Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[TTTTTsd]

Feels more like the community than the players, though, regardless.

How often does a metagame revolve around one other character in any other series, regardless of how dumb it is? Like I can't be the only one who sees the entire high tier in this game and goes "They could probably all win it" but they're not, like, developed. I think ignoring the potential of the other high tiers in favor of the top one is just, lazy (not meaning to be rude buttt). Like I understand what you mean @ Fernosaur but outside of like, MVC3, how often is this actually the case? Looking at things like Tekken, SF, etc., you see a lot of different things regardless of tier in tournaments that DO actually pay money, like Capcom Cup, for instance, the prize for that was INSANE, and at the time I forget who the confirmed best char in USF4 was but Momochi took it with Ken of all characters (he might have switched once or twice) and you had people like PR Balrog making waves, etc. and trends like this in SF4 were common even when Yun was broken and dumb in SSF4, and stuff like Fei-Long, etc.

I would say it's a matter of the top chars taking effort but even in the aforementioned games that's not always the case. I won't disagree with the idea that Diddy needs adjustments, but I think there's a deeper underlying issue beyond that, and I think it's important to look into that issue and figure it out. Hopefully this adds some clarity to what I'm trying to say.

 

[Lavani]

Because there's money involved.

Let's say you (you being ANYPERSON, not you yourself) hypothetically just spent 100 dollars in entering a tournament, but if you win it you'll get 1000 dollars instead!

Would you use a sloppy character like Zelda that is hard to use, requires precision, incredible reads and has a ton of weaknesses, even if she's "viable," or Bowser, who's ridic strong but can become a piñata against certain characters, or Villager, who will really feel the pressure from the predominant faster characters?

Or you could use the objectively best character in the game. And learn him. And use his ton of advantages and basic lack of disadvantages.

I mean, I'm not being like "THAT'S THE OBVIOUS THING TO DO" cause I never really play top tiers (for whatever reason), it's just that it's the most pragmatic thing to do if you're actually making money off playing Smash. Of course there are players like Nairo and Nakat who use other characters and all that ****, but that's the reason top tiers are so predominant. Have you ever seen tourney matches for MvC3? Everyone uses the same party because of the same reason. Using, like, say, Zelda in a tourney where there's money involved is like not tuning your car before a big race. It might be because of preference, might be because of style, as the sisters put it, might be because she's your best character, but she's still a car that's not properly tuned. And you're racing against like ****ing Subaru ralley cars out there.


I'm not trying to be patronizing, it is just really the reason behind it.

Hypothetical: I attend a 32 man tournament. The entire bracket is Diddy players, nothing but Diddy, and I'm here to win.

Do I play , going 50:50 with everyone and having to win each match strictly on me outplaying my opponent? Or do I pick a character like who both has an advantageous matchup against Diddy and is going to be a character the tournament attendees are less familiar with fighting?

Because when I look at it from this mindset I feel like everyone should be learning the characters that beat Diddy instead of jumping to Diddy himself, then counterplay develops against those characters too, then against those characters, diversity achieved etc. Only if Diddy beat literally everyone would I say Diddy is the only correct choice, but as of current I feel like he's only as popular as he is because he's easier to play than characters like Sheik, Pikachu, etc. while being similarly rewarding.

 

[Fernosaur]

@ TTTTTsd Oh yeah no I agree with you, I mean I ****ing hate top tier characters who are top tier not because they require a ****load of skill but because they're just "MASH MASH MASH F*CK YEAH PROFIT." Of course that won't really get you anywhere in a tournament environment (except for Brawl MK haha), but you get the drill.

I agree that it's the community that is to blame, because really the game and the top characters are just, like, fuggin there. They don't CHOOSE things. They ARE things. But then again, it's not really bad or wrong that the people pick the obviously better characters, because that's normal human behaviour. You can't really blame them for trying to make their odds at winning better through legal tools. It might look ****ty to us because we use ****ty characters, but getting to the core of this if the game was a liiiiiiittle more evenly balanced we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now, nowamasayin'?

And honestly the metagame of other top tiers doesn't really get overlooked, it's just that their meta revolves around the tools they have against THE obvious top. Like back in Brawl Diddy became top only after it was demonstrated that banana spam was a real ****ing pain in the ass for MK (for everyone really, but MK was the focal point). And then the ICs only became top once it was proven that their grabs could deal with everyone, but like ALSO MK. And then Olimar climbed the ranks once it became clear that his massive damage output and massive defenses worked against everyone, BUT PRIMARILY MK, you know? That's what bugs me the most about centralized metas.

Hypothetical: I attend a 32 man tournament. The entire bracket is Diddy players, nothing but Diddy, and I'm here to win.

Do I play , going 50:50 with everyone and having to win each match strictly on me outplaying my opponent? Or do I pick a character like who both has an advantageous matchup against Diddy and is going to be a character the tournament attendees are less familiar with fighting?

Because when I look at it from this mindset I feel like everyone should be learning the characters that beat Diddy instead of jumping to Diddy himself, then counterplay develops against those characters too, then against those characters, diversity achieved etc. Only if Diddy beat literally everyone would I say Diddy is the only correct choice, but as of current I feel like he's only as popular as he is because he's easier to play than characters like Sheik, Pikachu, etc. while being similarly rewarding.

This is true too. It's like... I don't remember what SF it was in which Cammy was like the goddess of ****-fu and like the first top tier, but THEN some other character proved to be a pain for Cammy specifically, so instead he became the new top, and THEN someone else was a problem for this character AND SO ON. So yeah, I agree with that. The thing I don't agree with is that this is a process that takes a very long time to develop, whereas we could be having like a super massively diverse game meta from the start.

And what you said is like exactly what happened with Diddy back in Brawl. And then with the ICs and Olimar and what-not. So yeah, the meta will evolve and I agree that Diddy is nowhere near unwinnable. It just sucks to have an OBVIOUS best character.


Seriously you guys are having me write bibles where like a ****ing change in the game's numbers would make it less bad.

WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE

 

[TTTTTsd]

*SNIP HOLY COW*

Oh of course, it could always be more balanced! Anything can, and yeah it sucks to have an obvious best, but them's the draws sadly. At least as of right now. Until Sakurai descends from the heavens or until the most godlike counter-tech is found, it's unfortunate but it's there. I fully believe Diddy could undergo changes and make the meta healthier, I'm pretty sure that's universal =P. I just wish there was more initiative in developing other chars, that could change a lot! But sadly that's not the case outside of like, maybe Sheik.

Hypothetical: I attend a 32 man tournament. The entire bracket is Diddy players, nothing but Diddy, and I'm here to win.

I don't know WHY but I laughed at this, just cause I pictured it being said in the most serious way possible. lol.

Either way this entire discussion has me interested in how EVO pans out, after that we'll definitely be able to make accurate calls as to what's going on even more than we already can right now.

 

[Fernosaur]

Yeah, like, don't get me wrong, we're on the same side because, I mean come on I was a fuggin Zelda main in Brawl and I won a couple local tournaments with her. I'm also a masochist. And I also agree that one should LEARN how to even things out for oneself, but that's a merely personal perspective. I was more talking about the "hivemind" with my arguments up there.

I mean we can all agree on F*CK DIDDY KONG amirite?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh well positively **** DIDDY lol, I only use him to mess around with my friends (he's kind of easy to do that with).

Although this entire discussion has made me wonder, perhaps it's not the high end that needs knocking down, but the lower end that needs kicking up? I don't know, it's so confusing! Damn spider monkeys....

 

[warionumbah2]

New tings I learn today

Warios chomp doesn't hinder MK approaches since his DA beats it out. And DA to nado works on him.

Olimar is a complete joke against MK, his advantageous state overwhelmes a pikmanless olimar. Up throw murders his pikman. I can honestly say this mu is more than 55:45 in MK favor its disgusting how much I bumrushed that olimar.

Lucario can get DA into nado even with 80% rage.

Shulk can get DA into nado.

And mach tornado has a certain mash rhythm for player safety so ive been doing it all wrong, now I can mash less but still get 21%.

 

[SBphiloz4]

"u mad bro?" -

 

[Fernosaur]

^ F*CK YOU YOU STUPID FLEE EATING SH*TBAG. F*CK YOU.

@ TTTTTsd Yeah definitely. The lower end definitely needs kicking up, but it's hard for the community to be interested in the ****tier characters for the same reason that they're, well, ****ty. I mean, we've tried our BEST to advance Zelda's metagame, but honestly the only thing we've been able to come up with is "Elevator kills early as bleach with rage" and "Squall can kinda sorta interrupt combos but it's tough."

Like, there are other things we might find out later, specially with Phantom which is like the new thing going on for her, but there's honestly not even that much to advance. And what little there might be comes by very slowly because of polarized disinterest and misrepresentation .

I think a good example of "lows" kicking up is Pac-Man, though. Like, no one thought much of him at first but then Abadango showed up and F*CK does he move swift. That's the kinda thing I like to look at. Also I guess I could say I'm fortunate for having chosen Villager as my main shortly after I dropped Shulk the game came out, cause man Villager can be SO annoying for Diddy. Like I wouldn't say it's in his favor but I do think it's evenish, or at LEAST close to even.

So yeah I'm honestly not even complaining that much. I hate Sonic much more than the fleabag.

 

[Lavani]

"u mad bro?" -

A little.

 

[Cenizas]

Idk why Diddy is working everyone up, I mean like our MU is like 0:100 Din's Fire guys.

 

[SBphiloz4]

I've had the fortunate circumstance that I've yet to face a true competitive , so I actually know NOTHING of the MU. At all.
And I hate fighting , but the only real time I faced against a "legit" Sonic was some guy that used Side-B into autocombos all day every day.

Then I downloaded him and 3-stocked him like 3 times in a row, oops. :^)

At this rate I'm going to have more MU experience against than the top tiers, because luckily (or maybe not), nobody in my region really uses the "cancerous" characters.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Only top tier I have no MU experience with is
I've never played a good Peach

 

[Mocha]

@ FullMoon I bet there is more room for replays than friends on the friend roster. Idk the limit though, I usually delete my stuff after like a week.

 

[FullMoon]

@ FullMoon I bet there is more room for replays than friends on the friend roster. Idk the limit though, I usually delete my stuff after like a week.

I probably need to delete some of this stuff as well but since I'm working on a montage I'm trying to keep all replays around just in case I missed a good moment or two to include in it.

 

[Lavani]

So I guess Rain and Nietono made a tier list. Slush posted this translation in the competitive impressions thread if needed.

I wish there was reasoning on positions given with this list because there are a lot of eyebrow-raisers in it, but I always find it interesting to see the opinions of skilled players on this sort of thing.

Also Zelda is better than Ganon, Falco, Charizard, Samus, Robin, and Lucina guys :^)

 

[Locke 06]

Wow. Lots of diddy crap.

My main issue is how easy the character is to play at a high level. If you're a good player, the amount of time you need to put in with Diddy to win is significantly less than, say, Pikachu. Even if Pika is better, it's natural for a lot of people to go for the short term>long term stuff.

Diddy needs numbers nerfs in addition to the dumb combo breaker that is uair. But his damage output is ridiculous.

Edit: hyrule tier lives doe.

 

[Macchiato]

Honestly diddy is the new meta knight. More advancements in his meta game will happen. Sakurai really isn't gonna nerf him imo. I doubt that he even knows that diddy is broken. All he cares about are the free for alls and single player modes

 

[Lorde]

I like how R.O.B. is apparently better than Pikachu and Rosalina.

edit: No, Diddy will never be the "new MK." No character in Smash 4 is broken. #stop

 

[Lavani]

I like how R.O.B. is apparently better than Pikachu and Rosalina.

Japan doesn't think highly of Rosalina after the 1.0.4 nerf. Doesn't help that she loses to Diddy/Sheik/Sonic so I can see the reasoning. Rain mained Rosalina pre-1.0.4, for what it's worth (I think he's on to Diddy now).

I don't think there are any Pikas in japan. I don't think there are any ROBs either though, so I'm kind of intrigued by him being that high.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Honestly diddy is the new meta knight. More advancements in his meta game will happen. Sakurai really isn't gonna nerf him imo. I doubt that he even knows that diddy is broken. All he cares about are the free for alls and single player modes

His Final Smash is meh, so he must be low tier

 

[Nammy12]

lol "Brad Pit"

 

[BJN39]

So I guess Rain and Nietono made a tier list. Slush posted this translation in the competitive impressions thread if needed.

I wish there was reasoning on positions given with this list because there are a lot of eyebrow-raisers in it, but I always find it interesting to see the opinions of skilled players on this sort of thing.

Also Zelda is better than Ganon, Falco, Charizard, Samus, Robin, and Lucina guys :^)

Lmao WFT is labelled as "WTF"

 

[Macchiato]

So I guess Rain and Nietono made a tier list. Slush posted this translation in the competitive impressions thread if needed.

I wish there was reasoning on positions given with this list because there are a lot of eyebrow-raisers in it, but I always find it interesting to see the opinions of skilled players on this sort of thing.

Also Zelda is better than Ganon, Falco, Charizard, Samus, Robin, and Lucina guys :^)

Zelda is too low. Also I think doc is the upper half of C-. He's no mid tier but imo he's better than kirby ike and DK

 

[warionumbah2]

*MK on the same tier as bowser,ddd,mac,dhd and tink*

[ curiosity increased ]

He should be lower

Just give up Machitoto, main a good character not doctor bad and a bird with crap aerial mobility. :]

 

[Macchiato]

*MK on the same tier as bowser,ddd,mac,dhd and tink*

[ curiosity increased ]

He should be lower

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja lower than DDD, Bowser, Little Mac and Toon Link

The Japanese are still overblowing the nerfs aren't they?

 

[Deleted member]

Only top tier I have no MU experience with is
I've never played a good Peach

I could always give you some Peach practice if you'd like Wanna have some matches now?

 

[Nammy12]

Greninja lower than DDD, Bowser, Little Mac and Toon Link

The Japanese are still overblowing the nerfs aren't they?

They're probably predicting the nerfs he's gonna get in the next patch.

 

[SBphiloz4]

can't be that low. I don't think she's great, but 2nd worst? D:

That spot belongs to Zelda.
Japanese people had weird opinions. They think and are high tier in Brawl.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I could always give you some Peach practice if you'd like Wanna have some matches now?

Can't actually play now
Maybe later?

 

[Macchiato]

can't be that low. I don't think she's great, but 2nd worst? D:

That spot belongs to Meta Knight
Japanese people had weird opinions. They think and are high tier in Brawl.

@ warionumbah2

 

[Deleted member]

Can't actually play now
Maybe later?

Ah, alright then, amigo Just let me know when

 

[Ffamran]

And Falco remains bottom tier... We might as well remove him from tiers all together since it would save space.

 

[Macchiato]

And Falco remains bottom tier... We might as well remove him from tiers all together since it would save space.

I'm still maining him. Idk why but oh well

 

[SBphiloz4]

's still really underrated IMO. He's not going to be residing in the high tiers like he has for the past few games, but he does have some amazing tools up his sleeve that can help him fight the lower tiers.
It's just unfortunate that he has HORRID MUs against the top tiers, his MU against ,and maybe make Zelda's numbers look amazing, unfortunately. D:

 

[Macchiato]

's still really underrated IMO. He's not going to be residing in the high tiers like he has for the past few games, but he does have some amazing tools up his sleeve that can help him fight the lower tiers.
It's just unfortunate that he has HORRID MUs against the top tiers, his MU against ,and maybe make Zelda's numbers look amazing, unfortunately. D:

Zelda wins the Falco match up. He loses to zelda

 

[Rizen]

The nerf hammer hit Falco harder than even Zelda
Anyone want to wifi?

 

[Lavani]

Oh boy did QR codes get patched already lol

my 3DS wants to update

 

[warionumbah2]

's still really underrated IMO. He's not going to be residing in the high tiers like he has for the past few games, but he does have some amazing tools up his sleeve that can help him fight the lower tiers.