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Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

KuroganeHammer

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
Cenizas said:
Congratulations Aero, you've finished your eight weeks today.

Here are some guidelines on posting your results :smash::
-Shirtless: Required
-Just Underwear: Highly Recommended
-Naked: Extra Credit
Click to expand...
Hmm, I think I'm being taken advantaged of. :distantplanet:
 
HeroMystic

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
6,473
Location
San Antonio, Texas
NNID
HeroineYaoki
3DS FC
2191-8960-7738
@ Berserker. Berserker.

-I seriously don't care what we pick for stocks. 2 or 3 is good. 3 is better for players, 2 is better for spectators. It depends on which you value more.
-For the timer, the sweetspot for 2-stock is 6 minutes. The sweetspot for 3 stock is 7 minutes. I also don't care if they decide to make it longer but anything below that is foolish imo.
-If you want my jaded opinion, I feel customs are too much of a hassle. The fact we have to do so much logistically to get them running says something, and I feel people waves this off too lightly. As for the custom moves themselves, they're not going to do what people want them to do (dethrone Diddy/Sheik), and it adds maybe two characters as popular tournament picks. On that end, it only becomes a "promote diversity" argument and this has really been overvalued for the longest time.

=====

I suppose this leads into the elephant in the room. I'll start with a little story. In Brawl, Metaknight has been a giant issue and really unhealthy to the game. I participated in the first two years of the serious considerations to banning MK. At first, I was Pro-Ban. But then I eventually switched to Anti-Ban. Why the switch? Because I eventually said "Lets just play the game for how it is, infinites and all." I said this because honestly, Brawl as a whole is a mess. It's deep and had a lot going for it, but it's basically screwed by character balance and heavily abusing it's mechanics. Metaknight is the biggest problem but it is definitely not the end of it all.

So in the end I kinda gave up on Brawl and went on hiatus. Now that I'm back, Brawl is dead, and we still have rules that weaken MK because he's still too good.

So here we are again, looking at Diddy. He's not the same power level as Metaknight, but he's probably just as dominant. Nintendo hasn't stated anything about this and I've seen where this road leads down to. I'll give my jaded opinion on this.

I agree with the veterans. Give it a year, and if nothing develops against him, ban Diddy. No ands, ifs, or buts about it.

====

Those are my opinions on the matter, but as a whole, the divides between the community sucks and I do wish we could unite. Honestly, I believe this mainly happened because we are overly concerned with being seen as a legit "E-Sports" game and that's the dumbest thing ever. Our priority should be on us. If we, as players, are not happy with how the game is then there's no point to anything we do.

The divide is worse than what it ever has been in Brawl, and that's something I'm honestly quite sad over.
 
SBphiloz4

SBphiloz4

Gatekeeper of the Shadows
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
3,649
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SBphiloz4
3DS FC
3325-2450-2084
Macchiato said:
I like 2 stock because it benefits zelda more than most
Click to expand...
I would counterargue that 2-stock is not enough time for Zelda to adjust to the opponent's habits, making it harder to get into the head of the opponent and take momentum. Playing Zelda is already playing catchup from the start, so losing that first stock is really bad when that means you only have one life left. This is worst when customs are on, as even more adjustment is needed, and 2-stock IMO is not enough time. In a 2-stock environment, this also means more campy play, which means opponents might play ultra safe and defensive, making it harder for a punish character like Zelda to thrive.

Sure we can do an easy 2-stock with rage FW and get early momentum swings, but our character is pretty prone to getting 2-stocked herself as momentum swings against her.

In short, I'm pretty anti-2stock. 2-stock customs is worse. :secretkpop:
 
WolfieXVII ❂

WolfieXVII ❂

stay woke
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
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Hall of Fame
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tresxvii
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4699-5598-8215
3 stocks allows for comebacks, ample time to understand your opponents habits and stuff
That's just me :happysheep:
Hay peeps
6 more days till I can change my name back
 
PUK

PUK

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 1, 2015
Messages
777
Location
Paris, not texas
NNID
Simlock92
3DS FC
4141-4118-5477
3 stock 8 min are common in France. And Diddy is considered a low tier (actually it's just my little brother who think that)
 
warionumbah2

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
Its a dance off. One guy does dance moves that take effort and practice, then the other guy does the most easiest most brain dead dance ever and wins.
 
FullMoon

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
6,095
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Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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INFullMoon
I almost managed to clear the 20 Crazy Orders with Mario challenge without using equipment, but then I died to Master and Crazy Hand.

 
NairWizard

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
berserker01 said:
Sorry man. You missed the beautiful avatar

Unfortunately, Lavani changed it because... things....

I think I also made my biggest post evar. Not really but it's about the community, and my perspective on several things about Smash 4:
Depiction of a pro diddy ban side

The thing with Diddy is that literally no one has an even match up or a positive match up against him. He beats everyone flat out. There's no way in hell that Sheik and Pikachu can handle Diddy at this point. His meta has out paced every other character's. Sheik is countered by Pikachu, and Pikachu is countered by any character that can space so they're balanced. Well... Sheik is borderline imbalanced but she isn't invincible and that's what matters. Diddy used to be iffy against Sheik and Pikachu but thanks to dat new technology, those match ups are now not problematic at all

If Diddy still has no counter after a year (at least), then a character ban may actually be something worth looking at. Smash bros. 4 seems to be more about counterpicking. You see a lot of professional players (Dabooze, N@K@T, Nairu, Fals3, Treluh, etc.) having multiple mains and they have fantastic results. Why? Because every character has a counter. Even the top tiers (Rosalina is borderline hopeless against Diddy) have horrendous match ups. Sheik blows against Pikachu so you're going to need another character that can deal with Piakchu well. That or you'll have to rely on outplaying the Pika player. Diddy doesn't seem to follow the trend. You can't really name one character that actually gives Diddy a run for his money. Only way you can beat Diddy is by respecting his whole moveset which is DUMB. I think everyone has gotten that message but that didn't stop Diddy at all

Because he's still winning all of them. If he isn't winning them, he's occupying a good percentage of top 4 or top 8:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-playhem-weeklies-4-livonia-3-19-15.395603
http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...ee-doubles-smash-4-project-m-smash-64.388331/
http://smashboards.com/threads/ktar-xii-results-106-entrants.395844/
http://smashboards.com/threads/no-m...read-melee-smash-wii-u-windsor-ontario.396323
http://smashboards.com/threads/umebura-13-tokyo-japan.394962/
http://smashboards.com/threads/fayettnam-march-wiiu-singles.396070/
http://smashboards.com/threads/sfc1-results-1v1-2v2-amiibos-cypress-da-goat.395938

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Depiction of an anti diddy ban side in a nutshell

Shut the **** up and play the damn game. Stop *****ing and adapt. Just put up with Diddy Kong despite all the logical claims you have presented. But really, stop *****ing and play the game. ADAPT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conclusion: This game is perennially F'd because of the excessive divides. Let's move on to Splatoon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you want my opinion on all the divides,

- I've always been for 3 stocks because of 2 things: Rage mechanic, and more time to adapt at mid-matches

- I'm okay with customs. Tbh, some of them are too janky. Customs need to be tested first. I'd rather play it safe. We're rushing it too early

- Idc about the time limit. The longer, the better but IDC. As long as it's not too short

- About Diddy... HMM.... This one's difficult. I'm sure you all know my relationship with this mother****er. Unfortunately, I'm pro-ban. Cuss at me all you want. Blame his meta game for growing 99 times faster than the rest of the roster. My reasons are up there in my depiction of pro-Diddy banning btw. TLDR: There's too much empirical and factual evidence backing this up BUT... I'll give it time. Until our lord and savior Mewtwo comes, or until a character develops into a legit Diddy counter. I guess.

- The divides really are killing this game. I guess I'm not helping but the reality is, you can't be neutral with this situation. Sorry guys, there's no middle ground. There are only 2 sides and no matter how calm and rationale or indifferent you guys are to this situation, you WILL take a side. If you don't take either of them, you probably aren't playing Smash 4 atm or you're just flat out indifferent and you're fine with whatever. To say to "simply play the game" is impossible at the moment because no one is at an agreement as to how you can play the game. I know I said this at the Zelda thread. When I said, "How about we just play the game instead of worrying about it's 'inevitable death'," that's basically as neutral as I can get with the divides. The only way you can actually enjoy the game is if you don't give a ****. If you just play it because well... you want to play it. HOWEVER, if you actually assume that this is your stance yet question the motives of any of the other divides, you're definitely not neutral. Not trying to justify taking a side in this madness. The only solution is if we all get together and agree on ONE thing which will be easier said than done

- I don't really care much about 3v3 or 4v4's. They're all fun imo

- Doubles >>> Singles. MegaZard is too fun
I think I went off track but idk. These are my opinions

Edit: I just want this BS to end tbh. I know some guy said that we're simply having a formal debate. I'm sorry. I'm not seeing that at all. Not in Smashboards, not in social media especially. I may have taken a side but that's because I have my own opinions. I can't help it, but I still go to tournaments that don't accustom to my tastes. I still go and play the game. Alright, now I'm sounding neutral atm. I still want 3 stocks/no customs/sort of ban Diddy but whatever. I'm still having fun with this game

AND LIKE I SAID, I WENT OFF TRACK/DOZED OFF WITH MY LONG POST

~end rant~
Click to expand...

Nice post, but Pikachu doesn't counter Sheik; if you derived that from our conversation then sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that mid-level Sheiks tend to empty hop into grab, because Sheik's air-to-ground transition is really good. The only Sheiks worth fearing are the ones who are innovative in neutral. Any Sheik who just plays cookie-cutter f-air spacing with needles and empty hops without any real thought put into the strategy is going to be in for a rude awakening against a seasoned Pikachu.

Some patterns are scarier than others.
Sheiks who abuse empty hop -> walk away (faster than dash away) -> dash in are scary.
Sheiks who use land -> crawl -> f-tilt are also scary, and hard to deal with for most of the cast.

But in general, Sheiks who play in a pattern will lose.

Sheik is so good in neutral not just because of the safety of her options but because of the variety of her options. If Sheik isn't using her full kit, she's readable, like any other character, and once you get a read on her it doesn't matter if you have 30:70 odds of landing your read, because you will kill earlier than Sheik does.

This is why I like playing Sonic vs. Sheik. Sonic with his insane ground speed just forces 50:50s in neutral over and over again, so Sheik doesn't have the room that she needs to be innovative in neutral. If Sonic just runs at you and shields in front of you, he can shieldgrab your jab. If Sonic predicts a defensive option or a grab he can dash, spindash, or run behind you and pivot grab (beats shield and spotdodge). From here, Sonic is both heavier and kills earlier than Sheik, so even winning 50% of the time is good enough. Needles are a bit of a pain to this strategy because they force a few more shields/defensive options (especially Penetrating Needles), so the matchup is probably even because of that (some Sonics will say slight Sheik's favor).

If you watch ZeRo play Diddy, notice how he uses dash -> shield on his way in, but dash -> nothing on his way out. The tactic is strong because Diddy's dash grab is strong (and most dash grabs are strong), and not hitting someone's shield causes additional frames of shield drop lag, so if someone puts up a shield in response to the dash in then ZeRo can quickly dash back in after dashing out. This is how he got many of his grabs at Apex.

That "nothing" on the way out is hard to perceive but important once you do perceive it: it cuts out a few frames for shield drop lag (because nothing is going to hit your shield when you run away from your opponent, usually), so that he can take his next action more quickly. Also you'll notice that he does this only when he has stage control (or usually), because otherwise he'd be dashing himself into a corner. This game is basically about positioning and minor frame advantages.

Surprise, Sheik is good at positioning and giving herself frame advantage. Sonic and Pikachu mess up the average Sheik's spacing with Quick Attack and ground speed, respectively, but once the Sheik player starts to use her entire kit of diverse options, her power to assert stage control is on par with their ability to negate it.

So for the Pikachu vs. Sheik matchup, it's even or slightly in Sheik's favor (with or without customs), imo.
 
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Brinzy

Brinzy

Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Joined
May 29, 2008
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Brinzy
Jeez. Got it to load.

Also I checked my Fire Emblem Awakening, and it says I have over 800 hours played. I'm sure a lot of that was idle time, but my god I love that game.
 
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