Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[StoicPhantom]

Well this looks....heated

I actually kind of agree more closely with Nammy’s assessment, tbh. Phantom, when used, doesn’t inherently make the opponent respecT it, OR at least it shouldn’t and won’t do so if people understand it better (bar some MU-dependent situations where a character either has no options to maneuver it or has a lot of them.)

Properly spaced, they will have to respect. I don't know what this miracle counter that has yet to be discovered is, but you only have a few options to do, against such a large and powerful disjoint. Just the overhead slash alone, forces the opponent to DJ to completely avoid it and that only leaves them with air-dodge and landing, as the their only options. That's where the Zelda portion of the duo comes in to punish those options.

Right off the bat, many reflectors can reaction reflect and unless it’s the full Delay variant Zelda actually can’t counter reflect in time. Zelda could risk getting into a reflect battle with some chars but is then sitting there waiting to do so instead of trying to capitalize on potential space control. If anything that delay just gives lots of players time to make a move. I think if released prematurely but at full charge, it is rather quick for a big projectile, though. Hmm, I wonder if Villager can pocket phantom to disable it in this game like some item projectiles.

I played Robin in 4 and know how to get around reflectors. They are not all powerful and Zelda has much better options to deal with them than Robin did. Simply fully charging a Phantom and taking to the air, will force the opponent to either have to reflect the Phantom and be punished by Zelda or jump up to greet Zelda, only to be met with Phantom's upwards slash.

Nayru isn't a good reflector and has little use in that regard, due to the endlag. There are generally better options to punish most projectiles, like FW and shielded Phantom.

Villager can.

Luna had a full moveset with several directional kill moves at sub 10F, wnd could be anywhere on the stage. Phantom only hits hard after at least 40F of Charging, so nearly 1 whole second. And kills well only after 50+ frames. It also is very telegraphed, even for its hitbox size at later charge. It’s hitboxes are more than Luma’s but also more predictable. Again, people who have more MU knowledge will probably be familiar with how quick Zelda can pop out higher charge phantom or where the uppercut hits relative to starting position.

Luma also had short range and could only attack in most cases, when Rosa did. As such, any time Luma whiffed, Rosa was vulnerable and had just as bad, if not worse disadvantange than Zelda. If Luma is away from Rosa, it would desync from Rosa's attacks and sometimes hit behind while Rosa hit in front. This is both a blessing and a curse and upped the learning curve significantly.

All Phantom charges, hit hard enough, to give time to get Zelda her bearings and some stage control, relative to their respective endlag. I don't think we need to worry about its KO power, since that only seems to be relevant off stage. Being telegraphed is fine, since you want to primarily force your opponent to react and move.

Smash 4 Corrin's pin, was infamous and the thing everyone watched out for. It didn't even need to be used, just the mere possibility of it being used, was enough to make everyone play cautious and defensive. This allowed a slower character like Corrin, to compete with other high and top tier characters. The entire basis of range based characters, is that the opponent has to respect, even the mere possibility of those ranged attacks being used and space accordingly.

Snake C4 can literally kill at the press of a button, be anywhere relative to snake, even on the opponent. Having MU knowledge means your space is constantly limited. With Zelda she’s working to constantly limit space, and ain’t doing bad, but after the hitbox, Phantom is kind of just a pushy wall for half a second. IDK why but they also made it kind of bad at holding its shield forward after attacking, so it doesn’t sap damage quite as well as one could hope.

Yeah, and that's the thing, anywhere relative to Snake. I'm not knocking its potential as a spacing move or trap tool, merely saying it wasn't an active and moving hitbox like the Phantom, as was implied. Not only is it centered around Snake when he deploys them, he can also damage himself with them. My friend had some amusing SDs when we last played, botching that spacing.

Zelda can separate from the Phantom, not just by fully charging it, but also by setting it on a ledge, while falling below. Not only can she then move while it is charging, but it covers the air and below, while Zelda can freely move to cover the rest. I don't know if that is a glitch and will be patched in future updates, but it currently opens up a whole other dimension in her spacing. Being able to separate from the Phantom, means they can both cover entire swaths of the stage, not just a specific area.

Also, I think you’re discrediting Nammy rather heavily on playing other fighters. I’m not really sure why, because if anything Smash has some of the least complex gameplay, (at very least input intensity) and reaction/area control/spacing are just as relevant to many other games. It ain’t cute. If you need it to come from the mouth of a “certified Zelda main” then here, I do think Phantom is being overhyped right now because almost no one even knows how to handle it in a competitive match. They just cower in “what is this move” shock. It’s the kind of thing that gets characters reaction nerfed by complaining players during smash 4’s patch prime, actually.

They are not the only one, who has ever played another fighting game nor are you. I'm not trying to be cute here. Smash as a fighting game shares the same fundamentals, but is different in terms of freedom of movement, both in the air and on the ground. Previous Smash games, letting you run through your opponent, broke many conventions in terms of traps and spacing and is part of what turned off the FGC on the whole to Smash. They share similar principles, but those are going to look and apply differently to Smash, due to its freedom of movement.

In all of my matches, plenty of people are very familiar with it and don't hesitate to act on a counter. I have to then come up with a counter to their counter. The match turns into a battle of wits and is what leads to those accidental 1000 IQ plays. People aren't "cowering" because they don't understand the move, they "cower" because they know full well how oppressive it is and how much of a bad spot it can put them in, trying to avoid it. The Phantom doesn't need to actually hit or be used in isolation, just trying to avoid it can setup other attacks/traps.

It makes me uncomfortable how some are shouting from the rooftops how ‘amazing’ Zelda is all of a sudden when her only major change is no freefall din and phantom buffs. Din’s Fire has 80% the same traits and is still very weak outside edgeguards, multiple moves received only negligible buffs (dash Attack, Nayru’s) but remain the same from the last game, which I repeatedly warned is a bad sign of it happens, some of the minor buffs came with worse trade offs (Dtilt, NAir, arguable Ftilt’s changes too). Her LKs got decently better but her aerial kit is far from the bar it needs to reach for how dominant good aerials can be now. I know this is turning into a takedown of Zelda’s full kit, but it might as well.

I feel like it's the other way around, where people are trying to play her exactly like before and not taking advantage of the new mechanics or her moveset buffs. All the complaints centering around moves like Nair or Down-Tilt, seems to confirm that. Down-Tilt isn't really useful anymore, when everyone is content to just hop around and Nair works just fine as a wall and intimidation, even if it doesn't combo as well or easy as it used to.

Din's Fire is fast enough to use as a jump read and as a combo in certain situations. Nayru's Love is fast enough to work as a pseudo counter and can even break super armor, when properly timed. It makes otherwise impossible match-ups like Little Mac, a total joke. Her aerial kit is better suited as follow ups, not as neutral tools. FF Up-air can be used after Phantom forces a DJ, to provoke an air-dodge and the nerfed air-dodges, means Zelda has time to punish the landing. There are similar applications taking advantage of the nerfed defensive options.

Zelda's kit might seem like it got relatively minor buffs, when compared to the rest of the cast, but those buffs in conjunction with the new mechanics, have opened up more uses and applications than before.

Farore's Wind now has the frame data, to be more than a recovery and hard punish. It can now be used anywhere from a projectile punish to a roll/dash read punish. It is a very potent OoS shield option, that can really shutdown all of the rush down and aerial spamming. It can be done in place to make attacks go through it and punish very hard, at the same time. It even has off stage applications, outside of recovering, like the first hit being able to stage spike.

Up-Tilt has more range and being able to use it out of a run, means Zelda too, can juggle people like everyone else. Up-Smash can beat every attack that isn't a disjoint and its wide hitbox is good for catching air-dodges. Up-air is similar and I have yet to see a Dair do anything more, than trade at best.

I spent multiple years trying to clear up misconceptions that many Zelda players had in SSB4 about the wildest of notions, and got labeled shady I’m sure, but there was an echo chamber of overly optimistic Zeldas last game that refused to even come here anymore because of Zeldawful jokes or more bluntly realistic viewpoints of Zelda’s kit, which was bad. I see a lot of similar claims popping up here right after release and I’m not convinced a lot of what we think of Zelda will stand once people have better MU knowledge of the char.

Anyone who actually thought the previous Zelda's were going to be any good, were putting on the tinted glasses. I disagree that this time is similar. It seems more to me, that people are poopooing Zelda based on initial impressions and trying to play her like before, then taking their frustrations with the character, out on people like me, who keep an open mind.

A few nitpicks and comments on this heated discussion.
Ganondorf is one the slowest moving characters in the game and has been since Melee. In Ultimate, his run speed is 1.34, walk speed is 0.767, dash speed is 1.87, and his air speed is 0.83. The only speed he is decent in is fall speed at 1.65. Compare this to Zelda's run speed of 1.43, walk speed of 0.914, dash speed of 1.958, and air speed of 1.092. Zelda's a floaty with a fall speed of 1.35.

I was talking overall, with his movement buffs combined with his lagless moves. Having his specials come out fast and cover lots of ground combined with his lagless moves gimmick and the new dash mechanics, makes him fast on the ground IMO. Not relatively faster than the rest of the cast, but his moves still being ridiculously powerful makes him a bigger threat than before.

Can Phantom Knight even be classified as a puppet or summon since it's more like a projectile or an assist? When I think of puppeteer and summoner characters, I think of characters who can call or command an active or constant participant to fight alongside them. Luma counts when Rosalina can tell Luma what to do, tell it to stay, come back, or have it move to a position, and unless Luma gets knocked out, Luma is always present and attacks alongside Rosalina. Other examples would be Carl and Relius from BlazBlue, Chaos from Under Night In-Birth, and I think Menat from Street Fighter. Phantom Knight wouldn't count when it only fights when Zelda calls for it and only does one type of an attack. Otherwise, it doesn't participate anywhere else; you can't command it to stay in place or go to position and hold it and you can't tell it to do anything else, but charge in an attack. Also, not the Ice Climbers or Olimar & Pikmin since they're more like tag team characters and the Pikmin are literally living ammunition.

When I compared Phantom to Luma, I wasn't making a direct comparison, but stating that they fulfill the same role. Phantom does multiple attacks and Zelda can separate from it. The lag on the fully charged version is what allows Zelda to move where she needs to.

Luma also has the problem of having their own damage meter and hurtbox. Luma isn't completely disjointed in that regard and part of playing RosaLuma is trying to keep Luma alive. Sword characters in particular were good at safely shutting Luma down and it was a nightmare trying to keep Luma alive in those matches. Cloud's dash attack in particular was completely safe and always knocked luma away and forced Rosa into shield, lest she be hit.

Phantom doesn't have that problem and even if you managed to destroy it, the respawn timer is very short and Zelda can handle her own in that time. If you are properly utilizing Phantom, there won't be many chances for your opponent to destroy it.

Then that is what telegraphing is. If you see an attack about to occur, then you are going to react to it. Slower moves are more telegraphed as a result.

Yes, that is the point. If one of Zelda's major problems was being a defensive character, that was easily camped and had no recourse in baiting or forcing an approach, then having a move that can be released early and that simply just charging, forces them to break camp, would then mean that Zelda got a huge boost in regards to her viability.

Avoid ever saying this again. Just because you play, primarily or otherwise, and/or have extensively put time into a character does not mean you know everything or hold a more superior position over other people who do not play that character as their main, as much time as you have, as how you do, and so on. Not only does that reek of arrogance, but it also reeks of ignorance. You putting yourself above others can lead you to restrict yourself to only your beliefs, ideas, and experience and, thus, blinding you from learning from others and seeing different points of views.

No, I'm going to say it, when it is relevant. Yes, taking the time to learn and practice something, does mean you are more knowledgeable and better at it, than someone who hasn't. And it is far more arrogant to speak from a position of ignorance and pretend you know as much as someone, who has dedicated time and effort to learn something. Do you really think you can just walk up to someone with experience in a field, you don't have, and try to argue basic things in that field, you don't understand, and not have them be irritated at best? Does that mean a world class pianist, is on the same level as someone with only an hour of practice under their belt?

I don't mean for that paragraph to sound condescending, but I am legitimately baffled that you can insinuate that people with more time, knowledge, and experience, are not better in those regards ,than someone who doesn't have those things.

I welcome challenges and push back to my ideas, because I don't have all the answers, but would prefer it from someone who has some experience and that I'm not constantly correcting basic facts and misconceptions, while trying to discuss the finer details. And I don't appreciate having to clear up things, that a little reading on this very forum would clarify and I really don't appreciate having to repeat myself, when my posts can be easily read and reviewed by everyone.

Skills transfer over from different games and Smash isn't such a special entity that it has things other fighting games don't. Dealing with hitboxes in front and behind is not uncommon. Menat is a fairly mainstream example of that with how many people play Street Fighter V.

I never said they didn't and Smash does have things other fighting games don't, in terms of movement freedom, off stage, and blast zones. The FGC doesn't consider Smash as a traditional fighting game for a reason.

Those characters and their hitboxs are still limited by the movement restrictions. There is a lot more freedom along both the Y and X axis in Smash and as such you can do some pretty tight, confusing, and asymmetrical spacing with both of those hitboxs, that make it difficult to judge by eye, especially in a split second and in a high pressure situation.

You're assuming people play with sound on or are listening to the game's audio. Some people don't if tournament players wearing headphones or earphones are any indication of that.

C4 is an explosive, but it is also a trap. Snake can place it anywhere he wants within reason including onto his opponent. In other words, it has positional variance.

That's why I added the caveat, that you don't even need sound, because you should be watching your opponent anyways.

I'm well aware. It still isn't an active and moving hitbox, covering multiple levels of space.

Let me ask you sis have you used Zelda in previous games extensively? I'm not asking about rank or anything just general play time because you say you are just getting the basics of Zelda down but seem to be ignoring that alot of Zelda hasnt changed that drastically since the last game. Even from brawl, Zelda primarily got mostly QoL changes that helped her be able to do things that other characters could do like combos and shield grab. Now she can camp better, but shes still not able to fully camp to force the approach even armed with a reflector.

Yep. I only played a little of Melee and didn't play Brawl, and she wasn't in 64, but I do have extensive playtime with her in 4 and I think she is still my most played character according to the records.

Zelda still has the same moveset, but both the buffs and the new mechanics, open up more uses and applications than before. When I said I was just starting to get the basics, I meant in how her buffs relate to the new mechanics. As I illustrated above, there are quite a lot of new applications to do and as such, it's been taking me a while to figure them out and where they apply. And then there is getting used to the speed and timing of a new game.

It might seem like the new mobility makes it easier to camp or escape, but the defensive nerfs, actually make it easy to trap people even with a slower character. I gave some examples above, but shields being weak and air-dodges being laggy, means conserving resources is more important than before. You can't just simply DJ above your opponent or on a platform and expect to easily air-dodge through any punish attempts, like you could in 4. Being in the air and above your opponent, is much more risky now.

That means Zelda can space in a way, where she has access to her quick moves, while forcing the opponents defensive options to become increasingly riskier and laggier. You can literally box your opponent in, in this way. So long as Zelda has large disjoints, opponents will have to respect her and approach or try to avoid her attacks.

Because I played her a lot in both games, I feel like she plays differently now than she did before, and adapting to a different playstyle, was what took so long in the first place.

Zelda can wall off alot of space but it's in sections and it's slow not enough to create truly complex traps. You can trick people into things but even these setups only work When Zelda has the time and space to do them

Being in sections is perfectly fine. Zelda doesn't need a lot of hits to deal major damage and can afford to take her time, slowly closing that space. With the defensive nerfs, you don't need overly complex traps, since it doesn't take much to do well in advantage. So long as you have a plan in mind, when you can set those up, your opponent has a much bigger hill to climb, getting out of them.

Anytime an opponent camps, is time and space for Zelda to set those up. If the opponent tries to blitz, that's where Zelda's base as a defensive character comes in and any successful wall, will give you time and space to set Phantom up. She's has good defensive and get off me options, unlike say, the Belmont's, who I have a feeling will drop on the tier list, once people start figuring that out. Patience and knowledge is key.

Rosalind even solo in smash 4 had 2 things Zelda did not speed and big not precise hitboxes, Luma was just icing on the cake because just speed alone helped rosalind get in and get out when she needed too and her hitboxes combined with luma made her hard to get in on. Drive by luma always forced players to be cautious or get rid of him first otherwise Rosalind can turn a disadvantage around very easily just die to a little tunnel vision, you didnt even need to be good with rosalind to do this. And once luma was gone rosalind still had the threat of his return so close range fighters had to rush her. Nobody HAS to rush Zelda because she doesnt have a tool that threatening. Rosalind could almost always stay on the defense and have others play her game or risk a time out meanwhile Zeldas hand is forced the moment she loses % advantage if people can camp her or just choose not to deal if they cant and wait for her to come forward. And back in smash 4 phantom was on a 13s timer.

Rosa traded huge hitboxs for a huge hurtbox. Solo Rosa was fairly linear without Luma and if an opponent spaced around that, she had the same disadvantage problems as Zelda, while being a bigger hurtbox. Rosa's base stats were fairly meh on the whole and when you compare them to the others in her class, she had some of the worst. They let her camp and run away, but they definitely were not going to compete with other top tiers. Watch Dabuz's matches and you'll notice, he camps and runs away heavily when he loses Luma, only poking when he spots an opening.

She is easy on the lower levels, because they haven't figured out Luma, but she is really difficult to use in the higher levels, due to people understanding how to fight Luma. Keeping Luma alive against a good player is difficult to do and is why so many FG Rosa players were trash and easily beaten with a rushdown strategy. There is a reason why there were few notable Rosas at the higher levels of play.

So long as Zelda has center stage, Phantom can cover nearly every amount of space your opponent has. If her opponent has center stage, Phantom covers everything in there. Shields don't last long and can be grabbed or otherwise punished and going into the air is dangerous. Your opponent can't camp in one place, the new mechanics don't allow it. Eventually they will get tired of dodging Phantom assaults and have to approach. If they don't have a good projectile, they will have to anyways.

I think people are really underestimating, how annoying and disruptive Phantom can be.

Luma was always a threat whereas phantom is not and if someone is rushing you while you are putting phantom together Zelda is forced to make a decision since hitting her breaks him and while shes putting him together if he doesnt have enough HP you may still get hit and phantom gets broken, hes better but still not threatening if people understand him.

Luma got bodied by disjoints and ranged attacks in general. If someone is rushing you, either release the Phantom early or if they shield often, then you can release it at the more potent charges. If you are anticipating someone rushing you, hopping back while charging Phantom in the air, will give you enough space to make your opponent overextend or just release the lower charge.

Yeah, it's not an instant win button. It requires awareness of the situation and proper spacing to use it effectively. Paying attention to your opponents habits in his response to it, is an important thing to do, in order to plan ahead.

I've watched in my own matches and in videos people let Zelda charge phantom up because they dont know what he does or how he moves since only Zeldas cared about Zelda and most zelda players in the last game barely used phantom so hes partially unknown as a projectile. Villagers and isabelle's arent even pocketing him since they dont know they can. Players are respecting her space too much and if they are approaching are often wildly approaching letting Zelda do the defending like she wants too even if shes at disadvantage in percent.

As I mentioned above, in my matches everyone is aware of what both characters can do. People who let Zelda charge Phantom, don't have the means to rush her down or have been stuffed by the follow up to my bait. Overhead slash alone covers everything, except a DJ and there are very few characters that can punish or act from there. Opponents are cautious and respectful, because they know how oppressive Phantom can be.

 

[BJN39]

So yeah me focusing on easy targets like Dtilt and NAir for being worse now is apparently me being stuck in my “past bad habits” when I’ve literally had no trouble transitioning from using Dtilt, which is irrelevant now, (it’s not like I haven’t already shared my sentiments for how her game plan is different this time and how I’ve changed my playstyle around it but oh well) I had decided to use those two as easier examples of poor buff/nerf trade offs she received. I could’ve gone through a whole laundry list of every single move, now with accumulations of data to back it up. After seeing just how thoroughly you fight back on every point from every person though I just cbf like, at all to go back and point out data wise how some of your statements in response to me are incorrect. I still like yew, and your Zelda passion, but b y e f o r n o w.

 

[StoicPhantom]

So yeah me focusing on easy targets like Dtilt and NAir for being worse now is apparently me being stuck in my “past bad habits” when I’ve literally had no trouble transitioning from using Dtilt, which is irrelevant now, (it’s not like I haven’t already shared my sentiments for how her game plan is different this time and how I’ve changed my playstyle around it but oh well) I had decided to use those two as easier examples of poor buff/nerf trade offs she received. I could’ve gone through a whole laundry list of every single move, now with accumulations of data to back it up. After seeing just how thoroughly you fight back on every point from every person though I just cbf like, at all to go back and point out data wise how some of your statements in response to me are incorrect. I still like yew, and your Zelda passion, but b y e f o r n o w.

I did not say anything about you or your "past bad habits". Nor was I trying to criticize you in anyway. I was merely responding to your posts, as is tradition on a discussion forum. I'm not "fighting" anyone or trying to win an argument. I'm merely stating my position and clarifying my views.

Nair and Down-Tilt is a common complaint here, I was not addressing you specifically. I don't know I what I did specifically to warrant this passive-aggressive post, but none of that was meant as a personal attack. I'm not sure what data has anything to do with what I said, but if you ever feel like it, your welcome to post it.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Me coming back into this thread to all this Phantom drama:

 

[StoicPhantom]

Me coming back into this thread to all this Phantom drama:

At least you brought pizza.

 

[Ffamran]

I was talking overall, with his movement buffs combined with his lagless moves. Having his specials come out fast and cover lots of ground combined with his lagless moves gimmick and the new dash mechanics, makes him fast on the ground IMO. Not relatively faster than the rest of the cast, but his moves still being ridiculously powerful makes him a bigger threat than before.

Ganondorf's movement is still slow. Zelda being faster means she should be able to avoid him. In terms of moves, "He's fast on the ground, but slow in the air", is not exactly true. Relative to other heavyweights, Ganondorf has fast moves, but his fastest moves are his frame 7 jab and Nair. On the ground, Ganondorf will often be using his frame 10 dash attack, Ftilt, and Dtilt and sometimes his frame 7 jab. For his aerials, Nair, Uair (frame 8), and Bair (frame 10) are all fast and safe options as they have low landing lag, 10 frames for Nair and 11 frames for Uair and Bair, Nair auto-cancels from a jump, and Uair and Bair auto-cancel from a hop.

His special do not come out fast. Ground Flame Choke is frame 16 with 30 recovery frames on whiff and 26 recovery frames if it succeeds while aerial Flame Choke is frame 16 with 20 landing frames or 36 recovery frames if it succeeds and he lands onto the ground. Ground Wizard's Foot is frame 16 with 26 recovery frames if he stops on the ground and 34 if he stops in the air. Aerial Wizard's Foot is frame 16 with 20 recovery frames if he doesn't land and 42 recovery frames if he lands due to the landing hitbox. Dark Dive is frame 14 with 30 landing frames. Warlock Punch is still frame 70 and frame 80 when reversed with 47 recovery frames. Ignoring Warlock Punch, frame 14 to 16 is not exactly fast, but they do have low recovery depending on the outcome of the move.

Ganondorf's frame data (in Japanese) for those curious: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1596717207.

When I compared Phantom to Luma, I wasn't making a direct comparison, but stating that they fulfill the same role. Phantom does multiple attacks and Zelda can separate from it. The lag on the fully charged version is what allows Zelda to move where she needs to.

Luma also has the problem of having their own damage meter and hurtbox. Luma isn't completely disjointed in that regard and part of playing RosaLuma is trying to keep Luma alive. Sword characters in particular were good at safely shutting Luma down and it was a nightmare trying to keep Luma alive in those matches. Cloud's dash attack in particular was completely safe and always knocked luma away and forced Rosa into shield, lest she be hit.

Phantom doesn't have that problem and even if you managed to destroy it, the respawn timer is very short and Zelda can handle her own in that time. If you are properly utilizing Phantom, there won't be many chances for your opponent to destroy it.

My point and post which was directed at Nammy was that Phantom Knight cannot be classified as a puppet or summon, therefore, Zelda can't be classified as a puppeteer or summoner character. Phantom Knight only appears through one move, Phantom Slash and only does one type of an attack. Does it protect Zelda? Yes. Does it act as another body? Yes? Can it be commanded to hold a position indefinitely until it is called back or defeated? No, but Rosalina can tell Luma to do that. Does it actively fight with Zelda in that it participates in several of her moves? No, but Luma is always on the field until it's defeated and participates with almost all of Rosalina's moves. Phantom Knight is more like an assist than a puppet or summon.

Yes, that is the point. If one of Zelda's major problems was being a defensive character, that was easily camped and had no recourse in baiting or forcing an approach, then having a move that can be released early and that simply just charging, forces them to break camp, would then mean that Zelda got a huge boost in regards to her viability.

You said and I quote: "Telegraph has nothing to do with anything." My point was what telegraphing is and that Zelda charging, using Phantom Slash is her telegraphing that she is about to do something to which as you stated and everyone would agree on, people would have to respond to that. How they respond to it, I do not care. The point is that telegraphing is something that is occurring and has something to do with Phantom Slash.

No, I'm going to say it when it is relevant. Yes, taking the time to learn and practice something, does mean you are more knowledgeable and better at it than someone who hasn't. And it is far more arrogant to speak from a position of ignorance and pretend you know as much as someone who has dedicated time and effort to learn something. Do you really think you can just walk up to someone with experience in a field you don't have and try to argue basic things in that field you don't understand and not have them be irritated at best? Does that mean a world class pianist is on the same level as someone with only an hour of practice under their belt?

I don't mean for that paragraph to sound condescending, but I am legitimately baffled that you can insinuate that people with more time, knowledge, and experience are not better in those regards than someone who doesn't have those things.

I welcome challenges and push back to my ideas because I don't have all the answers, but would prefer it from someone who has some experience and that I'm not constantly correcting basic facts and misconceptions while trying to discuss the finer details. And I don't appreciate having to clear up things that a little reading on this very forum would clarify and I really don't appreciate having to repeat myself when my posts can be easily read and reviewed by everyone.

Do not twist my words. What I am saying is that although someone may be skilled or experienced in something, that does not put them in a position of superiority. They are in a better position to advise, educate, and correct things, but they are in no position to dogmatically direct others or dismiss those that are deemed inferior. You said it yourself that you don't have all the answers. Nobody does, but once again, that doesn't put you in a position to dismiss others because you believe that they do not have enough experience. A teacher can learn as much from a student as much as a student can learn from a teacher.

Additionally, the "actual" in "I am an actual Zelda main" comes off as if other Zelda players aren't playing her as their main or not knowledgeable with her.

I never said they didn't and Smash does have things other fighting games don't, in terms of movement freedom, off stage, and blast zones. The FGC doesn't consider Smash as a traditional fighting game for a reason.

Those characters and their hitboxs are still limited by the movement restrictions. There is a lot more freedom along both the Y and X axis in Smash and as such you can do some pretty tight, confusing, and asymmetrical spacing with both of those hitboxs, that make it difficult to judge by eye, especially in a split second and in a high pressure situation.

Your response to Nammy was "I really don't care what games you play or how good of reaction time you have", and then followed up with "This is Smash and no matter how good of reaction time you have, if there is a hitbox in front of you and a hitbox behind you and you are out of options, you are going to be trapped all the same." You simply dismissed that any skill in or any experience he has with other fighting games could have an impact on how he plays Smash. The following statement then makes it sound like you are saying Smash is something special, specifically with hitboxes sandwiching you, to which my response is that no, this isn't special as this happens in other fighting games.

I'm well aware. It still isn't an active and moving hitbox, covering multiple levels of space.

Because that's not the point of C4, a usually stationary, explosive trap that needs to be denoted or explode in after 1600 frames or around 27 seconds as Smash runs at 60 FPS according to Kurogane Hammer's site: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Snake.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Ganondorf's movement is still slow. Zelda being faster means she should be able to avoid him. In terms of moves, "He's fast on the ground, but slow in the air", is not exactly true. Relative to other heavyweights, Ganondorf has fast moves, but his fastest moves are his frame 7 jab and Nair. On the ground, Ganondorf will often be using his frame 10 dash attack, Ftilt, and Dtilt and sometimes his frame 7 jab. For his aerials, Nair, Uair (frame 8), and Bair (frame 10) are all fast and safe options as they have low landing lag, 10 frames for Nair and 11 frames for Uair and Bair, Nair auto-cancels from a jump, and Uair and Bair auto-cancel from a hop.

His special do not come out fast. Ground Flame Choke is frame 16 with 30 recovery frames on whiff and 26 recovery frames if it succeeds while aerial Flame Choke is frame 16 with 20 landing frames or 36 recovery frames if it succeeds and he lands onto the ground. Ground Wizard's Foot is frame 16 with 26 recovery frames if he stops on the ground and 34 if he stops in the air. Aerial Wizard's Foot is frame 16 with 20 recovery frames if he doesn't land and 42 recovery frames if he lands due to the landing hitbox. Dark Dive is frame 14 with 30 landing frames. Warlock Punch is still frame 70 and frame 80 when reversed with 47 recovery frames. Ignoring Warlock Punch, frame 14 to 16 is not exactly fast, but they do have low recovery depending on the outcome of the move.

Ganondorf's frame data (in Japanese) for those curious: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1596717207.

I appreciate the effort you took to post all that data, but I was talking about Ganon in a real world setting. Frame data is important, but as with all data and statistics, it is only a part of a whole truth.

Wizard's Foot's frame data, is exactly at what the average human reaction time is. Accounting for monitor or online lag, that can shrink. Even playing offline on a fast monitor, the situation is constantly updating and the player might not always be in the best position to react to it. Those specials are fast, in the sense that they cover a lot of area and discourage shield use, while being on the border of reaction time. When I said he was fast, I was taking into account all the variables you find in the real world, that frame data alone, doesn't adequately describe.

You said and I quote: "Telegraph has nothing to do with anything." My point was what telegraphing is and that Zelda charging, using Phantom Slash is her telegraphing that she is about to do something to which as you stated and everyone would agree on, people would have to respond to that. How they respond to it, I do not care. The point is that telegraphing is something that is occurring and has something to do with Phantom Slash.

I wasn't contesting what telegraphing is, I was saying it wasn't a problem.

Do not twist my words. What I am saying is that although someone may be skilled or experienced in something, that does not put them in a position of superiority. They are in a better position to advise, educate, and correct things, but they are in no position to dogmatically direct others or dismiss those that are deemed inferior. You said it yourself that you don't have all the answers. Nobody does, but once again, that doesn't put you in a position to dismiss others because you believe that they do not have enough experience. A teacher can learn as much from a student as much as a student can learn from a teacher.

The whole thing started, because a certain someone took my Luma comparison as a direct one, then proceeded to not understand the point of my examples. After trying to correct them, they doubled down and tried to lecture me on how my own character works. After repeatedly correcting them on the most basic of things, they still had their mind made up, that they knew better. I cannot learn anything if I am constantly correcting them on the basics. There is nothing to learn from a person who refuses to understand.

I don't know why you are so worried about whether the uninformed are taken seriously, but this is not unique to me or Smash, but something you will find everywhere there is expertise. My not knowing all the answers, does not mean I have to listen to people who don't understand the basics. I wouldn't even dare to question a teacher until I at least learned that much.

A teacher learning from their student is usually in regards to teaching not the subject. Plenty of schoolchildren have tried to correct their teachers or the curriculum, but were instead corrected themselves. When a teacher learns from their student, it is often about teaching or interacting with others, period.

Additionally, the "actual" in "I am an actual Zelda main" comes off as if other Zelda players aren't playing her as their main or not knowledgeable with her.

Uh no, if they are a Zelda player, then by definition they are a Zelda main. The poster I was responding to, doesn't seem to be a Zelda main or knowledgeable about her.

Your response to Nammy was "I really don't care what games you play or how good of reaction time you have", and then followed up with "This is Smash and no matter how good of reaction time you have, if there is a hitbox in front of you and a hitbox behind you and you are out of options, you are going to be trapped all the same." You simply dismissed that any skill in or any experience he has with other fighting games could have an impact on how he plays Smash. The following statement then makes it sound like you are saying Smash is something special, specifically with hitboxes sandwiching you, to which my response is that no, this isn't special as this happens in other fighting games.

I said no matter how good of reaction time you have, you cannot escape a trap. That is why it's called a trap. He brought up having good reaction time, because of anime fighters. I said I don't care what he plays, because it had no relevance to the topic at hand.

I will reiterate that I too have played other fighting games. The principles are the same, but they manifest differently. There is a reason why there is a distinction between traditional fighting games and platform fighters like Smash.

I didn't say hitboxs sandwiching you is unique to Smash, I was saying space is different in Smash.

Because that's not the point of C4, a usually stationary, explosive trap that needs to be denoted or explode in after 1600 frames or around 27 seconds as Smash runs at 60 FPS according to Kurogane Hammer's site: http://kuroganehammer.com/Ultimate/Snake.

Yes, that is what I was saying in response to:

Ironically c4 is hard to keep track of due to its small size and lack of indicator since snake can update its position frequently and has a lot of control over it.
Aka variations.

Please go back and read those posts again, I am getting tired of repeating myself.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Uh no, if they are a Zelda player, then by definition they are a Zelda main. The poster I was responding to, doesn't seem to be a Zelda main or knowledgeable about her.

while I dont remember his exact quote a person I believed was Rob main said something to this effect

Jigglyzelda is so weird. Her name is Jigglyzelda with a peach icon chilling out on the Fox boards, like what are you?

many players float around the boards while maining other characters not including the one where they frequent the most at. Nammy has been coming here a long time so it is just rude to throw that kinda statement out in a discussion because of how one feels someone's knowledge about a character is and you dont know that person. Alot of players main a character and dont even know what half their moves are capable of.
Smashers also fiddle around with alot of characters as smash is a crossover fighter but would not actually main them for like a tourney or something. We had a sis here who changed mains every week and even wrote a guide during her Peach week which was actually decent.

 

[Lil Puddin]

S StoicPhantom
HunTy don't take any Zelda trash talk seriously. Especially since many of us are years-long Zelda mains, even if our avatars and/or "main list" don't show it. Her base kit is OK this time around, but is still easily exploitable and not safe for her. She's a weird character with a flawed premise (slow glass cannon) so while she has a lot of theoretical combos/advantages/retaliations/etc - chances are they rarely work consistently against non-CPU opponents (because they don't - bcuz slow). At the end of the day she's just OK at best. But still, we must all work together and always remember to...

 

[Nammy12]

dw gorls i just have to make it clear that i am a TRUE zelda main
only then am i allowed to say things about the character that is obvious

 

[BJN39]

Nammy yew shady heaux!

 

[Gay Ginger]

 

[StoicPhantom]

while I dont remember his exact quote a person I believed was Rob main said something to this effect



many players float around the boards while maining other characters not including the one where they frequent the most at. Nammy has been coming here a long time so it is just rude to throw that kinda statement out in a discussion because of how one feels someone's knowledge about a character is and you dont know that person. Alot of players main a character and dont even know what half their moves are capable of.
Smashers also fiddle around with alot of characters as smash is a crossover fighter but would not actually main them for like a tourney or something. We had a sis here who changed mains every week and even wrote a guide during her Peach week which was actually decent.

If Nammy is a Zelda main, then I will apologize for making assumptions. I don't know the poster in question nor do they have an Ultimate main listed in their profile. I went based off their Smash 4 main. However, I will stand by everything else I said.

I'm not opposed to people waffling between mains or who main other characters or don't understand the character they main, discussing the Zelda meta. That wouldn't even matter, because that is their priviledge to do so. I do however, have a problem when they try to argue basic things they don't understand, with someone who does seriously main Zelda and dedicates a lot of effort in doing so.

It's one thing to throw out your current thoughts and see how others respond. It's an entirely different thing to double down and repeatedly give out the same false impressions, even when explicitly corrected with examples. That gives off the impression of an armchair theorist know it all, who lacks practical experience and just bases things off they read or briefly dabbled in. These types plague the internet and various forums, so anyone that gives off that impression, is going to rub me the wrong way.

It also doesn't help my irritation that over half of those walls I had to post. were repeating things I said a couple posts above. Despite appearances, I don't like typing up that much, unless I feel it's worth it. When I have to repeat myself multiple times, I get the feeling that people aren't paying attention and aren't giving my posts the same respect I give theirs. That means that I am largely wasting my time and effort and that is another big peeve of mine.

There is a reason why serious players, main characters seriously. There are all sorts of tips and tricks and strategies, that you can discover, that aren't immediately obvious, only looking at the general structure or frame data of a character. Learning the absolute effective range of every move and how that move applies to every situation, is what leads to all the crazy strategies and plays, as well as how skilled character mains get out of tricky situations exploiting their character's weakness. There were many times knowing the exact range and timing of Robin's jab, got me out of some tricky blitzes. All that, is not something you can gain without a lot of experience and grinding.

As such, while I welcome questions and pushback from all posters, I'm not going to take seriously or be happy about someone who hasn't put in the work, trying to argue and correct me with initial impressions and basic misunderstandings. I apologize, if I came across as condescending, but with the limited info I had to work with, I was getting the impression of those types who play a character a couple of times and then judge them based on that. I cringed every time someone said "they play like a heavy, but are a lightweight" about Smash 4 Robin. They clearly didn't understand and tried to play a basic rushdown style and when that didn't work, they cried low tier. Tier list making seems to be rampant with this kind of thing, so you will have to forgive me on that front.

I'm not knocking or putting down anyone or their knowledge or dedication to their character, but the initial post that sparked all this was talking about more advanced concepts and Zelda play. As such, you kind of need a handle on the basics, in order to adequately discuss that. When I have to point out basic things like Phantom variations, then you might not be at that level yet, to adequately discuss or understand. That's completely ok, no one starts out knowing these things and I certainly didn't, but you should save talk on more advanced things until you do. Zelda's basic is much steeper than a lot of other character's basic.



I intended to leave things at that and have this post be just a tad more apologetic, but recent posts have confirmed my suspicions from previous posts, that the mental age and emotional maturity, needed to handle discussion and disagreement, of some posters isn't altogether there. It seems I struck some nerves, bruised some egos, and riled up a local clique, that I wasn't aware of previously.

I guess I expected that a board dedicated to a specific character, from a specific game, on a website dedicated to a specific franchise, might have people serious about learning their character and improving themselves. It seems I may have been mistaken on some level and a chunk of people here, are just content to whine and blame their character for their failures.

I'll still hang around and help newcomers and bounce ideas with other posters, who are actually serious about learning and others can have their pity party and hugbox.

S StoicPhantom
HunTy don't take any Zelda trash talk seriously. Especially since many of us are years-long Zelda mains, even if our avatars and/or "main list" don't show it. Her base kit is OK this time around, but is still easily exploitable and not safe for her. She's a weird character with a flawed premise (slow glass cannon) so while she has a lot of theoretical combos/advantages/retaliations/etc - chances are they rarely work consistently against non-CPU opponents (because they don't - bcuz slow). At the end of the day she's just OK at best. But still, we must all work together and always remember to...

I appreciate your advice and was going to take it to heart, but I think recent posts indicate, I'm not the only one taking things seriously, albeit in a different manner than I had hoped. I am new, so I don't know the history of other posters and don't know which do and don't main Zelda.

I can't say I agree with the rest and have already extensively outlined why. I know they work against actual opponents, because I do them on actual opponents. Every game. I think the new dash and parry mechanics, combined with the defensive nerfs and Zelda's new and improved kit, makes being slow not much of a problem. So long as you manipulate your opponent where you want them, you will always hit them. Goading your opponent into approaching with Phantom, so you can you use Zelda's good defensive options to compete, always felt obvious to me.

I guess at this point, the meta will have to prove which is right.

 

[Lil Puddin]

A TRUE™ gorl would use a vibrant text color so ha post could truly stand out and be dramatic.

I'm not buying your otherwise convincing lies Nammy12 .

 

[BJN39]

I guess I expected that a board dedicated to a specific character, from a specific game, on a website dedicated to a specific franchise, might have people serious about learning their character and improving themselves. It seems I may have been mistaken on some level and a chunk of people here, are just content to whine and blame their character for their failures.

I can’t remember how much you visited the previous Zelda social or are aware of its history, but...


Ironically, related to this paragraph, there was a period of time where the Zelda’s and their close comrades (so a zelda-exclusive environment, shall we say) went around “raiding” other boards (Lucina, ZSS) and calling their women trash females versus our Kweem, and insighting battles of playful sass with GIFs (no, really, we actually steamrolled Lucina for 6 pages. Keep reading and you’ll see...) and the result of such shenanigans was a massive influx of non-Zelda mains and actual socializing on the Zelda social. We heavily bonded over Zelda’s inviable design, creating the BAN•ZELDA meme because she was ‘clearly’ broken. But for years we’ve housed quite a few non-Zelda players and less-than-serious discussion abt Zelda, and that was fine because this was the social. (And I’m not sure how this because the serious comp zelda discussion zone tbh!) In the transition much of those folks were lost but a core group still comes by frequently, and they’re still near and dear to me.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I can’t remember how much you visited the previous Zelda social or are aware of its history, but...


Ironically, related to this paragraph, there was a period of time where the Zelda’s and their close comrades (so a zelda-exclusive environment, shall we say) went around “raiding” other boards (Lucina, ZSS) and calling their women trash females versus our Kweem, and insighting battles of playful sass with GIFs (no, really, we actually steamrolled Lucina for 6 pages. Keep reading and you’ll see...) and the result of such shenanigans was a massive influx of non-Zelda mains and actual socializing on the Zelda social. We heavily bonded over Zelda’s inviable design, creating the BAN•ZELDA meme because she was ‘clearly’ broken. But for years we’ve housed quite a few non-Zelda players and less-than-serious discussion abt Zelda, and that was fine because this was the social. (And I’m not sure how this because the serious comp zelda discussion zone tbh!) In the transition much of those folks were lost but a core group still comes by frequently, and they’re still near and dear to me.

I didn't and I don't.

I'm perfectly fine with social stuff and don't have a problem with people's like or dislike of Zelda as a character herself. My issue was more the seemingly close-minded and hostile nature towards discussion of her viability and how her new moves interact with the new mechanics. I could understand the Smash 4 Zelda doubts, after the meta developed a little bit and it became quite clear that her fundamental issues still exist. I just think people are judging too early and haven't quite used or adjusted to the new mechanics or speed.

Serious discussion implies testing new things and keeping an open mind and being willing to adjust to a new playstyle. Not that there can't be any fun. There didn't seem to be a problem until I mentioned more advanced stuff that could advance Zelda's meta. I feel like some people are currently struggling figuring out the new mechanics and stuff and being a little sensitive about any possible insinuation of change or that they are not quite there yet.

Oz and I have been having a lot of productive conversations and figuring out new stuff and that is what I originally came here for. That doesn't mean everyone has to do what we do, but I do think people need to keep an open mind and try new things until everyone becomes familiar enough with Ultimate's meta to say anything definitive.

 

[BJN39]

No ye I would recommend using ophilia’s Thread or cultivating another thread too because a social and this social is not really a place for clean-flowing comp discussion. Maybe once in a while I’ll oost a cute fact in here for the Zeldas too see but my real Meta game work will be coming out of other threads, at least myself! I won’t speak for others!

I’m fully invested in Zelda’s Meta game and I’ll digital slaP anyone who doubts such because I don’t take everything so seriously, (i’m not aimed at you stoic) but as a Zelda data enthusiast now slowly getting to tear down her raw hitbox data, verify what has changed or not, and what uses may be found, I’m rightfully keeping this future—

after the meta developed a little bit ... it became quite clear that her fundamental issues still exist.

—In my pocket as a realistic outcome. Still not convinced she’s magically escaped such a fate completely with Phantom and a couple qols.

 

[StoicPhantom]

No ye I would recommend using ophilia’s Thread or cultivating another thread too because a social and this social is not really a place for clean-flowing comp discussion. Maybe once in a while I’ll oost a cute fact in here for the Zeldas too see but my real Meta game work will be coming out of other threads, at least myself! I won’t speak for others!

I’m fully invested in Zelda’s Meta game and I’ll digital slaP anyone who doubts such because I don’t take everything so seriously, (i’m not aimed at you stoic) but as a Zelda data enthusiast now slowly getting to tear down her raw hitbox data, verify what has changed or not, and what uses may be found, I’m rightfully keeping this future—

I understand. I didn't mean to derail the social thread with comp stuff, just meant to reply to that specific post.

—In my pocket as a realistic outcome. Still not convinced she’s magically escaped such a fate completely with Phantom and a couple qols.

I think those options help quite a lot, but by themselves are not a magic bullet. My optimism is more in the new mechanics themselves. Parry isn't something I can do well, but the times I accidentally did them, I managed to shutdown a fast sword character like Chrom. I think, once people start becoming better with it and others, we will find the current meta of spamming hitboxs change. That's why I'm reserving definitive judgement, until things like that, become a thing.

 

[Princess Toady]

Speaking of BAN•ZELDA, did these cowards remove the • character to prevent us from perpetuating this meme?!

It's an outrage to our goddess. Now I have to settle for BAN-ZELDA when making public arenas to troll some people with our Low Tier resident.

 

[BJN39]

BAN•ZELDA.


Guess not
I have it on my mobile keyboard of that makes a difference

Edit: eaux my massive aneurism I just goT that yew meant in game...LOL

 

[Princess Toady]

Oh ya, sorry, I didn't make it particularly explicit there lol.

Also, I'm sorry to intrude on that wonderful Phantom Discussion ( ), but have we spent some time complaining about her jab yet?

Like, her basic jab is useless and even Bowser keeps falling out of her rapid jab when he hasn't even reached 100%. This is really sad.

Even sadder than people falling off her Forward Smash. Cause we're used to that after so many games, I mean.

 

[McKnightlíght]

dw gorls i just have to make it clear that i am a TRUE zelda main
only then am i allowed to say things about the character that is obvious

goddamnit Nammy, that killed me.

 

[Rickster]

Ok gorls pls don't hate me for this but I really feel like the new Jab isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be

1. Zelda's fastest option is now frame 4, down from frame 5

2. The FAF is apparently only 1 frame later than old Jab
2a. Yes, the damage is waaay lower for almost the same frame commitment, but it still has decent range for a Jab and is still disjointed
2b. The hitbox is lower so it hits short characters easier
2c. The rapid jab can help in certain situations, like stopping a Sonic spinning towards you or a Falcon dash dancing around to fish for a dash grab. The old jab required your timing to be precise

3. I'm still experimenting with this, but training mode registers Jab 1 (and 2 I guess since there are actually 2 hits before the rapid sparkles) into Dtilt/Dsmash as a combo. I know training is kinda meh when it comes to confirming combos, but Jab 1 doesn't cause tumble so it might actually be correct this time. On real opponents, I've managed to get both Jab>Dtilt and Jab>Jab>rapid Jab finisher to work

4. Jab will now beat spotdodge

5. Jab now kills so it isn't useless at high %
5a. Jab in general is more useful at all %s since you don't have to knock them away (old jab became really lame after mid % because it didn't kill or lead into anything, it was just a poke)

Tl;dr Jab isn't as bad as many are making it out to be

 

[McKnightlíght]

I've been able to use it pretty effectively too. What is the FAF on Nayru's now?

 

[BJN39]

I've been able to use it pretty effectively too. What is the FAF on Nayru's now?

Nayru’s FAF is 58. 2F sooner than before, but the endlag is the same. The 2F were cut off the startup.

 

[Gay Ginger]

but have we spent some time complaining about her jab yet?

We have, but I'm always down to complain about it. Her new jab is my least favorite change.

Jab isn't as bad as many are making it out to be

It's not a bad move, but it's a fairly substantial nerf to her neutral game as far as I'm concerned.

Her new jab is a fast, get-off-me move that works really well up close and deals decent damage, but she already has other good/decent options for that: d-tilt, d-smash, and NL. Her new jab can be a better option than those moves depending on the situation (you already covered most of its benefits), but I feel like she lost an important part of her kit in exchange for something she already did fairly well.

Being a better combo starter aside, her old jab was a safe spacing tool and a decent anti-air. Her new jab's poor range/hitbox makes it ineffective for spacing, and it completely fails as an anti-air move. Other than d-tilt, which has poor range and only hits low, Zelda doesn't really have any other safe spacing tools on the ground (in the MUs where Phantom doesn't work to keep them out). And in a game where SH aerials and aerial approaches are prominent, having worse anti-air options is not good.

Basically, her new jab is a good move, but I think her overall kit is worse off without her old jab. It's not what Zelda needs.

 

[Cress!]

Speaking of BAN•ZELDA, did these cowards remove the • character to prevent us from perpetuating this meme?!

It's an outrage to our goddess. Now I have to settle for BAN-ZELDA when making public arenas to troll some people with our Low Tier resident.

Nah dw it's still there, just really hidden. Click the globe and change your keyboard to Symbol (the very last option). It's in the middle of the first page.
I've been repping my BAN•ZELDA tag every game so far.

 

[Katy Parry]

Yikes.

S StoicPhantom

Phantom is amazing, best tool Zelda has. It really did buff her neutral.

Her meta is going to develop with Phantom. There's two sides to this coin. People who are using Phantom randomly, and people who are not using Phantom in the times that it is best used. Eventually, those will converge together.

It eventually will come down to character specific match ups. Against Snake, Phantom destroys his projectile game, her reflector protects her from any thrown over the phantom, and her up B calls out his recovery.

Then you have Chrom, who will rush her down and will make Phantom less usable only due to speed.

Players you should know:
Mysterica is an excellent Zelda and I'm lucky to have found a friend who goes to locals, and is winning our weeklies with Zelda, and placing high in monthlies.

Ven is considered the best Smash 4 Zelda around, and he largely agrees people are sleeping on Zelda. You should check out his Twitter and say hello, he's very friendly.

And trust me, I personally understand connecting with the character out of love for the actual character herself, or her kit. I understand feeling like you want to discuss her viability with others who feel as passionately as you and the thing is, not everyone here is going to be into it as much as you are. They maraude the hope you have because they've lost it themselves. That's definitely something I learned posting here. That's something I learned playing Melee Zelda for 17 years.
But they're are still people out there who DO want to discuss her as deeply as you. I myself am one of those people. The newest Japanese tier list places Zelda as A tier, higher than Bayonetta. That's exciting. Mew2King said he can't see her lower than high tier. Mew2King said that.

There was a time in Melee when Zelda was considered one of the best characters, top 5. And since later realized she was one of the worst, a lot of people have permanently lost the hope they once had for her, and now that ultimates been released and people are saying she's top tier, people think history is repeating itself. You have to allow them that rationality. It's like being scratched by a cat, and then when someone tells you years later this new cat isn't going to stratch you, a defense mechanism kicks in and convinces them they'll get scratched again. It's not their fault for thinking this way. Let's call it trama. XD

If anything you should seek out the Zelda discord that Mysterica started. It's a great place with active members already posting everything they can find. Find him on twitter. Don't lose your light, and post in my competitive discussion thread. Don't let some old hag sistas shake your young, fresh perspective. Your ideas and opinions matter.

At the end of the day, you need to play her as much as you can. Even if you lose, pick the controller back up and embrace losing. If you always win, you'll never know what you can learn from. Because it comes down to skill between the two players sitting there in front of that TV at your local, NOT what's written down on digtal paper and message boards.

Stay Sassy. <3

 

[Ffamran]

I propose that Zelda's Dair should be frame 10 (or even faster) and that the clean hit should be active for 2 frames because apparently Falco's dumbass Dair clean hit is active for 5 frames: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=609586896.

Falco's Dair is frame 10 on startup and I'm pretty sure its clean hit does not have a sourspot, so its clean hit is a frame 10, 5 active frames spike. Falco's Dair is essentially his signature move, so it needed to be remotely good coming from Smash 4, but this is a bit much. I figured that with them making it frame 10 that its active frames would be cut back to at least 3 frames not increased. Meanwhile all these other characters with spikes that are +14 frames on startup and have 1-3 active frames.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Nah dw it's still there, just really hidden. Click the globe and change your keyboard to Symbol (the very last option). It's in the middle of the first page.
I've been repping my BAN•ZELDA tag every game so far.

BJN, this comment makes it so that this thread is now a guide. Please give it the appropriate tag, or else.

-Sincerely, Evan

 

[Daidarapochi]

The more I play the Snake/Inkling matchup with Z the more fun they become. Inkling players are apparently too good to stick around for more than 2 but Snakes always seem to play at least 8 or so rounds.

Also managed to steal a kill from myself twice today, both times LKing someone on a platform and then Phantom comes in with the Upper Slash and it's weaker KB to keep em alive :/

 

[JigglyZelda003]

but have we spent some time complaining about her jab yet?

Like, her basic jab is useless and even Bowser keeps falling out of her rapid jab when he hasn't even reached 100%. This is really sad.

Even sadder than people falling off her Forward Smash. Cause we're used to that after so many games, I mean.

Saw that the other day I think it was ganon (again) cheating his way out of Fsmash but it doesnt happen often. Thankfully

Ok gorls pls don't hate me for this but I really feel like the new Jab isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be

1. Zelda's fastest option is now frame 4, down from frame 5

2. The FAF is apparently only 1 frame later than old Jab
2a. Yes, the damage is waaay lower for almost the same frame commitment, but it still has decent range for a Jab and is still disjointed
2b. The hitbox is lower so it hits short characters easier
2c. The rapid jab can help in certain situations, like stopping a Sonic spinning towards you or a Falcon dash dancing around to fish for a dash grab. The old jab required your timing to be precise

3. I'm still experimenting with this, but training mode registers Jab 1 (and 2 I guess since there are actually 2 hits before the rapid sparkles) into Dtilt/Dsmash as a combo. I know training is kinda meh when it comes to confirming combos, but Jab 1 doesn't cause tumble so it might actually be correct this time. On real opponents, I've managed to get both Jab>Dtilt and Jab>Jab>rapid Jab finisher to work

4. Jab will now beat spotdodge

5. Jab now kills so it isn't useless at high %
5a. Jab in general is more useful at all %s since you don't have to knock them away (old jab became really lame after mid % because it didn't kill or lead into anything, it was just a poke)

Tl;dr Jab isn't as bad as many are making it out to be

correct me if I am wrong but wasnt Brawl Dsmash f4 before Rosalind stole it from us? Just asking if BJN39 bjwould like to verify.

Training mode is still kinda broke and I honestly find myself staying away from there since it still gives imaginary combos I feel. Like I was doing jab>grab early on with Zelda cause Edwin sis said it still worked and for a while I was having success but playing my friend later he was able to run away before the grab even started... it could just be her slow grab but I'm not sure jab>dtilt works if someone were to mash a fast button.

We have, but I'm always down to complain about it. Her new jab is my least favorite change.



It's not a bad move, but it's a fairly substantial nerf to her neutral game as far as I'm concerned.

Her new jab is a fast, get-off-me move that works really well up close and deals decent damage, but she already has other good/decent options for that: d-tilt, d-smash, and NL.

Tbh jab is better than dsmash. Dsmash feels like it's so slow and almost everytime I try to use it as a get off me move i get punished for it or its just blocked before it even hits. It doesnt even kill like before, rip dsmash.

Her new jab can be a better option than those moves depending on the situation (you already covered most of its benefits), but I feel like she lost an important part of her kit in exchange for something she already did fairly well.

Being a better combo starter aside, her old jab was a safe spacing tool and a decent anti-air. Her new jab's poor range/hitbox makes it ineffective for spacing, and it completely fails as an anti-air move. Other than d-tilt, which has poor range and only hits low, Zelda doesn't really have any other safe spacing tools on the ground (in the MUs where Phantom doesn't work to keep them out). And in a game where SH aerials and aerial approaches are prominent, having worse anti-air options is not good.

Basically, her new jab is a good move, but I think her overall kit is worse off without her old jab. It's not what Zelda needs.

I think its letting go of the old jab that's the problem, kind of like dtilt with it's new angle. Jab isnt bad and had the combo buffs and angle changes from smash4 not happened I think I would like the new jab more too but right now I'm finding it hard to use it because it doesnt do things like it used to on top of not being as safe.

It does feel like the front face blindspot protection old jab had is a very missing feature now tho. Usmash is slow and utilt isnt bad but too early on an utilt and Zeldas face is just wide open till she puts her arm down lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh ya, sorry, I didn't make it particularly explicit there lol.

Also, I'm sorry to intrude on that wonderful Phantom Discussion ( ), but have we spent some time complaining about her jab yet?

Like, her basic jab is useless and even Bowser keeps falling out of her rapid jab when he hasn't even reached 100%. This is really sad.

Even sadder than people falling off her Forward Smash. Cause we're used to that after so many games, I mean.

That's a Bowser-specific thing, he ignores pretty much every rapid jab now.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Nah dw it's still there, just really hidden. Click the globe and change your keyboard to Symbol (the very last option). It's in the middle of the first page.
I've been repping my BAN•ZELDA tag every game so far.

This is honestly the most important post that has been made over the past 100 pages.

thnx 4 ur selfless service sis

 

[Nintendan]

HEY GORLS!
Pretty new to competitive Smash (or at least learning and trying to get better). I only started trying to actively learn the game about 6 months ago on Smash 4 (Ultimate got me hype), but now it's here! I'm playing the hell out of it and damn I love it every bit I thought I would.

I've been messing around with a few characters and they're all fun, but about a week ago I gave Zelda a shot and LIGHTNING KICK IS SO SATISFYING, MAINED!
I've been playing pretty much nothing but her since and I think she's locked in as the first character I want to main and learn the game with.
I'll likely be hovering around the Zelda boards from here on out, asking (a lot) and hopefully helping out a bunch of others too where I can! I'm really looking forward to getting into competitive Smash.

Oh, and thanks for making this place feel super chill and fun to hang out at! Some of the stuff you guys post has had me chuckling, it's great.

Yeah, don't really have anything to add to the conversation with this post but just wanted to post something and let y'all know great you are and how hyped I am to be here!

 

[Lavani]

correct me if I am wrong but wasnt Brawl Dsmash f4 before Rosalind stole it from us?

idk about brawl, but in 4 zelda's dsmash was 5f while rosa's was 6

also hi gorls

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

So Let’s Make Moves, supposedly the first Ultimate Major (That sounds over the top) concluded and it was FANTASTIC! I have high hopes for the competitive scene for this game. Anyway, here are the results for those who missed it.

Spoiler: Let’s Make Moves Top 8

1st: Tweek ()
2nd: Dabuz ()
3rd: Larry Lurr ()
4th: Nairo ()
5th: Samsora ()
5th: Light ()
7th: Gen ()
7th: ZD ()

 

[Lil Puddin]

In unrelated news, apparently you can get NY!Fjorm or NY!Levanafuhnfiuefbnuiswbgf from January's Orb Deal and it's a super affordable 74.99 w/ 140 orbs!

I actually hope this is a bad meme.

Please let it be a bad meme.

If it's actually real...

Pls, don't do it IS.

Not like this.

 

[McKnightlíght]

HEY GORLS!
Pretty new to competitive Smash (or at least learning and trying to get better). I only started trying to actively learn the game about 6 months ago on Smash 4 (Ultimate got me hype), but now it's here! I'm playing the hell out of it and damn I love it every bit I thought I would.

I've been messing around with a few characters and they're all fun, but about a week ago I gave Zelda a shot and LIGHTNING KICK IS SO SATISFYING, MAINED!
I've been playing pretty much nothing but her since and I think she's locked in as the first character I want to main and learn the game with.
I'll likely be hovering around the Zelda boards from here on out, asking (a lot) and hopefully helping out a bunch of others too where I can! I'm really looking forward to getting into competitive Smash.

Oh, and thanks for making this place feel super chill and fun to hang out at! Some of the stuff you guys post has had me chuckling, it's great.

Yeah, don't really have anything to add to the conversation with this post but just wanted to post something and let y'all know great you are and how hyped I am to be here!

Welcome. We are mean gorls and I am Regina George. If you want to fit in...

• Don't wear a tank top two days in a row!
• You can only wear a ponytail once a week!
• On Wednesday You Wear Pink!
• Before you buy an article of clothing, show it to me, Regina George.
• You can only wear blue jeans or track/sweat pants on Friday!

 

[Princess Toady]

I have lost all hope for Fire Emblem Heroes tbh.

Now I'm mostly autoing with my favorite unit and I summon from time to time but it's very...meh. At this point I'm hoping for more Fates Alts to let the salt flow.

Someone had told me that Laegwarmer would be free though. Was that misinformation?