Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[warionumbah2]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2xqzrg/customs_rulesets_evo_and_smash_4s_future_why_we/

Also

I really hope Diddy gets nerfed when Mewtwo is released, otherwise GG smash 4 metagame in a year or two.

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) March 2, 2015

Diddy invalidates most of the cast but according to the Rosa MU thread she invalidates most of the cast too...(<_<)

Seen a SF hoodie saying

Nerf
Buff
Patch
Adapt

Can't believe that kirby headphone guy uploaded "Diddy tricks" as if he really ****ing needs it.

Not gonna lie that ticked me off when i woke up this morning. Good thing i got Samurai Champloo music on my phone to cool me down.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I have to wonder though....is it Diddy or is it us? It's a really deep question but I see a lot more people talking about how badly he needs to be nerfed and I feel like if the energy was spirit-balled into MU discussions and counterplay it might do more for it.

I really don't know anymore lol.

I can't help but feel like the playerbase needs a kick in the pants because we haven't even experimented with customs on a large scale and people are already doing Chicken Little about this entire thing. It's so bizarre, this game will live as long as its community supports it, but when this is so clearly the case, why is stuff like this being spread on such a wide level? So conflicted on how to feel.

 

[Ffamran]

well here it is a guess

Spoiler

like you don't have to watch this

Spoiler

you can back out at any time

Spoiler

last warning

Spoiler: The Pandora's Box

Ahem... WHAT?! I had a feeling it was from an opening or someone was really good at animating, but really? What the hell just happened? Is this how they justify him being in Arthurian setting? It's so weird, so stupid, and so funny! Oh, and alas! Poor chili dog #2.

 

[SBphiloz4]

I'll admit, having one or two dominant characters that invalidate a big group is relatively unhealthy for a metagame to develop. It's a psychological feeling for many players that you always have to face that thing and always keep your toes up. Worst part is when you lose because they get more reward for playing perhaps worse than you.

Take Meta Knight in Brawl.
Take Vergil in Marvel vs Capcom 3.
Take Aegislash in Pokemon.

It may be so that Diddy himself is broken, give some time and we can adapt. But it unfortunately comes at a cost for newer players being scared to improve, and this mental struggle is what prevents the metagame from developing very well. :/

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Diddy invalidates most of the cast but according to the Rosa MU thread she invalidates most of the cast too...(<_<)

The Rosalina MU thread also said that : is 80:20 her favor soooo. There's no way she can invalidate most of the cast if she can lose Luma so easily.

 

[FullMoon]

Can't believe that kirby headphone guy uploaded "Diddy tricks" as if he really ****ing needs it.

Not gonna lie that ticked me off when i woke up this morning. Good thing i got Samurai Champloo music on my phone to cool me down.

Honestly eventually people were going to abuse those tricks eventually anyway so it's better to get them out of the way now so we can adapt to his shenanigans faster. We shouldn't really stump a character's growth just because he's currently the best character in the game.

I don't like dealing with Diddy as much as most but a lot of the stuff in that video that was mentioned I didn't know and raising awareness of it makes so that you can be better prepared for that stuff instead of just being caught offguard by it and not knowing what to do.

 

[SBphiloz4]

The Rosalina MU thread also said that : is 80:20 her favor soooo. There's no way she can invalidate most of the cast if she can lose Luma so easily.

Those damn waifufegs over-optimists.

At least we showed them with our sass that Rosalina has a tough time beating the superior queen and waifu Zelderp. :^)

 

[Berserker.]

Diddy's meta is still growing really fast so keep your eyes peeled on your pitch forks. Now is not the right time for bans BUT Diddy definitely is at a due for a nerf

Those damn waifufegs over-optimists.

At least we showed them with our sass that Rosalina has a tough time beating the superior queen and waifu Zelderp. :^)

They're not that bad. I said Shulk vs Rosa is even. They took it well imo

Words

Then against, only 2 Rosalinas went there but whatever

Edit: Found some interesting uses for Diddy's back flip custom. Hehe.

 

[evmaxy54]

Diddy seems to be an American thing. Ain't nobody use him here in Ireland

*smirk*

 

[Fernosaur]

Honestly he doesn't need to be super nerfed. Imo if they reduced his ability to KO sorta like with Sheik it would be much much better. Sheik is still very powerful but her needing her opponent to climb the 150s to get a KO really makes it risky for her when you factor rage in, specially against the slower but powerful characters.

I think it was with Aero that I talked about Diddy only needing more base KB and much less KB growth in his u-air and he'd be much more manageable.

Monkey Flip is a pretty hardcore thing, though.

 

[Cenizas]

Guess who had an early dissmissal today?

 

[SBphiloz4]

I think it was with Aero that I talked about Diddy only needing more base KB and much less KB growth in his u-air and he'd be much more manageable.

This. He only needs a nerf to his Uair in terms of range and/or knockback. Then give him knockback properties on this Dthrow similar to Zelda's (ie nerfing it lol), and we have a legit character.

We can also nerf the Boozelina waifufags I mean wut

 

[BJN39]

Guess who had an early dissmissal today?

Aerodrome?

 

[Berserker.]

Can we not forget about his f-air? Because it's really stupid too. We can leave everything else alone except u-air, d-throw, and f-air

 

[BJN39]

This. He only needs a nerf to his Uair in terms of range and/or knockback. Then give him knockback properties on this Dthrow similar to Zelda's (ie nerfing it lol), and we have a legit character.

We can also nerf the Boozelina waifu**** I mean wut

I think Sakurai should also look into fixing the size of his late hit FAir, which legitimately gets BIGGER after the strong hit, which is why it has range as large as Marth's Fsmash. If that was fixed it would actually make his Dthrow > FAir slightly less useable at higher percent too.

 

[warionumbah2]

I agree Greninja needs another nerf, it can't be helped.

 

[evmaxy54]

Can we not forget about his f-air? Because it's really stupid too. We can leave everything else alone except u-air, d-throw, and f-air

Uthrow too

 

[BJN39]

I agree Greninja needs another nerf, it can't be helped.

Yeah smh he's too broke take 0.7% off his Utilt for good measure.

 

[Lavani]

Everything about uair is dumb and needs to go away

Fair needs less BS range, but tbh a lot of his attacks have ridic range/speed/power for his character type

I think the bigger problems with uair are that it's a frame 3 move that starts from below him and that it's a kill move with so little end lag that you don't even need to predict airdodges, you just spam it and beat them anyway.

I don't actually think any of his throws are really a problem

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nerfing KB Growth of Uair would make it build up damage and combo into itself more. My patented suggestion was to give it ANGULAR knockback as opposed to straight up vertical so that it still sort of combos at low %s, but at higher percents it knocks away AND it won't kill as early due to DI and other things. Alter the Knockback Growth a LITTLE to compensate for this and you have a legitimate Uair.

 

[BJN39]

I don't actually think any of his throws are really a problem

Agreed.

If you toned down his two offensive aerials in the right way you'd actually be nerfing Throw > Aerial combos too.

 

[Fernosaur]

Everyone has combos out of d-throw, so I don't know why his should be nerfed.

So basically increase BKB and reduce KBG in u-air
Decrease range of f-air (which I would think is a bit harder to program than the numbers but WHAT THE BLEACH DO I KNOW ABOUT PROGRAMMING RIGHT).
I'd say reduce the damage on all of his aerials by 1% or something and give it all to Zelda's nair but that might be going a bit too far.

Also reduce the KBG on Greninja's everything.

I think that works very well.


ALSO THIS IS COMPLETELY UNRELATED but have you guys ever thought that Wind Waker has like the saddest birthday ever? It's like Link's birthday at the beginning of the game and his sister gets kidnapped by a giant fuggin bird, he has to leave his dying grandma all by herself, then gets thrown headfirst into a freakin penis shaped prison in the middle of the sea and then gets thrown away like garbage into the darkness of the ocean.

Like, that's ****ing hardcore.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think if Fair just had less active frames and not a dumb autocancel window it'd be a lot less of a problem as well.

But the chances of Diddy ever getting nerfed are pretty slim LOL. Unless the Mewtwo patch does bring actual balance changes (that would be cool but I doubt it)

 

[FullMoon]

Interestingly, I was just watching ZeRo's videos and I'm surprised to hear that he thinks Greninja is one of the best characters in the game even despite the nerfs.

 

[Lavani]

I fully expect Diddy nerfs considering he shot to S on japan's tier lists pretty quick after 1.0.4 and a lot of the balance changes seemed to line up fairly well with SHI-G's tier list. That and it seems really silly to consider adding a character to the game and neglecting balance with it, though I suppose there's always the possibility that only Mewtwo's going to get tweaked.

What I don't expect are nerfs that will actually make a difference.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I fully expect Diddy nerfs considering he shot to S on japan's tier lists pretty quick after 1.0.4 and a lot of the balance changes seemed to line up fairly well with SHI-G's tier list. That and it seems really silly to consider adding a character to the game and neglecting balance with it, though I suppose there's always the possibility that only Mewtwo's going to get tweaked.

What I don't expect are nerfs that will actually make a difference.

You say that, but if it was a ton of small nerfs that look like they'd change nothing, chances are they do. It just happens that way believe me.

I'd take anything at this point although I REALLY don't think Diddy's going to kill the meta otherwise???

 

[SBphiloz4]

Is Diddy's Bthrow a kill throw?

Why does more than half the cast have a kill throw but Zelda does not?

I hate to be the guy to just cry nerf or buff because it's childish, but for the sake of a healthier metagame development, I hope Diddy is nerfed. Even by the very slightest, to at least give some affect, physically or mentally.

 

[Lavani]

Scrolling through the character boards, three boards have "chaingrab" threads as the most recently posted in threads. It's like I'm back in October again!

You say that, but if it was a ton of small nerfs that look like they'd change nothing, chances are they do. It just happens that way believe me.

I'd take anything at this point although I REALLY don't think Diddy's going to kill the meta otherwise???

Eh, I have a hard time believing that competitive play wasn't at least considered with the patch when there were things like Little Mac being nerfed despite Sakurai saying he's the character with the worst FG win rate. I guess we'll see though.

I know you kind of said it already but if people spent less time whining and more time learning how to deal with the character, there'd probably be less complaints. He is pretty legit dumb, but it's not like he's Melee Fox or Brawl MK.

Is Diddy's Bthrow a kill throw?

Not until really late, like 20% after when Zelda's bthrow kills. It's the closest thing he has to a kill throw though, especially when opponents DI expecting dthrow.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I know you kind of said it already but if people spent less time whining and more time learning how to deal with the character, there'd probably be less complaints. He is pretty legit dumb, but it's not like he's Melee Fox or Brawl MK. I think the main gripe people have with his character is that you just press buttons and get that much more reward than other characters do.

If that's the complaint then I'm going to have to tell those folks to tighten up. I have dealt with way more bull**** than Diddy in Super Turbo. I know I described Claw a while back (Vega, for those who call him that), but I'll go in detail as to why he's like this but worse.

Claw has
- Amazing buttons (even if he loses his claw he can still knock you down and pick it up)
- An anti air that is incredibly reliable (I don't know why they even gave him this LOL)
- A super that only costs meter when it hits
- The fastest movement in the game
- An ambiguous crossup mixup with Wall dive that is POTENTIALLY infinite, it's SOMETIMES blockable, sometimes not. It's like if Old Ryu's 50% of the time unblockable air tatsu was easy to do.
- A slide
- Good chip damage and specials.

I mean if people think Diddy is really bad they really haven't seen some of the things you can see. ST Claw isn't even one of the worst/most broken things I've HEARD of in a fighting game, but it's one I have indeed experienced.

 

[Soul.]

>Diddy fair needs less range
but Diddy in Smash 4 was designed with more range in mind. lol
But idc, I'm staying with Pika

 

[warionumbah2]

>Diddy fair needs less range
but Diddy in Smash 4 was designed with more range in mind. lol
But idc, I'm staying with Pika

Pikachu is stupidly underused, best pokemon in Smash no doubt.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh also I'd like to point out that Claw isn't even that dominant in ST anymore, he's pseudo softbanned (VERY rarely) but he doesn't dominate or take over every placing (IDK how much he even wins anymore) despite being like, one of the best in the game by far.

There's a simple reason why. Who cared about patching back then? Everyone just figured him out and developed the best counterplay they could with their characters, and put a lot of energy and thought into it. Claw might've won EVO but it wasn't a bunch of Claw mirrors. Just something worth noting and remembering.

I hate to be that guy but I don't see a lot of this in the community atm and I think that's what is severely holding back any sort of realistic counterplay. Investment and willingness to deal with the fact that, yes, there is a really strong character in the game, yes he gets more rewards a lot.

Even I was guilty of this earlier on but right now I've focused on developing myself and not letting myself lose to any Diddy player that isn't already better than me : )

NOTE: For anyone wondering what I meant by Old Ryu tatsu, ST lets you pick the Super versions of each character (i.e. the version of that char from the game before ST) and Old Ryu's air tatsu has a trick where the first hitbox of it has a 50% chance of being unblockable. It's incredibly ****ing weird but not super easy to set up, but man is it rewarding as a mixup if you're smart.

 

[Soul.]

Pikachu is stupidly underused, best pokemon in Smash no doubt.

Couldn't agree more. It has always been the best except in Melee (Jigglypuff lel) but still a good character.

 

[Lavani]

If that's the complaint then I'm going to have to tell those folks to tighten up. I have dealt with way more bull**** than Diddy in Super Turbo. I know I described Claw a while back (Vega, for those who call him that), but I'll go in detail as to why he's like this but worse.

Claw has
- Amazing buttons (even if he loses his claw he can still knock you down and pick it up)
- An anti air that is incredibly reliable (I don't know why they even gave him this LOL)
- A super that only costs meter when it hits
- The fastest movement in the game
- An ambiguous crossup mixup with Wall dive that is POTENTIALLY infinite, it's SOMETIMES blockable, sometimes not. It's like if Old Ryu's 50% of the time unblockable air tatsu was easy to do.
- A slide
- Good chip damage and specials.

I mean if people think Diddy is really bad they really haven't seen some of the things you can see. ST Claw isn't even one of the worst/most broken things I've HEARD of in a fighting game, but it's one I have indeed experienced.

Oh also I'd like to point out that Claw isn't even that dominant in ST anymore, he's pseudo softbanned (VERY rarely) but he doesn't dominate or take over every placing (IDK how much he even wins anymore) despite being like, one of the best in the game by far.

There's a simple reason why. Who cared about patching back then? Everyone just figured him out and developed the best counterplay they could with their characters, and put a lot of energy and thought into it. Claw might've won EVO but it wasn't a bunch of Claw mirrors. Just something worth noting and remembering.

I hate to be that guy but I don't see a lot of this in the community atm and I think that's what is severely holding back any sort of realistic counterplay. Investment and willingness to deal with the fact that, yes, there is a really strong character in the game, yes he gets more rewards a lot.

Even I was guilty of this earlier on but right now I've focused on developing myself and not letting myself lose to any Diddy player that isn't already better than me : )

Oh, I completely agree with all of this haha. I've seen a lot of dumb crap in fighting games (and horribly balanced games in general), Diddy isn't anywhere near the potential ****ceiling he could be at. People need to shut up and git gud instead of expecting Lord Sakurai to sympathize with them and fix all their problems.

Pretty good recentish example: Kokonoe being total BS in BBCP, yet EVO 2014 top 8 didn't have a single Kokonoe in it, not because nobody was playing the character there (there were a ton), but because they all got trashed by better players. Granted, she was nerfed just before EVO, but those nerfs didn't keep her from being dumb as hell.

Speaking of BBCP at EVO 2014, anyone that hasn't watched the grand finals should do so right now, that set was intense.

 

[Ffamran]

Can we not forget about his f-air? Because it's really stupid too. We can leave everything else alone except u-air, d-throw, and f-air

Diddy's Smashes, though.

 

[Fernosaur]

The fact that Diddy is dumb but less dumb than other much dumber characters in other fighting games doesn't make the fact that he's dumb right, though. My main concern is not that HE'S SO HARD TO BEEAAAATTT, but that the metagame will, once again, revolve around a single character, or a pair or wtv.

That's honestly just sad and does hurt the games a lot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

IDK I think the metagame revolving around a character is dependent on the community, it's not a matter of being dumb as an okay thing, it's a matter of how the community is going to approach it.

And disappointingly, their method is to just switch to him :/. I don't know what it is (I imagine players just want results) but that's what happens with Smash, but you don't see it a lot in games like ST as much, even with their obvious dominant characters like Dhalsim, Claw, Balrog....

The roster balance in Smash 4 promotes more diversity than ever before but how many people are utilizing it is the real question. (Low tiers not TOTALLY unviable but still not good ofc, the balance isn't PERFECt or anything but there's a lot of good characters that aren't Diddy that CAN compete and fight him.)

 

[warionumbah2]

Comparing smash to other fighting games and diddy to other top tiers is getting more annoying than diddy himself.

 

[Fernosaur]

IDK I think the metagame revolving around a character is dependent on the community, it's not a matter of being dumb as an okay thing, it's a matter of how the community is going to approach it.

And disappointingly, their method is to just switch to him :/. I don't know what it is (I imagine players just want results) but that's what happens with Smash, but you don't see it a lot in games like ST as much, even with their obvious dominant characters like Dhalsim, Claw, Balrog....

The roster balance in Smash 4 promotes more diversity than ever before but how many people are utilizing it is the real question. (Low tiers not TOTALLY unviable but still not good ofc, the balance isn't PERFECt or anything but there's a lot of good characters that aren't Diddy that CAN compete and fight him.)

Because there's money involved.

Let's say you (you being ANYPERSON, not you yourself) hypothetically just spent 100 dollars in entering a tournament, but if you win it you'll get 1000 dollars instead!

Would you use a sloppy character like Zelda that is hard to use, requires precision, incredible reads and has a ton of weaknesses, even if she's "viable," or Bowser, who's ridic strong but can become a piñata against certain characters, or Villager, who will really feel the pressure from the predominant faster characters?

Or you could use the objectively best character in the game. And learn him. And use his ton of advantages and basic lack of disadvantages.

I mean, I'm not being like "THAT'S THE OBVIOUS THING TO DO" cause I never really play top tiers (for whatever reason), it's just that it's the most pragmatic thing to do if you're actually making money off playing Smash. Of course there are players like Nairo and Nakat who use other characters and all that ****, but that's the reason top tiers are so predominant. Have you ever seen tourney matches for MvC3? Everyone uses the same party because of the same reason. Using, like, say, Zelda in a tourney where there's money involved is like not tuning your car before a big race. It might be because of preference, might be because of style, as the sisters put it, might be because she's your best character, but she's still a car that's not properly tuned. And you're racing against like ****ing Subaru ralley cars out there.


I'm not trying to be patronizing, it is just really the reason behind it.

 

[FullMoon]

Guys, is there a replay limit in the Wii U version? I swear I have over 200 now and I'm just waiting for it to say that I got to the limit.