WhiteLightnin
Smash Journeyman
Greetings everyone! As the title suggests, I'm creating this thread to talk about Zelda's balance in ProjectM and to stress the importance of MU learning. Please feel free to express your opinion, but I ask that we keep things cordial and simply about Zelda's fit in the game (no personal attacks). The rest of this post will include points (some of which contain my personal opinion) about how Zelda is balanced, other brief character references, how Zelda brings diversity to the game, as well as mentioning specifics about her current moveset.
It is my personal opinion that Zelda is currently very well balanced in relation to the rest of the cast. I feel she does compete well within the competitive community, but is not OP by any means. Any sense of her being overpowered simply comes from a lack of knowledge about the Zelda matchup. Remember, Melee has been out for a little over 12 years now and it has been concluded by a large portion of the community that she is not tournament viable in that game. It took time to learn she isn't viable. She has similarities to that version of Smash but a lot has changed. Therefore, she is now for the most part an entirely new matchup to learn. Fox, on the other hand, has had his design reverted back to his Melee design as close as possible, and thus the community knows what to expect from him. Zelda has a lot of powerful kill moves and is great at controlling space/limiting options through the use of Din's. This can make it very frustrating and seem impossible to fight against her. This brings me back to my main point. This feeling will arise only if one doesn't know the matchup. The reality is she has some great tools to make her a viable character, but they can be countered well within the range of human capabilities. It simply comes down to Zelda matchup knowledge, outsmarting your opponent, and making the right choices at the right time. I believe those are the exact elements people look for in any type of fighting game including Smash. In the perfect Smash game, it would be nice to be able to pick any character, learn how it functions, learn how other characters function, and be able to defeat them by applying that knowledge with decision making that allows you to outsmart your opponent through your ability as a player. All the characters would have tools to allow them to perform well at their highest level so that any of them could win against any other. The deciding factors would entirely be upon one's situational awareness and the ability to apply it in the middle of the battle. In other words, you outsmart and outplay your opponent. You won because you are you, not because you played as character "x". Obviously, this dream is not possible to fully achieve (short of only having one character which would be extremely boring) but that doesn't mean we can't strive to come as close as possible. I feel Zelda fits well into that mold while providing an approach that breathes life into the diversity of the game. But why simply take my word for it? Allow me to show you.
I have taken a great deal of time to learn how Zelda works including many of her tricks. Below is an exploration of how many of Zelda's current known tools function within the context of balance for your convenience. The balance is demonstrated through the pros and cons I mention in each description. I am guessing most of the gripes people have with Zelda concern her Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind so you may want to jump to those sections if you feel so inclined.
Lastly I want to thank all the developers of the PMBR for making another character viable at a competitive level. Melee was great, but the main problem was that the entire game was dominated by arguably four to five characters at most which isn't so good for a game that has 25/26 characters. With Project M we have an even larger roster now. I think you have a great character on your hands, and that simply time is needed before any major buff/nerfs would need to be considered. Keep up the good work!
It is my personal opinion that Zelda is currently very well balanced in relation to the rest of the cast. I feel she does compete well within the competitive community, but is not OP by any means. Any sense of her being overpowered simply comes from a lack of knowledge about the Zelda matchup. Remember, Melee has been out for a little over 12 years now and it has been concluded by a large portion of the community that she is not tournament viable in that game. It took time to learn she isn't viable. She has similarities to that version of Smash but a lot has changed. Therefore, she is now for the most part an entirely new matchup to learn. Fox, on the other hand, has had his design reverted back to his Melee design as close as possible, and thus the community knows what to expect from him. Zelda has a lot of powerful kill moves and is great at controlling space/limiting options through the use of Din's. This can make it very frustrating and seem impossible to fight against her. This brings me back to my main point. This feeling will arise only if one doesn't know the matchup. The reality is she has some great tools to make her a viable character, but they can be countered well within the range of human capabilities. It simply comes down to Zelda matchup knowledge, outsmarting your opponent, and making the right choices at the right time. I believe those are the exact elements people look for in any type of fighting game including Smash. In the perfect Smash game, it would be nice to be able to pick any character, learn how it functions, learn how other characters function, and be able to defeat them by applying that knowledge with decision making that allows you to outsmart your opponent through your ability as a player. All the characters would have tools to allow them to perform well at their highest level so that any of them could win against any other. The deciding factors would entirely be upon one's situational awareness and the ability to apply it in the middle of the battle. In other words, you outsmart and outplay your opponent. You won because you are you, not because you played as character "x". Obviously, this dream is not possible to fully achieve (short of only having one character which would be extremely boring) but that doesn't mean we can't strive to come as close as possible. I feel Zelda fits well into that mold while providing an approach that breathes life into the diversity of the game. But why simply take my word for it? Allow me to show you.
I have taken a great deal of time to learn how Zelda works including many of her tricks. Below is an exploration of how many of Zelda's current known tools function within the context of balance for your convenience. The balance is demonstrated through the pros and cons I mention in each description. I am guessing most of the gripes people have with Zelda concern her Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind so you may want to jump to those sections if you feel so inclined.
- Din's Fire (forward B). Perhaps one of Zelda's greatest tools, Din's allows Zelda to limit multiple options of her opponent at one time and is great for allowing her to extend her combos. She can have up to three set at one time and there is a set timer for them to go off after they are placed. Placing a new Din's resets the timer and they will all go off at the same time. This means you can constantly refresh the timer as much as you want as long as you can place a new Din's until you are ready to wait out the time for them to detonate. The developers have included a visual cue on the Din's flame once it is set so that both you and your opponent can know exactly when it will detonate. Zelda can also choose to manually detonate all Din's currently on the stage by using her down B. The explosion is NOT instantaneous. It will not happen until Zelda is imbued with her white light visual so there is definitely time to react before being caught in any of the explosions. Keep in mind the explosion will be bigger than the space the set Din's occupies. The Din's mines get bigger and faster the longer they travel before they are placed, and the bigger the mine the bigger the explosion. You are not helpless to deal with these mines once they have been placed! You can clank them with your shield which while the mine remains on the field, you can safely move through it until the explosion occurs. If another mine is placed on the stage, the original mine you clanked will be able to hit you. You can get rid of them with other projectiles and by attacking them. They can't be reflected to hurt Zelda. The mine portion of Din's can be absorbed by Ness and Lucas but the explosion can NOT be absorbed. I feel it is a little bit easier to absorb with Lucas as his version of absorption extends in front of him rather than around his body. With Ness you either have to space it really well or cause some form of momentum that will carry you through the Din's with your absorption shield activated before hand. Also, Zelda is extremely vulnerable while placing using Din's. The only way she can hit you is by moving the mine and placing it in your path if you are approaching her and with a series of jumps or a quick roll you should be able to get to her and punish before she has time to react. This is assuming you are starting from a close to close-medium range if you have no form of projectile. Even after placing the mine she still suffers from some cool down time that you can use to your advantage. However, most experienced Zelda's are well aware of this fact so they will likely be pretty smart about their situational use of Din's so as to minimize such an opportunity.
- Sheik Transformation (down B). As mentioned above, choosing to change into Sheik will cause any mines on the field to detonate after a short pause. The explosion will occur when Zelda cloaks herself within the white light. Also, both Zelda and Sheik can buffer any attack out of the transformation that ends while in the air with a directional input on the control stick and one of the attack buttons. This also works with either attack button and no control stick input. The c-stick will not work and the buffer will not work while grounded. A continuous attack that occurs when the transformation is finished makes the transformation unsafe (such as Mario's dair). You could also always choose to bait the Zelda for a whiff, counter, etc.
- Farore's Wind (up B). This is another one of Zelda's major tools as it aides in recovery and allows Zelda to close down on greater distances more quickly. Near the startup she has an attack that comes out and covers her whole body. She can be attacked offstage between the attack and before she actually disappears to teleport. Upon reentry another attack comes out that can be shielded and punished or even punished immediately with the right attack and spacing. This attack, or the Teleburn, can also be crouch canceled so you have four options to deal with it (crouch cancel, OoS, movement/spacing and punish, overpower/trade with character specific moves). During a grounded FW she can cancel it into a wave dash at any time after she disappears for the teleportation and before she reappears with the attack. She can play mind games with this technique but you can react and punish anywhere she could appear near enough to threaten you since she cancels with a wave dash. She can not use the cancel if she disappears for the teleport while in the air. I mention this because she can do the canceled version of FW if she starts the input in the air but lands on the ground before the actual teleportation takes place.
- Nayru's Love (neutral B). I feel this is the move that receives the most complaints. However, it is incredibly balanced. There are two versions of it that behave slightly differently from each other. The grounded version has intangibility, but it does not start until the fourth frame. The intangibility ends one frame after the attack begins. While this may seem very good it is a move that should only be used when you have a guaranteed hit. The end lag on it is huge. It is so huge that one can shield it, let go of shield, AND attack before Zelda can do anything about it. The aerial version is one of the main ways Zelda can start her combos as it can land cancel if Zelda lands from the air anytime after the attack portion of the move finishes. However, as of 3.0, it's combo ability has been a bit more limited due to the couple extra frames added before it can be acted out of. This means the land canceled version is no longer really a way of creating shield pressure as the opponent has just enough time to input an action before Zelda can follow up with another move. The aerial version's intangibility does not start until the fifth frame and it ends the same frame as the attack begins. Notice the tweak between the two versions for balancing. The aerial version can land cancel but when hit in the air at the end of the intangibility it will trade rather than overpower another attack. Furthermore, the attack only comes out horizontally close to Zelda's waist making it easy to hit her during the attack portion of Nayru's when approaching from the correct angles. This is less of an issue with the grounded version as usually the opponent is also grounded. Zelda players also have the option of not canceling the aerial version by continuing to hold the B button. While this means Zelda will have to deal with the usual ending hitlag, the reflective properties of Nayru's stay out longer. This could be especially useful against a Samus or Mewtwo that have learned the timing of your land cancel and time a missile or fully charged shot to hit you. By holding the B button, you can reflect the shot/projectile back at them potentially catching them by surprise. Using Nayru's at the end of hitstun causes Zelda to move downward while performing it. Some people complain about it interrupting their combos. Once again, the intangibility does not come out until frame 5 and thus it was not a true combo anyway if the move can be performed. Finally, if one notices there is a spot in his/her combo where the Zelda is repeatedly interrupting it with Nayru's why not simply bait it out? Even if the Zelda gets the land cancel (which is not too often in this situation) she is still wide open for a punish. She has another option called a Love Jump which is basically a hold over from Brawl. It is done by jumping right at the end of hitstun and immediately pressing B. This will send Zelda high into the air while performing Nayru's. Balance was applied to this option in two ways. First off, it uses up Zelda's double jump, second while it may cause her to temporarily escape harm it sends her high into the air. ZELDAS DO NOT WANT TO BE IN THE AIR ABOVE YOU. It is her weakest position if you are not recovering. She has very few options while above you. She is not a fast faller so it takes her awhile to get down. She can use teleport, but you can punish it both shortly after startup and at the end. As previously mentioned, Nayru's only attacks horizontally from around the middle of her character model so that won't work well. Her dair takes too long to come out to be in any way reliable. She could try to intercept you with a Din's but in this situation that takes ridiculous timing and placement. It could be just me but if you know all of this stuff about Nayru's it sounds pretty balanced to me, and I don't mean just in theory.
- F-Smash. Zelda mostly relies upon this move for spacing. It has good range and a disjointed hitbox. It has a slow start up and can be perfect shielded throughout the entire attack allowing for a punish on the end of it. It also has a fair amount of end lag so it can sometimes be punished on whiff. Interestingly, it does have below average hitlag in comparison to other F-Smashes in the game. The F-Smash is also useful for pushing opponents off of platforms or the edge of the stage if performed on a regular shield and properly spaced. You will want to make sure the final hitbox of the move lands for the greatest effect on the shield push. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.
- D-Smash. This moves comes out fast and is designed to give Zelda space from opponents breathing down her neck. It is easily punishable on whiff. It also can be used for shield push scenarios. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.
- Up-Smash. This is one of Zelda's moves that allows for a further combo depending on the character. It comes out pretty quickly but is easily punished on whiff or on shield. It also only attacks where her hand reaches in the air so characters have to be right on her/immediately next to her if they are going to be caught from the ground. It can also be ducked under by some characters. It can be SDI'd out of if the opponent is on the very tip of the hitbox right when it first connects.
- neutral A. Zelda's jab is a single jab that deals decent damage for a jab. It can be used to combo depending on the opponents position and their use of DI. This being said, it is also very slow for a jab. Although one of her moves with less endlag, it is still relatively unsafe on shield without very good spacing.
- f-tilt. This is one of Zelda's major set up moves for combos. However, it has to be properly spaced or it will knock the opponent away from her. The opponent can also mix up his/her DI so as to make it hard for her to follow up with her optimum combos. It will also only combo from low to medium percents. It can be used for shield push scenarios.
- d-tilt. d-tilt will cause the opponent to trip at higher percents but can be DI'd to make combo followups difficult potentially leading to a tech chase instead. It's dangerous to use at lower percents as your opponent can easily attack you right back with something much more fierce. It can poke under shields when small enough.
- u-tilt. This is used for KOing off the top of the stage and for blocking attacks from above where Up-Smash isn't desirable. Her arm has intangibility so it can block attacks from above that beat out Up-Smash. It can also hit directly in front of her and behind her. However, once started it takes awhile to finish so opponents from above have the option of baiting it out and then punishing accordingly.
- neutral air. This is a continuous attack that is mostly used as a more reliable followup out of her f-tilt than her other aerials as it is more easy to land. It has very limited combo followups, most of which are percentage and character dependent. It is very hard to DI out of it, but as followups are limited/non-existant it is pretty balanced. It is also a good option to use when tech chasing an opponent up on platforms.
- Lightning Kicks (fair & bair). This is perhaps what Zelda is most famous for. They have three types of hits which are a fusion of Brawl and Melee. First there is the flub. At lower percentages this allows the opponent to attack Zelda back. At higher percentages she may be able to follow up with another one. Second she has a melee sized hitbox that can potentially combo at lower percentages if the opponent really screws up their DI. Finally there is the critical lightning kick which has a much smaller hit box and does the most damage/knockback. These take quite a lot of precision and perfect spacing to land, and as all of Zelda's combos are heavily influenced by the opponent's DI it makes it that much harder to pull off. There are also slight differences in the damage between each corresponding version of fair & bair as well as knockback and angles which will not be covered here. Bair comes out slightly faster than fair. Here's how the types of kicks work. Any part of the hitbox that is within Zelda's body will result in the flub. The next available type of hit traveling away from the flub is the critical lightning kick. It is approximately right at the toe and must make contact perfectly right on the first frame it comes out. Finally, the regular lightning kick extends the furthest away past the critical lightning kick sweet spot. From a strategy stand point, this means at lower percents it is probably better to space for the regular kick as if you go in for the critical and get too close the flub will result. This means you can immediately be punished. Flubs become more useful at higher percents as you can chain them together and then finish with the critical lightning kick.
- Uair. This move has a nice disjointed hitbox but takes a bit to start up and has a lot of end lag. It can be baited and punished without great difficulty. This move can also be chained together a couple times depending on the character and whether or not it hits with its sweet spot.
- Dair. Dair is a meteor smash that is only reliably used on opponents who are recovering or punished during some action such as a roll. It also uses a sweet/sour spot system. As with many meteors it has a slower start up and long end lag. Even when recovering, the Zelda has to make a pretty hard read to land it if the character as any sort of recovery game. Even just varying the falling speed is likely enough to throw her off.
- grabs/throws. NONE* of Zelda's throws lead to a guaranteed combo if the opponent DIs properly (barring the use of Din's). Her grabs do have good range and can reach very slightly behind her, but they are very slow. Her throw that has the best combo potential, d-throw, is the slowest of all of them and can easily be DI'd on reaction. If you are really good with reaction time you can DI all of them on reaction. B-throw is a kill throw but again with DI you potentially save that stock for quite awhile. It is a great setup for Zelda's Din's game. *There are actually a few exceptions to this statement such as up-throw on the spacies.
- taunts. Both her side taunt and up taunt have hitboxes but as you can imagine that being taunts they have a very late start up and extremely limited uses. Watch out for the flame and sparkles lol (I consider it mostly an easter egg).
Lastly I want to thank all the developers of the PMBR for making another character viable at a competitive level. Melee was great, but the main problem was that the entire game was dominated by arguably four to five characters at most which isn't so good for a game that has 25/26 characters. With Project M we have an even larger roster now. I think you have a great character on your hands, and that simply time is needed before any major buff/nerfs would need to be considered. Keep up the good work!
Last edited: