Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[Nammy12]

leg yarn is tempest trial reward

 

[Eremitaviola]

Basically the only reason I decided to try FEH was to not feel excluded when seeing all those tier memes. The leviatan variations make me wanna reinstall it for the first time to get all those "please don't leave us!" orbs. Moooore

 

[~The Koopa King~]

it's been so long since i even touched zelda...for whatever reason it feels awkward for me to try and use her

i thought i could at least make her my secondary but that doesn't seem to be the case

 

[Deleted member 189823]

combo testers on training mode, liek

d throw kick works over 100 bro

 

[Ffamran]

Has anybody noticed either Simon looks like a really manly Zelda, or Zelda looks like a really girly Simon.

All I could think of when I saw this.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Manly Zelda is my secondary.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Thanks for that positive and informative post. I agree with everything you said and you are probably right on the whole trauma and jadedness thing. I haven't seen any tournament play yet or followed any top Zelda players, but I'm going to start doing that now, so thanks for the player suggestions. I'll consider everything else you said as well and I am definitely planning on staying the course in regards to Zelda, so don't worry about that.

Y
The newest Japanese tier list places Zelda as A tier, higher than Bayonetta. That's exciting. Mew2King said he can't see her lower than high tier. Mew2King said that.

Indeed, I was excited about that. I always felt the Japanese players on average and Mew2King have the type of mindset needed to play characters like Zelda, so that is good to hear they feel that way. I played Lima last night and while I got bodied, I was sorely lacking MU knowledge and it was Lima. I still managed to take a stock and with a little more experience, I feel like I could have taken two. Bayo is still good, but those nerfs really hurt I think and the gap between the two has significantly closed since the previous game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

it's been so long since i even touched zelda...for whatever reason it feels awkward for me to try and use her

i thought i could at least make her my secondary but that doesn't seem to be the case

Forget everything you knew except BAN•ZELDA. it helps jumpstart the transition.

BAN•BAYO

for now Bayos nerfs prevent the dragfest that was in smash4 but Bayo still has her sass walk while Zelda's isn't as intimidating as before

 

[~The Koopa King~]

bayo is garbo

 

[Ffamran]

Thanks for that positive and informative post. I agree with everything you said and you are probably right on the whole trauma and jadedness thing. I haven't seen any tournament play yet or followed any top Zelda players, but I'm going to start doing that now, so thanks for the player suggestions. I'll consider everything else you said as well and I am definitely planning on staying the course in regards to Zelda, so don't worry about that.

Meru, from the Netherlands and our resident Peach/Daisy mod, sometimes plays Zelda. To what extent, I'm not entirely sure, but he tried using Zelda as a last ditch effort today against Gluttony's Wario for Ultimate Wanted #1 in Paris, France. Gluttony's a French player, Wario main, and I believe France's best Smash 4 player. Wario looks like a beast in this game as Gluttony and Tweek destroyed the two recent majors they attended. Tweek attended Let's Make Moves that happened yesterday.

I only know of one Japanese Zelda player, but I don't know if he's going to compete in Ultimate or has already since I couldn't find any Ultimate matches with him. His tag is Onpu. You can find Smash 4 footage of him, but I don't know how helpful that would be. Otherwise, recently there have been several Zelda players on footage on Tamisuma's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/terminalkai/videos. Tamisuma holds online tournament with various Japanese players competing from top players like Eim (Sheik), KEN (Sonic), Ron (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi), Some (Greninja), and Yoshidora (Yoshi). How skilled the Zelda players are and how well-known they are, I have no idea.

There is a Japanese Zelda crew or group, but I don't remember what their Twitter handle was. I think it was Twitter.

 

[Princess Toady]

Bayo is so underwhelming. I mean, I get her nerfs. But she would be so much more fun if she didn't lag after basically everything. It's okay if she can't kill till 200%, but her landing lag is ew.

Even SSB4 Zelda is faster than her now, lol.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I only know of one Japanese Zelda player, but I don't know if he's going to compete in Ultimate or has already since I couldn't find any Ultimate matches with him. His tag is Onpu. You can find Smash 4 footage of him, but I don't know how helpful that would be. Otherwise, recently there have been several Zelda players on footage on Tamisuma's channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/terminalkai/videos. Tamisuma holds online tournament with various Japanese players competing from top players like Eim (Sheik), KEN (Sonic), Ron (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi), Some (Greninja), and Yoshidora (Yoshi). How skilled the Zelda players are and how well-known they are, I have no idea.

There is a Japanese Zelda crew or group, but I don't remember what their Twitter handle was. I think it was Twitter.

Your overall post was quite helpful, but this part is exactly what I was going to be looking for. I wanted to see Zelda from a Japanese perspective as well, so thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

Bayo is so underwhelming. I mean, I get her nerfs. But she would be so much more fun if she didn't lag after basically everything. It's okay if she can't kill till 200%, but her landing lag is ew.

Even SSB4 Zelda is faster than her now, lol.

I didn't get too great of look, since I went from the two trash Bayos I've played, to one of the best, and I was a little overwhelmed. My limited impressions of that match, are that she can still compete at a high level, but a revamping of her overall playstyle and strategies might be necessary. I don't think she will be on the same level as before and that Bayo mains might dislike her current play now, due to it possibly being so different. Her aerials still seem to have a lot of range, possibly more than before, and Lima seemed to lead off with them quite frequently and they feel like they cover half the stage. So maybe she plays more range than speed now. Those ladders are pretty brutal on Zelda, though.

 

[Katy Parry]

Zeldas walk animation looks like she saw $20 on the ground across the room and is incredibly excited to get it lol

 

[BJN39]

If you can manage to tilt the stick like, literally 1 degree forward you get ha minimum speed walk and that’s pretty sassy


Yew have to work for it now tho

 

[HotSummer]

So, sis, I've been playing our true pop queen Zelda, consistently on the top of the Hyrulboard charts.
With my friends (including an Ike main, a Pikachu main, a Bayo main and a Chrom / Roy main), I might have the highest W/L ratio, traumatizing them left and right with our good pal Phantom and her Holy Lightning Kick.

But after all...God is a Woman, amirite ?

Spoiler

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zeldas walk animation looks like she saw $20 on the ground across the room and is incredibly excited to get it lol

the "I found money" walk lol

If you can manage to tilt the stick like, literally 1 degree forward you get ha minimum speed walk and that’s pretty sassy


Yew have to work for it now tho

but it's not as strong now that we are happy sass rather than resting sass

 

[Codebox]

I have a question. Not sure how it works, but I'm asking out of being curious. But I thought I'd make this because I've been hearing mixed opinions. Not here to start a war, but I'm asking as a curious Zelda main how is her actual viability? Is she actually better than Melee, Brawl and Smash 4? Or is she just more of the same with some gimmicks tact on? For instance I love some of her changes (Dins, Phantom, Farore's, Jab) but dislike other ones (D-Tilt, F-tilt and NAir) With so many mixed opinions it's hard for me to tell. It's honestly making me conflicted about how she'll actually stack up. I've mained Zelda since Melee. But it seems the hype surrounding her has died out. Especially considering how she has a lot of the same weaknesses. Where do you guys see her?

How does the Phantom actually help neutral or disadvantage state? I'd love to see a guide video on how she actually stacks up or the utility she brings. Just as a side note I know patches will happen in the future, if so what changes do you think Zelda needs? Again I'm new to this and not exactly sure how this works, but I'd thought I'd ask considering I'm seeing very mixed opinions. Feel free to fix anything or provide any sort of missed insight I may be missing out on. Just thought I'd want a discussion.

 

[Mad Duck]

I have a question. Not sure how it works, but I'm asking out of being curious. But I thought I'd make this because I've been hearing mixed opinions. Not here to start a war, but I'm asking as a curious Zelda main how is her actual viability? Is she actually better than Melee, Brawl and Smash 4? Or is she just more of the same with some gimmicks tact on? For instance I love some of her changes (Dins, Phantom, Farore's, Jab) but dislike other ones (D-Tilt, F-tilt and NAir) With so many mixed opinions it's hard for me to tell. It's honestly making me conflicted about how she'll actually stack up. I've mained Zelda since Melee. But it seems the hype surrounding her has died out. Especially considering how she has a lot of the same weaknesses. Where do you guys see her?

In my opinion,the new airdodge mechanic combined with her buffed Din's Fire,Phantom, and easier to land (?????) Fair and Bair makes her bait-and-punish game much better, she is still weak to rushdown characters/playstyles and while her approach is better now,it's not so stellar. I think she might be Mid Tier,High Mid at best. I want to say that this is just my opinion formed with my gameplay experience,you guys are invited to prove me wrong if this is incorrect or misleading.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Especially considering how she has a lot of the same weaknesses. Where do you guys see her?

I think her advantage state got much, much better, but her disadvantage state and her neutral (for MUs where the Phantom cannot effectively wall) are worse than in Smash 4. Her strengths got better, but I also think her weaknesses might be worse, too, as she's easier to juggle and getting back to stage from the air can be tough. Many of her bad MUs still seem bad from a first glance.

I think, overall, she's the best incarnation of Zelda to date, though. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say she'll likely end up on the higher end of Low Tier or the lower end of Mid Tier.

 

[Lavani]

I have a question. Not sure how it works, but I'm asking out of being curious. But I thought I'd make this because I've been hearing mixed opinions. Not here to start a war, but I'm asking as a curious Zelda main how is her actual viability?[...]Where do you guys see her?

My current impression's that she looks better than in 4. Buffed Phantom/Din's and better hitboxes are nice changes, and with the upB option select being a thing she doesn't need to react/predict for Farore's OoS anymore.

I don't know that I'd label her as good, but I feel she has enough going for her that I could safely call her Low rather than Bottom this time.

How does the Phantom actually help neutral or disadvantage state?

With regards to neutral, it's a large, threatening projectile that Zelda isn't committing to herself. With 4's phantom, you were stuck in place for the charge as well as most of the attack. With ultimate, you're free to do whatever after the charge, meaning you can advance alongside it and cover what it doesn't (grab them if they shield it, lightning kick them out of the air if they try to jump over it, etc). It's a tool Zelda can use to control space and by extension how her opponent moves, which is something her kit's been sorely lacking every iteration up till now.

I think the extent of its use in disadvantage would be covering your recovery (summon Phantom while falling, double jump/upB to ledge while Phantom attacks). From what I've seen people underestimate its vertical reach, so you can snag surprise KOs on people hanging out at the ledge if you send the Phantom beneath it. It's slow though, so probably not something you'd commit to against characters with good offstage/edgeguarding.

 

[Aussie1024]

I think my opinion is about the same as everyone who has posted before me. I haven't been a Zelda player for too long, so I'm not as knowledgable with her as most of you. I played her in Brawl, PM, and Sm4sh for about a month before Ultimate's release. I got a decent feel for her overall game, her strengths and weaknesses. From my short experiences with her in those iterations, I can say this is her best game as well.

Phantom does give her a handy weapon in neutral for offense, pressure, and walling. It gives her a tool she's never had before. She's never been able to give good pressure to her opponent. Her aerials are still on the subpar side, but they are easier to land (particularly fair and bair), and the buffed frame data allows you to do more out of them.

I still say she's on the weaker side because she still gets beaten by swords and speedies. She is still at a disadvantage against them because they can still rush down on her and not give her time to set up her neutral game. Once they get in on her, it's goodnight.

I believe she ends up on high-low or low-mid tier. She's got enough tools to be a viable character and not be completely helpless like past games, but she still retains some of the same weaknesses that keep her from going any higher.

 

[McKnightlíght]

I have a question. Not sure how it works, but I'm asking out of being curious. But I thought I'd make this because I've been hearing mixed opinions. Not here to start a war, but I'm asking as a curious Zelda main how is her actual viability? Is she actually better than Melee, Brawl and Smash 4? Or is she just more of the same with some gimmicks tact on? For instance I love some of her changes (Dins, Phantom, Farore's, Jab) but dislike other ones (D-Tilt, F-tilt and NAir) With so many mixed opinions it's hard for me to tell. It's honestly making me conflicted about how she'll actually stack up. I've mained Zelda since Melee. But it seems the hype surrounding her has died out. Especially considering how she has a lot of the same weaknesses. Where do you guys see her?

How does the Phantom actually help neutral or disadvantage state? I'd love to see a guide video on how she actually stacks up or the utility she brings. Just as a side note I know patches will happen in the future, if so what changes do you think Zelda needs? Again I'm new to this and not exactly sure how this works, but I'd thought I'd ask considering I'm seeing very mixed opinions. Feel free to fix anything or provide any sort of missed insight I may be missing out on. Just thought I'd want a discussion.

Sm4sh Zelda

Spoiler

Ultimate Zelda

Spoiler

 

[BJN39]

Eauxkay hew did this?

 

[Lavani]

nvm zelda sucks

 

[Lorde]

Spoiler: feh stuff

I saved up like 150 orbs or so for the Winter's Envoy rerun, and I was lucky enough to summon two Winter Lissas and a Winter Chrom! One LIssa was +HP -spd, the other was +atk -res, and Chrom is completely neutral. Winter Chrom has been my most wanted unit for a while now, so I am happy to have pulled him, and getting a good IV Winter Lissa is cool because her art is incredible and she already comes with the most broken skillinthe game. The bad IV Lissa was immediately used to give BF to Chrom. I also pulled a few circles on the new Aqua LHB, and I got a +res -atk L!Marth and a completely neutral Helbindi (both are units I haven’t summoned before). I would have preferred Hector and Flora instead, but the RNG gods are cruel.


New Years!Laegjarn being the next TT reward is pretty cool, even if the lance cav pool is bloated. She's a pretty decent unit and comes with good fodder (def tactic at 4* and chill res at 5*, and new inheritable lance with built-in chill def). NY!Gunnthrá's art looks amazing and she's an okay unit, but I already have a +spd L!Ryouma, so I don't really need her. Hríd is our first defensive sword flier, and also is the slowest flying unit? I can't think of any other fliers with less than 19 spd at neutral. Laevatein is another troubadour so w/e

 

[Codebox]

I think her advantage state got much, much better, but her disadvantage state and her neutral (for MUs where the Phantom cannot effectively wall) are worse than in Smash 4. Her strengths got better, but I also think her weaknesses might be worse, too, as she's easier to juggle and getting back to stage from the air can be tough. Many of her bad MUs still seem bad from a first glance.

I think, overall, she's the best incarnation of Zelda to date, though. If I had to hazard a guess, I would say she'll likely end up on the higher end of Low Tier or the lower end of Mid Tier.

Interesting I've noticed that actually. I think as long as she can keep Phantom in Advantage state she'll have a much easier time surviving or keeping pace of the match. It's mainly just people who can get past her Phantom walls that'll throw her away basically. I'd say Zelda has an okay disadvantage if they can't reliably get around Phantom as much. How are they much worse than Smash 4 actually? Is her advantage state to keep her out of bottom? I just figured she couldn't do anything in 4. lol Her character archetype is built around having sword and speedies be her bane so I'm okay with that as an inherit weakness, I just want more neutral options. lol That was honestly my guess as well, I'd say Low Mid or High Low is a suitble spot for Zelda. I just want her out of bottom 5 or bottom 10. lol

What buffs do you think she'll need to have a better time surviving? Interested to see your thoughts?

 

[~The Koopa King~]

to me it just feels really awkward trying to use zelda like there's something missing I've never been a big zelda player before but trying to use her here is just something else

I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be doing

 

[Gay Ginger]

How are they much worse than Smash 4 actually?

I think Zelda's disadvantage is worse mainly because of the game mechanic changes. The speed boost to most of the cast, end/landlag reduction on aerials, and physics mean Zelda gets combo'd/juggled in the air worse than before.

Zelda's neutral is worse, in my opinion, because they changed her three previously most valuable moves in neutral: Jab, D-tilt, and N-air. Jab is less safe and doesn't cover the same range as before, and I think that hurts her. (There was a short discussion not too far back about her new Jab vs old Jab if you haven't already seen it). D-tilt no longer has much reward on it, so it's not nearly as useful. And N-air has problems reliably connecting. See that video above for more lol. So, now when Phantom cannot keep her opponents away, she's left with less range, less safety, and less reward in her neutral game.

Is her advantage state to keep her out of bottom?

I think so. I don't think she's Bottom Tier this time around.

What buffs do you think she'll need to have a better time surviving?

I think she needs more range in neutral. She needs to be able to stuff approaches better and more safely so she can prevent herself from losing neutral and entering disadvantage so often.

to me it just feels really awkward trying to use zelda like there's something missing

Zelda having a functional neutral is what's missing lol

 

[StoicPhantom]

but I'm asking as a curious Zelda main how is her actual viability?

I think it's fairly good. I struggled a lot at the beginning and was considering putting Ultimate as my least favorite Smash, due to how seemingly brainless advantage and some characters were in general. I've since figured out what is intended for you to do in Ultimate and have had a more positive outlook since. My opinion is now similar to Dabuz's, in that Ultimate isn't that different to 4, just advantage and disadvantage ease has been flipped. Most of the hard work is now how to get out of disadvantage, not how to stay in advantage. Once I finally realized that, I set about figuring out how to adapt Zelda to the new meta.

I haven't fully figured out all her moves yet, and am still missing Up-Smash and Dsmash, but I found quite a lot of applications for her others. Up-Tilt and Up-air are good juggle tools and are capable of not letting anyone back to the stage, just as well as anyone else. Nair is good for keeping out the opponent and setting up a space "bubble" by hitting those angles and areas that would be awkward for other moves. Jab's applications have already been gone through, but covers quite a lot of stuff up close. Phantom is good for all ranges, provided you use it in the appropriate context and is part of what makes Zelda good in this game.

I've since taken those and hashed out a general style for myself, by baiting my opponent to me and using Zelda's defensive base to rack up damage, then hitting them hard enough to setup an edgeguard. Phantom not being useful against rush down, isn't an issue, because I primarily use it to force approaches. Instead I use dash and Nair and Up-Tilt to space carefully around approaches and force them to overextend, then use Zelda's high damage combos and knockback to setup edgeguards and juggles.

All characters have a terrible disadvantage this time around, so use that to your advantage to setup frame traps and ledge traps. Most people taking to the air to avoid Phantom, is actually good, because it means you can catch air-dodges or trap them on platforms. Up-air is heavily disjointed and will trade with most Dairs at worst and its shield-stun can make it easy to chamber another Up-air quickly, on a platform camper. Even if they jump, Zelda's DJ and Up-airs range can still catch them and put them further in a bad spot.

Zelda has one of the best advantages I've seen, and I'm willing to bet one of the best, in terms of edgeguarding in a least this game. Use that to balance her poor disadvantage and you should find yourself going at least even in most games. I personally feel she is a solid high tier and I haven't even found all she has to offer yet.

But it seems the hype surrounding her has died out.

I think the hype was largely around her aesthetic redesign, and her high learning curve brought that down and them back to reality. I don't think you should take it as a bad viability sign.

How does the Phantom actually help neutral or disadvantage state? I'd love to see a guide video on how she actually stacks up or the utility she brings.

The Phantom's applications are very broad and situational, so I don't know that a video can adequately cover them, at least not currently, when we are still figuring it out. It's likely going to be one of those things you will have to experiment and get a feel for, yourself. A lot of it is going to be getting a feel for its range, speed, timing, and how your opponent responds to it, and that's not something a video will help with.

To get you started, experiment with how the overhead slash affects opponents trying to approach from the air and how the horizontal slash can affect opponents on the ground and off stage. You can then go from there and experiment how the upwards slash affects things diagonally, as well as below and how the lower charges of kick and punch can help with the closer ranges, that are just outside of Zelda's base kit. Finally you can start experimenting with how the shielded version, changes things with the other examples and how it relates to countering your opponents more powerful Phantom busting moves and projectiles as well.

Just as a side note I know patches will happen in the future, if so what changes do you think Zelda needs?

I don't feel like I've figured out enough about Zelda's meta to adequately answer that, unfortunately.

vidya

Maybe it's the slow-mo, but the Zelda in this video seems to be DIing out of their Nair or is coming at an angle that will have the finisher, DI into the space around the hurtbox and not adjusting for that. I don't do much DI after the initial hit, unless I'm adjusting for angle or countering my opponent's. The only times I have this problem, are when I accidentally DI too much or when I purposely do so, to gain stage control or go for a more advantageous position or hit.

I feel like this video explains the discrepancy in experiences people have, regarding Nair.

 

[Codebox]

I think Zelda's disadvantage is worse mainly because of the game mechanic changes. The speed boost to most of the cast, end/landlag reduction on aerials, and physics mean Zelda gets combo'd/juggled in the air worse than before.

Zelda's neutral is worse, in my opinion, because they changed her three previously most valuable moves in neutral: Jab, D-tilt, and N-air. Jab is less safe and doesn't cover the same range as before, and I think that hurts her. (There was a short discussion not too far back about her new Jab vs old Jab if you haven't already seen it). D-tilt no longer has much reward on it, so it's not nearly as useful. And N-air has problems reliably connecting. See that video above for more lol. So, now when Phantom cannot keep her opponents away, she's left with less range, less safety, and less reward in her neutral game.



I think so. I don't think she's Bottom Tier this time around.



I think she needs more range in neutral. She needs to be able to stuff approaches better and more safely so she can prevent herself from losing neutral and entering disadvantage so often.



Zelda having a functional neutral is what's missing lol

Personally I think Zelda's Jab is better here, mainly because it can be used to stop approaches and a good get off me move (Zelda was lacking it outside Nayru's which is punishable after a while) Not to mention it stops being useful at around 40% aside from following into Dash attack (which wasn't that good in Smash 4) I also find it got out ranged often. I personally think Zelda should have both jabs. Keep the rapid jab the way it is, but make standard jab the way it was in Smash 4, that way she gains the applications of both Jabs. I'd say give D-Tilt it's Smash 4 angle and make Nair longer/connect all the time and she'd be good to go. Also F-tilt should have more range, it seems to whiff a lot. lmao

I mostly see this benefitting MUs she already lost to begin with, meanwhile other characters did get nerfs as well.

 

[Gay Ginger]

and am still missing Up-Smash and Dsmash

U-Smash can be used to catch opponents getting up from the ledge because of its multi-hits. You can net some early KOs this way if you mix it up or get a good read. I find that it's also decent for trapping landings, especially if paired with the Phantom. The move is decent, in my opinion.

D-Smash, however, I don't use very much. I guess it's an OK get-off-me move, but she has better options for that. It can be a good semi-spike near the edge because it sends them low, so if you can knock them off stage and they have a bad recovery you took their stock. It can also set up for an nice edgeguard because of how low it sends them.

Jab1 -> D-Smash at the ledge is good if you can find the opening for it.

Along with F-tilt, D-Smash is probably my least used move, though.

 

[Princess Toady]

F-Tilt can find some use if you want to two-frame opponents or catch them by surprise if they stay too long on the ledge. It's a work-only-once-in-a-match kind of option, but I've found success using it to kill opponents trying to stall a little too much. They don't expect the downward angle at all and if spaced correctly it can net you an early KO depending on the character you are facing.

It works cause it has a little more range than her down tilt as far as I've observed (either that or you can condition the opponent by down-tilting closer to the ledge that way they'll believe they're safe from Zelda's F tilt when they really aren't).

While the angle is slightly worse (imo), the fact that you can't run through your opponent in this game helps its viability a little. I still feel like this move should be safe on shield if spaced correctly but oh well.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I do use F-tilt sometimes, but not very often.

Pivot F-tilt is an okay retreat option. Up-angled F-tilt can be an anti-air in certain situations, and down-angled can catch small characters occasionally.

My most frequent use of F-tilt, however, is as a (relatively) quick punish when her other ground moves either a) won't reach or b) F-Smash wouldn't be quick enough to net the punish.

I really want to like F-tilt, but unfortunately it's just not a very good move

 

[Aussie1024]

I do use F-tilt sometimes, but not very often.

Pivot F-tilt is an okay retreat option. Up-angled F-tilt can be an anti-air in certain situations, and down-angled can catch small characters occasionally.

My most frequent use of F-tilt, however, is as a (relatively) quick punish when her other ground moves either a) won't reach or b) F-Smash wouldn't be quick enough to net the punish.

I really want to like F-tilt, but unfortunately it's just not a very good move

Yeah it's not. I like to use it as a decent get-off me option in a combo, but there are times when I use that it puts me in a bad position. Still trying to figure out when I can use it safely and properly

 

[Gay Ginger]

the fact that you can't run through your opponent in this game helps its viability a little

True.

Though, I think the move is worse in this game than in previous games, and I think it's mainly due to changes to gameplay mechanics. It wasn't very good in Smash 4, but even before its startup got reduced to 10 frames, I still found it more useful than I'm finding it in Ultimate. I think the faster and more aggressive gameplay makes it harder to space properly given its relatively slow startup and very precise hitbox, and despite losing 3 frames of endlag, characters being pretty much universally faster makes it feel even more unsafe...

Still trying to figure out when I can use it safely and properly

Honestly, outside of punishes I feel like the move is not safe to use. It's probably best we don't use it very often, which is unfortunate given that it's one of her longest ranged ground moves.

I mean, it's more unsafe than many Smash attacks, but with a lot less reward...

 

[Ffamran]

Maybe it's the slow-mo, but the Zelda in this video seems to be DIing out of their Nair or is coming at an angle that will have the finisher, DI into the space around the hurtbox and not adjusting for that. I don't do much DI after the initial hit, unless I'm adjusting for angle or countering my opponent's. The only times I have this problem, are when I accidentally DI too much or when I purposely do so, to gain stage control or go for a more advantageous position or hit.

I feel like this video explains the discrepancy in experiences people have, regarding Nair.

So, DI'ing refers to when the opponent is hit and alters their launch trajectory. SDI'ing is when they're being hit by a move and trying to shift their position during an attack. This usually would happen with multi-hit moves if the opponent reacts to that since there's more time essentially compared to be being hit by a single hit attack. Smashboards has a Smash dictionary: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/.

SSB wiki's page on directional influence: https://www.ssbwiki.com/directional_influence, and smash directional influence: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_directional_influence.

Anyway, you are partly correct about the issue of Zelda's Nair and by extension Falco's Nair because his is suffering the same issue in Ultimate is how and where they're hitting with Nair which in this case seems to be with the back hit and rising or moving too much where the hitboxes aren't taking account for those weird hits. The problem with this is how Zelda's Nair worked in the previous game. In Smash 4, Zelda's Nair's loop hits, so the hits before the final hit, had 366 hit degree angles. Falco's Nair's loop hits were given 367 hit degrees in 1.0.8 Smash 4. These are weird angles, aren't they? You'd think they'd do something like send you in a circle (360 degrees) and a few more degrees, but they're part of a group of special hit angles called autolink angles. In general, autolink angles force the opponent to move with the attack. As a result, they're mainly used for multi-hit moves, especially aerials because where you're usually in constant motion while in the air, to allow them to connect better. Not all multi-hits use them and some of them work very well without autolink angles like Fox's Dair never used autolink angles.

Back to Zelda's Nair. With the way Zelda's and Falco's Nairs drops people at times, my suspicion is that for whatever reason, their loop hits don't have any kind of autolink angle. Falco's was a more recent change as his didn't have autolink angles until a patch and resulted in some nutty things you could do with his Nair in Smash 4, but Zelda's Nair had 366 hit angles since launch Smash 4 where it seems like it was the solution to making it more consistent compared to Melee and Brawl Nair even if those didn't have issues with connecting since Ultimate for the most part seems to have pushed for multi-hits being more reliable with rapid jabs being much faster in transition from the previous jab state to the finisher and hitting faster, Samus's Uair being more reliable than in Smash 4 where for whatever reason compared to Sheik's Uair, it didn't have autolink angles, or moves that used to intentially not connect their multi-hits like Ganondorf's Nair pre-1.1.3 Smash 4 and Link's Fair being altered to connect their hits. So, that leaves the question why Zelda's Nair is having issues in this game. Falco's at least you can justify not connecting well because of what he could do with it and that being given its Brawl landing lag gave him back the ability to use falling Nairs as hit confirms.

Here's SSB wiki's page on autolink angles: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Autolink_angle. Here's Smash 4 Zelda frame data thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-great-fairy-fountain-ii-zelda-data-research-repository.370698/.

1.0.8 Smash 4 Falco Nair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGyX0ootF0Q. Falco's air speed isn't that high, but note how Nair's loop hits are keeping his opponent near the center of Falco regardless of how he's hitting them or where and forcing them to move with Falco. That's what both 366 and 367 hit angles do with the difference being that the 367 hit angles, the ones on the loop hits of 1.0.8 Smash Falco's Nair, does not alter the launch momentum of the opponent from the hits' knockback according to the page on the wiki.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a video about Smash 4 Zelda's Nair since hers didn't gain autolink angles in a patch, but some hitbox changes, unlike Falco where it drastically altered how his Nair worked.

Compare that to what's happening with Zelda's Nair where the opponent is receiving hit stun and knockback, but they're not moving with Zelda. I don't know if you play Falco, but you can also compare this by using his Nair and Fair and seeing how the opponent is reacting to their loop hits. The loop hits on Falco's Fair has 366 autolink angles. Or you could try using Fox's Fair.

F-Tilt can find some use if you want to two-frame opponents or catch them by surprise if they stay too long on the ledge. It's a work-only-once-in-a-match kind of option, but I've found success using it to kill opponents trying to stall a little too much. They don't expect the downward angle at all and if spaced correctly it can net you an early KO depending on the character you are facing.

The issue with Zelda's Ftilt being used to two-frame people is that it's only active for 1 frame. It works, but it doesn't have as much leeway compared to other moves with 2 to 3 active frames or in the case of Pichu's stanky leg (Ftilt), 8 active frames. Oh, did I mention that Pichu's Ftilt is frame 5, has 13 recovery frames, and can kill?

Edit: I forgot to tag BJN39 for Zelda Nair stuff...

Edit 2: Edit Harder: FEH.

Spoiler: The 319th to 320th Summons

Spoiler: The 319th's stats

3* Donnel: +Def, -Res.

4* Maria: +Def, -Atk.

5* Nephenee: +Def, -Spd. That merge update can't happen any sooner.

3* Stahl #1: +Atk, -Res.

3* Stahl #2: +HP, -Spd.

Spoiler: The 320th's stats

4* Gwendolyn: +Res, -Def.

4* Lissa: +Def, -Res.

3* M!Robin: +Res, -Def.

3* Setsuna: +HP, -Atk.

3* Wrys: +HP, -Atk.

Also, freebie 4* Draug (+Def, -Spd) because I don't care enough about the previous New Year's banner to do a full summon. I'd love more NY! Camillas and a flying dancer, but yeah.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Happy New Year Gorls ~

 

[Ffamran]

Yo, could someone do this with Zelda, especially with her walk? I want to see Zelda walk in slow motion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[EODM07]

God damn. Been almost 2 weeks since I last visited SB. It's a new record for me. :V

Anyway, what's up Gay Mergirls?

Hope everyone is having a good 2019 so far.

Now onto stuff I've accquired! I got myself the SEGA Mega Drive Classics collection for Nintendo Switch, and I've played roughly about 20 of the games on the system. And out of all of them, I've only managed to finish one of them. Being Light Crusader, which is actually really fun tbh. And my mother got excited for it too, since there was her favourite game in the collection too, Shining in the Darkness. So all is good.

I also got a figure of my waifu Mikuru Asahina. More specifically her Future/Adult version. I've already showed it to Nammy12 on Discord.

And I've now reached Elite Smash with Lucina; but I'm not bothering with the Matchmaking on that, I prefer Arenas tbh. And I've ended up playing these characters now:

Palutena, Dr. Mario and Lucina. And I almost got a kind of swag Doc combo off, I just needed to change the finisher. It was against a Marth I know in the Marcina Discord and I got Doc's jab lock off on him, if I ended the combo with FAir; it would've been hype (Since I was under Battlefield's platform). But I did end up labbing it, and it does work starting at around 55% if the NAir is fresh, but if its very stale, then around 80%. But it is a kill confirm.

Nair > Tech situation (If they miss the tech) > Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Down Tilt > Full Hop Fair.

So happy I found that.

I'd post a gif of Altera from Fate wiggling, but I can't be bothered.

Okay, nevermind. Have one of her.

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I have a question. Not sure how it works, but I'm asking out of being curious. But I thought I'd make this because I've been hearing mixed opinions. Not here to start a war, but I'm asking as a curious Zelda main how is her actual viability?

Personally I feel shes going to drop down because her issues are amplified due to the weakening of defensive options that actually helped Zelda on the defense in previous games it's just she still did bad because on advantage those same defensive options she couldnt break past. Honestly despite her bottom tier rank in smash4 I personally felt like she wasnt that bad just smash4 had too many tiers creating a more negative viewpoint because unlike brawl Zelda actually could fight the characters ranked around and above her not get bodied.

Zelda is also a defensive character with not real approach and still lack luster abilities to make her opponents runneth up on a *****. People can just choose not to deal with her **** if they cant just do one of the two (overwhelm or camp) and drag out the battle waiting for her to over extend herself to give them an opening especially if they are fast enough to capitalize on it. I cant say how far she'll drop but I dont forsee her staying in high tier land.

How does the Phantom actually help neutral or disadvantage state?

Personally phantom has created an over reliance to her game that frankly bothers me. Hes created a safety net that we cant always use or set up but when hes not around the safety is gone and Zelda is more exposed and we also lose out on free damage and some set ups.

I think the set up time bothers me cause despite old Phantoms issues he was an active OK shield on just press that we could even use in air spacing cause of float physics that honestly we had more aggressive options with despite being half assed after his buffs. Like reverse wave bounce phantom where Zelda could cross up people and I felt better about the quick throw outs than this phantom we have to build .

Lately I've watched people just not deal with phantom and wait till he goes off to continue doing w/e they were doing after getting whacked for being too aggressive.

I haven't fully figured out all her moves yet, and am still missing Up-Smash and Dsmash, but I found quite a lot of applications for her others.

usmash is still good for some kanging catches and damage. But I feel like it's back to 1.0 smash4 it doesnt even tickle through platforms anymore and I find myself using it as a "my brain decided this without my prior consent" damage move. And just rip Dsmash I feel if you need that coverage you might as well just nayru's better protection and coverage area.