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It is not just a good Pit stage, it is arguably Pits best neutral stage. Despite what you may think Arrows are just as effective here as they would be on other stages, the ledges only prevent things like Arrow Looping from being as effective. The ledges also set up well for Pit's Uairs and Nairs and also allow him to space Fairs without being punished.
Zelda's Nair doesn't have much knockback so unless Pits at higher percentages(most likely when you would have been better off landing a tilt or smash attack) it won't really be that troublesome. Nayru's I can see happening from time to time but all in all it is just a guessing game as a recovering Pit can as easily Fair you while returning to the stage if you expect an air dodge. Din's Fire is good and the best option of you have at gimping Pit, all i'm going to say is don't underestimate the manuveurability of WOI.
Zelda's Fair doesn't outrange Pit's Fair and if Pit is doing a WOP on you and you somehow managed to land a slower (unlikely to sweet spot) Fair on Pit all you will be doing is sending him back towards the stage where he can simply edgehog you for a KO. Keep in mind Pit doesn't even have to Fair you to WOP you as he can do it offstage with multiple Arrows.
This is pretty situational and as you said Pit has the option of simply staying on the stage and gimping you with Arrows whilst waiting for an opportunity that he can jump off the stage after you. Brawl is a game of options and Pit just has a too much at his disposal when Zelda is offstage.
Which aren't all that helpful as I explained above.
Just so you know, Pit's Ftilt and possibly his Fair have greater range than any of your moves. Zelda's Fsmash included. Her Fsmash outranges all of Pit's other moves but her Ftilt does not. Pits Fsmash, SH Fair and Dtilt will all get by it.
So do Pit's Arrows, Jab Combo, Dtilt, Fsmash, SH Nair, Utilt, Upsmash and Dsmash. Once again we have more options here.
IIrc Pit's Jab is a frame 4 move, I could be wrong but I doubt it. Either way it's fast enough OoS to cause problems on a powershield.
2 things about that:
I'll help you out here: Zelda's Ftilt has more range than her fsmash (with the exclusion of the very last hit of her fsmash) and both moves outrange anything pit has. BTW, the range of the moves is nearly identical. it's barely worth splitting hairs.
he has to drop his sheild first too. Zelda's lightning kick comes out immediately because she can jump cancel her sheild.
Zelda owns battlefield. it might be her best stage period much less the best of the neutrals for her. it's been mentioned all over the place, but she uses the platforms to her advantage in so many ways and they do nothing to hurt her. You'll be getting hit by her lightning kicks and uairs a hell of a lot more on this stage for one thing... and no way you can afford too much of that.
the last hit of nair has good knockback. it's low for a zelda attack, but it's good for an attack in general. plus it has mostly horizontal knockback. that's what puts pit in a bad position, especially if he has bad DI because he was tring to DI OUT of the attack rather than accepting the attack and DIing to survive it. Zelda also has good aerial mobility due to her good horizontal air speed and acceleration. and all it takes is a sourspotted aerial to gimp WOI. Don't underestimate the size of din's.
as I mentioned before, if her fsmash does, then so does her ftilt... and she has faster options if you are closer. Zelda plain and simple beats you on the ground. Better close range options and better reach for better short range engagements. you have camping on her and that's it ont he ground.
oh we're talking about a powersheild? well then Zelda has lots of options too... and they are all scarrier than anything pit can muster OoS.
FD doesn't offer any of the advantages I listed above, it's just a big neutral playing field. The only advantage Pit has here over BF is that its slightly harder to avoid his arrows, but nothing that can compensate for the advantages that he has on BF.
Fair is shorter than Ftilt, but i'm not sure by how much and Pit's Ftilt has slightly more range than Marths Fsmash.
What chart are you talking about?
If you are at the "tipper range of your Fsmash then yes, since its a faster move than Pit's Ftilt but if you're close than that Pit has more options than you do.
The same can be said for Pits.
Exactly the same can be mentioned about Pit. You don't have an advantage on BF. At worst it is a neutral stage in this matchup and in my opinion I believe Pit has the advantage here.
If the player DIs badly that is the players fault not Pits so it is irrelevant. Sure it may only take a sourspotted attack to knock Pit out of WOI but the chance of Zelda gimping Pit with an aerial is slim. Din is all you have here tbh.the last hit of nair has good knockback. it's low for a zelda attack, but it's good for an attack in general. plus it has mostly horizontal knockback. that's what puts pit in a bad position, especially if he has bad DI because he was tring to DI OUT of the attack rather than accepting the attack and DIing to survive it. Zelda also has good aerial mobility due to her good horizontal air speed and acceleration. and all it takes is a sourspotted aerial to gimp WOI. Don't underestimate the size of din's.
"As I mentioned before" Pits Ftilt will outrange your Fsmash as well as Ftilt. Fair i'm not entirely sure of but it is probable that it outranges you. Zelda has less options against Pit at close range than Pit does towards her. And if Pit can camp the hell out of Zelda as well as have a fairly good ground game up close then I fail to see how Zelda will win on the ground.
pit's advantages on BF are small compared to zelda's. and you've given absolutely no idea to believe otherwise.
but are they BETTER options? Zelda's Dsmash, Dtilt, usmash and nayru's are very fast, very effective at close range, and just all around good.
except that pit's usmash <<< Zelda's Usmash.
in the opinion of every zelda main, you're wrong. I can't remember the last time a pit beat me on BF or LM.
it's not irrelivent because if you don't DI at all the knockback is still bad. I'm just trying to prevent the have your cake and eat it too argument. Some people might argue that it's easy to avoid or DI out of nair. but if you commit yourself to that, you are going to be sent at a bad angle should you fail. even if you have good DI, it doesn't help you recover and it's nice free damage.
fair does not. you'd have to time it right to punish her... which is not the same thing as outranging... and who approaches zelda fromt he air? and pit's ftilt has range, but it doesn't have threatening knockback, and it's not too hard to avoid because it's slow for an attack that weak. and it's also highly punishable OoS. To say that Ftilt gives pit the advantage in long range melee attacks is completely ridiculous. it's exactly the same as the DDD mains claiming that DDD's ftilt > Zelda's entire ground game. that's ********. niether pit nor DDD have anything that's going to zone me where his ftilt is going to hit but none of my smashes. Accept it. Zelda beats pit on the ground once they are engaged. it is NOT his forte and it's an area in which zelda excells. you have nothing that counters this inherent advantage. nothing.
A better way to phrase it would be, "what exactly gives pit such a large advantage on Battlefield that counterbalances Zelda's impressive advantage there.
I can say the same for you. All you've told me is that you can use lightning kicks and Uairs better which in turn gives me even less reason to believe Zelda has an advantage over Pit here, your post that states
also leads me to believe that you have no idea how Pit can even use platforms to his advantage and it just sounds like if you are saying BF is good stage in this matchup because it is generally a good stage for Zelda against most of the cast. In the case of this matchup it simply is not.
Better is a very subjective term. I can say that because my Dtilt sets me up for a follow up better than any of your moves, or that my Jab Combo spaces me well enough to avoid any move you can throw out which allows me to go back to camping you, I can say my Dthrow, Utilt and Fthrow set me up better than any of your moves to follow up....etc. Zelda has few moves that she can use at close range in comparison to Pit. Better? that for each player to decide but if I have more options than you I generally consider myself to be in a better position.
Once again subjective. Zelda's Usmash is a kill move, Pit's is a "set up for a follow up" move. In terms of killing Zelda's is better but in terms of racking up damage Pit has this one.
I assume you are EVERY Zelda main? And maybe the last Pits you played have been garbage?
It is irrelevant because these are "character" matchups not "player + character" matchups so perfect DI is going to be assumed for the most part almost everytime. What kind of angle would perfectly DIing the Nair send you at anyway? I find it hard to believe that Zelda would be able to followup before allowing Pit to return to the stage.
Time it right? A fully extended fair should "outrange" your Fsmash i'm not talking about timing it right to avoid the Fmash to then hit with the Fair.
It is not live you're approaching from a full hop or jumping over Zelda. SH Fairs and Nairs are good enough to approach Zelda with.
Pit isn't just going to be randomly throwing out Ftilts as you're making it seem. It has medium knockback and Zelda isn't exactly heavy. It will kill you at higher percentages.
I never said it gave Pit the edge in long ranged melee attacks, I simply said it outranges your Fsmash so don't put words into my mouth. If Pit is at range of your long range melee attacks he will simply shield them and retreat with a fair or the like and proceed to start camping you.
I disagree, Zelda beats Pit at certain distanced ranges on the ground, but if Pit is in closer then he has a definite advantage. You also don't take into account that Pit's Arrows and Zelda's Dins Fire are also part of their ground games. And you can't deny that Pit beat the living crap out of a Zelda if they are at a projectile range. There is also the issue of Pit simply ledgecamping you which you never brought up. They're isn't much a Zelda can do to a ledgecamping Pit and i'm pretty sure that thats also included in ground game .
all pit has on zelda on the ground is his camping game. take away his arrows (which pillars do) and he actually gets outcamped by din's. Pit's approach game against zelda is severely limited and, what's more, the solid ceilings completely eliminate his ability to approach through the air. So zelda has a harder time killing him on mansion. Pit has a ridiculously hard time getting TO zelda on mansion and zelda can kill through the platforms with uair at low dmages still. Pit can't hide under a ceiling forever. if he insists on doing so, use din's to lure him out. regardless, vertical KOs do still happen. they don't become "almost useless" they just become harder to use. And Dsmash is still beautiful. if it doesn't kill with its respectable attack power, which it will at moderate damages, it'll flush pit out of the mansion. it doesn't take much from Zelda to KO him once he's out there, especially if you've held onto your kill moves. Zelda makes a good edgeguarder. not necessarily by following them off the edge, but by goal tending, so to speak.
Really, arrows aren't that threatening, get into an "arrows=you're punished" range, and you're good reguardless.
I'm not responding to this. there are multiple reasons zelda likes them. they've been brought up before. I could find them again, but you've not given ONE SINGLE reason to believe otherwise. your response to the argument is consistently a big NUH-UH with absolutely no proof or logical argument as backing. Why bring out cannons to destroy a mosquito. give me a reason to and I will.
zelda's Dtilt combos into munltiple different attacks, all of which are threatening, and also can semi-lock. her Dsmash and nayru's come out lightining fast (especially dsmash) and they will at the least parry with whatever you throw out. it doesn't so much matter that you have more close range options if Dsmash will win out everytime you get that close. Usmash OoS just destroys if you are close to her and is still very fast.
okay. now this is just absurd. I can understand loving your main. but you have to pick your battles wisely. Pit's usmash can be safely DId out of VERY early and is limited in knockback and damage. Zelda normally does not use Usmash for KOs. it does a LOT of damage and is meant to outprioritize high attacks. and it does that splendidly. there is very little threatening about pit's Usmash. it doesn't have as much priority as zelda's usmash, it doesn't have as much power, it doesn't sheild poke as well, it doesn't have as much knockback, and it's less reliable as far as being DId out of. also pit does not have zelda's priority in general. if zelda hyphen smashes a usmash pit has less to block it than zelda does to block pit doing the same thing. I never once claimed that Zelda's hyphen smash was an amazing thing but someone else mentioned it was a good option and, again, you jumped right to saying pits was better. it isn't for those reasons. Zelda is famous for her beastly Usmash. is Pit? no. why? because it's mediocre at best. Zelda's Usmash > Pit's Usmash. is Pit's useless? no. but it is not as good as zelda's. Admit defeat once in a while.
no. he's good. which is why he wins on other stages more frequently. on other stages I've started CPing sheik anyway for the ease of gimps. but if we're on battlefield or mansion I don't need to. I've given reasons why. now why do you refuse? or do you just not have them?
no. this is a falacy. matchup discussions assume what pros can do. not even the best of the best are perfect. if you have good DI afterwards, you have just as much of a chance of surviving as you did before, but zelda can still get back to the stage no problem and you now have more damage.
because of the fact that you are airborne, yes, you can get past it if you are high enough maybe. but I'm pretty sure you can't get straight through it. regardless, why risk it? Fsmash is more threatening than fair and if it does outrange with perfect spacing, you'll be lucky to get that spacing 50% of the time.
my point. jump over zelda. get punished. it's not a happy place to be.
if it's his only option to outrange zelda on the ground, then he'll be throwing it out sme often or getting hit a lot. maybe both.
you said pit has a better ground game. he doesn't. he has camping which isn't the same thing. other than that. no.
I've already posted the reasons earlier. if pit is in close, zelda wins. pit has the advantage while camping and while aerial dogfighting (then again, Zelda has a nice long airdodge to get through that)
in shorter..... no. for reasons given.
Pillars do not take away Pits ability to camp. LM only limits Pit somewhat but its still fairly easy to take advantage of Zelda here. Zelda can only outcamp Pit if she is outside of a Pillar where his arrows cannot reach. If she is anywhere inside the mansion then I don't see how she has an advantage. If she is on the same level as Pit then his arrows are faster and if she is on a higher level then when Zelda releases Dins Fire all he has to do is run up underneath her and attack with Uair. Zelda doesn't outcamp Pit here at all except for when she is in a fairly situational position.
As I've said before Pit's approach game isn't limited against Zelda, even in LM. And it isn't exactly that hard for Pit to KO Zelda in here as he can rack up damage far easier in this stage thanks to the limitations of the pillars and rooftops in the stage. Zelda isn't heavy either so he shouldn't really have a hard time KOing her with Fsmash or Dsmash.
Pit does not care about attacking from above against any character let alone Zelda.
Battlefield is also a very friendly stage for Pit to recover due to his ability to go under the stage as well as sweetspot the ledge easier with his glide and WOI. As for the platforms, just take a look at Pit's moveset Dair, Dtilt, Utilt, Dthrow are all moves that propel you upward and once Pit is under you he immediately excels in racking up damage Battle fields platforms will set you up nicely every time for some follow up, I could go into more detail but hey "Why bring out cannons to destroy a mosquito."
All I will say to this is that you seem to think Pits close range options are slow, which they are not. Bring the frame rates for Zelda's close range moves, then we can discuss that.
DIing out of Pits USmash is not as easy as you make it seem as its execution is quick and the DI you will have to input will change based on where and which part of the attack you are hit
Usmash does like what? 16% when fresh, thats not a LOT of damage. As I said before Pit's Usmash is not about KOing, it is about setting up for other moves, and as stated before DIing properly out of it in such a way that you can always avoid a possible follow up is near impossible.
Once again, stop putting words into my mouth. I never said Pits was "better" which is already as I preveiously mentioned a very subjective term. I said Pit's Usmash is more about comboing than it is for KOing, which Zelda's is generally used for. I don't know why you're bothering to tell me it isn't used much as a KO move when you can clearly see that with the knockback it provides it is. It's even listed in your Zelda guide as a great KO move.
Show me a matchup that I can agree with you that he is good. Personally I don't belive he is if he loses frequently on BF or LM. And in your post you say that he wins on other stages more frequently, why is that? Hmm maybe Pit has an advantage over Zelda?
How can a CHARACTER MATCHUP be so directly related to the people that play them. That would be a character+player matchup which it is not. You look at character movesets when discussing, not how well people can play them.
I'm not talking about being over your Fsmash, i'm talking about clashing or outranging it. As I said before i'm not entirely sure if it does but apparently neither are you so i'm just going to drop it.
Read what I just posted....you aren't jumping over her to begin with.
You aren't going to want to outrange Zelda all of the time, i'm just saying its possible. Pit is either going to want to be entirely out of your range or close enough to abuse his own.
If I am shooting my projectiles from off the ground it is part of my ground game, simple as that.
Reasons...debunked.
I completely agree with everything Hedgedawg is saying and if you looked through the discussion before you came in you would realize that so do the majority of us. Some of us thought the matchup should have been in Zelda's favor. They aren't speaking out now maybe because they don't want to get into a "no way!, yes way!" battle...
Dude, at the top of the metagame, spacing is everything.
5 frames is predictable? I must refine my definition of predictable then, because I thought the best reaction time was 7.
What's to stop Zelda sourspotting and sweetspotting dairs, fairs, bairs, nairs? One hit and he's paralysed (in terms of recovery) until he reaches the grounded.
Okay, aboutthe metagame comment, i understand this. Thats why i said THEORETICALLY. But people make mistakes, Pit is fast, and will get in on you.
Assuming people will make mistakes is issue one, it changes it from top levels of metagame to lower levels.
No, she doesn't. Bair is pretty long ranged and the sweetspot is at the edge of the kick's range.
pit can do nothing really to stop zelda from putting herself in that position. and inside the mansion unless both zelda and pit are right inside the pillars, you're probably too close to try to camp. it's YOU that only outcamps in certain situations. not us. on luigi's mansion. and uair is not a threatening platfrom poke. with the platform between you it's easy to DI out and it does pathertic damage. zelda will probably not be on that top layer anyway though.
pit has a hard time KOing zelda in general there's no way that's true and then it's true that he doesn't ahve a hard time KOing her on mansion. the stage limitations make it harder for you to approach zelda. seriously... tell me what you are going to do to approach her. what can you do? and pit's fsmash and Dsmash are not near as reliable for killing zelda as what zelda can do to pit. I've said why the stage helps zelda. you say "thanks to the stage limitations" but don't say how that actually helps pit. the stage limitations make it so pit can't camp near as well at all AND that his aerial game is far less effective. Zelda likes to be on the ground and her projectile is unnaffected by pillars. pit has very few KO options compared to zelda. the stage protects people from dying. if it saves both of us a few times, I'll still have plenty of KO options at my disposal. could you say the same, or would your KO moves be decayed?
you mean he has no problems with it, let alone against zelda? because you can bet your sweet booty that's a lie.
glide to try to sweetspot and we'll hit you. Din's, fsmash, usmash, hell even uair. we always have options to harm you out of your glide depending on your position. even if one doesn;t KO, extra damage is not something pit can afford. why are pit mains so obsessed with his little tricks? going undert he stage does not make the stage one of your best stages. it means you have a different option for recovery. whoop-de-do. Zelda is beating you, she knocks you off the stage, you recover to the other side of the stage..... Zelda is still beating you. oh man... the advantage pit just gained there!
Nayru's is invincible from frame 5 I think, dsmash come out on frame 4, usmash 6 and dtilt about the same as dsmash I think... maybe it's 5 frames. regardless. at close range those moves are all that matter. at alonger distance she outranges your everything except maybe ftilt, which IS slow and not too threatening.
it's never been difficult for me... and half the time I just smash the control stick randomly. regardless it's MUCH easier to escape than zelda's smashes which require concious and precise inpunts. hell.. half the time you escape pit's usmash without doing anything. the hits are separated by too many frames.
if you get hit with only the first hit of pit's Usmash, you are normally safe. even getting hit with the first two is not overly threatening. and it does less damage than zelda's usmash with far less knockback even if all 3 hits do connect. in no way is it more threatening no matter the application.
it's not for Koing. it DOES KO, but it's primarily used to punish OoS and to stuff aerial aproaches. and it does that well.
more frequently... as in... more frequently than he does on battlefield and luigi's mansion. there are some stages which are bad for zelda in which he DOES win more often. but stages like smashville and yoshi's island we break even... heck, even FD isn't bad.Show me a matchup that I can agree with you that he is good. Personally I don't belive he is if he loses frequently on BF or LM. And in your post you say that he wins on other stages more frequently, why is that? Hmm maybe Pit has an advantage over Zelda?
excuse me? assuming perfect DI every time isn't thinking about how well people play them? that's just wrong. you assume smart DI, but you don't assume supercomputers are controlling your foes.
k
no... he's just going to want to be out of your range or have you int he air.
i'm pretty sure that's not part of the common definition of "ground game" regardless, it's certainly not what I'm talkign about. argue symantics with me all you want it doesn't make pit any better at that aspect of the game
but with cold, hard and indisputible facts? not in my eyes.
and so they will.May the walls of text continue
Against Zelda's DSmash I don't think pit's recovery is good enough without the use of his up b.
Luigis Mansion can ONLY limit pits arrows if you are on a higher platform or outside of the pillars. If you are inside the pillars then Pit will outcamp you. As I said you can only "attempt" to camp Pit if you are outside the pillars, for what its worth this isn't reliable in comparison to Pits arrows and if Pit wanted he could simply prevent camping with Dins Fire with his Mirror Shield.
There is no way Pit has a hard time actually killing Zelda with a smash attack. Stop overrating her weight.
Zelda will be made to approach if she is anywhere inside mansion. The only way Pit will have to approach is if he is inside the mansion beyond the pillars. Once Pit has to approach outside of the mansion you are taking away your acclaimed "advantage/method" of limiting his approach.
Debunked in previous post.
Zelda has what? A Fsmash a Dsmash, Usmash and Utilt for killing, possibly Ftilt.
Yes I can say the same and honestly you aren't going to want to bring up decay on a stage that is easy to eliminate decay on
I mean he does not attack from above, what move is he going to do it with lol. This really leads me to belive you haven't been playing decent Pits if you think Pits generally attack from above. My sweet booty does not lie!
Um... have you ever heard of flying low and sweetspotting the ledge from underneath it....
Have words in mouth syndrome or something don't ya? I have never said that because he can fly under Battlefield it makes it one of his best stages. It is just a plus to the stage. And really at what point do I seem obsessed with his "tricks?"
As you said it is a recovery option and is good for spacing. That is all. Stop trying to overglorify something I did not in an attempt to belittle my posts.
I just explained it to you....
SH Dair exists....( preferably chocolate chip please). Why would I be aiming to hit Zelda when she is underneath me where I am in danger of being hit but her Usmash/Utilt...etc I don't know why you think I would have to be over you to Dair you let alone be above a platform. (I'm keeping my cookie)
What is the frame rate for Zelda's Dsmash anyway? Pit's Dtilt is a frame 6 move and his Dsmash is a frame 5 move which should suit your definition of fast enough since keep mentioning your "amazing" OoS frame 5 kick. Also "he has to put himself in Zelda's range?" wait a minue.....I thought you were approaching
You don't know much about Utilt do you? It is his fastest tilt and has fast activation and cool down as well as good priority. And once again you aren't just going to be throwing it out like a blind person, chances are you aren't going to be punished much for it. Am I honestly supposed to reply to this?
Lol...If you can prove to me that you can DI out of his Uairs and Nairs after one hit which will elevate you off the platform when they start hitting you I will give YOU 2 cookies....
If you say this you are either blind, have never played a good Pit, have never seen a video of a good Pit or anything of the like... Why do you even think stages like Norfair and BF are considered some of Pits best stages?
Lol... This is a matchup thread. you are SUPPOSED to be explaining exactly what Zelda mains can do in a matchup against Pit.
No...You have chosen not to accept anything I have told you because your mind is set in stone that Zelda has an advantage. I'm sure if you got non Pit/Zelda players to read each argument you would definitely be on the losing side here.
Nayru's is invincible from frame 5 I think, dsmash come out on frame 4, usmash 6 and dtilt about the same as dsmash I think... maybe it's 5 frames. Yea...get the frame rates, then we can talk.
Been through this already and i'm not repeating myself.
As I said in my post it depends on how you are hit with it. It's only really the last hit Pit wants/needs to hit with anyway.
Are you seriously telling me Usmash isn't used as a KO move.... Yes it can punish OoS well and stop aerial approaches but from the Zelda's i''ve played as well as the ones i've seen videos of it is also used as a KO move so don't go telling me its not.
Please read my posts correctly before saying things like this. I said you will assume perfect DI ALMOST everytime since we are looking at CHARACTER comparisons not CHARACTER + PLAYER comparisons
If you so choose to think it is not part of his "ground game" then feel free to that doesn't mean that it isn't. And saying that his Arrows don't make his ground game better is just silly.
Your turn babes
not anywhere I've seen. I guess I don't regularly check such things though. it really shouldn't be.
but they take too long to write up
