Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[FullMoon]

This is the first time I've seen someone complain about Bayonetta's Up-Air outside of 0-death stuff.

 

[ぱみゅ]

https://embed.gyazo.com/f7e469008b7c5bf2b56403584c2f448c.mp4

Good stuff Sakurai, +1.

But for reals, I am not sure how will these changes translate in the long run.
She seems to be as unable to carry opponents as well before (DJ>Fair 1 shenanigans might have been weakened and ABDK's new angle seems to reduce its followup potential), but it is still possible.

What really strikes me and I love is how Sakurai basically told everyone "SDIx2=lrn2DI, u scrubs"

 

[Lavani]

ABDK's new angle is horrid

You get nothing if they DI away, and even if they DI badly at high percents you still probably can't do anything unless you can clip an outstretched leg with fair1

but then they just SDI out of witch twist and don't die off the top anymore since the vertical knockback got toned down too

I didn't really think anything of it at first but the new dtilt hitbox means she can't do things like landing fair1>dtilt>etc or landing uair>dtilt>etc anymore because the dtilt won't hit

 

[Virtue]

But where are the compensation buffs? It's actually really nasty to see all of these nerfs towards her, especially when the entire rest of the cast is left out.

At least people won't hate her anymore hopefully. Time to main Bayonetta!

 

[FullMoon]

I have a feeling they dropped the nerf hammer on Bayonetta this hard on Bayonetta to see what happens if there's a next patch they might give her some small buffs in case they ended up hurting her combo game (which is what she's supposed to be based on) too much.

Kinda similar to what they did to Greninja, I guess.

 

[LonkQ]

Speaking of that, how do you SDI in this game? I remember using the C-stick in Brawl for that stuff but they ruined Smash stick controls in 4 so I can't really do that anymore.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Speaking of that, how do you SDI in this game? I remember using the C-stick in Brawl for that stuff but they ruined Smash stick controls in 4 so I can't really do that anymore.

I gotchu:

 

[Baskerville]

God damn those changes.
THE SHADOW REMAINS CAST!

 

[Ffamran]

This is the first time I've seen someone complain about Bayonetta's Up-Air outside of 0-death stuff.

Don't you remember that it's me? I complain about everything. You could put a pixel in front of me and I would start complaining about it in some asinine way. For example:

"Why's this pixel a light shade of blue? It's not normal blue. It's too happy and not sad like normal blues. Freaking reminds me of failing the race against Riku in Kingdom Hearts... KAIRI'S SORA'S, DAMMIT! Back off, Riku! Damn jump is all weird in that game. It's like you can't fluidly move like in Jak & Daxter."

 

[Lord Renning]

I have a feeling they dropped the nerf hammer on Bayonetta this hard on Bayonetta to see what happens if there's a next patch they might give her some small buffs in case they ended up hurting her combo game (which is what she's supposed to be based on) too much.

Kinda similar to what they did to Greninja, I guess.

I feel like they did this with Sheik too. Hit her really hard, and then see if she needs any minor compensation later. I would kind of like Sheik's back air to be returned to pre-nerfs so she can ledge guard. I get kind of sad when I back air someone off the ledge, and they're at 145+, and they don't die. Or when they're at 175 and I back air from near the side of the stage, and they live until f-tilt kills at 190 or whatever.

 

[Berserker.]

So Marn is going to the Philippines at June 18

I'm just gonna get a picture with him (if I can)

 

[FullMoon]

Don't you remember that it's me? I complain about everything. You could put a pixel in front of me and I would start complaining about it in some asinine way. For example:

"Why's this pixel a light shade of blue? It's not normal blue. It's too happy and not sad like normal blues. Freaking reminds me of failing the race against Riku in Kingdom Hearts... KAIRI'S SORA'S! DAMMIT! Back off, Riku! Damn jump is all weird in that game. It's like you can't fluidly move like in Jak & Daxter."

Man when I saw one of your standard Falco rants on CCI I wasn't sure if I missed them or not.

Oddly nostalgic though.

I feel like they did this with Sheik too. Hit her really hard, and then see if she needs any minor compensation later. I would kind of like Sheik's back air to be returned to pre-nerfs so she can ledge guard. I get kind of sad when I back air someone off the ledge, and they're at 145+, and they don't die. Or when they're at 175 and I back air from near the side of the stage, and they live until f-tilt kills at 190 or whatever.

They did it with Diddy as well, if I remember right after the Hoo-Hah nerf he got a few compensation buffs like if I remember right they made Up-Smash link better and I think they increased the knockback on D-Smash or something.

 

[Lord Renning]

Man when I saw one of your standard Falco rants on CCI I wasn't sure if I missed them or not.

Oddly nostalgic though.



They did it with Diddy as well, if I remember right after the Hoo-Hah nerf he got a few compensation buffs like if I remember right they made Up-Smash link better and I think they increased the knockback on D-Smash or something.

That's cool.

That means we'll definitely get more patches.

 

[Ffamran]

So Marn is going to the Philippines at June 18

I'm just gonna get a picture with him (if I can)

Wait, is this the same Marn who plays R. Mika? If so, cool.

Man when I saw one of your standard Falco rants on CCI I wasn't sure if I missed them or not.

Oddly nostalgic though.

I got triggered because of Bayonetta's Dtilt nerf and Falco's Dtilt disjoint not being removed. I blame Brawl's changes to Falco that carried over to Smash 4 Falco. He could have kept Melee's Dtilt's power, but nope, wreck that move so it's pathetic in Brawl and Melee Blaster's average recovery on Blaster, but nooooo, they had to decrease its startup and leave its total frames alone. Lookie here, Falco could have had a high startup, low recovery projectile like Greninja or Wolf's and dropping rapid fire would have made it not annoying for players, but nope, it's low startup and insane recovery with the kind of reward that you'd figure a sour-spot Zelda Bair is more worthwhile. Visit the CCI thread I decided. It'll be fun I said. Forgot I that since I could post, I would end up ranting again. Should have stayed back, laid back, and not gone into the CCI thread...Yes, I needed an excuse to use this gif.

 

[Mocha]

Huh I'm craving some chicken right now for some reason...

Brazil has the best chicken legs/drumsticks @.@

 

[Berserker.]

Wait, is this the same Marn who plays R. Mika? If so, cool.

Yep. It's the Marn

 

[Lord Renning]

Huh I'm craving some chicken right now for some reason...

Brazil has the best chicken legs/drumsticks @.@

I just made some baked and breaded chicken.

That chicken looks better though.

 

[Lavani]

Huh I'm craving some chicken right now for some reason...

Brazil has the best chicken legs/drumsticks @.@

Now I'm craving chicken.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Sometimes I forget this is a site about Smash due to this thread.

 

[Lord Renning]

I wouldn't come to this thread every day if it reminded me the site was about Smash.

 

[Mocha]

Sometimes I forget this is a site about Smash due to this thread.

This is a social thread after all. Nice to meet you c:

Tbh, about 50% of the posts in this thread are Smash related, and 50% is everything else.
and sometimes, 10% sass

 

[EODM07]

Morning girls. How's everyone doing?

I saw the notes to Bayonetta. That REALLY hurt her, I think she may have plummeted down to either High Tier or Mid now.

On another note the Dragons short for Overwatch made me love Genji again

Can that game just release already so I can go back to failing miserably at playing this character?

I found this on YouTube by a Source Film Maker user which he predicted the Hanzo short.

Spoiler

Contains some mild language.

Also, I'm nearly done. Gonna do everything today and get all my Uni stuff done.

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I would come to this thread every day if it reminded me the site was about Smash.

I spend way too much time on this site. I have 150 posts currently after being here for a month and 8 days. That's scary. It's probably because this site is actually super fun imo. This thread isn't nessecarily bad, just odd.

 

[Buddhahobo]

I saw the notes to Bayonetta. That REALLY hurt her, I think she may have plummeted down to either High Tier or Mid now.

Apparently if people throw enough of a temper tantrum and spread enough misinformation they can accomplish anything, it seems.

I spend way too much time on this site. I have 150 posts currently after being here for a month and 8 days. That's scary. It's probably because this site is actually super fun imo. This thread isn't nessecarily bad, just odd.

Eh, it stays on topic more than some of the popular threads on Spacebattles. Author updates with a new chapter for the first time in months, and then 40ish pages of people complaining about proper 14th century beekeeping design.

 

[Lord Renning]

I spend way too much time on this site. I have 150 posts currently after being here for a month and 8 days. That's scary. It's probably because this site is actually super fun imo. This thread isn't nessecarily bad, just odd.

I meant to say, "wouldn't come to this thread every day."

 

[Berserker.]

I agree that complaining is bad (although I'll admit it's fun) and it's caused the community to be heavily reliant on nerfs rather than hardwork/labbing which encourages a lazy work ethic for getting better but coming from someone who wasn't really keen on the idea of banning Bayo, I did think that she had a lot of cheese, perhaps maybe too much. Counter-play against her could have been developed, or her meta may have grown and she would have become more of a problem. Take note (EDITED My B I'm not perfect) we never knew how her full potential would be like. Also, I don't think anyone should have the ability to seamlessly land 0-deaths on opponents when their risk:reward ratio is heavily imbalanced

One more thing but I like how people are so quick on calling that Bayo is ****ed. No one has labbed the new Bayo yet and checked if she's still functioning. I know the patch changes would suggest that the character's basically ****ed but who knows right? There's a chance that Bayo is actually still good (I think???)

 

[Lord Renning]

Bayo wasn't explored properly because you only needed to learn a tiny amount with her to win.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Take note that none of the top players bothered picking up Bayonetta so we never knew how her full potential would be like.

Komokiri, 9B, and Salem aren't top players?

Nairo and Dabuz aren't top players when they tried her out and got wrecked for it?

Counter-play against her could have been developed, or her meta may have grown and she would have become more of a problem.

Counter play against her was developed. She never dominated the metagame, and she never had the ability to land seemless 0-to-death combos more than any other characters. Mos of her combos only killed if the first hit got in at around 80%.

What Bayonetta did have was top players (now youtube and twitter personalities) throwing temper tantrums, commentators to thousands of people doing nothing during the match but bad mouthing the character, and people looking at the top, and using it as validation of how to act on the bottom.

The biggest thing to come out of this was yet another example about how the rampant hero worship in this game is the worst thing about it.

One more thing but I like how people are so quick on calling that Bayo is ****ed. No one has labbed the new Bayo yet and checked if she's still functioning. I know the patch changes would suggest that the character's basically ****ed but who knows right? There's a chance that Bayo is actually still good (I think???)

Very few people saying if she touched you, you're dead, bothered to lab or learn anything about the character before screaming from the roof tops for a ban and a nerf. Why would they stop now?

Bayo was never as good as people said she was. That's one of the reasons she was able to get away with the majority of the things she could, because everyone kept saying she was unpunishable.

Current consensus is not looking good.

Bayo wasn't explored properly because you only needed to learn a tiny amount with her to win.

You also needed to learn a tiny amount to negate it.

 

[Rose alumna]

She's been put in the Er and now is in critical condition. But let's hope she still has tricks up her sleeve.

 

[Lord Renning]

You also needed to learn a tiny amount to negate it.

True. The Smash communty is super lazy and ban happy.

My problem with Bayonetta wasn't that she was broken, it's that she was un-fun to fight on a casual or competitive level. I didn't enjoy playing against her whether I won or lost, and I didn't enjoy the way I had to play to win, and I didn't enjoy watching Bayonettas play, and that's why I wanted her changed.

By that same token, I didn't think ZSS or Metaknight were broken, and I accepted that they could kill me at 14% if they caught me and worked around it, but I'm happier that ZSS has to wait until 60 (which is still a very early kill on someone like Link,) and Metaknight has to have more of his character explored.

 

[Buddhahobo]

True. The Smash communty is super lazy and ban happy.

My problem with Bayonetta wasn't that she was broken, it's that she was un-fun to fight on a casual or competitive level. I didn't enjoy playing against her whether I won or lost, and I didn't enjoy the way I had to play to win, and I didn't enjoy watching Bayonettas play, and that's why I wanted her changed.

*shrugs*

All of which is personal opinion. I have the exact opposite opinion on the vast majority of those things, and it's equally valid.

I also have near identical opinions whenever I see a Villager, but I don't demand the game change to accommodate my feelings.

 

[Berserker.]

Komokiri, 9B, and Salem aren't top players?

FIYAH and Horobuz aren't top players when they tried her out and got wrecked for it?

You know that their results with Bayo were really good (referring to 9B, Komo and Salem) but even then, I don't think her "full-potential" was shown. Honestly before the upcoming patch, she was one of the characters with the highest potential and honestly, I feel kinda sick using the term potential so imma stop

My B about forgetting but that wasn't the main point anyway

Counter play against her was developed. She never dominated the metagame, and she never had the ability to land seemless 0-to-death combos more than any other characters. Mos of her combos only killed if the first hit got in at around 80%.

The thing is, her meta could have grown for all you know and maybe the Bayo mains could have figured out ways on how to deal with the counter play being developed (key word: could have)

That's where I'm getting at

Bayo was never as good as people said she was. That's one of the reasons she was able to get away with the majority of the things she could, because everyone kept saying she was unpunishable.

That's..... quite a bold claim you made there

Also, I want to emphasize that Bayo is hard to punish. Unpunishable is an exaggeration but in English, it just means that Bayo is hard to punish which is a big deal

Last thing, you threw out the bait called, "name search" :>


Immediate disclaimer: I'm not for gutting the character but she needed some nerfs to her moves that seem too good. I don't agree with how the balance team managed the nerfs

 

[Buddhahobo]

Honestly before the upcoming patch, she was one of the characters with the highest potential and honestly, I feel kinda sick using the term potential so imma stop

"With the highest potential", I'm pretty sure there's still a cave somewhere full of crazy eyed Shulk mains who'll fanatically disagree with you there.

It's a worthless phrase, tied to ones gut feeling than fact more often than not if never elaborated on.

Consider, for example, saying Sheik in Melee has higher potential. That in and of itself means nothing, but it does when followed up with "when we learn to optimize her tech chases". Or Wobbles's article on the stagnation Ice Climber meta for awhile back, with actual examples.

EDIT: The article in question, it's a good read.

http://www.compete-complete.com/2016/02/local-maxima.html

The thing is, her meta could have grown for all you know and maybe the Bayo mains could have figured out ways on how to deal with the counter play being developed (key word: could have)

You...just defined what potential was, after saying you were going to stop using it.

The opposite could just as easily be true, along with further advancement of anti-Bayo tech / character specific meta, etc. The metagame is organic in nature, dynamic through time.

This is not, nor has it ever been, a bad thing.

That's where I'm getting at

It's the same thought thought process that people calling for a ban were using, and it is equally ridiculous here.

Ban the character for what she may be capable of. "The facts do not support my position on the matter, but we should get rid of her now on the oft chance that one day they shall".

That's..... quite a bold claim you made there

Bold, yet accurate.

Very few people knew how to play against Bayonetta. Quite a few commentators did not know what they were talking about.

Both were either asserting or attempting to play against the perception of the character, not the character itself. And as a punish oriented character, that means Bayonetta players (much to their amusement) were consistently able to get away with things they never really should have been able to in the first place.

Last thing, you threw out the bait called, "name search" :>

I have no idea what that means.

Or why names on this site keep changing D:

I thought you were Berserker, for instance.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I agree that complaining is bad (although I'll admit it's fun) and it's caused the community to be heavily reliant on nerfs rather than hardwork/labbing which encourages a lazy work ethic for getting better but coming from someone who wasn't really keen on the idea of banning Bayo, I did think that she had a lot of cheese, perhaps maybe too much. Counter-play against her could have been developed, or her meta may have grown and she would have become more of a problem. Take note (EDITED My B I'm not perfect) we never knew how her full potential would be like. Also, I don't think anyone should have the ability to seamlessly land 0-deaths on opponents when their risk:reward ratio is heavily imbalanced

One more thing but I like how people are so quick on calling that Bayo is ****ed. No one has labbed the new Bayo yet and checked if she's still functioning. I know the patch changes would suggest that the character's basically ****ed but who knows right? There's a chance that Bayo is actually still good (I think???)

Wrong Thread.

 

[Lord Renning]

*shrugs*

All of which is personal opinion. I have the exact opposite opinion on the vast majority of those things, and it's equally valid.

I also have near identical opinions whenever I see a Villager, but I don't demand the game change to accommodate my feelings.

Well, yes, it is my personal opinion. My real reasons for wanting her changed aren't fully objective, but then again I never seriously cried for her to be nerfed. I just said I would like it if she were changed. I personally don't think zero-to deaths that are reliable enough to be counted on should exist in Smash formula, but that's also subjective.

I do think she could be have been broken if she were properly explored, as she's a sufficiently complex and technical character that was built to be infinitely variable and hard to master. That model has a lot more room to be broken. But that's potential, and I too would have liked for it to be confirmed. I've seen a lot of things in Smash called broken that weren't, and were later laughed at. Melee Link's down-throw to up B, which I've never understood how anyone thought was more than sub-optimal.

Villager is also a pain, but I don't feel he's broken and don't actually want him changed. I suppose if Villager could zero-to-death most of the cast off his set-ups, I would.

 

[Berserker.]

Gonna back out on the talk about potential. I feel like we're gonna go in circles if we keep this up

You cool with that?

Bold, yet accurate.

Very few people knew how to play against Bayonetta. Quite a few commentators did not know what they were talking about.

Both were either asserting or attempting to play against the perception of the character, not the character itself. And as a punish oriented character, that means Bayonetta players (much to their amusement) were consistently able to get away with things they never really should have been able to in the first place.

Yeah

No

She gets away with a lot of things because her moves don't have enough ending lag on her main tools at the neutral and her main options at the neutral are pretty damn safe. Just look at her frame data. Why do you think she's infamous for her low-risk, high reward playstyle? That's not even the only reason why people are scared of her. When you're playing against her, it's as if all your low-risk/low-reward moves become high-risk/low-reward

She's admittedly cheesy and she did deserve some nerfs to some of her tools but she's no where near ban-worthy

I have no idea what that means.

Or why names on this site keep changing D:

I thought you were Berserker, for instance.

yeah i'm not berserker lol

You typed in D.Vabuz's name. For all you know, he may type his name at the upper right search bar and see if anyone mentioned him

Wrong Thread.

If you don't wanna get burned alive by a mob, then this is the right thread for discussing these things

Well it's a social thread so you can talk about anything

 

[wedl!!]

from a purely numerical and theoretical perspective bayonetta is mid tier now

I'm hoping she's actually worth using still.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

from a purely numerical and theoretical perspective bayonetta is mid tier now

I'm hoping she's actually worth using still.

I think she's Low-High Tier. She can still do some stuff....

 

[Buddhahobo]

Gonna back out on the talk about potential. I feel like we're gonna go in circles if we keep this up

You cool with that?

If that's what you'd like. Though I suppose it's fair to at least mention that I'm taking this as you conceding on this front.

Yeah

No

That's

Not an argument.

Why do you think she's infamous for her low-risk, high reward playstyle?

A combination of group think and laziness, highly publicized inaccurate information of her prowess, and a not as good, yet still very good and probably Top 5, character who can optimize fear underneath it all (i.e., is a punish character).

I thought I was quite clear on that.

How many people thought "playing it safe" meant staying on the complete opposite side of the stage and rush in blindly when they thought they could get something done, thus hilariously telegraphing their moves to a character with a counter? How many people, even in GFs, continually air dodged into Bayonetta for a free nair or something of the sort and didn't expect to be punished for something so obvious? How many people actually bothered to learn how Bayonetta's one few approaching options in side b on the ground actually worked? Or, as I typically saw, a Captain Falcon player who kept uairing twice to sweet spot knee then gets upset when the Bayonetta player takes advantage of it and it stops working after the C.F. player does it successfully three times in a row?

She had cheese, yes, but so do other characters a bet not as much as they used to. Those other characters don't cause nearly the same tunnel vision in the opponent though. Hence, fighting against "the perception of the character", not the character.

yeah i'm not berserker lol

Wait...but you are the Corrin main with the sometimes Haruhi avatar that went Rosalini crazy and that I've been talking to and reading posts of for the past few months, right?

Else this thread has a whole lot more D. Va Corrin main moderators than I originally thought...

 

[Lord Renning]

Hmm. Bayonetta should still be able to:

Witch Time your recovery and spike you two different ways.
Edge-guard like a mo-fo.
After Burner Kick now sends you toward the side blast zone or off stage leading to the first two.
Combo you like mad for lots of percent.

Has transcendent bullets or whatever.
Witch time you while you're at high percents and charge a wicked weave smash to kill you any witch way.
Still has a frame 1 air dodge and should have kill combos at high percents. (up air and back air weren't touched.)

She should have to play the neutral and read you now that she can be punished or have her moves beaten. I'd say she still has all the tools of a high tier. But we have to find out.