha. Are you the person who posted a set versus a link a while back (winter time)? If so you've gotten waaaay better. If not... disregard that lol. Nice use of Naryu's to punish whiffed fairs, I didn't know you could do that. Good mixups on recoveries. You went for a lot of downtilts at the edge that didn't really get you anywhere, so I'd say you could try being a bit more creative on edgeguards (you didn't try edgehogging at all that I saw, and he nearly always tried for sweetspots so some Farore's snaps to the edges would have gotten you some stocks). Don't know if I agree with your stage picks; his nair and fair cover much more space than any of Zelda's moves so the smaller stages probably worked more in his favor, I'd have probably gone for more medium sized stages. That's just me tho. You should play around more with your options out of teleport as well as your teleport locations. Also, use nair more. It's just the smartest option a lot of the time for continuing/ending combos (as opposed to going for a kick you probably won't hit). Liked your use of dash/jump canceled grabs. Overall you both played really solidly

Yeah that was me back then. I think I've gotten a lot better too, thanks! I miss 3.02 Zelda though

I really hate Game and Watch, so I'm afraid to edgeguard him. I often end up off the stage. But I should try edgehogging more. I'll never get confident enough in not SD'ing if I don't practice! Thanks for the feedback!

 

[ECHOnce]

Doesnt Dins stop sideB? I know I used it to in 3.02. I think.

I think you are right, similar to how Yoshi's armor isn't as effective at super high percents. I don't know if a detonating Din breaks through some of Squirtle's armor but can help (first hit of detonation breaks armor allowing returning Din to scratch Squirtle). He can side b and nair through our Nayru's Love, nair, jab, d tilt, and even f smash if we time it wrong. And he's too small to reliably up smash and up tilt sooo. I haven't run into many competent Squirtle's and it feels like a really hard matchup.

As much as I would like for my old thread to never see the light of day again...it did have one useful post we should always save for reference lol:

Squirtle's armor on his side b is knockback resistence, and since one takes more knockback at high percents, it means that dealing damage to squirtle opens up more and more options to stop his side b.

Zelda's Attacks that stop squirtle's side b according to percentage:

• 0% and higher---- Uptilt, critical kicks, Ribbon hit , Dash grab, Pivot Grab, shield grab(if they cross you up), Fsmash (the big last hit, so time it well), Dins explosions, grounded nayru (use invincibility so he crosses up, and he'll often try to turn around behind to punish but will get caught in nayru), Dair sweet spot
• 21% and higher----- Dash Attack
• 34% and higher----- Dsmash
• 78% and higher----- Din's fire

Note that many of these attacks require a read and good timing to land successfully; I'd recommend taking squirtle to larger stages so you can have more distance to react to his approaches. At higher percents against squirtle, I always try to be standing near a dins fire on the ground because if he runs into it with side b, it's a free punish

This was from 3.02 so some things might have changed, but I'm sure most of it is still applicable. On another note...goddamn, Squirtle remains the one MU that going Sheilda can't solve xD I'm all good against Samuses, Links, M2s...whatever lol. But Squirtle. fjekwa;fjekwalfjeaw Gotta train my Marth/ROB back up to scratch so I don't keep getting trashed by my local monthly's Squirtle

 

[BlackMamba]

As much as I would like for my old thread to never see the light of day again...it did have one useful post we should always save for reference lol:


This was from 3.02 so some things might have changed, but I'm sure most of it is still applicable. On another note...goddamn, Squirtle remains the one MU that going Sheilda can't solve xD I'm all good against Samuses, Links, M2s...whatever lol. But Squirtle. fjekwa;fjekwalfjeaw Gotta train my Marth/ROB back up to scratch so I don't keep getting trashed by my local monthly's Squirtle

LOL I mean I guess I can try the matchup again with some of that stuff taken into account but damn... there's still like NOTHING you can do at 0% lmao

 

[4tlas]

I just harass with Dins, stuff approaches with jab/upsmash, and shield sideBs. Eventually you can start doing something...maybe.

 

[ECHOnce]

I just harass with Dins, stuff approaches with jab/upsmash, and shield sideBs. Eventually you can start doing something...maybe.

No. Idle/returning dins don't work until Squirtle is mid %s, and he's far too short to get caught by jab as an anti-approach, much less U-smash (even if he stood beside Zelda, I doubt he'd get dragged in until the last half of hitboxes). Jab doesn't knock him out of super armor, anyhow.

Shielding in anticipation of a side-B is giving him a free grab; good Squirtles thrive off of opponents not knowing the MU, getting overwhelmed by his crazy approach speed+range, and relying on shield too much. You just gonna shell-shift > grabbed, or shell-shift > hop past shield > B-air'ed, or shell-shift > empty hop > punished on reaction. Squirtles have a lot of easy-to-perform mixups that are hard to discern by non-Squirtles (not unlike Sonic combo stuff), and unless your character has enough quick options to throw him off, you're boned. Zelda has some (LK oos, D-air oos, Naryus, Teleport Ribbon), but they're all unsafe if you guess his approach incorrectly, since they're all are situational (they rely on catching beating out the super armor using tiny disjoints, or 4? frames of invincibility). Anyhow, even if those 4 options were supposedly enough to keep a Squirtle guessing (which they never should be lol), then he still has the advantage of better mobility in neutral/close-quarters. ( = eww squirtle pressure). Against Squirtle MU in bracket, I advise Zeldas to cry. Or go Sheik. Struggle is still real tho.

EDIT: It just occured to me that you may have not been talking about Squirtle's at all. If so my b

 

[4tlas]

No. Idle/returning dins don't work until Squirtle is mid %s, and he's far too short to get caught by jab as an anti-approach, much less U-smash (even if he stood beside Zelda, I doubt he'd get dragged in until the last half of hitboxes). Jab doesn't knock him out of super armor, anyhow.

Shielding in anticipation of a side-B is giving him a free grab; good Squirtles thrive off of opponents not knowing the MU, getting overwhelmed by his crazy approach speed+range, and relying on shield too much. You just gonna shell-shift > grabbed, or shell-shift > hop past shield > B-air'ed, or shell-shift > empty hop > punished on reaction. Squirtles have a lot of easy-to-perform mixups that are hard to discern by non-Squirtles (not unlike Sonic combo stuff), and unless your character has enough quick options to throw him off, you're boned. Zelda has some (LK oos, D-air oos, Naryus, Teleport Ribbon), but they're all unsafe if you guess his approach incorrectly, since they're all are situational (they rely on catching beating out the super armor using tiny disjoints, or 4? frames of invincibility). Anyhow, even if those 4 options were supposedly enough to keep a Squirtle guessing (which they never should be lol), then he still has the advantage of better mobility in neutral/close-quarters. ( = eww squirtle pressure). Against Squirtle MU in bracket, I advise Zeldas to cry. Or go Sheik. Struggle is still real tho.

EDIT: It just occured to me that you may have not been talking about Squirtle's at all. If so my b

I was saying I harass with Dins so he approaches. If he approaches with sideB I shield. If he jumps at me I can upsmash. In other situations I can likely jab to stuff his approach.

I agree the MU is a nightmare, and as a Sheilda player with a focus on Zelda this is one of the times I might consider going straight Sheik. Even then, ew.

 

[ECHOnce]

So Zhime entered a dolphin PM netplay tourney the other day and faced a Squirtle in WF, who seemed pretty good, but...he was definitely making some terrible decisions and Zhime whooped him. Not because of MU or anything, but just player skill/preparedness (DirtBoy does play amazing in LF against a Marth though; that was a fun set to watch. Haven't seen GF yet). But I'll just post it here anyways, since I haven't seen anyone else bring up the tourney in the Zelda socials yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafGfw8a8KU
Those commentators talking like they know characters though...yeesh.

 

[4tlas]

So Zhime entered a dolphin PM netplay tourney the other day and faced a Squirtle in WF, who seemed pretty good, but...he was definitely making some terrible decisions and Zhime whooped him. Not because of MU or anything, but just player skill/preparedness (DirtBoy does play amazing in LF against a Marth though; that was a fun set to watch. Haven't seen GF yet). But I'll just post it here anyways, since I haven't seen anyone else bring up the tourney in the Zelda socials yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafGfw8a8KU
Those commentators talking like they know characters though...yeesh.

Yeah that guy knew nothing about the MU. Zhime also played very well.

 

[BlackMamba]

So Zhime entered a dolphin PM netplay tourney the other day and faced a Squirtle in WF, who seemed pretty good, but...he was definitely making some terrible decisions and Zhime whooped him. Not because of MU or anything, but just player skill/preparedness (DirtBoy does play amazing in LF against a Marth though; that was a fun set to watch. Haven't seen GF yet). But I'll just post it here anyways, since I haven't seen anyone else bring up the tourney in the Zelda socials yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WafGfw8a8KU
Those commentators talking like they know characters though...yeesh.

It seems like no one really knew matchups in that tourney... DirtBoy should used 1000X more side b approaches against Zhime (he used the fewest I've ever seen a squirtle do, honestly). Marth can shut down squirtle in nearly ever way (Fair walls in the air, down tilt and Fsmash on the ground, counter on recovery). And tho Marth wins the Zelda matchup for sure, Emoticon never knew how to react to Din's and never went offstage to punish the startup lag on Zelda's recovery. Oddly, Zhime also seemed a bit unsure of how to DI out of Ken combos (he got comboed into spikes quiiiite a few times over the course of their nine games). I'm not sure. Though Grand Finals was really fun to watch overall, it was a bit of an odd tournament haha

 

[ECHOnce]

It seems like no one really knew matchups in that tourney... DirtBoy should used 1000X more side b approaches against Zhime (he used the fewest I've ever seen a squirtle do, honestly). Marth can shut down squirtle in nearly ever way (Fair walls in the air, down tilt and Fsmash on the ground, counter on recovery). And tho Marth wins the Zelda matchup for sure, Emoticon never knew how to react to Din's and never went offstage to punish the startup lag on Zelda's recovery. Oddly, Zhime also seemed a bit unsure of how to DI out of Ken combos (he got comboed into spikes quiiiite a few times over the course of their nine games). I'm not sure. Though Grand Finals was really fun to watch overall, it was a bit of an odd tournament haha

Actually...to be fair, Dirt is debatably one of the best Squirtles from what I've heard (none of which are quite in the same tier as top PM players, but still...lol), and is 1st on Anther's PR. So idk...maybe he was just nervous or started choking hard, because I have seen great plays from him in other sets. That, on top of the fact that Zhime is just god tier lol. But yeah. IIRC he's from Michigan, or some other state that's basically a Squirtle hell with several other PR players who main/secondary the little pooper. Disappointing to not see some better play from him, but I wouldn't discount him as that fraudulent; he's just in a different skill group. Good top players make mediocre top players look bad. Godly top players make good top players look bad. And everyone else looks bad because they're just bad. Hehe

Marth doesn't decisively win the Zelda MU. It's like 55-45 in his favor if both know it well, so it could easily go 50-50 or favor Zeldas with more experience (which is gonna be the case more often than not). I won't comment on the specifics that you pointed out though because I'd have to watch GF all over again xD But I can say that, at least imo, swatting Dins is scary in 3.5. If they're not confident in how 3.5 return paths work, I'd actually recommend not swatting them and just giving them some distance (to avoid on reaction if Zelda calls it back). Y'all should call me out on this if I'm completely wrong btw lol, I haven't played for a few weeks. >___> Sooooon.

 

[4tlas]

Marth doesn't decisively win the Zelda MU. It's like 55-45 in his favor if both know it well, so it could easily go 50-50 or favor Zeldas with more experience (which is gonna be the case more often than not). I won't comment on the specifics that you pointed out though because I'd have to watch GF all over again xD But I can say that, at least imo, swatting Dins is scary in 3.5. If they're not confident in how 3.5 return paths work, I'd actually recommend not swatting them and just giving them some distance (to avoid on reaction if Zelda calls it back). Y'all should call me out on this if I'm completely wrong btw lol, I haven't played for a few weeks. >___> Sooooon.

Characters with disjoints can try to swat small or medium mines without fear of getting exploded. I make opponents regret going for the mine as much as possible by exploding it in their face. After all, if they're going for the mine, they aren't going for me.

Unless I am using it as protection. In that case, they eat a lightning kick for going after my baby.

 

[BlackMamba]

Actually...to be fair, Dirt is debatably one of the best Squirtles from what I've heard (none of which are quite in the same tier as top PM players, but still...lol), and is 1st on Anther's PR. So idk...maybe he was just nervous or started choking hard, because I have seen great plays from him in other sets. That, on top of the fact that Zhime is just god tier lol. But yeah. IIRC he's from Michigan, or some other state that's basically a Squirtle hell with several other PR players who main/secondary the little pooper. Disappointing to not see some better play from him, but I wouldn't discount him as that fraudulent; he's just in a different skill group. Good top players make mediocre top players look bad. Godly top players make good top players look bad. And everyone else looks bad because they're just bad. Hehe

Marth doesn't decisively win the Zelda MU. It's like 55-45 in his favor if both know it well, so it could easily go 50-50 or favor Zeldas with more experience (which is gonna be the case more often than not). I won't comment on the specifics that you pointed out though because I'd have to watch GF all over again xD But I can say that, at least imo, swatting Dins is scary in 3.5. If they're not confident in how 3.5 return paths work, I'd actually recommend not swatting them and just giving them some distance (to avoid on reaction if Zelda calls it back). Y'all should call me out on this if I'm completely wrong btw lol, I haven't played for a few weeks. >___> Sooooon.

Mm... If both players know the matchup I say that it's for sure in Marth's favor. He has a very easy time shutting down her approaches (which are already mediocre) and walling her out. Plus if he's smart about it he can edgeguard her more effectively than nearly every other cast member, and he gets much easier combos on her than the other way around. 60/40. That ratio reverses if the Zelda is familar with the matchup and the Marth isn't. And regardless of skill level, it seemed as tho Dirtboy didn't know he could armor through almost all of Zelda's moves, and he also didn't know how to DI her throws. Things like that are more based on matchup knowledge than skill haha

 

[BlackMamba]

Characters with disjoints can try to swat small or medium mines without fear of getting exploded. I make opponents regret going for the mine as much as possible by exploding it in their face. After all, if they're going for the mine, they aren't going for me.

Unless I am using it as protection. In that case, they eat a lightning kick for going after my baby.

Yeah fire emblem characters really don't have to worry about defusing mines cuz even if you blow up the mine manually they're too far away to get hurt

 

[ECHOnce]

Mm... If both players know the matchup I say that it's for sure in Marth's favor. He has a very easy time shutting down her approaches (which are already mediocre) and walling her out. Plus if he's smart about it he can edgeguard her more effectively than nearly every other cast member, and he gets much easier combos on her than the other way around. 60/40. That ratio reverses if the Zelda is familar with the matchup and the Marth isn't.

That we can agree on, give or take 10 units in MU stuffs. Whatever it is, it's fairly even, Marth has slight advantage, and Zeldas can still pull through if both players are equally experienced, albeit a cakewalk for one side and a massive pain in the other's behind lol.

@ BJN39 I've recently found a friend who lives near me with a Wii U. Could you point me towards which chars may be a bit more niche, but still viable? Not looking to invest as much time into S4 as Melee/PM, so I don't wanna learn a top tier that everyone will have more MU experience in than me to exploit, while I'm mostly preoccupied fumbling to adjust to physics and remembering meta ; n; I've heard that Palu, Peach, and WFT all sorta fit this description. What're your thoughts? Brawl main was ROB, and the onetime I tried S4 out in the past ZSS felt ok, but ZSS prob feels ok to everyone and I've heard that ROB is somewhat common lol...

 

[Downdraft]

Why does one of the aerial Nayru's Love options seem to move faster and farther than the others?
1. Jump forward Nayru's.
2. Jump forward B-reverse Nayru's.
3. Jump backward Nayru's.
4. Jump backward turnaround Nayru's.
5. Jump backward wavebounce Nayru's.
6. Jump backward B-reverse Nayru's.

I don't know if turnaround or wavebounced Nayru's exist if Zelda is moving forward through the air.

Anyways, option 6 moves noticeably faster and farther. If you drift backwards off the recovery platform and B-reverse Nayru's, you'll be sent at speeds comparable to Nayru's glide.

 

[BJN39]

That we can agree on, give or take 10 units in MU stuffs. Whatever it is, it's fairly even, Marth has slight advantage, and Zeldas can still pull through if both players are equally experienced, albeit a cakewalk for one side and a massive pain in the other's behind lol.

@ BJN39 I've recently found a friend who lives near me with a Wii U. Could you point me towards which chars may be a bit more niche, but still viable? Not looking to invest as much time into S4 as Melee/PM, so I don't wanna learn a top tier that everyone will have more MU experience in than me to exploit, while I'm mostly preoccupied fumbling to adjust to physics and remembering meta ; n; I've heard that Palu, Peach, and WFT all sorta fit this description. What're your thoughts? Brawl main was ROB, and the onetime I tried S4 out in the past ZSS felt ok, but ZSS prob feels ok to everyone and I've heard that ROB is somewhat common lol...

Woop, so glad I checked here, because my tagging notifications were off! (I REALLY need to fix this lol.)

Peach is often considered a decent character (high tier in most cases.) but she, like in Brawl requires an almost stressful amount of dedication, (So that might clash with PM a little.) WiiFit is pretty niche, but whether she's viable enough is up in the air. She just needs to get some more good showings. I'd actually recommend her. (I like her :>) ZSS is crazy good in this game (BL top tier threat) but she's got super hype combining, and is just really amazing. She even has the perfect something to do with her weight and shape combination to resist Multi-hit moves (One of the Zeldas was just mentioning how they got ZSS to fall out of Zelda's Fsmash 30/30 times in training holy crap!)

Lots of people believe (Customless) Palutena is viable, but with only like, 2 useable normals and her basically relying on grabs, it's just an even more hilariously sad situation than Zelda. Honestly just about everyone in SSB4 is considered viable right now (obvi some having it a little harder like Zelda/Lucina/WiiFit) so you could kinda pick anyone. Perhaps you could even go with Rob! He's pretty decent in SSB4, but not so widely a threat that everyone will know how to beat him.

I'm guessing playing Zelda is out of the picture?

 

[ECHOnce]

Why does one of the aerial Nayru's Love options seem to move faster and farther than the others?
1. Jump forward Nayru's.
2. Jump forward B-reverse Nayru's.
3. Jump backward Nayru's.
4. Jump backward turnaround Nayru's.
5. Jump backward wavebounce Nayru's.
6. Jump backward B-reverse Nayru's.

I don't know if turnaround or wavebounced Nayru's exist if Zelda is moving forward through the air.

Anyways, option 6 moves noticeably faster and farther. If you drift backwards off the recovery platform and B-reverse Nayru's, you'll be sent at speeds comparable to Nayru's glide.

I'm not super heavy on Wavebounced Nayrus (I usually just stick to regular/turnaround or B-reverse because I'm sticking mostly to Melee caveman technology lol), but from what I've tried they all seem about the same. Could it be that you're unintentionally jumping with different initial-horizontal momentum for each Nayrus tech? (sorta like how wavedashing with nearly-full horizontal momentum can be stupid hard to get consistently) I'd imagine that with so much analog input involved, it would be easy to build imperfect habits in muscle memory.

Woop, so glad I checked here, because my tagging notifications were off! (I REALLY need to fix this lol.)

Peach is often considered a decent character (high tier in most cases.) but she, like in Brawl requires an almost stressful amount of dedication, (So that might clash with PM a little.) WiiFit is pretty niche, but whether she's viable enough is up in the air. She just needs to get some more good showings. I'd actually recommend her. (I like her :>) ZSS is crazy good in this game (BL top tier threat) but she's got super hype combining, and is just really amazing. She even has the perfect something to do with her weight and shape combination to resist Multi-hit moves (One of the Zeldas was just mentioning how they got ZSS to fall out of Zelda's Fsmash 30/30 times in training holy crap!)

Lots of people believe (Customless) Palutena is viable, but with only like, 2 useable normals and her basically relying on grabs, it's just an even more hilariously sad situation than Zelda. Honestly just about everyone in SSB4 is considered viable right now (obvi some having it a little harder like Zelda/Lucina/WiiFit) so you could kinda pick anyone. Perhaps you could even go with Rob! He's pretty decent in SSB4, but not so widely a threat that everyone will know how to beat him.

I'm guessing playing Zelda is out of the picture?

Funnily enough...no. xD Got to play with him for a good 3ish hours in S4 today. I did best with ZSS, then Zelda, then ROB, and the others just got me crapped all over. Still haven't tried over half the cast yet though. He plays Sheik. Bouncing fish is buuuullcrap. Thanks for the tips aha

EDIT: Screw it, I'm flaunting the Zelda S4 main flare~ Even if I did better in general as ZSS, I was confused af in certain matchups in neutral. With Zelda I did mediocre against any. At least for now while I have no meta knowledge or S4 setup, I'll prob stick to playing her like a weird Melee/Brawl hybrid lol

 

[Downdraft]

I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Tier List Speculation thread.
There are several voices arguing against Ryoko and rizner that transform should be removed.
Some people have spoken like they believe Zelda is a solid, well-designed character.

I argue against such here then Sanclaira joins.
I've been reading much of the discussion since Strong Bad posted his tier list, and no one talked about Zelda, so I skipped to last the few pages and saw Ryoko defending transform. Like it or not, Zelda is currently under the spotlight in that thread, and now might be a good time to improve our relations with other characters' communities and answer many of the misconceptions that surround the character. No one may listen, but it can be used to build a case later.

 

[4tlas]

Of course as soon as I stop following the Tier List Circlejerk Thread it finally talks about something relevant to me. Just read up on 10 pages of Zelda hate.

I love debating. I love Sheilda. I love Smash. I love communities. Diving into that cluster**** would be all the things I love. Unfortunately, its also the 2 things I hate most of all. Interacting with assholes, and interacting with idiots.

It is impossible to have a debate with such a large number of people simultaneously, and it is also impossible to have a debate with someone who is angry and takes every rebuttal personally. I know there's no way to win over people in that thread. Hell, I see some of my IRL friends arguing for Transform, the move they know is critically important to me, to be removed. I can't even win them over when I argue with them in person!

So I'd rather not go there to defend her. Tag me if you really need backup. It looks like Ryoko has it under control.

 

[Downdraft]

Of course as soon as I stop following the Tier List Circlejerk Thread it finally talks about something relevant to me. Just read up on 10 pages of Zelda hate.

I love debating. I love Sheilda. I love Smash. I love communities. Diving into that cluster**** would be all the things I love. Unfortunately, its also the 2 things I hate most of all. Interacting with *******s, and interacting with idiots.

It is impossible to have a debate with such a large number of people simultaneously, and it is also impossible to have a debate with someone who is angry and takes every rebuttal personally. I know there's no way to win over people in that thread. Hell, I see some of my IRL friends arguing for Transform, the move they know is critically important to me, to be removed. I can't even win them over when I argue with them in person!

So I'd rather not go there to defend her. Tag me if you really need backup. It looks like Ryoko has it under control.

Well no other Zeldas have chimed in, so I haven't responded to the latest posts.
I don't really have a voice or recognition in Project M, and I'm not interested in arguing alone since my opinions and feelings won't be representative of our entire group. If we actually want to discuss Zelda with the community, then there is a place where we can gather our thoughts first to avoid presenting conflicts or contradictions when discussing her changes and current state in 3.5's meta.

 

[4tlas]

Well no other Zeldas have chimed in, so I haven't responded to the latest posts.
I don't really have a voice or recognition in Project M, and I'm not interested in arguing alone since my opinions and feelings won't be representative of our entire group. If we actually want to discuss Zelda with the community, then there is a place where we can gather our thoughts first to avoid presenting conflicts or contradictions when discussing her changes and current state in 3.5's meta.

Hmm, I think THAT is a GREAT idea! It is much easier to debate in small groups because each voice is heard more, and it is certainly easier to debate with the weight of several opinions. It is harder to dismiss your argument offhand.

Let's make a new thread! Should it be about just transform, or about Zelda design/opinions in general?

 

[Downdraft]

Hmm, I think THAT is a GREAT idea! It is much easier to debate in small groups because each voice is heard more, and it is certainly easier to debate with the weight of several opinions. It is harder to dismiss your argument offhand.

Let's make a new thread! Should it be about just transform, or about Zelda design/opinions in general?

Well by "is", I was referring to our Private Message group. We could use the existing 3.5 changes thread to collect thoughts that we'd like to present in the tier list speculation thread.

 

[ECHOnce]

I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Tier List Speculation thread.
There are several voices arguing against Ryoko and rizner that transform should be removed.
Some people have spoken like they believe Zelda is a solid, well-designed character.

I argue against such here then Sanclaira joins.
I've been reading much of the discussion since Strong Bad posted his tier list, and no one talked about Zelda, so I skipped to last the few pages and saw Ryoko defending transform. Like it or not, Zelda is currently under the spotlight in that thread, and now might be a good time to improve our relations with other characters' communities and answer many of the misconceptions that surround the character. No one may listen, but it can be used to build a case later.

Whoa hold up there. Sheilda is my life. Nothing crazy better have gone down lol...skimming through pages now

EDIT: Oh, I thought you were among the voices against transform lolol. Since that's not the case, I can rest assured over dinner before reading huhu.

 

[Downdraft]

Whoa hold up there. Sheilda is my life. Nothing crazy better have gone down lol...skimming through pages now

EDIT: Oh, I thought you were among the voices against transform lolol. Since that's not the case, I can rest assured over dinner before reading huhu.

Dinner? lol
Ryoko appeared to be handling the transform dispute sufficiently himself; I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Since Zelda was the topic, it just seems like a good time to band together and generate some discussion with the greater community about our character. Most of our opinions have been kept to ourselves or discussed in secret, and that doesn't benefit our character at all.

 

[BJN39]

While Phantom slash is love and life in Smash 4, It would NOT be worth the trouble to separate the characters in P:M.

First, we have to make them new moves. P:M is already in some warn water with Nintendo, so basically designing something akin to the moves in Smash 4 would be a no no, simply to avoid any issues. But this would suck, and I would have LOVED to see what they could do with Bouncing Fish, Burst Grenade, and Phantom Slash, but they really can't use those moves.

So then what do they do for those moves?

Then we have to think of the spectrum of imbalance that would have to be thoroughly addresses when ONE WHOLE MOVE gets added to two very heavily and fully developed characters. There would likely need to be some sort of tone-down to the character that no one will like if the move is to have any utility at all, because why even create an entire new move just for it to be useless? The P:M definitely wouldn't want to do THAT. (Note: One of these characters is SHEIK. NOTHING will truly ever be done to alter her, so nerfs would be out the window, BUT THEN so would any good sides to a new down B, because she's already good enough a new move would end up being to much unless it was basically a taunt lmao.)

Just my 2 cents looking at it. There would be a lot of mess to possibly add moves that really can't be there without bringing on mounds of complaints. If anyone wants they can feel free to post this elsewhere, but I don't think I'll be taking part in actual discussion, partially due to how rusty my P:M knowledge is, and I've already had my share of reading tiresome Zelda arguments.

 

[Downdraft]

While Phantom slash is love and life in Smash 4, It would NOT be worth the trouble to separate the characters in P:M.

First, we have to make them new moves. P:M is already in some warn water with Nintendo, so basically designing something akin to the moves in Smash 4 would be a no no, simply to avoid any issues. But this would suck, and I would have LOVED to see what they could do with Bouncing Fish, Burst Grenade, and Phantom Slash, but they really can't use those moves.

So then what do they do for those moves?

Then we have to think of the spectrum of imbalance that would have to be thoroughly addresses when ONE WHOLE MOVE gets added to two very heavily and fully developed characters. There would likely need to be some sort of tone-down to the character that no one will like if the move is to have any utility at all, because why even create an entire new move just for it to be useless? The P:M definitely wouldn't want to do THAT. (Note: One of these characters is SHEIK. NOTHING will truly ever be done to alter her, so nerfs would be out the window, BUT THEN so would any good sides to a new down B, because she's already good enough a new move would end up being to much unless it was basically a taunt lmao.)

Just my 2 cents looking at it. There would be a lot of mess to possibly add moves that really can't be there without bringing on mounds of complaints. If anyone wants they can feel free to post this elsewhere, but I don't think I'll be taking part in actual discussion, partially due to how rusty my P:M knowledge is, and I've already had my share of reading tiresome Zelda arguments.

Emphasized. Balance isn't a legit concern IMO since Zelda is not suited for high level competition. If transform were ever replaced with a new special, then perhaps it could improve her approach game or offensive capabilities. People don't like how Zelda is "overly defensive" or how she "turns the game into a chess match", so a new special that would allow her to smartly and safely speed up the pace of the match without losing her decent defensive attributes would be nice.

 

[BJN39]

Emphasized. Balance isn't a legit concern IMO since Zelda is not suited for high level competition. If transform were ever replaced with a new special, then perhaps it could improve her approach game or offensive capabilities. People don't like how Zelda is "overly defensive" or how she "turns the game into a chess match", so a new special that would allow her to smartly and safely speed up the pace of the match without losing her decent defensive attributes would be nice.

I guess that's fair. The only issue being that not everyone thinks she needs this help. Then there's another argument...




I would be fully for giving sheik a down B taunt move. But in all seriousness aside from people thinking Zelda could use buffs, is it that people just don't want Zelda and Sheik to be able to transform?? Because that's the only other reason I'm seeing.

 

[Downdraft]

I guess that's fair. The only issue being that not everyone thinks she needs this help. Then there's another argument...




I would be fully for giving sheik a down B taunt move. But in all seriousness aside from people thinking Zelda could use buffs, is it that people just don't want Zelda and Sheik to be able to transform?? Because that's the only other reason I'm seeing.

From what I've read in the Tier List Speculation thread recently, Ganondorf is considered a solid character. He was given a reflector, hover, and taunt replacement for Warlock Punch. If Ganondorf can receive several new tools, what's wrong with Zelda receiving one? Although it's not that simple. As for transform, I believe your observations are correct. The people arguing seem to be grasping for straws rather than presenting nontrivial problems that the move presents.

 

[Downdraft]

Conceiving a new move shouldn't be difficult. How about giving Zelda a special inspired by her canonical powers? Nayru's Love, Din's Fire, and Farore's Wind were granted to Link by the Great Fairies. In OoT, Zelda did however use light magic to restrain Ganon's final form, and she gave Link Light arrows in OoT and a Link Between Worlds. It'd be nice if she had an attack related to her actual canonical abilities. If transform were ever replaced, I'd propose a light magic attack that temporarily restrains an enemy, which would aid Zelda's offensive capabilities. It could be balanced by finding the right duration and startup times.

 

[WhiteCrow]

It'd be nice if she had an attack related to her actual canonical abilities. If transform were ever replaced, I'd propose a light magic attack that temporarily restrains an enemy, which would aid Zelda's offensive capabilities. It could be balanced by finding the right duration and startup times.

This would be the coolest thing for them to do, and to it I have a few ideas:

1) What if her down special launched a light arrow at a low angle downwards in front of her? She wouldn't even need a bow, she could just pull her arms back as if the bow was magical. If the arrow lands on the stage it sticks in place and remains as an active hit box. Colliding with the pinned arrow would cause light electric hitstun but not damage. Make it balanced by having the ground arrows disappear on a timer or they vanish when hit or when a Din detonates. It would give her an option coming down but you'd have to angle it right. Having an extra trap move that isn't too powerful would be really fun to mess around with. They could get fired at Shiek's needle range but it'd probably be broken.

2) What if her down special increased her gravity for a few moments? A golden light glows from below you and pulls you downward as a different type of boost movement option. The light pull wouldn't have a hit box but it would have great IASA frames to make it easy to wave land out of. Continuing to down would put you into a fast fall immediately and releasing down would return Zelda to her standard floaty fall speed.

I think 1) would be the most canon, but 2) would be the most fun to use. DI away from combos and light pull down while keeping your jump. Wave land off platforms> light pull> perfect on stage wave land. Light pul>dair. It'd be really interesting.

 

[4tlas]

I would be absolutely devastated if transform were removed. But I'm still happy to brainstorm ideas for a new move!

Zelda's huge weakness right now is her offensive game. Giving her the option to play more offensively could work, but I'd rather her gain a way to enable her defensive playstyle instead of homogenizing toward ANOTHER rushdown character. Projectile spam is annoying and stage control can be either useless or oppressive, so I think she has enough of both of those already in Dins (though I still liked multiple mines over the moving mine).

I propose she summons a fairy to heal her. Heals at a similar speed to Ivysaur's neutralB. This discourages opponents from camping her while otherwise not buffing Zelda in any way that FEELS oppressive to opponents.

Of course Sheik would need a new move too. My current thought is a "counter" where she literally throws a deku nut item on the ground upon countering, like a flashbang. This is again unlikely to feel oppressive due to how situational it is, but also gives Sheik an option that is not about quick movement and frame advantage but is instead about super hard reads. On the other hand, giving her this option may round her out too well.

Another option (that could also work for a replacement sideB) is something similar to Greninja's shadow sneak or Metaknight's dimensional cape. Again, situationally useful but for offensive hard reads. It could also give her another recovery option that is quicker and less punishable than upB but much less flexible, similar to Fox Illusion and Firefox.

I ended up talking more about Sheik. Oops. Problems of a Sheilda main.

 

[ECHOnce]

Idk guys. Still haven't been able to read through the thread's discussion on Zelda transform removal but...if they kill Sheilda in the only game Sheilda is actually an option, I might quit maining/semi-maining Zelda >___> I'd probably only use her for spacie MUs after that...gahh depressing thoughts