Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[Gay Ginger]

Or just don't jab.

I've learned this the hard way, believe me.

Thanks for the info about his Tough Guy trait, though.

 

[Ffamran]

BJN39 , dropping this onto you in case you want more resources to double check your frame data findings for Zelda: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=346281106.

 

[BJN39]

BJN39 , dropping this onto you in case you want more resources to double check your frame data findings for Zelda: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nf1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=346281106.

HmmT mine is all the same as this,

Except Dthrow.

Not sure where they’re getting like, 27F if endlag because it’s without a doubt much better than that. (I got 18F of endlag) 27F sounds like preptch SSB4 zelda.....

 

[Ffamran]

HmmT mine is all the same as this,

Except Dthrow.

Not sure where they’re getting like, 27F if endlag because it’s without a doubt much better than that. (I got 18F of endlag) 27F sounds like preptch SSB4 zelda.....

Yeah, not sure about that. I just looked at Zapp Branniglenn 's section for Zelda and he got 61 total frames for Zelda: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fmDed-NoczEq28BbnEvqD4NQ7I/edit#gid=400688521.

You got 69 total frames and the Japanese group got 78. Zelda is simply a mysterious creature, I guess.

 

[Daidarapochi]

Hot take, Zelda's new jab is much worse for the game she's trying to play now. Everything you really want out of her new jab already existed in D-tilt, and now they buggered them both.

Experimenting with pivot grabs a bit more and her Hitbox for it seems pretty wonky and big.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's Tough Guy trait was improved in this game. I'm not sure to what extent, though, like I think there's a formula or set amount of knockback he can endure and moves that go over that is when Tough Guy doesn't work. The Bowser boards are working on it and so far it seems like all rapid jabs are something he can tough out to very high percents: https://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-tough-guy-armor-test-analysis.464767/.

Zelda's in particular, a post says he can tank her rapid jabs until 320%. If you're going to use jab against Bowser, going to for the minimum amount of hits is probably the best way to go and hope that the Bowser isn't mashing one of his faster options to interrupt you. Or just don't jab.

Bowser's Tough Guy was not improved in this game. Or at least we have no proof or disproof of this claim until somebody starts laying out knockback in "units" and can confirm knockback itself is unchanged from 4. Until then, it's just a list of what works and what doesn't. I do notice they remembered to increase its armor threshold in accordance to the 1v1 damage multiplier. So It's improved in the sense that they remembered not to unintentionally nerf it...I guess?

Anyway, the reason why Bowser can Tough Guy multijabs better in this game is because of the multijabs themselves. They have less damage/knockback, and hit more often. It's a global change meant to make it so they're harder to escape with just DI, but SDI is a bigger factor since you're spending comparatively much more of your time in hitlag. And since they were made weaker, that makes them sit under Bowser's Tough Guy threshold for much longer compared to Smash 4.

Yeah, not sure about that. I just looked at Zapp Branniglenn 's section for Zelda and he got 61 total frames for Zelda: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...fmDed-NoczEq28BbnEvqD4NQ7I/edit#gid=400688521.

You got 69 total frames and the Japanese group got 78. Zelda is simply a mysterious creature, I guess.

That throw would be easier to count if Zelda and the victim weren't engulfed in flames making it hard to see when the animation is continuing or stuck in hitlag. Anyway, endlag is what matters when it comes to throws

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Random, irrelevant thoughts time:
So, Bayonetta was probably my second most used character in Smash 4 behind Zelda and was another character I knew pretty well inside and out and I must say... Zelda feels better to than Bayo play now. Did Bayo deserve nerfs? Absolutely! Did she deserve to be gutted and have almost everything good about her removed other than mobility? Not in my opinion. Bayonetta is one of my favorite video game characters from one of my favorite series, and it's just so sad to see how she's been treated. Everything about her just feels bad.

The runner ups for other feelsbad characters include the following: . I'm definitely not saying they're bad, but they don't feel as good to play as before for whatever reason. With Pokémon Trainer, Charizard especially feels off, and he was a heavy I used to like to play a lot. I would put on this list, but they've never felt good to play.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

A little more investigating and I think you’re spot on; tested hitting from a dozen different angles, proximities, heights, etc, and came up with this:
View attachment 183614

Red is theoretical hit 1, green is hit 2. This would alone cover every placement I tested. There might be some shoulder thing, because there’s 2 different hit angles on aerial targets, but it would be mostly in the other hitbox, but presumably with hit priority. Either way, neat that you can’t really crouch it that easily. For clarity the initial crouch hit image was on hit 2, which reaches farther/lower.

In other news it’s a terrible anti air move now. Doesn’t even reach above her finger tips...

Fun fact tho despite being high I remember in brawl(I'm sure it was brawl) zeldas jab reach the floor to jab lock but not on a squatting kirby lol.

At first, I was in love with her new jab. But now I'm feeling a lot more mixed, and I often find myself wishing she had her old jab back,

It sucks as a defensive move now because of its new hitbox, and losing it as an AA move hurts. And although her old jab was slow for a neutral B, it had almost no endlag so it was one of her few safe moves in neutral. Now it has bad endlag making it very unsafe. It's also not super reliable, as I've had multiple different Bowser players all but ignore its multi-hit and attack me through it. Maybe it doesn't have enough hitstun?

Since her down tilt has lost a lot of its combo potential, the fact that her neutral A also can't combo like in Sm4sh hurts too. Maybe my opinion will change as I adapt and get better, but right now I think Zelda's neutral game sucks.

At least her new jab looks pretty and feels satisfying to land lol.

I've been doing jab1>utilt or grab until higher percents when jab1 magically pushes them away to prevent infinites on noobs. I feel we have basically turned into Pally with the way to use our jab despite ours not really being a true situation(they can mash a button)

I am mixed on her jab as well mostly because dtilt has been jab for so long I felt zelda didnt need a Jab because she had one. I dont hate this jab, but coming from smash4 jab and all the bonus changes to jab in smash 4 making it a spacing and a combo tool it feels like this new jab just gave all that up to be like everyone else....it lost its identity as the Zelda jab.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I am mixed on her jab as well mostly because dtilt has been jab for so long I felt zelda didnt need a Jab because she had one. I dont hate this jab, but coming from smash4 jab and all the bonus changes to jab in smash 4 making it a spacing and a combo tool it feels like this new jab just gave all that up to be like everyone else....it lost its identity as the Zelda jab.

I feel the same way.

Losing jab as a spacing / anti-air tool has been tough for me. It's okay against the characters that the Phantom walls well, but I feel like it makes it much more difficult against characters that can get around her Phantom. It wouldn't be so bad if they improved the range on Jab 1, but right now its range/hitbox is awful

As someone above me said, I don't think her jab works very well with her kit overall.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Anyone want to play?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Anyone want to play?

I'm about to go eat but we can try and play later if I get back on or tomorrow

 

[McKnightlíght]

I'll be home around 9 EST

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Hot take, Zelda's new jab is much worse for the game she's trying to play now. Everything you really want out of her new jab already existed in D-tilt, and now they buggered them both.

Jab is pretty buffed in spite of it's landing lag, if you ask me. You put up a decent wall, for decent damage, and being Frame 4 is a huge buff, if you ask me. It also has pretty decent range, and definitely more than D-Tilt. You don't always want to approach with D-Tilt. You can also still throw out the first hit, and apparently combos into other things, such as D-Smash or an actual D-Tilt.

Experimenting with pivot grabs a bit more and her Hitbox for it seems pretty wonky and big.

I use Pivot Grabs far more than standing and dash grabs. I basically spam them...their range isn't anything to call home about. It takes a pretty solid read from something like reading an opponent's Dash Attack (like Fox or Ganondorf). In these cases, it seems longer because they extend their hurtboxes, beforehand.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Thought Cress! Cress! Cress! would appreciate the Kaito-Hector on reddit atm so I'm posting it here too.

Spoiler: image 2 big but so is hector's muscles so it's even i guess

Jab is pretty buffed in spite of it's landing lag, if you ask me. You put up a decent wall, for decent damage, and being Frame 4 is a huge buff, if you ask me. It also has pretty decent range, and definitely more than D-Tilt. You don't always want to approach with D-Tilt. You can also still throw out the first hit, and apparently combos into other things, such as D-Smash or an actual D-Tilt.

I like her new jab but hate the range. Her kit is still fundamentally flawed, like WFT's kit. "Yeah you got the power and your specials are even better, but you got the same ol' drawbacks. And people with the same power (or more) have less drawbacks. OopsT!" Zelda just seems to have 2 smol range for everything but her specials. She's still so much better than her original version thanks to the overall buffs, but her MUs didn't drastically change. She just has more windows of opportunity for harassing and sneaking in KOs without having to get someone to 150%+ first. A slightly better hurtbox placement is also helpful (tad bit shorter).

I hope Nair is fixed. It was almost OK before only because it was her fastest aerial with sad range (like everything else in her kit anyway), but now it doesn't connect. It's still small. And the stun is too small to use drag-downs into combos unless it's Nair 1 which is so specific/early that it may as well not be a thing.

But um... At least... She received buffs she needed across the board. Whereas WFT got buffs to ha already good specials and lesser buffs to the real problem areas.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Not even gonna lie, I think this Zelda is perfect.

In more ways than one, anyway.

 

[Gay Ginger]

I hope Nair is fixed. It was almost OK before only because it was her fastest aerial with sad range (like everything else in her kit anyway), but now it doesn't connect

I had a Link dead to rights off-stage. I hit him directly with N-air, only for it to phase through him and allow him to get back on stage, putting me at a disadvantage. Ended up eating a Smash attack trying to get back up from the ledge and losing the match :/

 

[Ffamran]

BJN39 , gravity and traction are listed on this page of that spreadsheet I linked yesterday: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...f1GGIteH35UX3IM7-mnbdG6eE/edit#gid=1016493459. Gravity is under "重力" and traction is under "地上抵抗".

Ultimate Zelda's gravity is 0.071, unchanged, and traction is 0.116, a +0.062 increase to her 0.054 traction in Smash 4. Her traction is a little over her Melee traction of 0.1 now.

 

[McKnightlíght]

JigglyZelda003 Sorry I lied, you still up?

 

[Cress!]

btw I'm basically done with FE Heroes and moved onto Dragalia instead. I still check in daily for orbs and maybe I'll play Aether Raids if I remember and then lose to another Rein/B!Lyn/B!Veronica/L!Lucina/Dancer team and not be bothered enough to worry over all the points I'm losing. But other than that yea I'm done with this thing. Maybe this is half-coming from awful summoning luck lately, but really how tf did I get 4 off-focus 5 stars on the Hero Fest banner and not a single focus unit. I just wanted a spare Eir, and not for the light blessing or merges or any meta reason like that I just want to give her B skill to Julia and/or Deirdre so that she can counter dragons again like she was supposed to.
I'm enjoying Dragalia a lot more than I expected tho. The characters are all qt and have full backstories and stuff.

Thought Cress! Cress! Cress! would appreciate the Kaito-Hector on reddit atm so I'm posting it here too.

Spoiler: image 2 big but so is hector's muscles so it's even i guess

Already saw this on Twitter earlier but thx for looking out for me gorl

Related sorta but there was an official Kaito shirt that released about a month ago, but it was $52 I think and it went out of stock pretty quickly. The price scared me off and I didn't get one.
Yesterday they got 4 more back in stock and I got it for $9. Thanks muchly Christmas miracles. Well the shipping added like another 20 but it's still a lot cheaper so yea

 

[StoicPhantom]

I use Pivot Grabs far more than standing and dash grabs. I basically spam them...their range isn't anything to call home about. It takes a pretty solid read from something like reading an opponent's Dash Attack (like Fox or Ganondorf). In these cases, it seems longer because they extend their hurtboxes, beforehand.

I find Zelda's grab really wonky. Sometimes it works like I think it should and other times I watch it go right through my opponent, who then proceeds to do the world's latest spot dodge and yet still has time to punish me, somehow.

I hope Nair is fixed. It was almost OK before only because it was her fastest aerial with sad range (like everything else in her kit anyway), but now it doesn't connect. It's still small. And the stun is too small to use drag-downs into combos unless it's Nair 1 which is so specific/early that it may as well not be a thing.

I had a Link dead to rights off-stage. I hit him directly with N-air, only for it to phase through him and allow him to get back on stage, putting me at a disadvantage. Ended up eating a Smash attack trying to get back up from the ledge and losing the match :/

Are you guys sure you aren't DIing too far from your opponent? We now have the aerial mobility to DI out of our own attacks. Make sure you're DIing into your opponent with Nair, so you don't miss the finisher.

I like her new jab but hate the range. Her kit is still fundamentally flawed, like WFT's kit. "Yeah you got the power and your specials are even better, but you got the same ol' drawbacks. And people with the same power (or more) have less drawbacks. OopsT!" Zelda just seems to have 2 smol range for everything but her specials. She's still so much better than her original version thanks to the overall buffs, but her MUs didn't drastically change. She just has more windows of opportunity for harassing and sneaking in KOs without having to get someone to 150%+ first. A slightly better hurtbox placement is also helpful (tad bit shorter).

I think her kit is fine as it is and if you dropped her current version in Smash 4, she'd be top tier. I think she just got screwed by the new mechanics in Ultimate. This game seems to be based around speed and aerial spamming and she doesn't have the ability to do that at the moment. Things seem to be currently dominated by sword characters because they have speed, range, combos, knockback, and hitboxs that are wide, sweeping, and have no need for precision.

Zelda on the other hand is slow, has little range, and her moves require precision. So it makes it difficult, to safely hit characters that can always DI fast and with lots of distance, especially if they do nothing but hop around the stage spamming disjointed aerials. But the biggest problem I think, is how easily she is combo'd and light she is. Most KO moves I've seen, can KO her at around 100%, meaning she can be put half-way to KO percentage off of one combo. She lacks the aerial mobility to DI out of combos and can be carried half-way across the stage and be put on the ledge, where she has no landing options and can take lots of damage, just trying to get back on the stage.

The defensive nerfs, now seem to only apply to characters that relied on them to cover their landing and get-up weaknesses, since DI seems to be the new jump now. Even with all the fear-mongering around Chrom's recovery at the beginning, we now see he has the aerial mobility to DI towards the ledge and recover low, where he can take advantage of the super-armor and spike hitbox. He can now avoid any attempts to edgeguard and is being considered top tier, for that and other reasons.

This is now a problem for Zelda, because characters can recover low and avoid Phantom/Din's Fire and make us have to rely on our small and precise Dair to successfully edgeguard. Even then, recovery gimmicks can make spiking impossible. Or they have have a really high jump and good aerial mobility to jump over any of Zelda's lacking anti-air and safely land on the top platform.

If Zelda wants to compete with the currently considered top tier, she needs an aerial mobility boost, less combo-stun or better range in her anti-air, I think. If she can get any of those, she can possibly be considered top tier.

All that being said though, I think our view on this, might be a little skewed given that all her bad match-ups are currently dominating the(at least online) meta and if people would play more than 10 characters, I think we would see how well-off Zelda is compared to the rest of the cast. Try pitting a Game & Watch or Little Mac against her and see how much they struggle.

I still consider her a solid high tier, some characters just get so much off of the new mechanics, while she gets a little screwed, that things seem a little disproportionate right now in some match-ups. Maybe that will change, in future updates.

Not even gonna lie, I think this Zelda is perfect.

In more ways than one, anyway.

I agree. I don't really feel like there needs to be any changes to her moveset as it currently is, except maybe have a little more upwards range on Up-Smash. Just on her base stats, disadvantage and possibly making her sweet-spots need a little less precision. Although changes to her aerial mobility, might make those easier to hit anyways.

I really do like the new Zelda a lot, despite my current frustrations with some match-ups.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I find Zelda's grab really wonky. Sometimes it works like I think it should and other times I watch it go right through my opponent, who then proceeds to do the world's latest spot dodge and yet still has time to punish me, somehow.

I think our whiffed grab is like 40 Frames, so it makes sense.

Hopefully, I'm wrong.

I agree. I don't really feel like there needs to be any changes to her moveset as it currently is, except maybe have a little more upwards range on Up-Smash. Just on her base stats, disadvantage and possibly making her sweet-spots need a little less precision. Although changes to her aerial mobility, might make those easier to hit anyways.

I really do like the new Zelda a lot, despite my current frustrations with some match-ups.

I thought Smash 4 Bowser was very good right off the bat, back when I mained him. To me, he was perfect even without his grab kill confirms. But people always find an excuse (no offense to people here).

I'd probably only change U-Smash horizontal hitbox. Either that, or I just have to get better at it.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I thought Smash 4 Bowser was very good right off the bat, back when I mained him. To me, he was perfect even without his grab kill confirms. But people always find an excuse (no offense to people here).

I'd probably only change U-Smash horizontal hitbox. Either that, or I just have to get better at it.

You should see him now, if you haven't already. I'm not sure he can really be classified as a "heavy" anymore, even if he is one of the heaviest characters in the game. I've really only run into one good Bowser but he two and three-stocked me, through all the matches we played. Even the not-so-good Bowsers, still give me a run for my money. I thought the changes to Ganondorf were ridiculous but Bowser is on a whole nother level. You should try him, when you get the chance.

 

[Katy Parry]

https://twitter.com/SUGOI_ven/status/1073449563246125056?s=19

If anyone says Zelda is bad in this game, you're just not playing her right. Lmfao.

 

[StoicPhantom]

https://twitter.com/SUGOI_ven/status/1073449563246125056?s=19

If anyone says Zelda is bad in this game, you're just not playing her right. Lmfao.

That was pretty great. She definitely has the best advantage of any character I have ever played. Once you finally get in, never let go.

 

[Ffamran]

Apparently this is a thing. All aboard Zelda's elevators, I guess.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Just came back from my first Ultimate weekly. I was about to refrain from ******** about, but I figure I don't really have much to lose at this point (actually, part of the lesson)...

Played ****ing awful. It's like everything I thought I learned- even but a simple gameplan, just wasn't there, in my head. It's like my head decided to dose off in an actual match. May as well not have done anything. Wouldn't have made a difference. I think the lesson here, it was getting to learn I'm just another awful player, and that I have apparently no right in losing to a "less-skilled" opponent. It's the same, when you don't have the hang of punishing dumb stuff your opponent does.

And I'll never blame my character on this. I'm 300% sure that was all me.

Apparently this is a thing. All aboard Zelda's elevators, I guess.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

jajaaja holy ****


It's worth mentioning I missed pretty much every single grab follow-up in spite of reading DI half the time.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Apparently this is a thing. All aboard Zelda's elevators, I guess.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

aaaaaaaaaaaay

I wonder if this works with all attacks? No wonder why people just spam aerials and run from me 90% of the time.

 

[Daidarapochi]

Online adventures, got WFT into elite, and got trounced by like 3 separate Ganondorf's. Probably because he was pretty free for Smash 4 Zelda and I still haven't learned any respect for his new stuff.

Also, please somebody tell me why snake becomes possessed here so I can calm down

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Online adventures, got WFT into elite, and got trounced by like 3 separate Ganondorf's. Probably because he was pretty free for Smash 4 Zelda and I still haven't learned any respect for his new stuff.

Also, please somebody tell me why snake becomes possessed here so I can calm down

Perhaps snake still has some hidden jank up his ass lol

 

[StoicPhantom]

Online adventures, got WFT into elite, and got trounced by like 3 separate Ganondorf's. Probably because he was pretty free for Smash 4 Zelda and I still haven't learned any respect for his new stuff.

Also, please somebody tell me why snake becomes possessed here so I can calm down

Seems like maybe the ledge cancelling shield breaks from Smash 4, might still exist. I remember having a few fails from pushing opponents too close to the ledge in 4.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Online adventures, got WFT into elite, and got trounced by like 3 separate Ganondorf's. Probably because he was pretty free for Smash 4 Zelda and I still haven't learned any respect for his new stuff.

Also, please somebody tell me why snake becomes possessed here so I can calm down

Like S StoicPhantom said, definitely some ledge-canceling jank going on.

Also I'm 100% jealous you were able to get a good map for online play. I always get crap maps or FD. Not a fan of battlefield since tight knight platforms and the inability to shorthop = laggy gorl's worst nightmare. :^(

 

[Gay Ginger]

Are you guys sure you aren't DIing too far from your opponent? We now have the aerial mobility to DI out of our own attacks. Make sure you're DIing into your opponent with Nair, so you don't miss the finisher.

I was DIing into him, not away. The hits just don't seem to always connect as they should.

It's not the worst problem, but it is a bit annoying.

 

[Rickster]

To put it bluntly Nair feels like a slightly improved Melee Nair

And that's terrible

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is that some kind of Archie.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I was DIing into him, not away. The hits just don't seem to always connect as they should.

It's not the worst problem, but it is a bit annoying.

To put it bluntly Nair feels like a slightly improved Melee Nair

And that's terrible

I'm not sure how you're using it but I've found success in using it as a wall to keep out people trying to invade my spacing bubble at center stage and at the ledge. I think it might be intended as an aerial that beats out other attacks, not as a combo tool anymore. I don't find many aerials that can start-up fast enough to defend against it except Sheik's and aerials that are meant for spacing and significantly outrange it.

It's basically my aerial jab and I use it to stuff aerial approaches and to preempt attacks that will cause a lot of problems in terms of space and stage control. It's range is short but it is very fast and perfect for center stage and platform battles and controlling space in general. You might not get a lot of combos anymore but it is very good for manipulating your opponent and micro-spacing.

If you're having issues with hits not connecting, maybe you're fast-falling it like the old one and thus falling out of the finisher? I'm not sure the way the multi-hit combos, is the same anymore and Zelda's hitboxs seem to be more precise in certain ways in general.

 

[Rickster]

I'm not sure how you're using it but I've found success in using it as a wall to keep out people trying to invade my spacing bubble at center stage and at the ledge. I think it might be intended as an aerial that beats out other attacks, not as a combo tool anymore. I don't find many aerials that can start-up fast enough to defend against it except Sheik's and aerials that are meant for spacing and significantly outrange it.

It's basically my aerial jab and I use it to stuff aerial approaches and to preempt attacks that will cause a lot of problems in terms of space and stage control. It's range is short but it is very fast and perfect for center stage and platform battles and controlling space in general. You might not get a lot of combos anymore but it is very good for manipulating your opponent and micro-spacing.

If you're having issues with hits not connecting, maybe you're fast-falling it like the old one and thus falling out of the finisher? I'm not sure the way the multi-hit combos, is the same anymore and Zelda's hitboxs seem to be more precise in certain ways in general.

Oh, what I meant was it drops people out by itself waaay too often, just like it did in Melee. It's strange considering how consistent it was for both Brawl and Smash 4

 

[Fuzzy__Pickles]

I want to address something for .
can someone give me an explanation to why people think the dark zelda is supposed to be Hilda? the two don't even looks remotely alike, it just seems really unlikely that it's supposed to be her.

Like, just look at them side by side, you'll see what im talking about.

 

[Lorde]

it's because people are dumb

that palette has been in the game since brawl, but people wouldn't know that because zelda wasn't an anime waifu back then

 

[McKnightlíght]

With those exposT toes!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I was DIing into him, not away. The hits just don't seem to always connect as they should.

It's not the worst problem, but it is a bit annoying.

To put it bluntly Nair feels like a slightly improved Melee Nair

And that's terrible

Oh, what I meant was it drops people out by itself waaay too often, just like it did in Melee. It's strange considering how consistent it was for both Brawl and Smash 4

I havent had that happen much but the consistency does feel closer to a better Melee nair than the brawl/smash4 one

But the knockback honestly gets me more. It's like you dont input a direction they dont fly far you inch even a bit and they fly really far away even at low percents, this is annoying on runaway and campers or just Olimar

I'm not sure how you're using it but I've found success in using it as a wall to keep out people trying to invade my spacing bubble at center stage and at the ledge. I think it might be intended as an aerial that beats out other attacks, not as a combo tool anymore. I don't find many aerials that can start-up fast enough to defend against it except Sheik's and aerials that are meant for spacing and significantly outrange it.

It's basically my aerial jab and I use it to stuff aerial approaches and to preempt attacks that will cause a lot of problems in terms of space and stage control. It's range is short but it is very fast and perfect for center stage and platform battles and controlling space in general. You might not get a lot of combos anymore but it is very good for manipulating your opponent and micro-spacing.

If you're having issues with hits not connecting, maybe you're fast-falling it like the old one and thus falling out of the finisher? I'm not sure the way the multi-hit combos, is the same anymore and Zelda's hitboxs seem to be more precise in certain ways in general.

If nair is still like it was in smash 4 in regards to its hitbox/trancendancy it's only a wall out one its active and as long as your opponent doesnt have more reach than you. Its frame6 which isn't that slow but when others have faster naira or aerials they lead with Zeldas Nair already has to be out there...but its trancendant so it doesnt protect her from trades for that 2% vs their 8%