Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[Lil Puddin]

Same. Been solo Zelda since Melee. (Though occasionally I'll play a few matches as Palutena non-seriously for fun).

We're going to be in for some rough-*** matchups, Archie Brother <3

tbh I want to main someone else but I keep going back to Zelda.

pls send help

 

[Gay Ginger]

tbh I want to main someone else but I keep going back to Zelda.

pls send help

Our Bottom-Tier Kween does not tolerate deserters. The punishment for choosing a new main is actually doing well death.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I don't think age is a boundary. A lot of guys are in their mid 20s, and this st


I don't think Sheik is all that changed, honestly. She seems a tiny bit stiff compared to before, but even then, this player is doing virtually the same combos and conversions he has in Smash 4. He can still F-air me across the stage and can combo stuff like N-air (pretty sure it was N-air) to Bouncing Fish and Zelda will die at about 100-120 towards the edge. Maybe needles aren't as annoying and don't combo into Bouncing Fish? That's about it, really.

I still have to watch VoiD's video.


I just think I'd have a think a little instead of randomly spamming it in neutral. I'll probably reserve to pretty much only ledge traps and maybe heavy projectile spammers like Y.Link and Villager/Isabelle.

Spamming is the last thing I'd do with it. I still hold my opinion Down B spamming will be the Zelda meta's downfall, and not it's pillar.


Why.

Since you didn't seem to quite finish your first thought, I'll just clarify that I meant some gamers tend to not like it, when people younger than them beat them. Like they feel as the older gamer, they shouldn't lose to all the young whippersnappers.

As for why, it just seemed, with all the effects and angles, that the replay mode might have been intended for waifu photo taking, as much as recording in detail certain moves and things you pulled off. I don't know if that is actually the case, but I find it amusing to imagine it to be so.

Well, this isn't necessarily asking about the whole matchup, but that sole factor in it...but then again, you do make solid points I wouldn't have even known first place (like their wonky hurtboxes and them basically disappearing into the ground).

Thing is, I've decided to go all Zelda, no matter what. I won't go to secondaries, because it's not my style. I'm going to have (and have been) playing against this character. I also won't just throw out Phantom, because it's silly to base your neutral on that alone.

As to the Roller, I think I've been stupid enough to learn from it. My training partner will just eventually throw it out every now and then when he can't kill, and I find just avoiding it (running away, jumping or even just shielding), works. Hell, I got a few Heels by just shielding and going OoS.

Other than what was already said, patience is key in this match-up. There is little room for error against a good Inkling. Dashing Inkling is difficult enough, but I played my first SH aerial spamming Inkling yesterday and that was just immoral.

I think DI also might be playing a part, in why you can't hit them with LKs. I don't think it takes very much to avoid the sweet-spot, if they are watching for it.

My initial impression is that Zelda should do okay vs. most of the cast. I'm worried about how she'll fare against the Top Tiers, though.

Even so, it doesn't look like she'll have any match ups as god awful as Brawl Zelda vs. Olimar *shudders*, or Brawl Zelda vs. Metaknight. So, that's a huge plus lol.

I think she can handle top tiers, just has much less room for error, than is ideal. I think she has the tools to win every match-up, it just requires an inordinate amount of strain and burden on the player to do so. In this case it might be us players holding Zelda back.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I think she can handle top tiers

it just requires an inordinate amount of strain and burden on the player to do so

Pick one lol.

Your second statement really isn't all that different from Sm4sh Zelda, who had no truly unwinnable matchups but still had plenty of bad ones. If a matchup causes inordinate amount of strain and burden, it's an *** matchup lol.

 

[Katy Parry]

Inklings recovery is interceptible with nayrus. But you have to make sure.youre hitting them lower each time. I was edguarding an inkling and after 5 consecutive nayru edgeguards he used to land on stage instead of to ledge and couldn't get him in time.

 

[Eisal]

I suppose I can call myself a new Zelda main now.

As much as I enjoy Palutena and played her mainly in S4, her recent spike in popularity usually leaves me going to other characters.

Perhaps it is wrong of my calling Zelda an "underdog" but I am usually drawn to those characters.

I will of course still play, and enjoy playing Palutena, but I do think I will focus on Zelda a bit more.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Pick one lol.

Your second statement really isn't all that different from Sm4sh Zelda, who had no truly unwinnable matchups but still had plenty of bad ones. If a matchup causes inordinate amount of strain and burden, it's an *** matchup lol.

Erm no, they don't really contradict each other at all. Zelda was my first main in 4, until Cloud dropped on the scene and completely invalidated her. Once Cloud got the lead, he could camp at the other end of the stage and spam aerials, forcing Zelda to approach. Nothing Zelda had in her arsenal could help her approach without getting stuffed by that giant sword. Post-patch Cloud might be doable with careful play and use of perfect shield but that is only if the Cloud is aggressive and not playing optimally.

I used Cloud as an example, since he was my first ceiling, but let us invoke the almighty Bayonetta. Bayonetta is entirely based on punishing her opponents approaches. Imagine trying to use Zelda's laggy moves to approach on a character that completely dominates the air with insanely high aerial priority and ladder combos. Can you really imagine trying to hit a camping Bayo and not get Witchtimed and laddered into the blast-zone? Zelda in Smash 4 was bottom tier, because most of the cast could completely invalidate her by taking the lead and camping.

Opponents can't so easily camp her in Ultimate with the new and improved tools she possesses. Even with reflectors, she can still put an intense amount of pressure on her opponents and force them to keep moving. And her KO potential is so potent, she can end things pretty quickly.

When I said there is an inordinate amount of strain on the player, I meant in terms of playing her precise movekit. The strain isn't because of the opponents character, but how easy it is for the opponent to play their character and how difficult it is to play Zelda. Top tiers get a lot off of aerial spam, so it makes things difficult for the player, but Zelda can still win, because she is not limited by a potential cap anymore.

 

[Gay Ginger]

When I said there is an inordinate amount of strain on the player, I meant in terms of playing her precise movekit. The strain isn't because of the opponents character, but how easy it is for the opponent to play their character and how difficult it is to play Zelda. Top tiers get a lot off of aerial spam, so it makes things difficult for the player, but Zelda can still win, because she is not limited by a potential cap anymore.

What you're describing is a bad match-up. We're not going to feel an inordinate amount of strain against every character on the roster, so if we're routinely feeling it against the same set of characters (e.g., Top Tiers), that means Zelda is inherently at a disadvantage in those match-ups.

I don't want to have a long debate about this, though, because I've already said that it doesn't look like Zelda has any unwinnable match-ups. I have the impression that our opinions aren't actually that far away from each other and that we're mainly arguing semantics at this point, anyway.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Inklings recovery is interceptible with nayrus. But you have to make sure.youre hitting them lower each time. I was edguarding an inkling and after 5 consecutive nayru edgeguards he used to land on stage instead of to ledge and couldn't get him in time.

I had a feeling this is what I was missing, in terms of edgeguarding Inkling. It's good to know that Nayru's Love works as an edgeguard.

I think you might be able to Up-B into Inklings recovery onstage.

What you're describing is a bad match-up. We're not going to feel an inordinate amount of strain against every character on the roster, so if we're routinely feeling it against the same set of characters (e.g., Top Tiers), that means Zelda is inherently at a disadvantage in those match-ups.

I don't want to have a long debate about this, though, because I've already said that it doesn't look like Zelda has any unwinnable match-ups. I have the impression that our opinions aren't actually that far away from each other and that we're mainly arguing semantics at this point, anyway.

Well, alright then. I don't personally feel like the top tiers are a bad match-up and any difficulty is due to the Zelda player's current inexperience, not Zelda's limitations as a tool, which I feel is how we define bad match-ups, in Zelda's relation to other characters, not the players in relation to other players. Smash Ultimate Zelda, feels to me like a high performance high precision tool, that has a high learning curve, used by experts in their various fields, while Smash 4 Zelda is a bent screwdriver that takes some work on the users part, to do even basic jobs.

I just wanted to clarify, since I didn't think I adequately explained in my other post, but I'll stop now, since you don't seem to be interested in pursuing this any further.

 

[Ffamran]

Rain and Shogun apparently think that Zelda is high tier. The current video only covers from D to B and they don't talk about everyone, so when the next video is posted on December 28th, Zelda might not even be mentioned.

From the UCCI thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/competitive-character-impressions-2-0.464762/page-20#post-22867270.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Rain and Shogun apparently think that Zelda is high tier. The current video only covers from D to B and they don't talk about everyone, so when the next video is posted on December 28th, Zelda might not even be mentioned.

While I'm glad that Zelda is being recognized, I can't help but disagree with her exact placing. The Link's are overhyped I feel like, and I don't see the Belmont's being anywhere near that high, let alone above Zelda. And I have to scratch my head at Rob too, but maybe they know something I don't.

Nitpicks aside, I'm happy that things aren't going the way I feared, of people not understanding Zelda and that she's being recognized for the great character she is. The more I play and understand her, the more I feel like she can crack top tier.

Edit:And I didn't see Wario at first and kind of have to what at that.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I think Palutena is better than Zelda, and I feel fairly confident about that.

Also, why is Pokemon Trainer that low? They seem really good this time around. Sonic being that low is also interesting...

 

[Ffamran]

What the hell. So, the movement speed increases for the characters who didn't appear in Smash 4, are roughly the same as those who did. Here's the problem: most characters from Brawl to Smash 4 did get movement speed increases meaning those who didn't, didn't get a chance for that happening to them. Mario being a stupid example as he went from the old 1.5 average run speed to the new 1.6 average and then gained a 10% increase to 1.76 in Ultimate while his air speed was 0.86 in Melee, 0.94 in Brawl, 1.15 in Smash 4, and gained a little over the 5% increase to 1.208 in Ultimate.

Ultimate Wolf's 1.54 run speed is 10% more than his Brawl run speed of 1.4. If Wolf was in Smash 4 and had, say, a 1.45 run speed, then he could have had a 1.595 run speed. It might not be much, but it would have helped. If anything, if Smash 4 Falco had his Brawl run speed of 1.432, then he would he have ended up with a 1.5752 run speed in Ultimate with the 10% increase instead of the 1.619 he actually has. Some characters varied in how much their movement speed was increased like Ike only gained 0.007 increase to his run speed because that obviously makes a difference for him. The best part is when characters inexplicably have trivial nerfs to their movement speed. Young Link had a 1.0 air speed in Melee while in Ultimate he has a 0.966 air speed. Why the hell couldn't he just keep his Melee air speed. If it's such a problem for him to be that faster than Link or too fast compared to toon Link, then increase theirs. Even then, it's not like young Link having a 1.0 air speed is going to kill anyone. And then there's Wolf's walk speed nerf because why not. Oh, Wolf with a 1.3 walk speed is so scary. Also, screw Fox gaining a 15.625% increase to his air speed while Falco only gets the regular 5%. Sure, let's make Fox even faster. It's not like Fox was already fast on the ground and needed to be faster in the air. And it's not like Falco didn't want to be remotely average in speed when moving on the ground or in the air.

Edit: Note to self: Pichu's standing grab range is evil.

僕はこれバグだと捉えています。 pic.twitter.com/AAIziB2ktH

— たらことり(Tarakotori) (@tarakomac) December 24, 2018

 

[HotSummer]

I’m going full Zelda too, with occasional Palu / Young Link / Daisy. Our sis is actually sorta decent this time, we shall not disappoint her and be unfaithful !

 

[BJN39]

I can’t help but feeling that anyone saying Zelda is “high tier” at this point is still jumping the gun on her only substantial change being phantom with (and I can rightfully say) heavily smash 4 inspired Base.

At the same time her placement has merits with who she’s beside on that list versus who she’s below (are those tiers ordered? I assume not.) Zelda loses to longer range and speedy chars whom make up their top tier, and at very best Zelda could only make high tier gatekeeper with that kind of MU spread (at best, losing to top but going even with those around her and beating bottom tiers.) I can’t help but feel like she’ll end up having mostly slightly losing MUs with those near her on that list, though.

Oh, but Pika and Ike seem like they’ll beat her bad though, haha.

 

[Eisal]

I have such a hard time against Ganondorf. He really puts a punch on me playing as Zelda. It feels like he is so much faster compared to Zelda, even though I know he isn't. His reach seems crazy too.

I really gotta git gud with this.

Any pointers towards Ganondorf?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Lol I skip a day and you gorls make text walls

My late Christmas present came in the form of a Black Bara Santa and it's good.

Spoiler: wow black bara santa thnx

Speaking of unreasonably masculine things, I started playing this dress-up/fighting/crafting/social/moderately-cringy game called Gaydorado and...

I did play gaydorado for a bit a few months ago. (When I got a normal phone that could do those things lol) it was cute but very in your face bara gay and I was just waiting for the lewds but got bored lol.

Also I cant help but feel Jow's black bara Santa was in response to a call out sometime ago that he was a racist artist cause all his artwork except like 4 are white/asian lol but I still follow his work.

My initial impression is that Zelda should do okay vs. most of the cast. I'm worried about how she'll fare against the Top Tiers, though.

Even so, it doesn't look like she'll have any match ups as god awful as Brawl Zelda vs. Olimar *shudders*, or Brawl Zelda vs. Metaknight. So, that's a huge plus lol.

I dont think anything will be brawl olimar bad, but olimar is still stupid lol

I think she can handle top tiers, just has much less room for error, than is ideal. I think she has the tools to win every match-up, it just requires an inordinate amount of strain and burden on the player to do so. In this case it might be us players holding Zelda back.

Sounds like the past 2 games as Zelda ignoring brawl olimar.

Your second statement really isn't all that different from Sm4sh Zelda, who had no truly unwinnable matchups but still had plenty of bad ones. If a matchup causes inordinate amount of strain and burden, it's an *** matchup lol.

Idk sis cloud pretty much invalidated us as StoicP says below. I think only because of things like rage and the players we may have encountered werent ready to go full **** mode and didnt really understand Zelda helped us not feel as helpless as brawl olimar and most of the high tiers back in brawl, cause brawl falco invalidated us with jab alone lol

Erm no, they don't really contradict each other at all. Zelda was my first main in 4, until Cloud dropped on the scene and completely invalidated her. Once Cloud got the lead, he could camp at the other end of the stage and spam aerials, forcing Zelda to approach. Nothing Zelda had in her arsenal could help her approach without getting stuffed by that giant sword. Post-patch Cloud might be doable with careful play and use of perfect shield but that is only if the Cloud is aggressive and not playing optimally.

Actually cloud never had to approach us until he felt like it and only cause blade beam from across the screen is a pretty bad camp tool but you domt want cloud to get the limit Buffs and powers so we are forced to approach unless you were better at outplaying limit cloud, a big risk.

Opponents can't so easily camp her in Ultimate with the new and improved tools she possesses. Even with reflectors, she can still put an intense amount of pressure on her opponents and force them to keep moving. And her KO potential is so potent, she can end things pretty quickly.

Peach can still turnip camp Zelda and so can everyone else who could before the only new difference is Zelda can camp back so some basic cheese camping Zelda can win the camp war being diligent. Me and my peach friend literally circle camped each other around PS2 for 5 minutes at basically a stalemate in this game.

What you're describing is a bad match-up. We're not going to feel an inordinate amount of strain against every character on the roster, so if we're routinely feeling it against the same set of characters (e.g., Top Tiers), that means Zelda is inherently at a disadvantage in those match-ups.

I don't want to have a long debate about this, though, because I've already said that it doesn't look like Zelda has any unwinnable match-ups. I have the impression that our opinions aren't actually that far away from each other and that we're mainly arguing semantics at this point, anyway.

Well, alright then. I don't personally feel like the top tiers are a bad match-up and any difficulty is due to the Zelda player's current inexperience, not Zelda's limitations as a tool, which I feel is how we define bad match-ups, in Zelda's relation to other characters, not the players in relation to other players. Smash Ultimate Zelda, feels to me like a high performance high precision tool, that has a high learning curve, used by experts in their various fields, while Smash 4 Zelda is a bent screwdriver that takes some work on the users part, to do even basic jobs.

I think after the novelty of this new body and personality of hers wears off Zelda may not drop to the bottom but I dont think she'll be staying around very high because her same issues are still present and the current meta is high speed unga bunga or camp master 5000 both things zelda classically hasnt liked in addition to the unga bunga crowd also being sword users.

I have such a hard time against Ganondorf. He really puts a punch on me playing as Zelda. It feels like he is so much faster compared to Zelda, even though I know he isn't. His reach seems crazy too.

I really gotta git gud with this.

Any pointers towards Ganondorf?

Camp. Dat. *****. Dont respect him make him want to BAN•ZELDA

 

[Gay Ginger]

Idk sis cloud pretty much invalidated us as StoicP says below. I think only because of things like rage and the players we may have encountered werent ready to go full **** mode and didnt really understand Zelda helped us not feel as helpless as brawl olimar and most of the high tiers back in brawl, cause brawl falco invalidated us with jab alone lol

You're both probably right. My Wii U GamePad broke (thus couldn't connect online) around the time Cloud was released, and before Bayonetta was, so I was mostly talking from experience before those two came into the picture.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm already having opponents in Elite Smash refuse to approach me / actually run away and try to time me out with minutes left of the match. And I've got to say - unfortunately, the Phantom still doesn't help her force approaches very well against many characters. So, once more and more people get afraid of our Zelda, things are going to get harder. I think "High Tier" is most likely out of reach.

Oh, but Pika and Ike seem like they’ll beat her bad though, haha

I haven't crossed paths with any good/decent Ike players yet, but I agree that Pikachu seems like an awful match-up for us.

I think Pichu is also going to beat us pretty bad, too... Honestly, maybe even worse than Pikachu because their very small size, very fast speed, and insane attack power is an awful combination for Zelda.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I can’t help but feeling that anyone saying Zelda is “high tier” at this point is still jumping the gun on her only substantial change being phantom with (and I can rightfully say) heavily smash 4 inspired Base.

Zelda's kit is very diverse when you compare her to other characters, but her kit is also slow and lacking in reach as the balance factor. She doesn't really seem to specialize in any one field so everything she does has an easy solution to get around. She does well against big bois ofc and anyone who relies on slow cheese (King K Rool's crown/cannon ball/DA S U C C/etc). But at the same time, her range is very pin-point and her ranged options are predictable while not allowing her to be as mobile as other ranged characters.

Her Nair just needs to be fixed before we even start guessing which exact part of a tier she should be in. Nair was pretty much the one decent move she had that didn't screw her over entirely if it missed. And ironically, her new jab is faster but now it's worse since it can't force mistakes and ofc has end lag galore.

tbh a tier list at this time is stupid. We know nerfs (Inklings ez), buffs and fixes are coming. We should wait for the first official balance patch. It'll probably be coming out with the new fighters in February.

We can make a cheese tier list tho.

I have such a hard time against Ganondorf. He really puts a punch on me playing as Zelda. It feels like he is so much faster compared to Zelda, even though I know he isn't. His reach seems crazy too.

I really gotta git gud with this.

Any pointers towards Ganondorf?

She's just a tad bit faster than Ganondork, but Zoldo lacks range. She does really bad vs anyone with range that's the same speed (or just a tad slower) than her. But the trick with her is to be very active vs Ganondorf (stay close but out of his chokeslam range, try to harass with Phantom). He is a heavy character with medium speed/lowish speed and no ranged options. If he makes a mistake you can do something to punish him. If he whiffs a special move you can usually run in and grab him (all he can do is shield) so that's a free 10%+ dmg every time he messes up.

That's kinda Zelda's gig across the board. Use Phantom/Din to force a mistake or get some decent damage. And if she can't do that... Then... She's pretty much SoL or going to have an uphill battle.

You should also learn some of Zelda's weirder tricks that come in handy.

Farore's Wind 2 when recovering from below the stage. If you push Up B, hold up briefly and then quickly push down, Zelda will teleport upwards past the ledge and perform the 2nd his of Farore's Wind. It's useful vs people who stand directly on the edge or for people who are trying to spam Dairs. Depending how you can space it, you can use FW2's hit right on the edge for people who are trying to hang off the ledge to do Nairs or whatever. This is a skill that's very important to Zelda overall for safer recoveries/more options while recovering.

FW edge-canceling. You use Farore's Wind horizontally and appear just a smidge before the edge of a platform or stage. It will cancel the end lag and allow you to act. It is very good for surprise Dairs or just movement in general. But it is very hard to pull off consistently in the heat of battle. And someone who's paying attention is not going to fall for it more than a few times. Like. A 3/10 on the importance scale. But it's a cute thing to bust out if someone's playing the keep-away game from Zelda.

Lol I skip a day and you gorls make text walls

I did play gaydorado for a bit a few months ago. (When I got a normal phone that could do those things lol) it was cute but very in your face bara gay and I was just waiting for the lewds but got bored lol.

Also I cant help but feel Jow's black bara Santa was in response to a call out sometime ago that he was a racist artist cause all his artwork except like 4 are white/asian lol but I still follow his work.

Gaydorado better not have R rated lewds or else I will cry. :^(

And tbh I don't really fault Jow for having mostly ambiguously light-skinned dudes in his art. Jow tends to do white dudes and Asians. Still, there's a bunch of racism when it comes to gay communities and bara. Bodybuilding is moderately skewed too, but isn't racist (more so history resulting in white people having more money and bodybuilding is very expensive).

That's one of the reasons why I like Dream Daddy because it includes a diverse group (of dads) and To Trust An Incubus is pretty good because it's dark/tan/light/pale for the 4 alien bois and ofc 2 Asian dudes and a purple haired Asian gorl.

You're both probably right. My Wii U GamePad broke (thus couldn't connect online) around the time Cloud was released, and before Bayonetta was, so I was mostly talking from experience before those two came into the picture.

Also, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm already having opponents in Elite Smash refuse to approach me / actually run away and try to time me out with minutes left of the match. And I've got to say - unfortunately, the Phantom still doesn't help her force approaches very well against many characters. So, once more and more people get afraid of our Zelda, things are going to get harder. I think "High Tier" is most likely out of reach.

Elite Mode is a bad mode in general. You get there by either being good or being someone who is capable of running/cheesing a lot. It's basically a punishment mode that needs to be removed and the old Sm4sh online should come back. And ofc Zelda won't be high tier when the time for tier making comes along. Basically any character who can successfully run circles around others (or be devastating with their punishes and approaches) will be high tier

It's a shame there aren't many small maps. Zelda is devastating on smaller flat stages. The more platforms there are = the more places for her to waveland instead of being juggled relentlessly. But it also means there's more places for people to ezcamp her.

 

[BJN39]

We need to start trending the #FixZeldaNAir & #FixZeldaDtilt hashtags so that lady Sakutena sees. Those moves being like they used to would be low key crazy in ultimate.

 

[Gay Ginger]

We need to start trending the #FixZeldaNAir & #FixZeldaDtilt hashtags so that lady Sakutena sees. Those moves being like they used to would be low key crazy in ultimate.

I'll also add #RevertZeldaJab. Please Based Lady Sakutena...

 

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

Finally got a Switch and Ultimate so I can actually start talking here
I've been having a character crisis since this game was announced but I always go back to best girl so I guess its just meant to be.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Finally got a Switch and Ultimate so I can actually start talking here

Welcome!

 

[Ffamran]

BJN39 ,

if im reading these files correctly zelda fair sweetspot got a hitbox size increase from 1.9 to 2.2 truly the buff you zelda mains deserve *claps while trying to hold back tears*

— Kurogane Hammer (@KuroganeHammer) December 27, 2018

Watch her Bair not have its sweetspot size increased just because.

 

[BJN39]

By smash 32 her sweetspot will be back to Melee size at this rate. This is true Progress people.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Gaydorado better not have R rated lewds or else I will cry. :^(

And tbh I don't really fault Jow for having mostly ambiguously light-skinned dudes in his art. Jow tends to do white dudes and Asians. Still, there's a bunch of racism when it comes to gay communities and bara. Bodybuilding is moderately skewed too, but isn't racist (more so history resulting in white people having more money and bodybuilding is very expensive).

That's one of the reasons why I like Dream Daddy because it includes a diverse group (of dads) and To Trust An Incubus is pretty good because it's dark/tan/light/pale for the 4 alien bois and ofc 2 Asian dudes and a purple haired Asian gorl.

lol I never found any R rated but I was hoping to.

and yeah I was never mad at Jows art cause for what it was it was very good. Plus racism in gay society is a thing so no point getting upset as it wasnt like he never did any or refused to just didnt have many.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I have such a hard time against Ganondorf. He really puts a punch on me playing as Zelda. It feels like he is so much faster compared to Zelda, even though I know he isn't. His reach seems crazy too.

I really gotta git gud with this.

Any pointers towards Ganondorf?

As was already mentioned, you just gotta camp. Ganondorf is fast, but only certain moves of his are lagless. Stay out of the air to avoid his powerful aerials and watch out for his Upsmash and Down-B/Side-B. He's fast on the ground, but slow in the air, so use the Phantom to force him in the air and slow his movement. Carefully space Up-Tilt and Up-Smash when he's in the air to pop him up and then use Up-air to juggle. Up-air is disjointed, so don't worry about him trying to Down-B to the stage.

Try and have every move you make, either put him high above the stage or preferably off stage. Ganondorf is very weak above or off stage and can easily be juggled and edguarded. Use a combination of Din's Fire and Phantom to edgeguard and spike him if he trys to recover low. Be careful when spiking him and try to hit the sweet-spot, lest he grab you with his recovery and stage spike you, while getting another Up-B attempt.

Actually cloud never had to approach us until he felt like it and only cause blade beam from across the screen is a pretty bad camp tool but you domt want cloud to get the limit Buffs and powers so we are forced to approach unless you were better at outplaying limit cloud, a big risk.

Yeah, I don't know how I forgot about Limit camping.

Peach can still turnip camp Zelda and so can everyone else who could before the only new difference is Zelda can camp back so some basic cheese camping Zelda can win the camp war being diligent. Me and my peach friend literally circle camped each other around PS2 for 5 minutes at basically a stalemate in this game.

For me it's not the turnip, since I can just catch it or Phantom through it, but that forward air that she can just casually float over everything I have and smack me with. I can still win, but it's definitely a high-stakes camping match.

I think after the novelty of this new body and personality of hers wears off Zelda may not drop to the bottom but I dont think she'll be staying around very high because her same issues are still present and the current meta is high speed unga bunga or camp master 5000 both things zelda classically hasnt liked in addition to the unga bunga crowd also being sword users.

I can understand your frustration with the current meta, but I must say that I have a more optimistic view on Zelda's tier future.

I feel like I have only just grasped the basics of Zelda and still have been doing fairly well with her so far. Recently, I have been doing a lot of accidental 1000 IQ plays with the Phantom. Given that they are generally accidents, I lack the knowledge and foresight to follow up on them.

For instance playing against my friend's Falcon, who knocked me off and went out for an edgeguard, I charged Phantom like I normally do to cover my recovery. I managed to evade his edgeguard and make it back to the ledge and went to edgeguard him. I forced him into a high recovery, straight into the Phantom's slash for the KO. There wasn't anything he could do, he was just plain trapped.

I feel like those Phantom setups are going to be the advanced levels of Zelda and are going to require mastery of the basics, in order to successfully utilize them. Once someone can offload her general moves to their subconscious, they will be able to free their conscious mind to be able to think far enough ahead, to properly set those traps.

I'm starting to feel like Ultimate Zelda is akin to Smash 4 Rosalina and has endless potential, but is incredibly difficult to master. Rosalina is a meh character by herself, but with Luma rose to top 5. Just the simple fact that they can be at two places at once, is a hard thing for an opponent to counter and it's very easy for them to slip and forget Luma lurking nearby. I think it's possible to recreate something similar and setup the Phantom, in what seems like an odd place to the opponent, who will realize in the next few moves why it was placed there.

I already see this happen, when I accidentally place the Phantom on a platform, when my opponent is on the ground. I then approach and that sometimes makes my opponent instinctively react and try to aerial, only to be hit by the Phantom and placing them in disadvantage. They became too focused on what I was doing and forgot the Phantom was there.

I feel like if a Zelda player can start doing those things purposely and not just as a ledge trap, she can then control space to the level Rosa could and her inherent speed and range wouldn't matter, because your targeting a limitation of the player and possibly the human mind, not their character. If we were to not try to fight the opponent's character and exploit their weakness, but exploit the opponents weakness, in trying to keep track of two things at once in a high pressure situation, then she might be a force to be reckoned with. I'm thinking something akin to a 2v1.

I don't know if I personally will reach that level, but I think someone else might and that's why I remain optimistic.

 

[Nammy12]

Phantom is too slow to consider Zelda as a puppet character and those examples seem to rely more on the opponent making a mistake instead of being able to force them into that situation in the first place.
If you want stage control why not just play snake.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Phantom is too slow to consider Zelda as a puppet character and those examples seem to rely more on the opponent making a mistake instead of being able to force them into that situation in the first place.
If you want stage control why not just play snake.

Phantom's speed is perfectly fine. It's range and disjoint, more than make up any potential lack in speed. The point in those examples is that it is possible to trap your opponent in an inescapable option. And that your opponent has difficulty keeping track of two things at once. They didn't make a mistake, so much as I forced them into a situation where they had little time to think or no more options to maneuver out of the way.

Ultimate's speed means players have less time to think and less room for error, which means a being like Phantom has an easier time slipping under the radar like Luma did. Even top level players still got surprised by Luma, because in such a high pressure match, where you have to consider all sorts of different variables in a very short amount of time, it's very easy to make those kind of mistakes.

Phantom covers a lot of space at once and in wide arcs, so it is very good for covering a lot of space and trapping opponents.

 

[Nammy12]

>difficulty keeping track of 2 things at once
If good players can keep track of c4 I'm pretty sure Phantom won't be too hard to work with.

Charged Phantom is a linear move that always moves at the same timing after Zelda does a pose and is also a giant purple suit of armor. Luma was harder to keep track of because it was way smaller and had way more variability in attack and recall timing.

Ultimates speed also allows them to dodge Phantom easier.
Yeah Phantom covers a large horizontal space but you have like 3 seconds to jump back or go on a platform.

It's a nice edgeguard tool but putting them in edgeguard situations is what Zelda had trouble with in the first place.

 

[Ffamran]

We're getting closer to getting all the missing frame data values through datamining and I'm getting more anxious to see what changes (if there are any) Falco received. Also, apparently Pichu's Ftilt is basically a grounded version of Smash 4 Falco's Bair that is active for 8 frames because reasons.

Some of Pichu hitbox data

Ftilt
Self damage: 0.7
Damage: 8
Angle: 361
KBG: 150
BKB: 5

Fsmash
Self damage: 1.5

Multi-hit
Damage: 2
Angle: 361
KBG: 50
BKB: 10

Final hit
Damage: 8
Angle: 361
KBG: 123
BKB: 68

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) December 28, 2018

Pichu is really starting to feel like a Melee character in Ultimate. I say this since active frames, knockback, and damage was usually higher than in the recent games. Higher knockback was more on moves with vertical angles which makes sense since Melee's fall speeds were much higher and did not factor in gravity, so moves that sent people in a vertical angle really needed to have high knockback to do anything. Damage is damage. Some games have high overall damage while other games have low overall damage. Active frames, on the other hand, not really sure. Seriously, though, what the hell is even Pichu's Ftilt?

For FEH stuff, the merge update in February is going to make my Clair even bulkier. Also, more waifus in this game when we need more husbandos.

Spoiler: The 317th to 318th Summons

Spoiler: The 317th's stats

3* Athena: +Atk, -Def.

3* Boey: +Res, -HP.

5* Flora: +HP, -Def. Well, her Hoarfrost Knife still gives her high enough defense against dragons and units with Distant Counter, but it is a problem

5* legendary Hector: +Res, -Spd. I finally have a legendary hero of fire.

3* Setsuna: +Spd, -Res.

Spoiler: The 318th's stats

4* F!Corrin: +Def, -HP.

4* Jeorge: +Spd, -Res.

3* Nowi: +Spd, -Atk.

3* Raven: +HP, -Spd.

4* adult Tiki: +Def, -Spd.

 

[StoicPhantom]

>difficulty keeping track of 2 things at once
If good players can keep track of c4 I'm pretty sure Phantom won't be too hard to work with.

Charged Phantom is a linear move that always moves at the same timing after Zelda does a pose and is also a giant purple suit of armor. Luma was harder to keep track of because it was way smaller and had way more variability in attack and recall timing.

Ultimates speed also allows them to dodge Phantom easier.
Yeah Phantom covers a large horizontal space but you have like 3 seconds to jump back or go on a platform.

It's a nice edgeguard tool but putting them in edgeguard situations is what Zelda had trouble with in the first place.

I don't mean to be rude, but you are kind of coming across as one of those people who play a difficult character that isn't straightforward for a few matches and then makes all sorts of assumptions. You don't quite seem to understand Zelda on a basic level and that makes it a little difficult to discuss the finer details.

Phantom doesn't just cover horizontal space, but also vertical space both above and below. Its size isn't the issue, it's its range that can make things difficult. Unless you are very familiar with Zelda, you can't really eyeball the exact area the sword covers. It's too fast and Zelda putting pressure as well, doesn't give time to judge. Luma wasn't forgotten, because it was small, it was forgotten because Rosalina can put a lot of pressure herself.

Snake's c4 isn't hard to keep track of, because it isn't an active and moving hitbox. Both Luma and the Phantom update their positions, which require players to constantly pay attention. That's hard to do when Zelda and Rosalina are also updating their positions and do it much more freely. Spacing battles are battles where you must keep an eye on the opponents effective range and space at all times. Each move your opponent makes, means what they can and can't do movewise changes as well. It's not easy to constantly keep track of such minute details in the heat of battle.

Ultimate's speed may have been buffed, but the average human reaction time hasn't. You have much less time to make the correct decision, in something as fine as micro-spacing. It is much faster to act, than it is to react and the person acting, already has a plan in mind.

Jumping back or on the platform is the point. Controlling space isn't about hitting your opponent, but forcing them to act. Zelda is not always trying to hit the opponent with Phantom, but force them to do things like jump back or on the platform. Jumping back means giving up stage control, which means Zelda can move up and you have less space to work with. The less space you have to work with, the easier it is for you to be trapped. Jumping on a platform means being above your opponent, which is one of the worst places to be. The more you jump on the platform, the easier it is for Zelda to read and punish.

Zelda utilizes the Phantom to force an opponent to do an action, which she can then use to her advantage and gain stage control or trap them and punish.

 

[McKnightlíght]

I feel like if most zoners had Phantom they'd never use it.

 

[Nammy12]

I don't know why you keep talking about reactions like Phantom is some sonic level speed projectile. It has a highly telegraphed startup animation which gets cancelled if she recieved any hitstun including things like thunderjolt. And then after that it still has travel time to consider. Finally the move has no variation on timing so it's not like you can even mix them up.

Your entire argument is literally betting on the opponent not having any Zelda mu experience.

If the opponent knows what Phantom does then it becomes way less threatening outside of advantage situations because you're giving up neutral to charge it and any fast character will know that they are able to rush you down on reaction or shoot a projectile. Even if you're full stage away, it only travels half.

Believe it or not having an extra body on screen is not what makes things harder to react. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I play anime fighters but reacting to Phantom is nothing in comparison to the stuff you have to react to in tag games.

Charged Phantom has no timing variations. If you do the move, there is no surprise as to what or when it will happen. The only thing I have to worry about is Zelda approaching and you have at least 3 seconds to come up with a plan.

I don't know how many Rosas you've fought in 4 but the most common situation where Luma got a surprise hit is when you hit Rosa and went to continue your advantage state but forgot about Luma staying in the position you were in and got hit when she recalled it.
Aka variations.

Ironically c4 is hard to keep track of due to its small size and lack of indicator since snake can update its position frequently and has a lot of control over it.
Aka variations.

Overall zeldas main problem is gaining advantage state in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Has anybody noticed either Simon looks like a really manly Zelda, or Zelda looks like a really girly Simon.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I don't know why you keep talking about reactions like Phantom is some sonic level speed projectile. It has a highly telegraphed startup animation which gets cancelled if she recieved any hitstun including things like thunderjolt. And then after that it still has travel time to consider. Finally the move has no variation on timing so it's not like you can even mix them up.

Again, its not just the speed, but the power and range. Opponents have to respect it unless they want to get clobbered. Telegraph has nothing to do with anything. Simply seeing a Zelda charge it will make them act and respect it. Phantom can be released early and has multiple variations and area it covers. So yes it does have timing variations. It is not a standard projectile.

Your entire argument is literally betting on the opponent not having any Zelda mu experience.

That is not at all what I said. Actually read my posts.

If the opponent knows what Phantom does then it becomes way less threatening outside of advantage situations because you're giving up neutral to charge it and any fast character will know that they are able to rush you down on reaction or shoot a projectile. Even if you're full stage away, it only travels half.

I am an actual Zelda main. I know the weaknesses and the risks and when and where to use it. And I know how to counter those things. The opponent knowing what it does, really doesn't matter. You don't need to "give up neutral" when its hitbox is that large, you can release it early, and charge it while moving through the air. Having such a massive and powerful hitbox traveling half the stage is more than most characters can say.

Believe it or not having an extra body on screen is not what makes things harder to react. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I play anime fighters but reacting to Phantom is nothing in comparison to the stuff you have to react to in tag games.

I really don't care what games you play or how good of reaction time you have. This is Smash and no matter how good of reaction time you have, if there is a hitbox in front of you and a hitbox behind you and you are out of options, you are going to be trapped all the same.

Charged Phantom has no timing variations. If you do the move, there is no surprise as to what or when it will happen. The only thing I have to worry about is Zelda approaching and you have at least 3 seconds to come up with a plan.

Yes it does. There does not need to be a surprise, the point of the move is to make the opponent respect it and react to it. Zelda is not Ike or whatever playstyle you are currently trying to force on her. If I have the Phantom out I already have a plan and Zelda has other moves and projectiles, so she doesn't even need to approach herself.

I don't know how many Rosas you've fought in 4 but the most common situation where Luma got a surprise hit is when you hit Rosa and went to continue your advantage state but forgot about Luma staying in the position you were in and got hit when she recalled it.
Aka variations.

I actually played Rosa quite a bit. No, that was not the most common situation and was actually a rare occurrence, despite the memes about it. People forgot about Luma all the time, because they were worried about my Rosa gaining space and stage control. I'm starting to sense a trend here, about my actually playing the characters your trying to argue against me about.

Ironically c4 is hard to keep track of due to its small size and lack of indicator since snake can update its position frequently and has a lot of control over it.
Aka variations.

That's not how you use ironically and there is a pretty loud beep, indicating its been set. You don't even need that, you should be watching your opponent anyways. There is very little variation on what you can do with an explosive, that is required to be set and remotely detonated.

Overall zeldas main problem is gaining advantage state in the first place.

I don't really think you know anything about Zelda's problems or the first thing about her, period. I suggest actually doing some reading and have some playtime with these characters you think you know a lot about. None of what you have said has any relevance or is true about her playstyle.

 

[BJN39]

Well this looks....heated

I actually kind of agree more closely with Nammy’s assessment, tbh. Phantom, when used, doesn’t inherently make the opponent respecT it, OR at least it shouldn’t and won’t do so if people understand it better (bar some MU-dependent situations where a character either has no options to maneuver it or has a lot of them.)

Right off the bat, many reflectors can reaction reflect and unless it’s the full Delay variant Zelda actually can’t counter reflect in time. Zelda could risk getting into a reflect battle with some chars but is then sitting there waiting to do so instead of trying to capitalize on potential space control. If anything that delay just gives lots of players time to make a move. I think if released prematurely but at full charge, it is rather quick for a big projectile, though. Hmm, I wonder if Villager can pocket phantom to disable it in this game like some item projectiles.

Luna had a full moveset with several directional kill moves at sub 10F, wnd could be anywhere on the stage. Phantom only hits hard after at least 40F of Charging, so nearly 1 whole second. And kills well only after 50+ frames. It also is very telegraphed, even for its hitbox size at later charge. It’s hitboxes are more than Luma’s but also more predictable. Again, people who have more MU knowledge will probably be familiar with how quick Zelda can pop out higher charge phantom or where the uppercut hits relative to starting position.

Snake C4 can literally kill at the press of a button, be anywhere relative to snake, even on the opponent. Having MU knowledge means your space is constantly limited. With Zelda she’s working to constantly limit space, and ain’t doing bad, but after the hitbox, Phantom is kind of just a pushy wall for half a second. IDK why but they also made it kind of bad at holding its shield forward after attacking, so it doesn’t sap damage quite as well as one could hope.

Also, I think you’re discrediting Nammy rather heavily on playing other fighters. I’m not really sure why, because if anything Smash has some of the least complex gameplay, (at very least input intensity) and reaction/area control/spacing are just as relevant to many other games. It ain’t cute. If you need it to come from the mouth of a “certified Zelda main” then here, I do think Phantom is being overhyped right now because almost no one even knows how to handle it in a competitive match. They just cower in “what is this move” shock. It’s the kind of thing that gets characters reaction nerfed by complaining players during smash 4’s patch prime, actually.

It makes me uncomfortable how some are shouting from the rooftops how ‘amazing’ Zelda is all of a sudden when her only major change is no freefall din and phantom buffs. Din’s Fire has 80% the same traits and is still very weak outside edgeguards, multiple moves received only negligible buffs (dash Attack, Nayru’s) but remain the same from the last game, which I repeatedly warned is a bad sign of it happens, some of the minor buffs came with worse trade offs (Dtilt, NAir, arguable Ftilt’s changes too). Her LKs got decently better but her aerial kit is far from the bar it needs to reach for how dominant good aerials can be now. I know this is turning into a takedown of Zelda’s full kit, but it might as well. I spent multiple years trying to clear up misconceptions that many Zelda players had in SSB4 about the wildest of notions, and got labeled shady I’m sure, but there was an echo chamber of overly optimistic Zeldas last game that refused to even come here anymore because of Zeldawful jokes or more bluntly realistic viewpoints of Zelda’s kit, which was bad. I see a lot of similar claims popping up here right after release and I’m not convinced a lot of what we think of Zelda will stand once people have better MU knowledge of the char.

 

[Ffamran]

A few nitpicks and comments on this heated discussion.

[Ganondorf's] fast on the ground, but slow in the air

Ganondorf is one the slowest moving characters in the game and has been since Melee. In Ultimate, his run speed is 1.34, walk speed is 0.767, dash speed is 1.87, and his air speed is 0.83. The only speed he is decent in is fall speed at 1.65. Compare this to Zelda's run speed of 1.43, walk speed of 0.914, dash speed of 1.958, and air speed of 1.092. Zelda's a floaty with a fall speed of 1.35.

Phantom is too slow to consider Zelda as a puppet character and those examples seem to rely more on the opponent making a mistake instead of being able to force them into that situation in the first place.
If you want stage control why not just play snake.

Can Phantom Knight even be classified as a puppet or summon since it's more like a projectile or an assist? When I think of puppeteer and summoner characters, I think of characters who can call or command an active or constant participant to fight alongside them. Luma counts when Rosalina can tell Luma what to do, tell it to stay, come back, or have it move to a position, and unless Luma gets knocked out, Luma is always present and attacks alongside Rosalina. Other examples would be Carl and Relius from BlazBlue, Chaos from Under Night In-Birth, and I think Menat from Street Fighter. Phantom Knight wouldn't count when it only fights when Zelda calls for it and only does one type of an attack. Otherwise, it doesn't participate anywhere else; you can't command it to stay in place or go to position and hold it and you can't tell it to do anything else, but charge in an attack. Also, not the Ice Climbers or Olimar & Pikmin since they're more like tag team characters and the Pikmin are literally living ammunition.

Telegraph has nothing to do with anything. Simply seeing a Zelda charge it will make them act and respect it.

Then that is what telegraphing is. If you see an attack about to occur, then you are going to react to it. Slower moves are more telegraphed as a result.

I am an actual Zelda main.

Avoid ever saying this again. Just because you play, primarily or otherwise, and/or have extensively put time into a character does not mean you know everything or hold a more superior position over other people who do not play that character as their main, as much time as you have, as how you do, and so on. Not only does that reek of arrogance, but it also reeks of ignorance. You putting yourself above others can lead you to restrict yourself to only your beliefs, ideas, and experience and, thus, blinding you from learning from others and seeing different points of views.

I really don't care what games you play or how good of reaction time you have. This is Smash and no matter how good of reaction time you have, if there is a hitbox in front of you and a hitbox behind you and you are out of options, you are going to be trapped all the same.

Skills transfer over from different games and Smash isn't such a special entity that it has things other fighting games don't. Dealing with hitboxes in front and behind is not uncommon. Menat is a fairly mainstream example of that with how many people play Street Fighter V.

That's not how you use ironically and there is a pretty loud beep, indicating its been set. You don't even need that, you should be watching your opponent anyways. There is very little variation on what you can do with an explosive, that is required to be set and remotely detonated.

You're assuming people play with sound on or are listening to the game's audio. Some people don't if tournament players wearing headphones or earphones are any indication of that.

C4 is an explosive, but it is also a trap. Snake can place it anywhere he wants within reason including onto his opponent. In other words, it has positional variance.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

For me it's not the turnip, since I can just catch it or Phantom through it, but that forward air that she can just casually float over everything I have and smack me with. I can still win, but it's definitely a high-stakes camping match.

turnips are a very flexible projectile but the camping aside Peach still out paces Zelda.

I can understand your frustration with the current meta, but I must say that I have a more optimistic view on Zelda's tier future.

I feel like I have only just grasped the basics of Zelda and still have been doing fairly well with her so far. Recently, I have been doing a lot of accidental 1000 IQ plays with the Phantom.

Zelda and Rosalind stuff

Actually it's nice to see people approach a little bit and not ve overly campy unless they are a camp character, it's the best part of the early meta.

Let me ask you sis have you used Zelda in previous games extensively? I'm not asking about rank or anything just general play time because you say you are just getting the basics of Zelda down but seem to be ignoring that alot of Zelda hasnt changed that drastically since the last game. Even from brawl, Zelda primarily got mostly QoL changes that helped her be able to do things that other characters could do like combos and shield grab. Now she can camp better, but shes still not able to fully camp to force the approach even armed with a reflector.

Zelda can wall off alot of space but it's in sections and it's slow not enough to create truly complex traps. You can trick people into things but even these setups only work When Zelda has the time and space to do them

Rosalind even solo in smash 4 had 2 things Zelda did not speed and big not precise hitboxes, Luma was just icing on the cake because just speed alone helped rosalind get in and get out when she needed too and her hitboxes combined with luma made her hard to get in on. Drive by luma always forced players to be cautious or get rid of him first otherwise Rosalind can turn a disadvantage around very easily just die to a little tunnel vision, you didnt even need to be good with rosalind to do this. And once luma was gone rosalind still had the threat of his return so close range fighters had to rush her. Nobody HAS to rush Zelda because she doesnt have a tool that threatening. Rosalind could almost always stay on the defense and have others play her game or risk a time out meanwhile Zeldas hand is forced the moment she loses % advantage if people can camp her or just choose not to deal if they cant and wait for her to come forward. And back in smash 4 phantom was on a 13s timer.

Luma was always a threat whereas phantom is not and if someone is rushing you while you are putting phantom together Zelda is forced to make a decision since hitting her breaks him and while shes putting him together if he doesnt have enough HP you may still get hit and phantom gets broken, hes better but still not threatening if people understand him.

I've watched in my own matches and in videos people let Zelda charge phantom up because they dont know what he does or how he moves since only Zeldas cared about Zelda and most zelda players in the last game barely used phantom so hes partially unknown as a projectile. Villagers and isabelle's arent even pocketing him since they dont know they can. Players are respecting her space too much and if they are approaching are often wildly approaching letting Zelda do the defending like she wants too even if shes at disadvantage in percent.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I feel like if most zoners had Phantom they'd never use it.

Ye pretty much. The only time something would be welcomed is during 2v2 or FFA situations where there's too much going on. It'd give her instant area control. But it's still pretty garbage even when used in the most optimal situations - except edge guarding. It's just a shame all her KB angles throw people so high up that they can gently fall over Phantom back to the stage anyway. rip

Right off the bat, many reflectors can reaction reflect and unless it’s the full Delay variant Zelda actually can’t counter reflect in time. Zelda could risk getting into a reflect battle with some chars but is then sitting there waiting to do so instead of trying to capitalize on potential space control. If anything that delay just gives lots of players time to make a move. I think if released prematurely but at full charge, it is rather quick for a big projectile, though. Hmm, I wonder if Villager can pocket phantom to disable it in this game like some item projectiles.

Something to note, Zelda should always use delayed Phantoms (or under-charged Phantoms) vs reflectors. If she reflects back her Phantom it is usually enough to break their reflection and KO them very early or at least deal some great damage. So it is much better for a reflector to just camp Zelda - since most reflector users have ranged options that AREN'T garbage. I'm not sure if it's because her reflector has a good multiplier or if reflectors are just weaker this time around.