Zelda Boards more elitist than the marth boards with 1/30 of the results go figure.

[AzNfinesse]

You are right. A laser will almost always follow, but if you shield the gyro, he gets it back as a projectile. By controling the gyro, ROB is forced to use the weak, telegraphed laser.

It's a situational call, but I played a ROB who simply threw gyro after gyro as I shielded them. He just kept backing up and hitting me over and over. Eventually, I got hit something because my shield was nothing and the whole process started over again. Once I took his gyro from him, he no longer could just camp me with his projectiles. This player now plays MK and camps him too. Unfortunately for him, his string of last place finishes has gotten to hilariously high levels.

Yes, last place with MK. At that point, you should quit smash.

a bit harsh but a sad truth.

projectiles r a pain. what do u guys think stage-wise would be best when CPing against a campy projectile user? I know typical stages like BF where he can't camp as well and zelda's god-like platform skills are there, but what else?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Someone should copy over the list of projectiles dtilt cancels out. Because I'm..... too lazy. ;;

Mr. Game & Watch

Neutral special (sausage)

Ice Climbers

Neutral special (doesn't clash)

King Dedede

Forward special (stops waddle dees and doos, doesn't clash)

Link

Neutral special
Crouches under unangled Forward special

Lucario

Neutral special (uncharged)

Lucas

Forward special
Up special (thunderball)

Luigi

Neutral special

Mario

Neutral special

Ness

Up special (thunderball)

Pikachu

Neutral special (thunderjolt)

Pit

Neutral special (works on unangled)

Pokémon Trainer - Ivysaur

Forward special

Pokémon Trainer - Charizard

Forward special (small rocks)


Samus

Forward special (normal missile)

Snake

Usmash (rocket)

Toon Link

Neutral special
Forward special

Zelda

Forward special (always)

Zero Suit Samus

Armor suit pieces when thrown

Does clanking cancel out the animation as well? I can't seem to remember.

Yes.

I'm trying to see the benefits over shielding.

It doesn't deplete your shield.

 

[Bandit]

a bit harsh but a sad truth.

projectiles r a pain. what do u guys think stage-wise would be best when CPing against a campy projectile user? I know typical stages like BF where he can't camp as well and zelda's god-like platform skills are there, but what else?

Any of the lava stages. Brinstar is the only legal stage left in my area, but it is small and like battlefield only with lava. The lava forces them to be mobile.

I used to CP Norfair with Zelda. She could camp hard under the platforms and hit from across the stage while the other characters were forced to deal with trying to angle their linear projectiles. Silly inferior spammers

Frigate Orpheon works until it flips.

 

[KayLo!]

I hate Norfair with Zelda. Too easy for a lot of characters to plank her. Not really a fan of Frigate either. ;;

For projectile spammers, I usually go BF and call it a day. Castle Siege can also work since most projectiles get blocked by the statues, giving Zelda superior camp game on the second part..... and the first part is small enough that they can't camp well.

I really need to start trying Brinstar. I hate it so much with Pika, I never ever ever go there, but I feel like it's not so bad with Zelda.

 

[Bandit]

You only get planked at Norfair if you lose the lead, but the lava will stop the planking when it interferes. This is the point of the counterpick.

Battlefield is too comfortable for spammers. They are used to it.

 

[KayLo!]

Meh, to each their own. Norfair is a planker's heaven, lava or no lava, and Zelda has nothing to counter planking. There are soooo many ledges to choose from -- a little fire's not gonna stop somebody from switching ledges. If there's a no planking rule in effect, then sure.

As for BF, I'd rather go there than some janky *** stage where I'll get gimped by a funky ledge or stage shenanigans. In my experience, Zelda does best on basic neutrals. The only CPs that seem to work for her are CS and Brinstar..... everything else has something dumb that can make you lose a stock for no reason.

Frigate has flips and a no-ledge side.
PS1 has dumb ledges.
Lollylat.
Yoshi's has the slopes.
RC..... no, no, no.
Halberd and Delfino..... meeeh~ no, although Delfino's not horrible.

I'd rather rely on my shield + approach skills than have my opponent capitalize on some stupid stage gimpiness.

That's just my opinion, tho. =X

 

[Bandit]

I completely agree with what you said. I simply had to use stages people hated when I was playing. Of course, Norfair was banned in MD/VA so I went to Brinstar.

Frigate is not bad for her. The no ledge side just means she gets punished if she gets pushed out there just like any other stage where she has to recover. At least you have choice of platform or stage. Ryoko used this as a CP against JCaesar's ROB in B+ and won.

Lylat... I used to be so against, but I have done well there in friendlies. It has not come up in tournament in so long, so I can't tell you anything other than I personally have no qualms with it.

PS1 is stupid. Halberd is ok. Delfino has too many stage changes. Any other CP stage is just stupid. Yoshi's is even stupid. Nothing like getting a great gimp only to see them saved by the moving ledge.

Zelda is a "play where YOU are comfortable" character. It's why I didn't use to ban a stage because for every stage you could ban, there are 10 that could destroy you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I was going to suggest RC it takes away their projectiles but allows you to camp.

 

[KayLo!]

@Ryoko thing: But that's B+...... @.@

@AL: RC.... nononono. The top part and the ship aren't so bad for Zelda, but the platform-y part on the left side when it's moving up + the carpet part..... omg. *shudder*

I don't really like RC, period, though. It's such a not legit stage, imo.

 

[mountain_tiger]

The main reason RC isn't that good is that it forces you to be in the air for a lot of the match, and ideally with Zelda you want to stay grounded as much as possible.

Brinstar is worth trying out IMO.

 

[Bandit]

LOL B+ ROB vs Zelda is played almost exactly the same. Just nothing stales anymore. And, Zelda's recovery changes are no free fall after dins and her windown on UpB when in the air is a little faster so she has a chance to recover straight up and make the ledge if she is at the ledge level. Notice I said "chance."

There is nothing changed about the stage either, so it's played the same by Zelda.

Also, I think RC should be banned. When I asked my TO friend why he kept it in, he said "I don't know, nostalgia?" What poor reasoning...

 

[MrEh]

Rainbow Cruise with Zelda is LOL.

 

[KribO]

idk if most people already know, and idk how zelda fairs on it, but a good CP stage against Toon Link is castle siege. TL is completly projectile dependent, so the small space will lead manly to air-bombing and zair. maybe get an arrow or 2 off and a rang here and there, but if its a good stage for zelda, then you'll have better luck on it.

As for part 2 of the stage, the statues block every projectile (arrows, 'rang, zair) except bombs. so camping behind a statue is also yummy % against TL.

3rd stage is up in the air for either. decent spacing, atleast enough to pull some projectile gameing for TL, but (from as fair as i know about zelda) the flat-ish style of it is good for dins fire to stop the projectile.

thats about all i know of that stage vs TL. if you take the projectiles away through most of the match (easily possible through the first 67% of the game) then it should be easy enough to kill TL.

oh, one last thing. in the first part and 3rd part manly, (im sure most of you know) don't let TL above you in the air, as it can lead to an easy DAir for nice %.

anyway, sall i got.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Okay anyone ready to move on to the next discussion?

I like Zelda on RC at first seems bad but once you get comfortable on the stage it plays to a lot of her strengths.

 

[GodAtHand]

Me and Peachkid actually ban Brinstar in teams. We both decided that we hate this stage more than RC.

We actually do surprisingly well on rainbow cruise... The ships not bad. Once the platforming part comes up just get on one of the magic carpets ASAP and camp until you can reach the next part. Then go for a kill since the ceiling is low...

But thats in teams of course.

 

[KayLo!]

Just to clarify and make sure I'm not missing anyone.....

Besides characters without projectiles, the only people Zelda can reliably outcamp (with Din's) are:

DDD
ICs
Pikachu at long range

Yeah? I mean, camping with Din's is still a silly idea in most MUs (even vs. projectile-less characters), but I'm talking in general if it comes to a projectile camp war.

 

[Bandit]

Bowser. I did this just last tournament.

First time I ever reliably dins camped for an entire match. I couldn't get near him (upB out of shield is stupid good in B+).

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Besides characters without projectiles, the only people Zelda can reliably outcamp (with Din's) are:

DDD
ICs
Pikachu at long range

Mario and Luigi to certain extend. (although she won't be causing any damage...)

 

[MrEh]

Bowser. I did this just last tournament.

Besides characters without projectiles, the only people Zelda can reliably outcamp (with Din's) are:

Read.

Mario and Luigi to certain extend. (although she won't be causing any damage...)

I'm pretty sure Luigi can outcamp Zelda. Nair clanks with Dins iirc.

And Mario definately camps Zelda. She can't stop the balls.

 

[-Mars-]

You just dtilt fireballs. Really simple.

 

[AzNfinesse]

mario has like over 9000 different approaches on zelda, where all she can do is stand there and hope she doesn't get owned

 

[-Mars-]

really? do enlighten me.

 

[Bandit]

I never count DDD's minions as projectiles. And apparently I never read full posts...

Go figure.

 

[AzNfinesse]

mario can do the following as approaches

fireball > you can dtilt it but the angle has to be right
sh nair > can be punished with fsmash but can be punishable if you misspace it
sh bair > same as sh fair
dair > rarely see it but it does happen. usually followed by a sh nair/bair that misses
sh fair > i see JWN3d (now known as ATK) and FOW (who now plays a little bit of mario) approach like this a couple of times. and tbh the only real way to counter this is to shield. don't even bother trying to fsmash/usmash mario during the animation because you will just get screwed up.
cape > annoying as hell, but if you can see it coming you CAN punish it (key word being CAN, WILL you punish it? i don't know)

so tbh, the best option really is to shield mario's approaches and hope for the best. yes, there ARE options other than shielding, but it's just not the SMARTEST or BEST option.

 

[Bandit]

Mario is a **** matchup for Zelda. He should never get in on you.

BUT

Fantastic information though. To plan for characters, you have to know what they might do.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I'm pretty sure Luigi can outcamp Zelda. Nair clanks with Dins iirc.

And Mario definately camps Zelda. She can't stop the balls.

Depends entirely on how "camp" is defined. If we're thinking that it means the character forces the other one to approach in order to avoid damage then Zelda camps neither Mario or Luigi, since they can both easily avoid the damage from Din.

However, if camping means being able to avoid approaching yourself and possibly keeping some pressure on the enemy, be it due a projectile, stock lead or w/e, I think it's reasonable to say Zelda can somewhat outcamp Mario brothers.

In the long rage the fireballs can't reach Zelda just like both Mario and Luigi should be able to avoid Din's damage their eyes shut, so, neither side has the lead. If anything Zelda has it because her projectile reaches far enough and she has at least an extremely tiny chance of causing damage.

In the middle range the situation is pretty similar. Mario bros. again have no trouble with Din and likewise Zelda has no real trouble with their fireballs. She can always shield/Dtilt/Din them or maybe even just walk out of their range. Neither side can really follow up after their projectiles because of the distance either, although Luigi can occasionaly try tornado approach if he's risky or hasty. In this situation Mario bros. have overall more mobility than Zelda because they can use aerial approaches/retreating, but they don't really gain anything from this. Going back just resets the positioning while going forward takes them near Zelda's hyphen smash and Fsmash range.

The close range situation doesn't give enough space for effective camping. Zelda can use Din to punish Mario's and Luigi's fireballs if they would be stupid enough to camp with it at this range. Same the other way around: if Zelda Din's camps she'll get punished. So, no camping for either side.

To summarize, neither Mario or Luigi can really force her to approach them nor can she force them to approach her. So, it could be said that both sides outcamp each other as. The only reason why I think Zelda has a slight camping advantage is that despite all her projectile still has the ability to both destroy the fireball and cause damage at the same time, even if the situations for this are far and few between.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

new topic up this is pretty much a mixture of what kaylo had suggested.

 

[KayLo!]

It..... it is? @.@

Sure why not.

You might want to clarify/narrow the focus of the topic, though. "How to use Zelda's moves more effectively" is a bit vague.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It..... it is? @.@

Sure why not.

You might want to clarify/narrow the focus of the topic, though. "How to use Zelda's moves more effectively" is a bit vague.

Well I guess we could talk about certain moves. How would you narrow it down?

 

[AzNfinesse]

to use zelda's move at it's most efficiency, you have to have near perfect spacing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

to use zelda's move at it's most efficiency, you have to have near perfect spacing.

Could you elaborate on that more ?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Could you elaborate on that more ?

There's nothing to elaborate. You simply use the moves at the maximum range possible. This is especially vital for moves like FSmash, DTilt, jab and FTilt, because that way they're safe on block (they can be shieldgrabbed if spaced poorly). Of course Zelda also has plenty of moves that are unsafe on block even if you space them (like DSmash).

 

[Veggie123]

Spacing would be general to her whole moveset, but we can go into slightly more detail about individual attacks.

I used to really be against using Farore's Wind on stage but I've found that it's a decent maneuver if you're trying to get away from a sluggish opponent that has just respawned and is slowly boxing you into a corner.

I also find it handy to avoid the magnetic pull that seems to make people run into charge smashes as well

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There's nothing to elaborate. You simply use the moves at the maximum range possible. This is especially vital for moves like FSmash, DTilt, jab and FTilt, because that way they're safe on block (they can be shieldgrabbed if spaced poorly). Of course Zelda also has plenty of moves that are unsafe on block even if you space them (like DSmash).

So how does that explain how to be better with Nair? Or how to land grabs? Or to land dtilt. Being at max range for dtilt doesn't mean you're going to hit with the move.

 

[GreyFox86]

So how does that explain how to be better with Nair? Or how to land grabs? Or to land dtilt. Being at max range for dtilt doesn't mean you're going to hit with the move.

Ok so please tell us how exactly on how to do it properly seeing how we all don't know how to explain to you how to space properly or to use moves that would benefit Zelda.

Everyone let AL answer this, I really wanna see what he says.

We can all learn a thing or two is we listen.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok so please tell us how exactly on how to do it properly seeing how we all don't know how to explain to you how to space properly or to use moves that would benefit Zelda.

Everyone let AL answer this, I really wanna see what he says.

We can all learn a thing or two is we listen.

Yes I discredited the whole Zelda boards and said no one doing it right. As soon as you find that quote i'll explain. Other than that take your butt sure overly defensive *** out my ****ing thread if you don't have **** to contribute.

 

[mountain_tiger]

So how does that explain how to be better with Nair? Or how to land grabs? Or to land dtilt. Being at max range for dtilt doesn't mean you're going to hit with the move.

Saying that we should discuss 'How to use Zelda's moves more effective!' is incredibly vague. It can mean practically anything... If there are specific moves you want to discuss on to make better, that works out, but as it stands it's hard to decide where the starting point should be.

 

[GreyFox86]

Yes I discredited the whole Zelda boards and said no one doing it right. As soon as you find that quote i'll explain. Other than that take your butt sure overly defensive *** out my ****ing thread if you don't have **** to contribute.

Yada yada yada. I just wanna know why you want everyone else to get into more detail about something as simple as spacing. You need to chill out.

Lets take what you said.

"So how does that explain how to be better with Nair?"

What can Nair do?

Hit 5 times. Can be Auto Canceled. FF Nair can setup for other things.
This is great and what we all know what Nair can do. Please add if I'm missing anything.

On block.....well....you get the opponent OoS option and Shield Grabs.

Lets move on.

"Or how to land grabs?"

Dtilt trip. Dash Grab if they think your going to attack. Baiting them to Shield so you can get in a Grab.

What's bad about that? Laggy startup and cooldown. Meaning if you miss your open to anything your opponent can muster up.


"Or to land dtilt."

Dtilt after Fsmash sometimes. One of your OoS options. When the roll behind you. When they try to come back to the stage when above. Follows well with Dsmash, grab/Fsmash/Hyphen Smash after a trip.

Bad things?

They can SDI out of it at an early percentage. Extends your hitbox for opponents attack if your too outside of the space to space.


Like I said I want you to tell us what little details you want us to prove or explain. If you can toss in info why Dtilt is bad on block or why spacing isn't a factor that helps Zelda then I really would like to hear it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Saying that we should discuss 'How to use Zelda's moves more effective!' is incredibly vague. It can mean practically anything... If there are specific moves you want to discuss on to make better, that works out, but as it stands it's hard to decide where the starting point should be.

Pick a move and discuss it.

Like I said I want you to tell us what little details you want us to prove or explain. If you can toss in info why Dtilt is bad on block or why spacing isn't a factor that helps Zelda then I really would like to hear it.

That's not the point I'm trying to make. What I want isn't just space your moves / thread. That is pointless isn't constructive and doesn't help at all. Now let's take your break down off how to be more effective with landing grabs.

"Or how to land grabs?"

Dtilt trip. Dash Grab if they think your going to attack. Baiting them to Shield so you can get in a Grab.

What's bad about that? Laggy startup and cooldown. Meaning if you miss your open to anything your opponent can muster up.

Good ways to land grabs you don't mention anything about pivot grabs. No do you mention that you can get grabs while you're opponent is close to landing onto the stage. Albeit minor things but things you've neglected to metion. Or how about the fact that some characters have dumb slow fairs so if they are facing you the odds of them prevent you from landing a grab is reduce. What about different times WHen a character is vulnerable and exploit those situations. Let's take a look at your breakdown of Nair now.

What can Nair do?

Hit 5 times. Can be Auto Canceled. FF Nair can setup for other things.
This is great and what we all know what Nair can do. Please add if I'm missing anything.

On block.....well....you get the opponent OoS option and Shield Grabs.

Not one mention of nair from under platforms that's strange I could of sworn that was the best use of nair. Not one mention of landing behind them to reduce punishment. Once again no mention about the speed of the move compared to other moves that you're opponent has or no mention of hell a freak uthrow or usmash to nair. But I guess that's just your bitterness for overlooking these small things. Continuing on with dtilt.

"Or to land dtilt."

Dtilt after Fsmash sometimes. One of your OoS options. When the roll behind you. When they try to come back to the stage when above. Follows well with Dsmash, grab/Fsmash/Hyphen Smash after a trip.

Bad things?

They can SDI out of it at an early percentage. Extends your hitbox for opponents attack if your too outside of the space to space.

Dtilt after a fsmash?? Really that's just seems perplexing to me. How about a dtilt after an auto canceled nair if you properly auto canceled the nair after the fourth hit. How about once again abusing the time when you're opponent is about to land because they have a slow ftilt or dair. Why not go into some follow ups after a dtilt do you always dsmash go for the lock or do you let them out then attempt a bair or fair after they roll. Well you did mention grab earlier in your post, Let's see do you use dtilt when you're opponent is close to the ledge.

Also like to point out that Din's fire could also be used to set up Dtilt or grab or an nair.

So what I'm asking from all other Zelda players is:

One please stop falling into the trap of ZOMG space better. It's not helpful it doesn't lead into a meaningful discussion and it's not needed at all.

Two leave you attitude to out of this thread it's not helpful it doesn't lead into a meaningful discussion.

Three tuck your pride away it isn't helpful and doesn't lead into a meaningful discussion.

Four I'm not trying to call anyone out or ridicule anyone. Just come correct and I'll come correct also. My intentions are genuine my attempts are sincere so please leave your ego attitude or pride whatever you guys are tripping from out of this thread. I really want this to be a civil discussion about Zelda.

Five This stuff may seem basic to some but maybe it could help others which I am hoping. So once again please do not come with this isn't anything new/ ground breaking. It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be a discussion on Zelda in the hopes of making progressing with her. So I'd like to ask katefi to start infract ing people who can not follow these simply guidelines.

Six If someone corrects something or point something out about your post that may be wrong don't get offended take it stride and move on. No one hear his perfect. No one here is playing Zelda perfectly. So ego, attitudes and pride isn't needed it isn't helpful and doesn't lead to meaningful disccusion.


Also for those saying that the current topic is too vague. It's alright pick a move you like to use and different set ups that you like to use in order to make the move effective and that will hopefully lead into more meaningful discussion.

 

[GreyFox86]

So what I'm asking from all other Zelda players is:

One please stop falling into the trap of ZOMG space better. It's not helpful it doesn't lead into a meaningful discussion and it's not needed at all.

Two leave you attitude to out of this thread it's not helpful it doesn't lead into a meaningful discussion.

Three tuck your pride away it isn't helpful and doesn't lead into a meaningful discussion.

Four I'm not trying to call anyone out or ridicule anyone. Just come correct and I'll come correct also. My intentions are genuine my attempts are sincere so please leave your ego attitude or pride whatever you guys are tripping from out of this thread. I really want this to be a civil discussion about Zelda.

Five This stuff may seem basic to some but maybe it could help others which I am hoping. So once again please do not come with this isn't anything new/ ground breaking. It's not supposed to be. It's supposed to be a discussion on Zelda in the hopes of making progressing with her. So I'd like to ask katefi to start infract ing people who can not follow these simply guidelines.

Six If someone corrects something or point something out about your post that may be wrong don't get offended take it stride and move on. No one hear his perfect. No one here is playing Zelda perfectly. So ego, attitudes and pride isn't needed it isn't helpful and doesn't lead to meaningful disccusion.


Also for those saying that the current topic is too vague. It's alright pick a move you like to use and different set ups that you like to use in order to make the move effective and that will hopefully lead into more meaningful discussion.

1. Pointed at me
2. Pointed at me
3. Pointed at me
4. That's fine, whatever. But the topic you posted up is too broad. Zelda has alot of weak points. It would be better if the title started with something. If your doing this for the new Zelda's to come in, as you say, then "How to overcome Zelda's Weakness" doesn't cut it cause it can mean a number amount of things.
5. I would comment on that but I'm afraid I would be infracted for speaking my mind.
6. This isn't about having the perfect Zelda. This is about having the common sense to read what your opponent is doing. Zelda is a defensive character and should be treated as such.

I think you forget that alot of the Zelda's here are not new. And the ones who are new either figure out on their own or ask someone on the boards. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that any laggy move can be punished.

Not one mention of nair from under platforms that's strange I could of sworn that was the best use of nair. Not one mention of landing behind them to reduce punishment. Once again no mention about the speed of the move compared to other moves that you're opponent has or no mention of hell a freak uthrow or usmash to nair. But I guess that's just your bitterness for overlooking these small things. Continuing on with dtilt.



Dtilt after a fsmash?? Really that's just seems perplexing to me. How about a dtilt after an auto canceled nair if you properly auto canceled the nair after the fourth hit. How about once again abusing the time when you're opponent is about to land because they have a slow ftilt or dair. Why not go into some follow ups after a dtilt do you always dsmash go for the lock or do you let them out then attempt a bair or fair after they roll. Well you did mention grab earlier in your post, Let's see do you use dtilt when you're opponent is close to the ledge.

Also like to point out that Din's fire could also be used to set up Dtilt or grab or an nair.

Nair'n under a platform should be a given. I'm not stating situations, I'm stating the move in general. Also landing behind them won't solve anything. You get blocked, you get grabbed. It's as simple as that.

Honestly do you even try the stuff you post up against any player? Dtilt out of Nair? That sounds perplexed. Doing Nair in the way your putting it means your approaching at any giving point in time, other wise none of this would come to light. If you approach, they can shield. If they do that, then you get grabbed. Have you ever tried Dash Grabbing after a well spaced Ike Fair? Unless you PS, your not getting to him. Your getting to his fist.