Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
not a really big problem... but a frustrating one that makes him hard to LK.... but punishable if baited
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Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED
- Thread starter RoyalBlood
- Start date
PinkPwnageFrenzy
Smash Journeyman
Not really offering any sage advice here, just would like to bring to your attention that it doesn't need to be full charged in order to shuffle. It also isn't a new tech. :]
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Oh... and I've been doing some searching around. You should all know that Zelda's two best stages are battlefield and Luigi's mansion right?
well after some searching I've found out luigi's mansion is considered a BAD stage for both DDD and Marth.
as such there's no reason one of Zelda's best stages and one of their worst should not be the one you counterpick.
so, Royal Blood, you should probably make it Luigi's mansion Vs. DDD and vs. Marth.
well after some searching I've found out luigi's mansion is considered a BAD stage for both DDD and Marth.
as such there's no reason one of Zelda's best stages and one of their worst should not be the one you counterpick.
so, Royal Blood, you should probably make it Luigi's mansion Vs. DDD and vs. Marth.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Why is Luigi's Mansion better than FD for Marth?
For Dedede, i see the usefullness, so i'll change it, but if you're not sure about the stage, tell me so i won't be changing it like 2 times D:
For Dedede, i see the usefullness, so i'll change it, but if you're not sure about the stage, tell me so i won't be changing it like 2 times D:
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I hear mansion screws up marth's ability to combo others and affeects his ability to be able to space with fair... iunno I just saw it listed as one of his worst stages... we could ask a marth main?
and I know it's way to early to put up the next matchup... but I notice we have a falco thread floating around on the front page so it might not be abad idea to do him next so that we'll have some free discussion to draw from there.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
well Zelda has no problem KOing on that stage and she literally owns the house. you can even get greedy with Dins from time to time lol.
Gimping Wolf is fairly easy.....one of the few matchups where Zelda actually has an advantage off the stage. Naryus is great to use against his sideb and if he ever has to use his upb, you should make sure that costs him his stock.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
wolf has an awful rcovery sir... just try throwing out aerials when you are hard pressed to recover.
Nowhere did I mention anything about Dins, in general the Spacies have a difficult time with recovery. Zelda can do a lot of things to hamper Wolf: stagespikes with Naryus, lightning kicks, spikes........a plethora of options
.Sure Wolfs aerials are better than Zeldas, but they're not better than upsmash so that really doesn't factor into too much. Zelda is a wall of priority, usual methods of approach by Wolf don't work in this matchup.
Villi
Smash Lord
Ok, Wolf is a pain in the butt to space against especially since the majority of his aerials and ground moves out prioritize your aerials. It's very difficult to approach him on the ground or from the air because of his quick attacks.
Since I don't have intimate experience with the matchup, I'll just post what I think could be problematic for Zelda.
The majority of his aerials can auto-cancel. Zelda can be hit by a retreating, lagless fair; bair to shine/blaster; full hopped dair. Heck, even his uair
You may or may not be able to punish these with a dash attack, up smash, or up air out of shield (respective). While these moves auto cancel when he hits the ground, he still has substantial aerial lag. So if you're gonna punish, it needs to be before he touches the ground.
Nair is not a good approach by any means. Only the first hit-box and I think some other random hit-box has actual knockback. Punish it by out prioritizing it or taking advantage of his short period of landing lag.
His up-air requires precise timing -- it has a short hit box and a long cool down (but he can shine before he touches the ground). I think that if he's chasing you in the air, you can out-speed it with a dair or punish it with a nair depending on where you are. More likely he'll try an upb or just wait for you on the ground with an upsmash.
His up and forward smashes are difficult to space against. His forward smash has surprising range. I can't imagine how many times I've been baited into getting hit by it after a backward roll-dodge. Unless you were planning to dash into a shield, he'll hit you with it if you chase him. When you're landing, he has the choice of either upsmashing you if you're above him or fsmashing you if you try to create some distance. It's difficult to find a place to land against Wolf.
His smashes tend to have quick, short hit-boxes and long cool down times. If you block his fsmash, you can punish it with a variety of moves depending on where he initiated it. If you are next to him and block his fsmash, you can easily turn around and fsmash or dtilt lock him. His upsmash is the same -- two hit boxes, the first one leading into the next but a long period of cool-down after the hit boxes have left him.
Landing safely against him requires that you remain unpredictable. Often it's possible to escape him and possibly sometimes even to punish. He likely doesn't want to chase you with an upair because you can just dair or air dodge him and land safely. You can escape onto the ground pretty effectively by combining your double jump and farore's wind to fake him out. Other times, you can bait him by falling into his fsmash range and stalling with naryu's love. You can also space farore's wind to disappear right before his upsmash hit-box comes out and reappear during his cooldown time. At the right angle, a nair might be able to bait him into an up smash which you can (maybe?) out-prioritize.
I find lightning kicking him difficult to aim because of his weird stance - it's easier to hit him while he's walking/running or just coming out of his shield though. Aggressively edge guarding him with kicks and up airs is probably the best way to get a low percentage kill on him. You'll likely often beat his downsmash with yours. If he rolls behind you, do a quick turn around before you downsmash to maintain your speed and priority.
Wolf likes his down throw, but you can tech it if you shield as soon as you see yourself touch the ground and then punish with a down smash.
Since he's a fast faller, I like to start stocks off by racking up damage with a dash attack/upsmash -> up smash -> nair. It puts him at % that is favorable to Zelda because now he can be dtilt locked, and all your moves have safe knock-back. At around 80% dair starts to have tripping effects and a fresh lightning kick will kill him. Dair is a semi-useful tool in this match because hitting him with it will either cause him to trip or stand straight up which make him tall enough for you to hit him with a rising double jumped bair. I'm not sure if Wolf has any responses to a dair cross-up that will hurt enough for it not to be an acceptable risk, though.
His blaster is not much faster than Pikachu's thunder shock -- it's easily powershielded. Don't let it force you into a sloppy aerial approach. He can definitely try to bait you into jumping into another blaster hit or worse his over b. If you're powershielding through blasters, be aware of getting in his fsmash range. Also keep in mind he has a pretty large cooldown window after a blaster shot, but not large enough to punish unless you've jumped over it or powershielded it within dash attack range. Also, don't let blaster shots distract you off stage -- you have better things to do, like recover properly, than worry about 5-10% from a couple of blaster hits.
Since I don't have intimate experience with the matchup, I'll just post what I think could be problematic for Zelda.
The majority of his aerials can auto-cancel. Zelda can be hit by a retreating, lagless fair; bair to shine/blaster; full hopped dair. Heck, even his uair
You may or may not be able to punish these with a dash attack, up smash, or up air out of shield (respective). While these moves auto cancel when he hits the ground, he still has substantial aerial lag. So if you're gonna punish, it needs to be before he touches the ground.
Nair is not a good approach by any means. Only the first hit-box and I think some other random hit-box has actual knockback. Punish it by out prioritizing it or taking advantage of his short period of landing lag.
His up-air requires precise timing -- it has a short hit box and a long cool down (but he can shine before he touches the ground). I think that if he's chasing you in the air, you can out-speed it with a dair or punish it with a nair depending on where you are. More likely he'll try an upb or just wait for you on the ground with an upsmash.
His up and forward smashes are difficult to space against. His forward smash has surprising range. I can't imagine how many times I've been baited into getting hit by it after a backward roll-dodge. Unless you were planning to dash into a shield, he'll hit you with it if you chase him. When you're landing, he has the choice of either upsmashing you if you're above him or fsmashing you if you try to create some distance. It's difficult to find a place to land against Wolf.
His smashes tend to have quick, short hit-boxes and long cool down times. If you block his fsmash, you can punish it with a variety of moves depending on where he initiated it. If you are next to him and block his fsmash, you can easily turn around and fsmash or dtilt lock him. His upsmash is the same -- two hit boxes, the first one leading into the next but a long period of cool-down after the hit boxes have left him.
Landing safely against him requires that you remain unpredictable. Often it's possible to escape him and possibly sometimes even to punish. He likely doesn't want to chase you with an upair because you can just dair or air dodge him and land safely. You can escape onto the ground pretty effectively by combining your double jump and farore's wind to fake him out. Other times, you can bait him by falling into his fsmash range and stalling with naryu's love. You can also space farore's wind to disappear right before his upsmash hit-box comes out and reappear during his cooldown time. At the right angle, a nair might be able to bait him into an up smash which you can (maybe?) out-prioritize.
I find lightning kicking him difficult to aim because of his weird stance - it's easier to hit him while he's walking/running or just coming out of his shield though. Aggressively edge guarding him with kicks and up airs is probably the best way to get a low percentage kill on him. You'll likely often beat his downsmash with yours. If he rolls behind you, do a quick turn around before you downsmash to maintain your speed and priority.
Wolf likes his down throw, but you can tech it if you shield as soon as you see yourself touch the ground and then punish with a down smash.
Since he's a fast faller, I like to start stocks off by racking up damage with a dash attack/upsmash -> up smash -> nair. It puts him at % that is favorable to Zelda because now he can be dtilt locked, and all your moves have safe knock-back. At around 80% dair starts to have tripping effects and a fresh lightning kick will kill him. Dair is a semi-useful tool in this match because hitting him with it will either cause him to trip or stand straight up which make him tall enough for you to hit him with a rising double jumped bair. I'm not sure if Wolf has any responses to a dair cross-up that will hurt enough for it not to be an acceptable risk, though.
His blaster is not much faster than Pikachu's thunder shock -- it's easily powershielded. Don't let it force you into a sloppy aerial approach. He can definitely try to bait you into jumping into another blaster hit or worse his over b. If you're powershielding through blasters, be aware of getting in his fsmash range. Also keep in mind he has a pretty large cooldown window after a blaster shot, but not large enough to punish unless you've jumped over it or powershielded it within dash attack range. Also, don't let blaster shots distract you off stage -- you have better things to do, like recover properly, than worry about 5-10% from a couple of blaster hits.
Villi
Smash Lord
Wolf's frame data from the Wolf boards
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
When we are done with wolf and other requests can I request Olimar?
Villi
Smash Lord
Din's is the biggest waste of an edge guarding opportunity I can imagine in a vs. Wolf match.
Wolf is a *****cat recovering off-stage. Performing an aerial just puts him in a position to be edge-hogged. Coming from above, he's vulnerable to up airs. Horizontally, he has no options but to go straight for the stage or ledge with a b-move. From below, he's pretty much screwed vs. someone who can properly hug the ledge.
It's Wolf's inability to defend himself off stage that makes his recovery poor.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Also Zelda's Fair auto-cancels into F-tilt, it's pretty good since they're specting a Fair in their shield, but it cancels and they drop their shield and get hit with F-tilt
This is true against some characters but Zelda is not one of them. Wolfs sideB spikes JFYI, so if you mess up the Edgeguard you're screwed
What I'm actually trying to say ios: Don't Edgeguard Wolf as Zelda, it's not only useless but unnecesary as well
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
That's ridiculous. He has an even more telegraphed recovery than Zelda does and doesn't even move that fast in the air without a B move. What's so fast about him off stage? Besides, Zelda shouldn't be using Din's on Wolf unless she can't reach him before he has a chance to make it back. Nayru's to stop any attack he uses to get back on stage, or a simple edgehog. I guess you could mix things up with Up B and Side B... but come on.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
The only time Zelda should be using Din's is when Wolf is recovering or as a surprise attack on the rare, rare occasion. Why does his aerial mobility matter if you're just reading him and aiming Din's when he's offstage?
Villi
Smash Lord
IIRC, Wolf's spike only occurs at the end of his over b. (I spent a little while trying to find that list of spikes where it shows kill percents or characters being hit in the water by a spike, if someone know where it is, could they help me out?) There's no reason for Zelda to jump head first into his over b though -- her foot in her dair will out-prioritize it at any point during the attack. It has a decently lasting hit box and is easy to time.
She can either aim for him coming from his blind spots or have her dair follow his predicted over b path. After that she can just jump back to the ledge and edge hog him or ledge hop a sweet spotted dair.
If she can hit him straight on, her nair will either out prioritize or trade with his over b. Depending on his percentage and how far he is off stage, the final hit can KO him. She can also just opt to come from under him and up air which will likely kill him.
Dair and a fast falled Naryu's love also have a good chance of out prioritizing Fire Wolf. All it takes is one hit to gimp him, while she'll be knocked back toward the stage after the hit still posessing her double jump.
Lord Yawgmoth
Smash Apprentice
Sometimes I try (and have succeeded) to edge guard wolf, but his side b, despite having a moment of startup lag, is really fast, and he should be using this to recover.
Correct me if I am wrong but:
If you are standing on the edge and you nayrus he can grab the ledge.
If you grab the ledge, he can go on the stage.
If you try and wait to see what he is doing, and then react, most likely you are getting spiked for trying to hug, even if he chooses to do his Wolf Flash onto the stage.
If he uses his Up-B, by all means, make it a stock loss.
Oh, and if you can ever predict where he is going to Side-B, almost anything in the air will out prioritize, : P you just have to do it first. (lightning kick is especially satisfying because it makes the same noise and it is priceless when they figure out they just died)
And Villi,
I agree with alot of what you say, but he gets within lazer and spams lazers. You perfect sheild each one, slightly walking forward each time. Now you are within range of his attacks, and he is out of range of yours. It's still a bad spot. The only good approach I have on him is getting close enough where he thinks he can lazer, jumping over it and attacking him, but this will only work about once or twice.
Oh, and is the Very Low % Up-smash to Up-smash actually a combo? They've never broken out (obviously they can if you use a third.)
Correct me if I am wrong but:
If you are standing on the edge and you nayrus he can grab the ledge.
If you grab the ledge, he can go on the stage.
If you try and wait to see what he is doing, and then react, most likely you are getting spiked for trying to hug, even if he chooses to do his Wolf Flash onto the stage.
If he uses his Up-B, by all means, make it a stock loss.
Oh, and if you can ever predict where he is going to Side-B, almost anything in the air will out prioritize, : P you just have to do it first. (lightning kick is especially satisfying because it makes the same noise and it is priceless when they figure out they just died)
And Villi,
I agree with alot of what you say, but he gets within lazer and spams lazers. You perfect sheild each one, slightly walking forward each time. Now you are within range of his attacks, and he is out of range of yours. It's still a bad spot. The only good approach I have on him is getting close enough where he thinks he can lazer, jumping over it and attacking him, but this will only work about once or twice.
Oh, and is the Very Low % Up-smash to Up-smash actually a combo? They've never broken out (obviously they can if you use a third.)
Villi
Smash Lord
Yeah, I know it puts you in range of his attacks. I'm not saying you have to approach as you powershield all the time, but when you do... as soon as you know you're in f-smash range, you can bait his fsmash to hit your shield and then punish the lag.
I dunno if it's an inescapable combo... I do it a lot to Falco. I feel like he just can't help himself trying to retaliate with a dair after being knocked up so near to my head. When that doesn't work, he'll try air dodging but he still gets hit with the end of the attack as he lands. If you manage to trap him AFTER he's used his double jump, you can just go to town predicting his DI. He doesn't have much time before he's close enough to be hit again unless he over/up b's away.
I think Wolf is the third fastest faller in the game and he's the heaviest of those three, but I'll have to check if he can double jump out of it.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
press down B, Sheik is like 75:25 on wolf imo
jk (or am i)
jk (or am i)
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
His recoveries are very much telegraphed, so it makes it really easy to sweetspot fairs and bairs imo. Just wait for him to do a side B, because if he's recovering, he's gonna have to at some point, and when he does, prepare a hot square meal of foot-in-face.
Here's an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5bjBtwjLM
Here's an example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5bjBtwjLM
SwastikaPyle
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 811
Wolf's recovery may be more telegraphed then Zelda's but it is much more dangerous.
I absolutely hate fighting against a good Wolf.
-His SH'd bairs typically shut down most of her moves
-his blaster is faster then Din's Fire and even if you reflect it probably won't make it all the way back
-NEVER ROLL when next to him. This is asking to be f-smashed
-his d-smash absolutely annhilates Zelda. Avoid this no matter what.
-he forces Zelda to approach (and she sucks at that)
-your f-smash will typically outprioritize wolf's fsmash. Remember that.
-sliding u-smash will be your best friend most of the time in this match
-if he still has his second jump off the stage, use din's. Wolf's recovery is bad, but he's not helpless. Unless he's already used his second jump, he WILL make it back. The din's will, at the very least, force him to airdodge, which could put him in a better edgehogging area.
This sort of thing ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5bjBtwjLM ) is extremely situational and will probably never happen to a good wolf.
I absolutely hate fighting against a good Wolf.
-His SH'd bairs typically shut down most of her moves
-his blaster is faster then Din's Fire and even if you reflect it probably won't make it all the way back
-NEVER ROLL when next to him. This is asking to be f-smashed
-his d-smash absolutely annhilates Zelda. Avoid this no matter what.
-he forces Zelda to approach (and she sucks at that)
-your f-smash will typically outprioritize wolf's fsmash. Remember that.
-sliding u-smash will be your best friend most of the time in this match
-if he still has his second jump off the stage, use din's. Wolf's recovery is bad, but he's not helpless. Unless he's already used his second jump, he WILL make it back. The din's will, at the very least, force him to airdodge, which could put him in a better edgehogging area.
This sort of thing ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5bjBtwjLM ) is extremely situational and will probably never happen to a good wolf.
Lord Yawgmoth
Smash Apprentice
Indeed,
sheik is alot better against wolf than zelda,
i dont think anyone will deny this.
As for the video clip, alot of times when he does a Up-B in your general direction you should get a lightning kick. (but it still makes me smile a little)
It is nowhere near a subtle move.
Catching his side-b with one is far harder, (unless you can predict it / draw one out)
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Oh noez D: Stuck =/ I've only played some Wolfs and all i can say it's that i'm inclined to say it's even.
Zelda can edgeguard well here, but Wolf can juggle Zelda because his aerials chain nicely D':
Zelda can trade Din's for a laser and Nayru's Love stops his F-smash, the Wolf's start-up walks in Nayru's invincibility and then sas!
Note Aside : Din's Fire interrupts G&W Bair =D i don't know the details well but it sometimes stops it mid execution or at the end pf it at the final hitbox i think, maybe because it's multi-hit, Din's can penetrate between them, we may need to check the frames of the Bair D:
Zelda can edgeguard well here, but Wolf can juggle Zelda because his aerials chain nicely D':
Zelda can trade Din's for a laser and Nayru's Love stops his F-smash, the Wolf's start-up walks in Nayru's invincibility and then sas!
Note Aside : Din's Fire interrupts G&W Bair =D i don't know the details well but it sometimes stops it mid execution or at the end pf it at the final hitbox i think, maybe because it's multi-hit, Din's can penetrate between them, we may need to check the frames of the Bair D:
Villi
Smash Lord
Hm, maybe you hit G&W from behind? If it doesn't touch the turtle/hitbox, it can't be out-prioritized.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
No, he was coming at me frontally D: i was in front of him =/
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
if din's is at full power and bair is decayed it might be able to go through?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Let me show you my real power....
lulz u can kinda just block all of wolf's stuff and punish with dsmash cuz his grab game is pretty weak
watch the bairs and u got this
Let me show you my real power *down b*
lulz u can kinda just block all of wolf's stuff and punish with dsmash cuz his grab game is pretty weak
watch the bairs and u got this
Let me show you my real power *down b*
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
.... meh... depends on the stage... sometimes I just have an easier time using zelda.
if you play on lylat, zelda has a noticable advantage... and on a wolf friendly stage, wolf has a small advantage... as such... I can't say the matchup should be better or worse than 55:45 either way.
that having been said... there are more stages and I think all neutrals, Zelda seems to have an easier time. as such... I'd tip it ever so slightly in her advantage.
Sheik is often the better bet, but Zelda is perfectly viable as well if that's who you are more comfortable with.
if you play on lylat, zelda has a noticable advantage... and on a wolf friendly stage, wolf has a small advantage... as such... I can't say the matchup should be better or worse than 55:45 either way.
that having been said... there are more stages and I think all neutrals, Zelda seems to have an easier time. as such... I'd tip it ever so slightly in her advantage.
Sheik is often the better bet, but Zelda is perfectly viable as well if that's who you are more comfortable with.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Where does it says a decayed attack loses hitbox and/or priority D: Links please
And that din's was a mid-power one i think, but definitely not a full power one ;D
And Wolf...hmm...any approx. number yet? D:
lol
we're doing Zelda at the moment on the Wolf boards.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5531024#post5531024
we're doing Zelda at the moment on the Wolf boards.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5531024#post5531024
Villi
Smash Lord
I think the 10% rule applies to projectile vs other attacks. Samus vs Peach is a good example of this. Samus' full charge shot does 25%. Peach's frying pan does 18-19%, golf club 15%, and racket 12-13%. If the charge shot collides with a frying pan, it is canceled out; 25 - 18 = 7. If the charge shot collides with a golf club, the golf club will hit the shot, but it will still hit Peach; 25 - 15 = 10. If the charge shot hits the racket, the same thing happens as with the golf club; 25 - 12 = 13.
The strength of Din's will play a factor in Din's priority. Any grounded attack that causes within 10% damage of it will cancel with the projectile. Any grounded attack that does > 10% than Din's will out-prioritize it. An aerial that does within 10% of Din's will out-prioritize it and complete. Damage decay doesn't play a factor in priority though. I decayed Mario's nair so that it only did 5% damage and hit him with a full power Din's (16%) and he still out prioritized it.
If Game and Watch is within range to hit you with his bair, you will never out prioritize it. You might be able to move Din's passed the turtle so that the explosion only touches Game and Watch; or hit him when the hit-box isn't active, like when he lands and the turtle is still out but not attacking.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
D: But it hit him in the center of his body D: and that's why it was interrupted =D
Anyway, moar wolf pl0x :3
Anyway, moar wolf pl0x :3
TheWildcard
Smash Champion
wolf vs zelda from a wolf who knows how to fight the matchup.
Zelda can outrange wolf but all wolf needs to do is lead in with blaster space bairs and bait a smash then its a free bair to fsmash grab or w/e they want to do. i only die to zeldas usmash dsmash and fsmash due to it ONLY shield poking me or me rolling into it. this is hard for zelda imo seeing that all i have to do is jab bair punish with fsmash and kill with dsmash. as zelda all you can do is smash wolf or so it seems to me.
if were talking only zelda id prolly say wolf has the advantage...unless it was on like lylat or luigis mansion.
Zelda can outrange wolf but all wolf needs to do is lead in with blaster space bairs and bait a smash then its a free bair to fsmash grab or w/e they want to do. i only die to zeldas usmash dsmash and fsmash due to it ONLY shield poking me or me rolling into it. this is hard for zelda imo seeing that all i have to do is jab bair punish with fsmash and kill with dsmash. as zelda all you can do is smash wolf or so it seems to me.
that was with good wolf stages and shiek being added in.
if were talking only zelda id prolly say wolf has the advantage...unless it was on like lylat or luigis mansion.