Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[WhiteCrow]

Dear lord the Bowser machup feels stacked. I critical sweet spotted a crouching Bowser at 110% last night at a tournament and got forward tilt punished because I was still in the hit stun of my own move. Sheesh. It's so hard to break Bowser's crouch cancel with Zelda. He can armor through nair, crouch cancel crit kicks and all smash attacks, can crawl through Din's and Nayru's and his dash attack can armor through ours and KO at high percent. Has anyone fought a super defensive Bowser?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Dear lord the Bowser machup feels stacked. I critical sweet spotted a crouching Bowser at 110% last night at a tournament and got forward tilt punished because I was still in the hit stun of my own move. Sheesh. It's so hard to break Bowser's crouch cancel with Zelda. He can armor through nair, crouch cancel crit kicks and all smash attacks, can crawl through Din's and Nayru's and his dash attack can armor through ours and KO at high percent. Has anyone fought a super defensive Bowser?

I would LOVE to fight a super defensive Bowser. You can just Din's for days, forcing him to approach. Zelda definitely wins the MU, but that CC of his is godlike. Just go for more grabs...and Din's

 

[WhiteCrow]

Just go for more grabs...and Din's

The grabs I can understand it's the Din's I don't see being useful. He can just crouch through them and down tilt you or use his nair to power through them and you. The armor from nair can even absorb a sweet spotted kick (but not the critical sweet spot I think)

 

[Kaeldiar]

The grabs I can understand it's the Din's I don't see being useful. He can just crouch through them and down tilt you or use his nair to power through them and you. The armor from nair can even absorb a sweet spotted kick (but not the critical sweet spot I think)

Then punish him after he nairs through the Din's. Bowser has lots of end lag on on his moves, and he HAS to get rid of those Din's somehow. He'll either constantly be eating damage, or he'll commit to getting rid of them. Either way, that's in your benefit

 

[ECHOnce]

Don't have much experience with Bowser, but the one time I played a decent one I got wrecked. It's easy to combo him with his huge body, but if you mess up and dont play defensively it's kind of scary lol. Bowser's Up-B OOS is pretty effective for knocking you up for juggles. I think it either eats up or clangs with Dins, so it's a good approach option for him to punish you if you're laying dins in range (which is pretty far). He can also JC his Down-B into aerials, so laying Dins is definitely not an option from considerably high up (I think it reaches past Battlefields 2nd platform level?).

 

[Kaeldiar]

My write-up against Link from the video discussion page

Against Link, in no particular order:
1. Approach with f-air and LC Nayru's. It's weird, but f-air is actually a REALLY good approach against him.
2. DI his d-throw behind him.
3. If you want to reflect the boomerang, do so with an LC Nayru's or do it as it comes BACK to Link. It won't change the trajectory, but it will change ownership of the projectile
3. Don't reflect the bombs, not worth it
4. Use Din's appropriately. Link barrels through them without much problem (including even his n-air), so one stray mine won't do a lot.
5. Overall, Nayru is an effective tool against him
6. Shield-grab if he starts n-airplaning
7. Remember that your u-air beats his d-air
8. Do NOT use din's during recovery, you'll get arrowed

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Some one explain Zelda vs Ganon.

@ShadowGanon Talk with us about the Ganon MU. What do you like the most when dealing with Zeldas and what can you deal with the worst?

Oh lol. I've been doing that for a while. But I discovered it by accident due to panicked button mashing. I never knew it had a fancy name.

lol

WARNING: Shameless pedaling

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Dear lord the Bowser machup feels stacked. I critical sweet spotted a crouching Bowser at 110% last night at a tournament and got forward tilt punished because I was still in the hit stun of my own move. Sheesh. It's so hard to break Bowser's crouch cancel with Zelda. He can armor through nair, crouch cancel crit kicks and all smash attacks, can crawl through Din's and Nayru's and his dash attack can armor through ours and KO at high percent. Has anyone fought a super defensive Bowser?

Lol yes!!! In my opinion this is Sheilda's best MU! Use grab combos early on (and Zelda's pillar on him) to rack up damage. Once he is at a worthwhile percent, use dins and place them on top of him and you can set up the sickest juggles!

Punish his up-b OoS with fair/bair
DO NOT USE NAYRU'S EXCEPT OoS
Teledashing is not worth it at low percents against a campy Bowser
Switching to Sheik is okay as long as you use grab combos instead of tilts
Turnaround f-smash is your best friend.

Sorry for the Double Post.

 

[mtmaster]

@ShadowGanon Talk with us about the Ganon MU. What do you like the most when dealing with Zeldas and what can you deal with the worst?

lol

WARNING: Shameless pedaling

Just curious, but what is teledashing and how do you do it lol. I use Zelda on occasion but I have no idea how to do this if I am not doing it already (I tend to do a lot of things without realizing I'm doing it).

 

[Kaeldiar]

Just curious, but what is teledashing and how do you do it lol. I use Zelda on occasion but I have no idea how to do this if I am not doing it already (I tend to do a lot of things without realizing I'm doing it).

"Teledashing" is when you wavedash out of your teleport. If you use Farore's Wind from the ground, then you can stop it at any point by air dodging. If you do this close to the ground, that means you can wavedash! It's a really good movement option, but it has a fair amount of startup, so you normally want some distance when you try to use it.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Just curious, but what is teledashing and how do you do it lol. I use Zelda on occasion but I have no idea how to do this if I am not doing it already (I tend to do a lot of things without realizing I'm doing it).

Watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p1nUpjAZv0

 

[Kaeldiar]

Watch the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p1nUpjAZv0

There's no need to watch a 19 minute video for something that takes 10 seconds to explain

 

[Lil Puddin]

@ DarkStarStorm
Do you use nyaru's love to help shift your momentum?

As a side note for countering Ganon and Bowser, both matches favor them. I'd say 45:55 for both unless it's online then it's more like 35:65 for ZvB in my delayed case. sadlolgoeshere

As far as Ganon is concerned, he can easily hit you with his "sweetspots" while outranging you. Zelda is floaty but her second jump doesn't go far enough to escape Ganon's ridonk aerials. Your best bet is to tele to close gaps or flee, bait side or down b so you can use aerials, or position yourself for a safe counter. Dins only work for edge guarding or place them on the ground. A skilled Ganon will mostly use your own Dins to trick you. IE: ono look Zelda your Din hit me omg so much hitstun! lol jk here eat a downB, Dair, Fair, or Bair. Zelda is fast, but Ganon has longer reach and stronger hits that are easier to aim. Also, all ground approaches can be shut down with downB or sideB unless you use nyaru's love properly.

Bowser hurts. Play defensively and spam Dins 2 at or above face level, 1 at foot level until he wises up. His UpB will be used a lot and it sends you very high at low percents. Being close to him is dangerous unless it's a surprise rush. Also your killing options all have a risk except for grabbing. Do not leave the ground at all costs. Stay on the main stage unless you are absolutely sure you can bait and retaliate from a platform. He can quickly ascend and send you flying to your death at medium %s. Try to throw him off the stage to rack up damage since he can't spam upB which is his BnB combo/killer starter. DO NOT LEAVE THE MAIN STAGE unless you are absolutely sure you can handle the impending aerial or upB.

Both of them can kill you before 80%. They can kill you within 5 moves. Play smart and defensively. They are big targets, but don't fish for kicks. Never try random Dairs and never be above them. Land one precise kick and follow up accordingly. Which usually means go on the defense and set up Dins.

But this is probably stuff everyone knows. :C
Welp, yay free post!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

There's no need to watch a 19 minute video for something that takes 10 seconds to explain

You can know what something is, and how to perform it: but should you want to know more than seeing it is equally helpful.

@ DarkStarStorm
Do you use nyaru's love to help shift your momentum?

As a side note for countering Ganon and Bowser, both matches favor them. I'd say 45:55 for both unless it's online then it's more like 35:65 for ZvB in my delayed case. sadlolgoeshere

As far as Ganon is concerned, he can easily hit you with his "sweetspots" while outranging you. Zelda is floaty but her second jump doesn't go far enough to escape Ganon's ridonk aerials. Your best bet is to tele to close gaps or flee, bait side or down b so you can use aerials, or position yourself for a safe counter. Dins only work for edge guarding or place them on the ground. A skilled Ganon will mostly use your own Dins to trick you. IE: ono look Zelda your Din hit me omg so much hitstun! lol jk here eat a downB, Dair, Fair, or Bair. Zelda is fast, but Ganon has longer reach and stronger hits that are easier to aim. Also, all ground approaches can be shut down with downB or sideB unless you use nyaru's love properly.

Bowser hurts. Play defensively and spam Dins 2 at or above face level, 1 at foot level until he wises up. His UpB will be used a lot and it sends you very high at low percents. Being close to him is dangerous unless it's a surprise rush. Also your killing options all have a risk except for grabbing. Do not leave the ground at all costs. Stay on the main stage unless you are absolutely sure you can bait and retaliate from a platform. He can quickly ascend and send you flying to your death at medium %s. Try to throw him off the stage to rack up damage since he can't spam upB which is his BnB combo/killer starter. DO NOT LEAVE THE MAIN STAGE unless you are absolutely sure you can handle the impending aerial or upB.

Both of them can kill you before 80%. They can kill you within 5 moves. Play smart and defensively. They are big targets, but don't fish for kicks. Never try random Dairs and never be above them. Land one precise kick and follow up accordingly. Which usually means go on the defense and set up Dins.

But this is probably stuff everyone knows. :C
Welp, yay free post!

Yes I do. Nayru's Love has amazing wavebounces and they can make or break recovery.

So the Ganon MU is counteroffensive...
I fight a Ganon more than I do any other match-up, and I know that getting around the Arty Vortex is one of the hardest things about the MU. With it Ganon can push you into positions that I cannot escape from, and I cannot prevent. I need help with how to work past this auto-canceled cascade!

 

[Pitbuller26]

Bowser vs. Zelda is easily Zelda's favor. I believe Zelda stomps big bodies (D3, DK, Bowser, Charizard (somewhat)) and Bowser is the biggest of the big bodies. As Zelda, you should make Bowser fear you, not the other way around. Bowser has very few things to actually stop Zelda from doing whatever she wants besides having armor.

Playing lame will win this matchup for you since Bowser's movement options suck. Dins and run, dins and follow up, Dins and grabs will win this matchup. Basically, don't be afraid of Bowser and just abuse that big body of his.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Charizard (somewhat)

Yeah, Charizard is trickier because he has some pretty big disjoint and finishes easily off the top of the stage. Charizard is sort of the exception to the rule that Zelda bodies the big guys. That one is a little bit harder

 

[WhiteCrow]

Charizard is sort of the exception to the rule that Zelda bodies the big guys. That one is a little bit harder

Yet again the Zelda's can't agree among themselves. I have way less trouble with Charizard than I do with Bowser or D3. After shielding his nair we get lots of guaranteed punishes, he's floaty enough to get solid KO's with up tilit and back throw, his glide is easier to edge guard with Din's, and we can trade LK's with a lot of his attacks because his hurt box sticks out like a sore thumb. You do make a good point about him being able to KO Zelda off the top easily.

EDIT: KO note.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Yet again the Zelda's can't agree among themselves. I have way less trouble with Charizard than I do with Bowser or D3. After shielding his nair we get lots of guaranteed punishes, he's floaty enough to get solid KO's with up tilit and back throw, his glide is easier to edge guard with Din's, and we can trade LK's with a lot of his attacks because his hurt box sticks out like a sore thumb. You do make a good point about him being able to KO Zelda off the top easily.

EDIT: KO note.

The thing about Charizard is: his movement is more akin to Falcon or Marth than that of his weight class. Also his aerial game is very good. Zeldas tend to have trouble reckoning with those traits, they feel like they can finesse through it like with all of the heavies, but they have to use a different playstyle with Zard.

Dins can be harder to place because of his movement, he can and WILL use your vulnerability to his advantage. Also, Teledashing must be used to set things back to neutral rather than to outmaneuver him. That being said, your OoS game is far better than his, and you should be able (like you said) punish his approach moves: nair, bair, with Up-smash, Up-b, or Nayru's (into dins) OoS.

This MU is played a little more like the Falcon/Marth MU: and that is, retreat and cause them to overextend.


Note:
This isn't related to this particular MU but to all of Zelda's Matchups: Don't make a solid wall of dins, it's like trying to stop a water spout with your hands: the pressure will make the water shoot out in a place that you don't expect. Instead, leave them an out. Then you know where they're going to go, and you can control their out better than if they had none.

 

[Pitbuller26]

To the poster who asked about the Zelda vs. Diddy matchup, I can provide some insight in that matchup, especially Diddy as my main PM practice is a Diddy player.

Against Diddy
First thing, learn how the Diddy player opens up a the round. Does he/she retreat and pull out a banana or try to rush you down?

-In the first scenario, you're free to Din's Fire with no problem getting punished. Ideally you want to put the Din's on top of the banana or somewhere Diddy will be.

-In the second scenario this is where Zelda's "get off me" options shine. Zelda's tilts also do a surprisingly good job at fighting Diddy near close quarters. Max range ftilt and dtilts are hard for Diddy to punish and gives you breathing room. It's essentially playing footsies since going in the air against grounded Diddy is plain stupid.

The fun part about Diddy: Killing him. Zelda has many options to kill Diddy thanks to his lightweight and fast fallspeed. The easiest way I've learned is to get the grab around 60%~80% and go for an up throw. You're basically guaranteed a sweetspot lightning kick or a nice up air.

Dealing with Banana's depends entirely on your item game. If you have a good item game, the bananas aren't going to do much against Zelda. Her shield is good and she's skinny. If your item game is good, you can actually just make this match a living nightmare for Diddy. Try being on one side of the stage while Zelda has a wall of Din's and has control of the bananas on the other side of the stage.

Diddy's recovery: DON"T CHALLENGE IT. Unless you know the player overshot the distance, you will trade all day everyday and the trade will not work in your favor. Instead, respect it and just place Din's on the and around the ledge. That way Diddy will take damage constantly and you're safe.

The worst things to get hit by in Diddy's moveset: Nair and Fair. Nair juggles Zelda for free and fair just kills Zelda. Avoid getting caught by those two moves at all costs. His dash attack is annoying but you have to let that rock.

Other than that Diddy vs. Zelda is a match Zelda should play at her pace. I personally believe this matchup is slightly in Zelda's favor because we kill Diddy so much easier than he kills Zelda.

 

[Kaeldiar]

One thing I have picked up in my limited experience against Diddy's is Zelda's ENORMOUS AGT. If you don't know how to AGT, look it up. The Toon Link boards are full of it, I'm sure. Anyway, Zelda gains a ridiculous amount of vertical height with her AGT, which means that if Diddy tries to get fancy and throw a banana at you (or if you have one in hand when you get knocked off), you have something to boost Zelda's already nice recovery. If he throws the banana at you, you can air dodge to catch the banana and immediately throw it to AGT. The timing takes a little practice, but isn't too hard.

 

[flying_tortoise]

@internetmovieguy
So I say Sonic is great against a zelda who doesn't know the MU.
But also as someone very experienced in the MU the match can go in either player's favor.

Sonic has a lot of speed and can make zelda whiff easily, which allows for great punished.
He can punish....
Missed Nayru
Missed Ftilt
Din fire start up
Teleporting too close to sonic either in the beginning or at the end if she doesn't cancel it (great amnt of lag)
Even a jab
He can also juggle zelda easily (Zelda is the weakest in the air) The only thing zelda can do is use dins while in the air to slowly get out of the way of his U-air but very few zeldas know this. I'm assuming because I only figured it out, out of desperation.

However Sonic can be predictable when it comes to recovering or approaching and so it is your job to mix it up and don't let zelda figure out your habbits (Make sure to know ALL the ways Sonic can recover). When I lose to Sonic's it is because I can not figure out his patterns in time.

It's a spacing battle for sure.
When the dins are out, zelda wants you to approach but don't do it.
Sometimes you can run in, but don't run into a nayru
Most times just wait for dins to explode (the zelda will then start to approach you which should be fine, you should have the better advantage).

 

[M@v]

Oh, I should probably ask this, because he gave me a LOT of trouble at CEO back in June.

Fireballs Mario. What dooooooooo.
From my experiences/research seems sheik is the best option. MK gets utterly wrecked by Mario (None of his moves straight up beat fireballs LOL). Zelda it just feels I like get out camped, then I'm always forced to approach even when I have a lead sometimes. I've picked up mario since CEO as one of my characters, but I likely am not going to be beating any really good ones in dittos anytime soon.

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

I posted this in the Zelda Social Thread, but I hope it's okay if I post this here too, as it's more relevant in this thread:

If I may be so bold in asking the current 3.5 Zelda playtesters and the PMBR: Why Zhime, one of the best PM Zelda players, and a previous PM Back Roomer who helped design Zelda, is not on board with the changes that are supposedly coming for 3.5 Zelda? What's more sad is that it doesn't look like he has any intention on playing PM once 3.5 is released for reasons I cannot say, or do not know.

 

[WhiteCrow]

If I may be so bold in asking the current 3.5 Zelda playtesters and the PMBR: Why Zhime, one of the best PM Zelda players, and a previous PM Back Roomer who helped design Zelda, is not on board with the changes that are supposedly coming for 3.5 Zelda? What's more sad is that it doesn't look like he has any intention on playing PM once 3.5 is released for reasons I cannot say, or do not know.

This is really more of a match up discussion thread now so it really isn't relevant. That aside, none of us here are part of the PMBR, so none of us can give 100% answers or confirm anything. You'd have better luck straight up private messaging one of the PMBR members or Zhime himself.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I posted this in the Zelda Social Thread, but I hope it's okay if I post this here too, as it's more relevant in this thread:

If I may be so bold in asking the current 3.5 Zelda playtesters and the PMBR: Why Zhime, one of the best PM Zelda players, and a previous PM Back Roomer who helped design Zelda, is not on board with the changes that are supposedly coming for 3.5 Zelda? What's more sad is that it doesn't look like he has any intention on playing PM once 3.5 is released for reasons I cannot say, or do not know.

In short, it's because Zhime did not like the changes that the PMBR wanted to make to Zelda. He didn't like the direction they were taking her. His vision of what PM 3.5 should be is very different from the PMBR's vision. When 3.5 actually comes out, I'll let you decide who you think was right or wrong. There is a great amount of speculation and rumor about what will or won't be in 3.5, so we just need to make our stances clear on what is or isn't good for Zelda/PM. With any luck, the community can influence the PMBR so that they create the kind of game that we want.

 

[PoTheDragonSlayer]

In short, it's because Zhime did not like the changes that the PMBR wanted to make to Zelda. He didn't like the direction they were taking her. His vision of what PM 3.5 should be is very different from the PMBR's vision. When 3.5 actually comes out, I'll let you decide who you think was right or wrong. There is a great amount of speculation and rumor about what will or won't be in 3.5, so we just need to make our stances clear on what is or isn't good for Zelda/PM. With any luck, the community can influence the PMBR so that they create the kind of game that we want.

That's a good answer. Thank you for this.

 

[Kaoak]

This has probably been said a million times before, but Zelda's ability to camp and punish hard is unparalleled. She isn't forced to approach or commit to anything against most characters, such as Marth, and forces you to play a very campy game where both of you are just trying to space and get the odd hit in. Zelda certainly isn't fun to play against, her dash attack also isn't mentioned in this list (and we thought Peach had a strong dash attack). It feels like she just has too many strong options to punish me, and as a Marth player as soon as I get in range to tipper one of my attacks, she's in range to lightning kick me, forcing me to take horrible trades. Her abilities don't have extreme amounts of landing lag, her grab game is very strong, with her down throw dealing a whopping 15% and leading to easy followups including chain-throws.

She might be balanced but she's just not fun to play against her. It feels like the game devolves to seeing who can hold back the most and not do anything for the longest, because her punish game is just THAT good. Some of the defensive characters in this game (ie. Link and Zelda) are mainly strong just because they're obnoxious to play against, and at local tournaments where I live, the scene has devolved to half of the players being either a Link or Zelda main (OR BOTH).

 

[WhiteCrow]

Glad to see you're interested in a constructive discussion, but I think you'd be more successful posting here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-zelda-megadump-thread.353209/

 

[ECHOnce]

This has probably been said a million times before, but Zelda's ability to camp and punish hard is unparalleled. She isn't forced to approach or commit to anything against most characters, such as Marth, and forces you to play a very campy game where both of you are just trying to space and get the odd hit in. Zelda certainly isn't fun to play against, her dash attack also isn't mentioned in this list (and we thought Peach had a strong dash attack). It feels like she just has too many strong options to punish me, and as a Marth player as soon as I get in range to tipper one of my attacks, she's in range to lightning kick me, forcing me to take horrible trades. Her abilities don't have extreme amounts of landing lag, her grab game is very strong, with her down throw dealing a whopping 15% and leading to easy followups including chain-throws.

She might be balanced but she's just not fun to play against her. It feels like the game devolves to seeing who can hold back the most and not do anything for the longest, because her punish game is just THAT good. Some of the defensive characters in this game (ie. Link and Zelda) are mainly strong just because they're obnoxious to play against, and at local tournaments where I live, the scene has devolved to half of the players being either a Link or Zelda main (OR BOTH).

Check earlier pages of this MU thread and find posts on the Marth MU; its a close-ish MU, but it definitely leans towards favoring Marth, if you take the time to actually learn Zeldas strengths/weaknesses. Marth can punish Zelda hard, he excels in juggling (her biggest weakness), and can eliminate most of her options fairly easily when up close. When further away, all she has on you is teledashing and dins. Marth has the easiest time out of any char getting rid of Din's, and just punish teledashes by learning the Zelda's patterns and N-airing/F-tilting/D-tilting/Jabbing/F-smashing/grabbing.

 

[4tlas]

Ok guys, what do you do when you can't use dins at all? Like not even "they clank with Mario fireballs so its a losing battle" can't use, I'm talking about "Bucket OHKO" levels of pain. (Oh and PK Fire ignites on dins...)

The best I've been able to do is set one vaguely near me and bait G&W into trying to absorb it, then landing a LK. Unfortunately he usually still gets the dins because I have to wait until he commits to punish him, so I still end up with a lot of pain later...and he just goes around me with upB. Oh time to puni-oh goddamit hes up there again, with this stupid huge disjointed dair. What do?

 

[Geth Drips]

I tend to use din's as more of a combo extender as opposed to going for more "standard" setups in the G&W MU. Typically, I'll only use them while G&W is in hitstun. I personally just get punished too much for leaving dins around, and even if I do manage to punish G&W for bucketing a DF, I'd rather just not give him the opportunity in the first place. Instead, I suppose I just look for more things like, f-tilt->u-smash->LK set-ups (for example). It's a bit of a game plan change compared to fighting the rest of the cast, in my experience at least, but I don't think the MU is any less winnable because of it.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Ok guys, what do you do when you can't use dins at all? Like not even "they clank with Mario fireballs so its a losing battle" can't use, I'm talking about "Bucket OHKO" levels of pain. (Oh and PK Fire ignites on dins...)

The best I've been able to do is set one vaguely near me and bait G&W into trying to absorb it, then landing a LK. Unfortunately he usually still gets the dins because I have to wait until he commits to punish him, so I still end up with a lot of pain later...and he just goes around me with upB. Oh time to puni-oh goddamit hes up there again, with this stupid huge disjointed dair. What do?

If you know your Din's are being/about to be disarmed you need to treat each situation differently, there isn't a catch all answer.

Against Mario fireballs: I like to set my mines at ground level and cover them with land cancelled Nayru's Love and the wave bounced/b-reversed versions. The ground placement is to cover wave dashes in and low fireball approaches. It's not something you want to do for the entire match because your opponent will adapt and change up their fireball timing or cape the reflected fireballs, but it can net you a reflected fireball and keep your placement all at the same time. Remember that Mario is pretty floaty, so placing mines directly on top of him at mid to high percents can lead to kill move confirms. Moral of the story, in neutral and in most situations, Mario's fireballs are better. They beat are traps in a third of the time it takes for us to set ours, and his lead to grabs on shield and combos on hit. If you know he's going to disarm one of your mines then punish him for hit. He's taking the effort to drop his positioning or a combo or an edge guard to remove it, so abuse that wasted time.

Against Game and Watch bacon and bucket: You can't really rely on Din's at full screen unless G&W is in hitstun. It's seriously frustrating how many tools he as to remove Din's. All of his disjointed tilts and aerials? Random bacon? Bucket? Din's work as a decent "projectile" in this match up since, like with Mario, if you plant a Din right on him he can get popped up for a finisher. You also have other tools for this match up, like down tilt>up tilt, low angled f tilt>up air, and back throw as a kill option. Din's just don't really come into play in this match up. You can bait him to bucket them and then punish his few frames of vulnerability but you're still playing "his" game. B-reversed land cancelled Nayru's help a lot with bacon, but again, use with caution.

Against Ness PK fire and PSI magnet: I treat this similarly to Mario with the exception that you won't be getting a lot from reflected PK fires. You can actually hold your own at full screen by setting Din's near yourself for protection. If you notice your opponent likes to approach with PSI magnet then put Din's there for him to gobble up; the freeze frames are easier to punish than with G&W. Din's can be really helpful for edge guarding Ness since their active hit boxes can eat his slow double jump (and PK thunder!).

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

This may seem like a weird question, but at this point, I am fine playing against Zelda. My question is, is there anyway to play against her that is more exciting to watch? I swear every time I play against her it is always like a chess match where I have three queens (in my favor). It is getting to the point to where I am boring myself out of the match, and since this matchup is going to keep happening, I wanted to know if there are safer approach options I could be utilizing without setting myself up for heavy punishes. Would like to be more fun to watch while showing off flashy tech, but punish game is not her weakness so it leads to 6minute matches where she can't force me to approach and a ton of neutral spacing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HUiyF_J1Xgg

 

[flying_tortoise]

This may seem like a weird question, but at this point, I am fine playing against Zelda. My question is, is there anyway to play against her that is more exciting to watch? I swear every time I play against her it is always like a chess match where I have three queens (in my favor). It is getting to the point to where I am boring myself out of the match, and since this matchup is going to keep happening, I wanted to know if there are safer approach options I could be utilizing without setting myself up for heavy punishes. Would like to be more fun to watch while showing off flashy tech, but punish game is not her weakness so it leads to 6minute matches where she can't force me to approach and a ton of neutral spacing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HUiyF_J1Xgg

Well unfortunately zelda is a floaty character and like all floaties: Peach, Jigglypuff (melee high tiers) There are no awesome combos like you can do against fox, c. falcon, etc. That's just how it goes.
Although you did have some great, creative strings.
Yes, and spacing is crucial against good players and all characters you play against. Its just when you play against fox, when you finally do get the advantage you can put together more hits....thereby more satisfying.

Endlag
Zelda however has a lot of moves that have quite a bit of endlag but it seems that you don't seem to know just how far she can reach because you are giving her waaay too much space. So you aren't punishing her moves when she whiffs (which for me is my worst nightmare, and can make me feel like I helpless because I keep getting baited).

Spacing
Also when you give her space and she is going to pull out her dins. You yourself as a diddy main know that if your opponent gives you space, then you would be more than happy to pull out your bananas because it gives you advantage (same mind set with zelda). Then you have to deal with the dins and it mentally feels like the game has gotten longer.

Mixup
Lastly, when you are far away from zelda don't throw your bananas, because it's easy for her to react to it with a nayru (blue diamond reflector thing). If you know it, Disqo uses AGT to throw his bananas to the ground, picks em up, repeats, to keep the opponent guessing as to when exactly is he going to throw them (even still, he isn't that far away from his opponent).

Sorry if too long, but I think it's good advice

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I take all helpful advice. And it is good advice. This Zelda is an es training partner and as such I play against him a lot. At this point, this is like my 11th run in with Zelda in tourney and it feels so borderline free (only cause I team with a Zelda and train vs one on a regular basis.) The real issue is I am bored of the matchup, to the point of losing focus and getting sloppy. I want to be more entertaining and be able to watch matches and go that was neat, but Diddy played campy just shuts down all her options IMO, and I have no reason to approach her punish game because I can always out zone her.

Was wondering if there was a different style of play I could use to make the match more fun for both players involved. I saw a diddy playing against a Zelda, and thought of incorporating some stuff, but a lot of stuff he did left him too open for punish, and I didn't want to lower my chances of winning, while changing play style. (i take enough reckless risk with up b) Guess I just was too picky and wasn't meant to enjoy the super campy matchup. May bring back footstools.

 

[jtm94]

@ Searing_Sorrow
Alright so I watched the first 2 games in what you posted.
There's not a ton you can do to make the MU more exciting because that is the nature of Zelda. A lot of people also don't find Diddy to be exciting either so not many people enjoy watching it by default. There are a few things you can do to make the match go faster. The way you played Zelda's next to last stock game 2 was perfect. You were fast with items, capitalized into your KO move or just small combo strings. Zelda is floaty so traditional combos do not work, but you can however hit confirm off of your items and you did this well for the most part. The issues you were having from what I saw were that sometimes you wouldn't react to the HIT of the item, but would instead throw it and go in boldly. I saw Zelda start to Nayrus but you continued into it and got hit by your own banana. This happened a few times. You have solid item play, but you need to be ready for item counterplay. If you can throw the banana and she reflects it and you regrab it you will be in a completely ADVANTAGED position given she reflected with grounded Nayru's because it is significantly slower than aerial land-cancelled Nayru's. Another point, you respect her grounded moves FAR too much. She was spacing Fsmash at the edge terrible and you would recover while she was still charging and you had plenty of time to dair her into fair in the endlag. Start running towards her with item in hand as if you are going to throw it, bait the Nayru's then run in and grab/whatever. Dair can be really good against Zelda. You can't hit confirm AS easily against her floatiness, but dair can still pop her up for a strong fair. Nayru's is also near completely vulnerable from the top and bottom so while the animation is still going on don't be afraid to hit her.

As for camping her you have the right idea. Just as Melee Zelda folds to camping so does PM Zelda. Zelda NEEDS to interact with her opponent's via unfavorable trades and the less you let that interaction happen the better you will do. Dins does nothing while onstage and if you have banana in hand you can either defuse it or immediately punish her from across stage. Nair eats dins if you find yourself cornered, but don't respect them to the point where you go out of the way to get rid of them all. I think you did good in that aspect.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Thanks, will focus m.u around naryu more, and may use item play tricks in more than dittos, its just kind of dangerous vs other good item players like player -1 and player 3, so I don't abuse it as much as I should.

As for diddy being annoying, had to play player-1 afterwards. I was thinking wow this s is annoying and f misfire. Even when i play Zelda dittos they were not that annoying. Thankfully d.I chain throw works on diddy so no 6 minute matches.