Zelda Boards more elitist than the marth boards with 1/30 of the results go figure.

[Bandit]

Under the stage and going straight up would kill me. That's the only proper I have when it comes to recovering. Yeah it does happen to me ever now and again not very often but I know Zelda can recover from that point it's just whenever I do the angle is too far out.

Why the hell are you under the stage? You limited your recovery to one tiny chance that you hit that sweetspot. If it isn't Delfino or Halberd, then you are going to die. A smart player will wait for UpB to start, then drop down to the ledge, and you will die regardless.

Don't ever go under the stage like that. There is no reason for Zelda to be there. In fact, never setup a straight up recovery either. You should always give yourself options and stay away from underneath the stage.

I agree with mars. Why are you (general meaning) trying to kill a thread that could actually produce some useful discussion? If you don't agree with its usefulness don't post in it. If you don't agree with the current topic suggest a better one to be discussed next and leave it at that. If you don't like the poster don't judge his thread/posts because of that.

Why is this so hard?

Why are you, like AL, arguing with everyone that posts here. You ignore the information that they do give and just argue about whether or not this topic warrants discussion. Ask a question and get a response. That's pretty much how it works. And several people, including KayLo and me, have suggested different topics and were dismissed. Don't condemn people when you, yourself, are guilty of being ignorant.

And thus you just gave your enemy a golden chance to edgehog since you won't be able to DI or move for a while after FW. All they need to do is airdodge through your appearing hitbox or speedhog after it and voilà: you've lost a stock.

Sometimes it's really better to take the chance and try to sweetspot. They can edgehog or you might fail, but that's how it's going to be when recovering low. At least that way you still have two options instead of one.

This response is a perfect example of someone who didn't read my post. You read one sentence and made a response and on top of that, you are wrong.

Just above the ledge means ON THE ****ING STAGE. Also, you CAN DI any hit while you are doing any move. This means, if you FW on the stage, and they are about to Fsmash you, you CAN DI correctly.

Your ignorance is baffling.

PS - The Naryu's momentum canceling you video is quite hilarious. It showed how Zelda needed MORE ROOM to do that than simply Bair + Jump. Congratulations on that one.

 

[Kataefi]

Listen up.

AL is cycling around topics to be discussed. He will addressing all the points that Bandit, Kaylo and others have addressed, much like when a matchup thread discusses Ganon with the intention of discussing the top tiers in due course.

That's what you're intending AL? Right? RIGHT?

Let's stick it out with 'what's the best way to momentum cancel...' 'how do we recover on this stage...' etc etc... and we'll move on swiftly.

Nayru's momentum cancel is ever so slightly better in terms of survival than the DJ. There's a 5%+- difference from what I tested. That's very small... but your DJ is spared, and you've lived 5% longer. It's more of a momentum deceleration than a cancel.

I have a question... the startup animation of Dair is on what frame? I know the attack comes out on frame 14/15/whatever but does the startup animation count towards immediate fast-falling if you press down on the c stick? They say using your fastest move doesn't actually contribute to your momentum cancel - instead it allows you to fastfall>DJ which is the core aspect of momentum DI. So... if Dair fastfalls on frame 1... it may beat out bair, which doesn't. Food for thought. I'll test which is better tonight.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Listen up.

AL is cycling around topics to be discussed. He will addressing all the points that Bandit, Kaylo and others have addressed, much like when a matchup thread discusses Ganon with the intention of discussing the top tiers in due course.

That's what you're intending AL? Right? RIGHT?

Let's stick it out with 'what's the best way to momentum cancel...' 'how do we recover on this stage...' etc etc... and we'll move on swiftly.

Nayru's momentum cancel is ever so slightly better in terms of survival than the DJ. There's a 5%+- difference from what I tested. That's very small... but your DJ is spared, and you've lived 5% longer. It's more of a momentum deceleration than a cancel.

I have a question... the startup animation of Dair is on what frame? I know the attack comes out on frame 14/15/whatever but does the startup animation count towards immediate fast-falling if you press down on the c stick? They say using your fastest move doesn't actually contribute to your momentum cancel - instead it allows you to fastfall>DJ which is the core aspect of momentum DI. So... if Dair fastfalls on frame 1... it may beat out bair, which doesn't. Food for thought. I'll test which is better tonight.

I think you FF your fastest aerial so that you can have control of your character sooner to be able to DJ. Yes I do intend to go on to other topics. That was the point of this it wasn't just for this one topic.

Why the hell are you under the stage? You limited your recovery to one tiny chance that you hit that sweetspot. If it isn't Delfino or Halberd, then you are going to die. A smart player will wait for UpB to start, then drop down to the ledge, and you will die regardless.

Don't ever go under the stage like that. There is no reason for Zelda to be there. In fact, never setup a straight up recovery either. You should always give yourself options and stay away from underneath the stage.

A lot of things go on during matches so who know it doesn't happen very often just somtimes. But its still annoying not to be able to recover from that point. I think it's better to be able recover from all points and know all the points in which Zelda can recover from. This like I said is the only part of the stage I have trouble recovering from.

And I'll move onto another topic.

 

[Veggie123]

I sometimes reverse momentum cancel just to get back to the stage. It reminds me to save my second jump...it's fun to do lol. I don't expect it to save my life though since it takes way too long to get started.

Is dealing with projectiles the next topic? Powershielding.

For spammers I tend to walk and powershield since it's easier for me and there's a tiny intimidation factor when you do it. It's like "o shi-this isn't working, what now?" I can powershield everything pretty consistently now save Falco's lasers and Rob's stuff for some reason.

 

[zeldspazz]

Outcamp them with Dins. Try it.

Spoiler

I hope nobody takes that seriously.

Just powersheild. Zelda sucks, so thats the only way so lets accept it and move on as Im sure everyone else will say since they know everything. No need for discussion right?

>_>

/annoyed response

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I sometimes reverse momentum cancel just to get back to the stage. It reminds me to save my second jump...it's fun to do lol. I don't expect it to save my life though since it takes way too long to get started.

Is dealing with projectiles the next topic? Powershielding.

For spammers I tend to walk and powershield since it's easier for me and there's a tiny intimidation factor when you do it. It's like "o shi-this isn't working, what now?" I can powershield everything pretty consistently now save Falco's lasers and Rob's stuff for some reason.

That's weird the only lasers you should have problems PS'ing is Foxes.

Also think we should identify which projectiles are the most troublesome for Zelda then talk about why it's troublesome for Zelda then talk about ways to deal with them.

 

[KayLo!]

Thank ****ing god @subject change.

Perfect shield ftw, but I actually do have more to contribute..... later. Crossing my fingers that I get my keys back today so I can post it when I get back. (Long story.)

 

[Bandit]

Actually, dtilt is her friend (besides the obvious answer of power shielding).

Dtilt is 5 frames of goodness that can stop projectiles in their tracks. Aura spheres, gyros, arrows, etc all fall victim to this wonderful move. It is more useful than NL because you don't deal with the end lag.

NL is good if you know you won't get punished. If you are close to them and will reflect the projectile back in their face, then this is the right thing to do. If they are really far away, this is the right thing to do. Just don't do it in the mid-range where they can bait it and punish it.

As for lasers, you need to pick your spots. There are times when you should disregard them and just not bother dodging or shielding (like high percentage against Fox... there is no need to block the lasers since you will die anyway to any of his kill moves). There are times when power shielding is the only option like against falco. You can Naryu's and hit him which will stun him temporarily but just as long as you will be in the end lag of your own move.

Feel free to use any of my points as launching points for discussion. I, in no way, think these are the end all answers. Spam is situational so it is good to know your options.

Oh, and dins has uses against spam but I can bring that up later if someone doesn't.

:bandit:

 

[zeldspazz]

Im pretty sure that HS made a huge list of everything that dtilt cancels. He posted in Fairy Fountain maybe? Then we can have an absolute list. I never really think of dtilt as an anti camp move.

Does taking them to place like Battlefield help get around camping? Platform hopping can cause them to change their patterns I was thinking.

 

[KayLo!]

Lasers are annoying, but for some reason, the most aggravating projectiles for me are Pit's arrows. They're fast, he can angle them, and he can control when he releases them, which can **** up shield timing.

Off the top of my head, my list of spam from hardest to easiest to deal with would be:

- Pit's arrows
- Olimar's pikmin (pretty much a tie with Pit, though)
- Falco's lasers
- TL's bull****
- Snake's grenades
- Diddy's bananas
- Wolf's lasers
- Lucario's Aura Sphere
- Ness's/Lucas's PK Fire (Lucas's is slightly more annoying, imo)
- Link's bull****
- Samus's bull****
- Mario's/Luigi's Fireballs
- Yoshi's eggs
- ZSS's paralyzer
- Fox's lasers (only because I just kind of blow through them from getting impatient, which is the wrong thing to do, lol)
- Pika's tjolts
- ROB's laser/gyro
- ICs' ice blocks
- Ivy's Razor Leaf
- DDD's Waddles

Disclaimer: That's a very rough, very subjective list, before anybody jumps down my throat. And it's not necessarily a list of hardest > easiest to shield..... I took into account everything, including damage and how the opponent might use the projectiles to generally screw Zelda over.

I didn't put Sheik's needles because I dunno where to put them, honestly. I.... don't really ever play against good Sheiks.

EDIT: I think I put Wolf's lasers too high, but oh well. Too lazy to rearrange.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hmmm you put Samus's bull**** that high huh? Care to explain?

Also Yoshis eggs are horribly underrated imo.

 

[KayLo!]

I dunno, I consider zair a projectile for TL/Link/Samus, so that might explain why I put her "bull****" that high. Between her true projectiles and zair, it's really, really annoying to get inside her, but on the whole, I don't think her spam is that bad.

I just have more experience with/have an easier time with the ones below her, although Mario/Luigi's fireballs might be above Samus's **** on second thought. Like I said, the list is really subjective, so it's heavily influenced by which MUs I have more experience with.

Yoshi's eggs are underrated, but for some reason, I have a pretty easy time perfect shielding them. @.@ And I don't feel like they limit me the same way other projectiles do.

 

[zeldspazz]

I see, zair is definitely a hassle when used right.

Does anyone know if a fully charged Aura Sphere will beat out an airdodge at any time? It looks so big that Ive always wondered that.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Yes before you respond to make yourself look better than me, I did watch the video and let me ask you this. Do you honestly believe you have that much room to cancel like that on a stage, save getting hit going to the opposite end of the stage? Aside from stages like FD, and Japes you can always just DI and Bair your way back to the stage

Before actually answering I'm going to ask: why the hell would I try to make myself look better than you? I have no reason to believe so, no proof to back it up or nothing to gain from it.

There aren't many situations when reverse NL momentum canceling is genuinely the best option. In fact, I don't remember when I used it last time in an actual match. However, despite this it still does stop Zelda's momentum, which you said it wouldn't, so I decided to correct the false information.

Why are you, like AL, arguing with everyone that posts here. You ignore the information that they do give and just argue about whether or not this topic warrants discussion. Ask a question and get a response. That's pretty much how it works. And several people, including KayLo and me, have suggested different topics and were dismissed. Don't condemn people when you, yourself, are guilty of being ignorant.

I didn't ignore the information given. Instead I commented on the way the several people you mentioned gave their suggestions about different topic. Those who didn't agree with the topic also gave a good deal of useful information and they expressed their discontent for the current topic and said what they'd rather discuss. That's all nice and good. However, instead of just saying "I don't think this is a good topic to discuss, how about this one?" they did this by adding comments along the lines of "lol counterpick", "you can't overcome her weaknesses" and "recover. /thread" which really served no purpose other than to kill the discussion.

This response is a perfect example of someone who didn't read my post. You read one sentence and made a response and on top of that, you are wrong.

Actually, no, I didn't base my response to that one sentence. Instead what actually happened is that I misread your post. As appropriate you also misread my response, though.

Just above the ledge means ON THE ****ING STAGE. Also, you CAN DI any hit while you are doing any move. This means, if you FW on the stage, and they are about to Fsmash you, you CAN DI correctly.

Your ignorance is baffling.

Rageposting sure is fun, it makes everything to get understood wrong.

How I read your post was that "below the stage" means that you're horizontally at the same point than the ledge but below it in vertical axel. In that case Zelda can only FW straight up to either sweetspot the ledge or get slightly above it.

Also, I never said anything about DI'ing an attack. What I said is that you won't be able to DI for a while after FW, a.k.a. you'll be unable to move left or right. If you're teleporting at any angle other than straight up or down this won't be as obvious since you have some carry over momentum from the move, but in the situation I was thinking about it means only one thing: if enemy reads this he can easily edgehog and there's nothing you can do.

Im pretty sure that HS made a huge list of everything that dtilt cancels. He posted in Fairy Fountain maybe? Then we can have an absolute list. I never really think of dtilt as an anti camp move.

It has its own thread, the link is in the Q&A/Directory thread.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Does taking them to place like Battlefield help get around camping? Platform hopping can cause them to change their patterns I was thinking.

If you camp the platforms I'm pretty sure you'll be able to avoid the projectiles.

Lasers are annoying, but for some reason, the most aggravating projectiles for me are Pit's arrows. They're fast, he can angle them, and he can control when he releases them, which can **** up shield timing.

Off the top of my head, my list of spam from hardest to easiest to deal with would be:

- Pit's arrows
- Olimar's pikmin (pretty much a tie with Pit, though)
- Falco's lasers
- TL's bull****
- Snake's grenades
- Diddy's bananas
- Wolf's lasers
- Lucario's Aura Sphere
- Ness's/Lucas's PK Fire (Lucas's is slightly more annoying, imo)
- Link's bull****
- Samus's bull****
- Mario's/Luigi's Fireballs
- Yoshi's eggs
- ZSS's paralyzer
- Fox's lasers (only because I just kind of blow through them from getting impatient, which is the wrong thing to do, lol)
- Pika's tjolts
- ROB's laser/gyro
- ICs' ice blocks
- Ivy's Razor Leaf
- DDD's Waddles

Disclaimer: That's a very rough, very subjective list, before anybody jumps down my throat. And it's not necessarily a list of hardest > easiest to shield..... I took into account everything, including damage and how the opponent might use the projectiles to generally screw Zelda over.

I didn't put Sheik's needles because I dunno where to put them, honestly. I.... don't really ever play against good Sheiks.

EDIT: I think I put Wolf's lasers too high, but oh well. Too lazy to rearrange.

Could you explain some of the higher characters like Pit and Olimar. I tend to have more trouble with a nade camping snake or with diddy's bananas. Also from the list you made the five I'd want us to talk about would be Tlink, Falco, Snake, Diddy and Olimar. If we can narrow your list down I think we can get a real focused discussion o these jectiles. Also if anyone one know what jectiles din's cancel out or which one dtilts cancels out would be good info also.

 

[MrEh]

Every character can airdodge through an Aura Sphere. Peach included.

It's just harder for her, and fatter characters.

 

[zeldspazz]

Every character can airdodge through an Aura Sphere. Peach included.

It's just harder for her, and fatter characters.

Even at its strongest and biggest?

Like losing, 150+ damage? If so thanks.

 

[MrEh]

You can if you're moving and with good timing. Pretty sure.

If it's possible with Peach...

 

[zeldspazz]

You can if you're moving and with good timing. Pretty sure.

If it's possible with Peach...

Gotcha. Thanks a lot.

Too bad Im on wifi and using lots of Peach lately. Lmao

 

[GodAtHand]

This thread has too many words.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This thread has too many words.

how else do we communicate.

 

[GodAtHand]

I just don't want to read through it all lol. I went away for the weekend so now theres too much for me to read through!

I'll join in on the next conversation!

 

[Bandit]

@HSS

DI is only when talking about re-angling the knockback of an attack. The free fall Zelda falls in is simply her horizontal mobility. You were using DI wrong, so I misunderstood your intent. I actually answered correctly for what you wrote.

-----

For Pit's arrows...

...

**** them! Seriously, Pit is one of the biggest thorns in my side. He is just not a good match-up to deal with. I'd much rather deal with Falco which is saying a lot.

-----

@KayLo, I like your list. I'll comment more on it later.

:bandit:

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I just don't want to read through it all lol. I went away for the weekend so now theres too much for me to read through!

I'll join in on the next conversation!

Well we're discussing projectiles now so if you want to add something just through it out there. The first topic was recovering with Zelda if you want to add something to that you can as well. Just through you're knowledge into the mix and hopefully something good can come from this.

**** them! Seriously, Pit is one of the biggest thorns in my side. He is just not a good match-up to deal with. I'd much rather deal with Falco which is saying a lot.

Other than while recovering with is the major problem with pit's arrow I don't get it.

 

[KayLo!]

Could you explain some of the higher characters like Pit and Olimar. I tend to have more trouble with a nade camping snake or with diddy's bananas. Also from the list you made the five I'd want us to talk about would be Tlink, Falco, Snake, Diddy and Olimar. If we can narrow your list down I think we can get a real focused discussion o these jectiles. Also if anyone one know what jectiles din's cancel out or which one dtilts cancels out would be good info also.

@Pit's arrows: They're bad for three reasons, imo.

1) He can angle them. Makes trying to approach with jumps just as aggravating as approaching on the ground.
2) Even worse is that he can control when he releases them. Naryu's is rarely a good choice for reflecting anything, but it's even more *** in this situation because if you NL too early, that's a guaranteed free arrow for him. Delayed arrow releases can also **** up shield timing and generally mindgame you.
3) They're fast. The first two things wouldn't be so bad (I mean, Din's is similarly controllable), but the fact that his arrows are so fast makes the first two points so much worse.

@Olimar's pikmin: It's not so much that pikmin are hard to avoid, but Oli's camp game is one of the worst for Zelda to deal with since it, like most camp, 100% forces her to approach. And approaching Olimar is literally impossible, so pikmin are basically part 1 of a rapetastic matchup.

At least with most characters, you can approach with your shield and attempt to zone or box them in at close-mid range, but with Olimar, his pikmin force you to walk straight into the hands of death.

@Snake/Diddy: Snake's grenades are pretty bad for Zelda, but I have a lot of Snake experience, so that's probably why they don't bother me as much. I'm just.... used to them. They're also not very fast..... I don't have a ton of trouble maneuvering around them, although on small stages or stages with low platforms, it can be ****ing impossible to avoid getting blown up or risking a tiny shield.

Diddy's bananas are all about predicting the Diddy, imo. Most Diddys fall into a pattern when they throw bananas, so I like to mess around and time NLs or airdodge catches whenever I think they're gonna throw one at me. It's like a game. @.@ Even if you guess wrong, Zelda's trip roll is wtfamazing, so as long as they didn't glide toss right into you, you can usually roll to safety.

Besides that, you can use them against him.

EDIT: Not saying bananas or grenades are easy to deal with, of course. Just that, for me, Pit's arrows and pikmin (and whatever else I listed above them) are harder.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

EDIT: Not saying bananas or grenades are easy to deal with, of course. Just that, for me, Pit's arrows and pikmin (and whatever else I listed above them) are harder.

You didn't really need this. Your post was good.

As for pitts arrows isn't there like a certain point where they start to curve or can he curve them right after shooting them? Also I would try SH din's. They probably won't trade but the din's could force him to shield and possibly knock him off stage. Which is a plus IMO since it kind of interrupts his camp game.

As for olimar Pikmin the best course of action would be to hop on a platform and force him to either come to you or jump and throw pikmin that should make the pikmin easy to avoid and make the olimar more predictable and it should also allow you to sneak in a Dins. Be careful he doesn't run under and Usmash you though. Also you could try reflecting them so that some latch on to him. I'd only advise this at low percentages when you can afford to be a little riskier than you would at high percentages considering how quickly he kills.

 

[Bandit]

You can't dins Pit because he pecks you with an arrow then you have a rogue fireball you can't control. A good Pit will also steal your jump with his arrows or continuously interrupt FW from coming out. Pit can always curve his arrows.

As for Pikmin, you, again, can't sneak dins. While you are trying to hit him, he's latching 3 pikmin on you. Fortunately, you can Nair and send them flying, but he could always whistle them back. No Olimar has to approach you because the pikmin deal so much damage when they latch (and they are unshieldable).

Dins, in general, is not a good anti-camp strategy.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You can't dins Pit because he pecks you with an arrow then you have a rogue fireball you can't control. A good Pit will also steal your jump with his arrows or continuously interrupt FW from coming out. Pit can always curve his arrows.

As for Pikmin, you, again, can't sneak dins. While you are trying to hit him, he's latching 3 pikmin on you. Fortunately, you can Nair and send them flying, but he could always whistle them back. No Olimar has to approach you because the pikmin deal so much damage when they latch (and they are unshieldable).

Dins, in general, is not a good anti-camp strategy.

I know that pit can always curve his arrows but there's point when he shots that the arrow won't curve downward it's not as though he can shot arrows at ridiculous steep angles. It has to travel a bit then it curves. Also if you angle the din's towards the ground it won't just be a rogue fire ball even if you do lose control the threat of it exploding will force a shield or some type of defensive reaction from your opponent.

Din is helpful when people try to camp you its better than doing nothing and it's also better than running into the ****. Don't be so quick to write din's off as an option.

 

[Bandit]

I write it off because Pit's arrows are so quick that even if you angle it downward and he shields, he will be right back on the horse with the arrows and you gain almost no advantage. This goes for most spam.

Dins cannot out camp any other projectile. With someone like Pit who is mobile while spamming his projectile, he can always be on the move. You can't assume he is just standing in place shooting arrows. This is another reason why just angling dins down won't stop the spam.

Honestly, the best way to keep Pit from spamming arrows is to stay up in his face. Space bairs and stay just out of his fsmash range. If he's like that, he'll have a tough time using his arrows against you.

 

[KayLo!]

Someone should copy over the list of projectiles dtilt cancels out. Because I'm..... too lazy. ;;

I've never tried using dtilt instead of shielding. Is it actually useful? As in.... better than a regular shield. Obviously perfect shielding is always best, but reliably pshielding every projectile in a match is pretty unrealistic.

 

[-Mars-]

I dtilt slow projectiles like mario's fireballs, pika's tjolts, and tinks boomerang oh and pikmin spam you can dtilt and refresh your moves.

 

[GreyFox86]

Someone should copy over the list of projectiles dtilt cancels out. Because I'm..... too lazy. ;;

I've never tried using dtilt instead of shielding. Is it actually useful? As in.... better than a regular shield. Obviously perfect shielding is always best, but reliably pshielding every projectile in a match is pretty unrealistic.

Dtilt'n projectiles is useful. Most of the projectiles just clank on her foot cause of the hitbox of Dtilt. Against moves like PK Fire, your really better off shielding. Just from what I know, Pit's arrows, Snake's 'nades, Kirby's UpB, both Link's arrows, Pika's T-jolt, D3's Waddle Doo/Dee, Mario's Fireball, Peach's Turnip, Ivy's Razor Leaf, IC's Ice Block, and Samus missiles.

Granted that the hitbox of the her Dtilt can reach it, they all just clank. The PSI boys, ROB, Olimar, Space Animals have priority over it.

Again don't quote me on this cause I'm just guess'n on some.

 

[KayLo!]

tinks boomerang

Ooo, interesting. I'm gonna try this next time I play the one in my crew.

@GreyFox: Ty. I guess I'll start trying it more.

 

[Veggie123]

Does clanking cancel out the animation as well? I can't seem to remember.

I'm trying to see the benefits over shielding.

 

[-Mars-]

Refreshing your moveset.

 

[GreyFox86]

Refreshing your moveset.

That's basically about it.

Once you clank, you reset yourself which in theory is good, but in obvious situations, just shield.

 

[MrEh]

Simple solutions are the best.


How to deal with projectiles? You approach. Does it solve the problem? No. But you can't do anything else.

 

[Bandit]

Dtilt'n projectiles is useful. Most of the projectiles just clank on her foot cause of the hitbox of Dtilt. Against moves like PK Fire, your really better off shielding. Just from what I know, Pit's arrows, Snake's 'nades, Kirby's UpB, both Link's arrows, Pika's T-jolt, D3's Waddle Doo/Dee, Mario's Fireball, Peach's Turnip, Ivy's Razor Leaf, IC's Ice Block, and Samus missiles.

Granted that the hitbox of the her Dtilt can reach it, they all just clank. The PSI boys, ROB, Olimar, Space Animals have priority over it.

Again don't quote me on this cause I'm just guess'n on some.

You forgot ROB's gyro as long as it isn't settled on the ground. This comes in handy because if you don't reflect it, but you keep it in front of you, you can enlarge your fsmash or usmash hit box when he comes after it.

All ROB's flip out when you take their gyro. It's hilarious.

 

[GreyFox86]

That is true, but more times than most there is a beam after that.

I think just PS both would be better.

 

[Bandit]

You are right. A laser will almost always follow, but if you shield the gyro, he gets it back as a projectile. By controling the gyro, ROB is forced to use the weak, telegraphed laser.

It's a situational call, but I played a ROB who simply threw gyro after gyro as I shielded them. He just kept backing up and hitting me over and over. Eventually, I got hit something because my shield was nothing and the whole process started over again. Once I took his gyro from him, he no longer could just camp me with his projectiles. This player now plays MK and camps him too. Unfortunately for him, his string of last place finishes has gotten to hilariously high levels.

Yes, last place with MK. At that point, you should quit smash.