Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[MDAVE]

I wish there would've been a Snake.. Oh, wait. Perhaps a Snake in Rosie's boot.

Will has been an inspiration to me ever since I've seen him play in Brawl. Absolutely insane skill when it comes to DK. Sad to see him lose to Rosie's little halo move.

 

[Ffamran]

Do you mean she can rest out of jab? If so, she can do that to a lot of characters. http://youtu.be/vRLCd1dYA-o?t=26s

Yes, but it's worse with Falco since everyone can interrupt or shield his Jab combo. Jab 2 to Rapid Jab doesn't even true combo... At least Ike, Zelda, and Ganondorf have range with their Jab, Captain Falcon's Jab is already legendary, Link's is disjointed, Meta Knight's, well, Meta Knight's, and Fox can Jab reset. What's Falco got? Oh, yeah, might as well just use only Jab 1 and Jab 2... It's so frustrating having people shield like right after the first hit of Rapid Jab, and then you have stuff like Little Mac or Rosalina's.

I wished Falco's Jab was either just two hits or could be Gentleman'd.

Well, there's another Falco rant of the day.

 

[Rickster]

Yes, but it's worse with Falco since everyone can interrupt or shield his Jab combo. Jab 2 to Rapid Jab doesn't even true combo... At least Ike, Zelda, and Ganondorf have range with their Jab, Captain Falcon's Jab is already legendary, Link's is disjointed, Meta Knight's, well, Meta Knight's, and Fox can Jab reset. What's Falco got? Oh, yeah, might as well just use only Jab 1 and Jab 2... It's so frustrating having people shield like right after the first hit of Rapid Jab, and then you have stuff like Little Mac or Rosalina's.

I wished Falco's Jab was either just two hits or could be Gentleman'd.

Well, there's another Falco rant of the day.

I must be doing something wrong because I always get hit by Falco's jab...

 

[Furret]

And my hate for Rosalina grows further after that uair KO.....

EDIT: I dedicate this page to hating Rosalina.

I'm ok with this

 

[UkeNicky]

OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU SO MUCH. THANK YOU FOR FINDING THIS.

I didn't find it.
I made it.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I love how in one of the 3DS updates the KO power on Rosalina's nair was nerfed but not her uair

Yes, but it's worse with Falco since everyone can interrupt or shield his Jab combo. Jab 2 to Rapid Jab doesn't even true combo... At least Ike, Zelda, and Ganondorf have range with their Jab, Captain Falcon's Jab is already legendary, Link's is disjointed, Meta Knight's, well, Meta Knight's, and Fox can Jab reset. What's Falco got? Oh, yeah, might as well just use only Jab 1 and Jab 2... It's so frustrating having people shield like right after the first hit of Rapid Jab, and then you have stuff like Little Mac or Rosalina's.

I wished Falco's Jab was either just two hits or could be Gentleman'd.

Well, there's another Falco rant of the day.

Ohh I see, Falco has it worse than I thought. I've played Samus in every Smash game, so I can understand your frustration about jabs not linking >_>

 

[Mocha]

There weren't any Greninja? I kinda wanted to see a Greninja pro abusing Shifting Shuriken for early kills.

I didn't see any on the stream, but NinjaLink said he used him a little bit on a couple of matches vs Diddy and Sheik. He said it wasn't that bad.

@ MDAVE I love your avie. Good memories of what we were talking about the other day

 

[UkeNicky]

I love how in one of the 3DS updates the KO power on Rosalina's nair was nerfed but not her uair

Simple fix: switch the KO power of Rosalina's Uair with Wario x3
Seriously they demoted the clap wtf

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't find it.
I made it.

I LOVE YOU EVEN MORE. *hugs*

 

[Ffamran]

Ohh I see, Falco has it worse than I thought. I've played Samus in every Smash game, so I can understand your frustration about jabs not linking >_>

It's worse because Falco's Jab looks like it's supposed to link, but it doesn't despite being fairly fast unlike Lucario's or Samus's. I don't know if this was confirmed, but someone mentioned a while back that Falco's Jab was nerfed so that you couldn't Jab cancel with it. If it's true, then ARE YOU SERIOUS?! I don't know about Melee, but Falco didn't use his Jab much like that in Brawl because "lulzlaser spam". Ike, I can understand, but then you have Fox who can literally Jab you to death. Sure, it's a legit strategy in boxing to throw one-twos until you're knocked out, but being able to Jab lock to death is stupid in a fighting game like this.

Then there's Falco Phantasm not having a hitbox at the last third or half of it. If I get Falco Phase, I might end up using it in favor of Phantasm despite losing damage and the ability to meteor in certain situations because of it's stupid inconsistency. There was not reason for it not to have a full hitbox. Even as a meteor, it's as reliable as landing a Raptor Boost dunk or a Falcon or Warlock Punch off stage.

 

[Lozjam]

Iwata: "Television ads are not very effective at moving consoles during this modern age"
Me: *Sees about 20 New 3DS commercials within the past 2 days*
Why didn't they do this with the Wii U?!
Nintendo lacks all capacity of common sense.... Sigh..... I am glad however, that they are selling New 3DS's to a point, plus these commercials advertise some of the best games of the year this far, Monster Hunter 4 and Majoras Mask 3D. I hope they do the same with Xenoblade.....

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

It's worse because Falco's Jab looks like it's supposed to link, but it doesn't despite being fairly fast unlike Lucario's or Samus's. I don't know if this was confirmed, but someone mentioned a while back that Falco's Jab was nerfed so that you couldn't Jab cancel with it. If it's true, then ARE YOU SERIOUS?! I don't know about Melee, but Falco didn't use his Jab much like that in Brawl because "lulzlaser spam". Ike, I can understand, but then you have Fox who can literally Jab you to death. Sure, it's a legit strategy in boxing to throw one-twos until you're knocked out, but being able to Jab lock to death is stupid in a fighting game like this.

Then there's Falco Phantasm not having a hitbox at the last third or half of it. If I get Falco Phase, I might end up using it in favor of Phantasm despite losing damage and the ability to meteor in certain situations because of it's stupid inconsistency. There was not reason for it not to have a full hitbox. Even as a meteor, it's as reliable as landing a Raptor Boost dunk or a Falcon or Warlock Punch off stage.

woah wtf I knew none of this about him

Falco seems to be as flawed as Zelda (and that's really hard to achieve)

 

[Lavani]

I guess I'm going to be that guy now

wonder trading five 0iv careful shiny xerneas, the best worst blatantly fraudulent thing anyone could ever get in wonder trade :^)

 

[Brinzy]

I guess I'm going to be that guy now

wonder trading five 0iv careful shiny xerneas, the best worst blatantly fraudulent thing anyone could ever get in wonder trade :^)

I mean

you could trade a Luvdisc.

 

[Soul.]

@ WolfieXVII ❂

I guess I'm going to be that guy now

wonder trading five 0iv careful shiny xerneas, the best worst blatantly fraudulent thing anyone could ever get in wonder trade :^)

Wow, poor Trainers. I would have given them 6IV HP Fire Modest Celebi.

 

[FullMoon]

I didn't see any on the stream, but NinjaLink said he used him a little bit on a couple of matches vs Diddy and Sheik. He said it wasn't that bad.

@ MDAVE I love your avie. Good memories of what we were talking about the other day

Shifting Shuriken and Exploding Attack really help Greninja capitalize on his strenghts, which are combos and edgeguarding. Though I suppose default shuriken might be better for some other MUs, Shifting Shuriken certainly makes Sonic unable to spam Spin Dash against us without being in risk of a combo at least.

I think overall Greninja is not going to change much in a customs environment. Maybe he'll fall a bit in the tier list because of the characters that do get a lot better with customs (Palutena, Ike, etc) but overall I think he might still hang around the top 20 because Shifting Shuriken is just such a good move to set-up kills.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I guess I'm going to be that guy now

wonder trading five 0iv careful shiny xerneas, the best worst blatantly fraudulent thing anyone could ever get in wonder trade :^)

You are literally the nicest meanest person ever :')

Btw does anyone know what would synergize well with Aurorus? It's typing is so bad so I'm just like lolwat

 

[Soul.]

You are literally the nicest meanest person ever :')

Btw does anyone know what would synergize well with Aurorus? It's typing is so bad so I'm just like lolwat

Rotom-W

 

[Lavani]

Wow, poor Trainers. I would have given them 6IV HP Fire Modest Celebi.

Fine, I'll give them Pokerus at least.

Also the OT is Sakurai :^)

 

[MDAVE]

@ MDAVE I love your avie. Good memories of what we were talking about the other day

Thanks, miss Mocha! It actually made me want to make this very moment my avatar.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

@ WolfieXVII ❂

Wow, poor Trainers. I would have given them 6IV HP Fire Modest Celebi.

I literally just asked about Kirby combos in that social
Awwwww yeeee, gonna study that video on work on those combos
definitely gotta use uptilt more

 

[Soul.]

Fine, I'll give them Pokerus at least.

Also the OT is Sakurai :^)

"pls understand"

I literally just asked about Kirby combos in that social
Awwwww yeeee, gonna study that video on work on those combos
definitely gotta use uptilt more

ye those combos r gud

 

[Lavani]

Wow nevermind the game doesn't let you wonder trade shiny Xerneas

Guess I have to unshiny them now...

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I feel like making a bunch of level 100 Butterfree, nicknaming them "Low fat" and wonder trading them :^)

 

[Soul.]

I feel like making VGC / Smogon/whatever Pokémon.
lol

 

[FullMoon]

Whoa suddenly a lot of good players are showing up in For Glory.

I just got my 100th loss in it to a Peach player that dominated me during the first stock and by the time I learned how to fight Peach I was just too far behind. I was hoping to reach 500 wins before reaching 100 losses but eh.

 

[Soul.]

FG needs customs but I'm afraid of seeing scrubs using Link to the next scrub level.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I honestly just want customs on FG so I can troll with Farore's Squall

 

[Ffamran]

woah wtf I knew none of this about him

Falco seems to be as flawed as Zelda (and that's really hard to achieve)

You should lurk the Falco boards. We'd have more activity.

Yeah, Falco's design in this game is janky to say the least. He's got a solid move set in terms of anything, but Blaster, Falco Phantasm, Up Smash, and I would even say Bair. With Blaster, look, seriously, Brawl's version was ludicrous. He could wall you out like it was Bleach-time because of its rate of fire and range. Just watch any Brawl matches will Falco and it's just a wall of lasers like this or this or this.

Brawl Falco's Blaster in a nutshell.

Melee Falco's Blaster was just fine; end lag, start-up and all. I think the start-up might even be slower. This would have been all right in SSB4, especially since the laser travels well in comparison to Brawl's superspeed laser or SSB4's slow, tired lasers. This is almost like taking away Ryu or Ken's Hadouken and expecting them to be fine. That's taking away their ability to zone, take a breather, and approach. Or hell, remove all the projectiles in King's move set from the King of Fighters; here's a combo video of King: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zInD7MqvBMk. A zoning character who was designed to zone losing their ability to zone. Yeah, fantastic design choice there, folks. This recent match had a lot of Blaster use, but it wasn't as crazy as in Brawl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7O8BN3_rpM. Also, Melee had wavedashing, so Falco's mobility wasn't an issue there.

I covered Falco Phantasm already and I mentioned a lot about how Up Smash's first hit is stupid since its knockback can launch people out of the Up Smash. At 999%, it can't kill, but it get really close. Bair ended up being Wolf's back kick-only Bair instead of Falco's original since Brawl Bair where he sticks out both legs sort of like Sheik. I don't know why that was changed since it sort of makes Falco a bit less unique now that he has someone else's Bair instead of his own since Fox gained a reverse whip kick for a Bair in Brawl and Wolf's Bair was his own which meant that Falco had a unique Bair that he kept from Melee. The lack of a front hitbox and his slow air speed sort of makes Bair a bit unsafe. It made sense for Wolf to have that Bair with his wacky air speed. Look up any match with Wolf and you'll see a muscled, Wolf gliding around through back kicks everywhere.

Everything else was fine with Falco, including Fire Bird which along with Fire Fox was crap since 64/Melee. Fire Wolf's a bit more useful because it charges up faster.

So, you have this issue where Falco, Marth, Lucina, and Kirby end up as being solid characters, but they have no major strengths and a lot of issues or weaknesses that hold them back. Marth's precision requirement is so high and so not worth it when you can play as - overused and beaten dead monkey is deader than dead - Diddy Kong and D-throw Uair/Bair everyone or pick anyone else like Ike, Captain Falcon, Lucario, etc., and do fine or get more rewards with a "regular" move, Lucina with tippers, essentially becomes hard-mode, "I'm a masochist" version of Marth, and Kirby has issues with approaching. There's also Triple D, Lucario, Samus, Charizard, Mii Swordfighter too that people complain about that are flawed characters.

Chaingrabs were universally removed, so whatever while his fast, but powerful meteor had to be changed. It became like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's in speed, but it could have been a fast, but weak meteor for all I care.

Another Falco rant of the day.

 

[SBphiloz4]

SPEAKING OF SENBONZAKURA

Found this gem here. :3

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So, you have this issue where Falco, Marth, Lucina, and Kirby end up as being solid characters, but they have no major strengths and a lot of issues or weaknesses that hold them back. Marth's precision requirement is so high and so not worth it when you can play as - overused and beaten dead monkey is deader than dead - Diddy Kong and D-throw Uair/Bair everyone or pick anyone else like Ike, Captain Falcon, Lucario, etc., and do fine or get more rewards with a "regular" move, Lucina with tippers, essentially becomes hard-mode, "I'm a masochist" version of Marth, and Kirby has issues with approaching. There's also Triple D, Lucario, Samus, Charizard, Mii Swordfighter too that people complain about that are flawed characters.

Chaingrabs were universally removed, so whatever while his fast, but powerful meteor had to be changed. It became like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's in speed, but it could have been a fast, but weak meteor for all I care.

Another Falco rant of the day.

This is honestly what I hate most about SSB4. All the characters have strengths and weaknesses, but the top tiers have so few weaknesses and the bottom tiers end up being outclassed even though they're completely viable. My favorite example is Zelda. She has great combos, amazing kill power, one of the best recoveries, and a good get off of me move. But she takes some skill to use, and then we have braindead Diddy who literally outclasses her in almost every single way except recovery. There's also Zelda herself in the top tier with a different outfit that also outclasses her in every way and is much easier to use. So it's just like, what's the point of playing the bottom tiers who are actually good if the top tiers are just so much better?
/rant

 

[Phenomiracle]

I honestly just want customs on FG so I can troll with Farore's Squall

Too bad Nintendo puts Equipment and Custom moves hand-in-hand.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Too bad Nintendo puts Equipment and Custom moves hand-in-hand.

Oh true, that's unfortunate.

 

[SBphiloz4]

THIS IS REALLY CUTE.

My favourite part of this pic is Ike and Marth pushing Link to confess to one of those fine ladies over in the other side.

Then Marth and Ike can be alone together.
And Link's heartwarming confession would consist of HYAAAAH

 

[Ffamran]

This is honestly what I hate most about SSB4. All the characters have strengths and weaknesses, but the top tiers have so few weaknesses and the bottom tiers end up being outclassed even though they're completely viable. My favorite example is Zelda. She has great combos, amazing kill power, one of the best recoveries, and a good get off of me move. But she takes some skill to use, and then we have braindead Diddy who literally outclasses her in almost every single way except recovery. There's also Zelda herself in the top tier with a different outfit that also outclasses her in every way and is much easier to use. So it's just like, what's the point of playing the bottom tiers who are actually good if the top tiers are just so much better?
/rant

Looking at Lucina to Marth, it's already noticeable. Lucina being a "beginner's character" is a lie. Removing tippers does not make her easier to use in any mode. She either functions somewhat like Marth or is worse despite being consistent. Then you have Dark Pit who's slightly weaker or something, but Electroshock Arm works better for certain matchups like Rosalina and getting rid of Luma. Really? What happened to the Melee-style clones? Oh, yeah, Dr. Mario and he's technically a semi-clone because he doesn't have Mario's FLUDD and Pills are physical. Fan-freaking-tastic.

Shofu and ZeRo are spot on when they said that Falco's good and viable, but there are other characters that are better or more viable. At the same time, there are easier characters to use like hmm... Captain Falcon, Diddy, Luigi, Fox, Yoshi, Ness, and Pit while Meta Knight, Shulk, Greninja, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Peach, and Rosalina requires so much work that it's not worth it in the long run. Sure, you might win tournaments 5 years later, but winning tournaments consistently during 5 years is a much better payoff. Using Falco, Marth, Lucina, and Kirby requires mastery of fundamentals, but Marth, Lucina, Sheik, ZSS, and Meta Knight requires precision to boot, Peach requires ludicrous skill using float, aerials as a grounded options, Shulk and Palutena requires an understanding and timing of the Monado Arts and Lightweight, and Rosalina requires you to be patient, understand how to manipulate Luma, and play defensively like Ganondorf or Zelda, but with much better rewards and even still, it takes a long time to master her. You could hit the lab with Luigi and figure out and get more out of him than Marth.

I'd argue that a good Sonic requires more work than Diddy or Luigi. Why? 'Cause camping can only get you so far, especially if you're up against Shulk or Ike who can swing a giant sword and slam you into the ground. A good Sonic needs to control his speed and fight on the fly alongside preparing backup plans. Captain Falcon does that too, but kills earlier while Fox is, I guess, more reliable and less unwieldy since he doesn't blaze through the ground. Diddy throws out whatever and wins because of his stupid damage output, knockback, and range while Luigi is fairly safe and strong at the same time in contrast to Sheik being safe, but weak to compensate for the fact she can combo well if you know what you're doing. The Villager and Mega Man requires good zoning and knowing how to deal with anti-zoners. Bowser and Ganondorf are so read-heavy it's not funny, especially Bowser who I don't know if he can combo well unlike Ganondorf who can juggle well thanks to being a Captain Falcon semi-clone.

This is more or less the same with DMC4. Mastering Dante meant you had to master 5 Styles, 3 Devil Arms (melee weapons), and at least Ebony & Ivory (ranged) if not Coyote-A and Pandora alongside Jump Canceling, and knowing when enemies attack and how they attack. Nero only had to master his Devilbringer (grab/grapple), Red Queen (melee) which requires him to master timing to get the most out of Exceed - it's essentially the Gunblade trigger mechanic in FFVIII -, and Blue Rose (ranged). Should I mention that the enemies were designed for Nero and you play as him for 13 missions? Yeah, it's a wake up call and frustrating to play as Dante out of the blue and for like, 7 missions while dealing with enemies clearly designed for a different style of gameplay to exploit. 7 missions you have to quickly learn a new character. Yeah, not worth it unless you really like DMC, like Dante, love to replay the game, etc. Sure, you could get by playing well, but it's still annoying to deal with having that much experience with one character and then having to deal with another who you never used against those enemies and only for 7 out of 20 missions.

 

[Lavani]

I do really have to wonder what Sakurai was thinking with making Dark Pit a clone character instead of a palette swap and two custom moves. There really isn't a good excuse for him to exist as his own character slot.

 

[Spirst]

While I appreciate the work Sakurai has done, he makes some pretty arbitrary decisions sometimes that don't make much sense. Such as Zelda's utilt receiving a 0.7% buff and Bowser Jr's dthrow receiving a 0.5% nerf. Dark Pit is the icing on the cake.

 

[Berserker.]

Shofu and ZeRo are spot on when they said that Falco's good and viable, but there are other characters that are better or more viable. At the same time, there are easier characters to use like hmm... Captain Falcon, Diddy, Luigi, Fox, Yoshi, Ness, and Pit while Meta Knight, Shulk, Greninja, Pac-Man, Mega Man, Peach, and Rosalina requires so much work that it's not worth it in the long run. Sure, you might win tournaments 5 years later, but winning tournaments consistently during 5 years is a much better payoff.

Ice Climbers became top 10 in Brawl 2 years later
Olimar became top 10 after several months

Now look where these 2 characters are now. Top 3 in the cast from being somewhere around mid tier. Sometimes, it's really worth it at the long run

 

[SBphiloz4]

IMO

Underrated characters as of now:
Overrated characters as of now: (and for people not named gorls )

 

[Rizen]

There's also a difference in how easy a character is to use vs how easily they can win. Like in Brawl, G&W was the easiest character of the 10 I used (Ganon, Zelda, Link, Bowser, Squirtle/Ivy/Char, G&W, Wolf, MK) but MK was- by far- the easiest to win with. Link was much harder to use than any other character but Zelda and Ganon were worse. Ganon was easy to use but very hard to win with.
At least SSB4 has closer tiers and better balance than Brawl. Even the bad characters are somewhat viable.

edit,

Ice Climbers became top 10 in Brawl 2 years later
Olimar became top 10 after several months

Largely because the stage list was changed to accommodate MK but removing CPs that hurt them.