Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[the_irish_dude]

oh i know how it goes. lol trust me

 

[Deviljho]

Lol. What happens most of the time:

People complain about (insert Zelda move here) -> People call for nerf -> People argue whether or not it should be nerfed -> ShadowGanon quotes himself again (see earlier posts in this thread) -> People continue to argue -> People get tired of arguing and leave -> People come back and complain about different move -> go back to the beginning.

-> @ Deviljho decides to be the cool guy and focuses on getting better.

:D I'm cool! Yay!

But seriously though, I agree with ShadowGannon. Let the PMBR do their thing. No need to complain. I understand frustration, but it'll feel that much better when you beat the snot out of her when you learn the MU.

 

[Rayvelion]

Honestly, my only thought on how to balance her is to reduce how powerful the Lightning Kicks are (mostly only the Critical points, MAYBE the regular), they should be powerful, but not so powerful as to completely overshadow most of the rest of her kit. It not only does it lead to relatively boring gameplay (fishing for Fair/Bairs all game with relatively little other gameplay) it's incredibly frustrating to play against. However, just straight nerfing her Fair/Bair is obviously a terrible decision as that's one of the reasons she's sort of a "decent" character. We'd have to buff other parts of her kit/add more options so she ISN'T so reliant on the Lightning Kicks to beat the competition. I just think having so much of her kit reliant on the Lightning Kick is an oversight.

Another, probably less useful, option is to remove either the Fair or the Bair (letting the opponent's know that they only have to worry about the Kick from one direction and not if Zelda is facing OR towards them) and replace it with a useful aerial option.

 

[Deleted member]

The only major thing I believe Zelda needs is a nice boost to her movement. Slightly faster on the ground and a decent boost to her air speed. Then make her regular sweetspotted Lightning Kicks slightly stronger and the critical hits weaker (they should do, like, 2% extra damage with the BKB/KBG scaled accordingly to be the same as the regular sweetspot).

 

[Deviljho]

I'm almost am tempted to make a "Zelda Megadump" thread so people will stahp complaining on this thread... And then the Zelda mains can try and put em in their place.

 

[flying_tortoise]

well...that was supposed to be this, but ppl aren't reading so yah...lol

but the thought is nice though @ Deviljho x).
The point is that its here and the ppl actually put effort so all can learn...so if they complain they obviously don't want to put in the effort to get good.

 

[Deviljho]

well...that was supposed to be this, but ppl aren't reading so yah...lol

but the thought is nice though @ Deviljho x).
The point is that its here and the ppl actually put effort so all can learn...so if they complain they obviously don't want to put in the effort to get good.

Actually, I went ahead and made the thread. Now we can direct all of the salt there.

 

[flying_tortoise]

lolol kk EDIT: just saw the megadump thread, like it a lot lol x)
@ Deviljho I actually got beat by a yoshi last week almost every match I played against him. Was going to save a replay but messed up, haha. And I dont remember what he did. He was able to juggle me pretty well sometimes (dont remember how)

Watching your first match there were too many missed grabs. And because the lag on the missed grab is so long it is so easy to punish. Also dont let your opponent know that you are going to be grabbing so much, because if I noticed that I would quickly just dodge from shield and punish you with a lightning kick.

Some advice I received from a really good player online was to be more defensive sometimes as opposed to just running in flailing your arms hoping to get something out of it (I used to do this, still do sometimes when I get nervous).
@6:55 that was really good defensive. Zelda whiffed and as she was whiffing you jumped right above the Fsmash (great spacing) and were right in her face with a dair then you continued to the kill.

I dont play yoshi at all but I feel like you gotta know when your eggs are going to hit zelda so you can punish when she is in stun.
Sorry I couldnt remember what that one guy did, he actually frustrated me pretty good (but it seemed like he got good at knowing my tendencies and punished me hard)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Someone tell me about Zelda v Marth
Then give me some numbers like 70:30 or something

 

[jtm94]

Zelda vs Marth is not in Zelda's favor.

 

[YungPurp]

Anyone wanna clue me in about the Dedede and Olimar matchups? I know my main, Yoshi, gets wrecked by the dins and lightning kicks. I feel like Dedede's minions (side b) can walk themselves into the dins and his disjoints out-range most of Zelda's attacks, but Dedede is also a fatty and a bit sluggish on the ground so I don't know who has the advantage.

I also think that if Olimar can save up on red and/or yellow pikmin, he can pretty much plow through a lot of Zelda's fire and electric based attacks respectively. Also I'm not sure if she can handle being above people, but Olimar is really good at juggling from my experience so far.

I've fought a good Zelda in a tournament last Saturday as Roy and man it was really annoying trying to approach her. I don't know about the other matchups since he switched to Charizard as soon as I pulled out the Olimar, so something must be different about that matchup. Any tips for these matchups?

 

[jtm94]

I can't speak about Dedede much, but as both him and Olimar do NOT let Zelda to the ground. Hit her up and never let her down. Olimar's uair will KO her extremely fast on a lot of stages, especially with purple or red pikmin. Try to avoid using Olimar's fair because you have to place yourself in from of the kick. Bait out nayrus, run in with a grab, down throw, then up air away until she's done.

DDD can punish offstage teleports if she get's too close, hop off and fair her out of teleport, it hits super hard and teleport actually is pretty easy to react to.

 

[BJN39]

Someone tell me about Zelda v Marth
Then give me some numbers like 70:30 or something

Actually it seems to be like 45:55 marth's favor... At worst.

At least from recent results that I've found.

 

[onlywonderboy]

Actually it seems to be like 45:55 marth's favor... At worst.

At least from recent results that I've found.

I have problems with the match up, but that's largely because I eat to many forward smashes trying to fair. That could probably be fixed by playing alittle less aggro though.

 

[ShadowGanon]

You guys might try putting a LOT of dins on the ground when you can so he can't do all of his dash dance shenanigans. That might help.

 

[Oaty]

Recently my friend has been playing a lot of Charizard. It's not exactly a hard MU or anything like that I'm just confused because I've never faced a Charizard in my life. Do you guys know anything about this Matchup or just some general tips to play against him.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Recently my friend has been playing a lot of Charizard. It's not exactly a hard MU or anything like that I'm just confused because I've never faced a Charizard in my life. Do you guys know anything about this Matchup or just some general tips to play against him.

This is a harder MU than against most big characters, because Charizard has some massive hitboxes, and a decent amount of disjoint. Never underestimate his hitbox size or his speed. Charizard has one of the fastest running speeds, and his down-b can send him high into the air very quickly to kill you with an unexpected aerial.Stay away from his nair, and try to throw out lots of Din's if you get the chance. He's a large character, so Din's greatly inhibits his movement, and the moves he has to get rid of Din's have high endlag, so you can punish then. Your OoS game is pretty important, too. He'll have to get in close to do anything, so you can easily get OoS grabs if you play it right. Lightning Kicks are pretty easy to land against him, since his aerial movement is kind of cruddy if he isn't gliding.

 

[WhiteCrow]

You guys might try putting a LOT of dins on the ground when you can so he can't do all of his dash dance shenanigans.

I usually opt to use Din's as little as possible against Marth. His disjoints come out so fast at any angle he wants, making the traps really easy for him to disarm. They can help you screw up his recovery since, and someone should correct me if I'm wrong, Marth's aerial side b doesn't clank with Din's. He's also DI bait for throws. He's a nice weight where down throw will put him on platforms for tech chase opportunities. But yeah, Din's are dangerous against Marth. Even when you have to beware the dunk or nair.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Recently my friend has been playing a lot of Charizard. It's not exactly a hard MU or anything like that I'm just confused because I've never faced a Charizard in my life. Do you guys know anything about this Matchup or just some general tips to play against him.

All I know is that nair gave me the most trouble against charizards, but I once heard on a stream that nair has 1 hit box and because of that.... as soon as the move hits your shield you can get out of shield immediately and punish without worrying about getting hit by the rest of the move.

Haven't tried it out myself because I have been busy but that is some great info to know.
Gl

 

[Debra washingbeard]

everyone seems to be stroking zelda (shocker since this is zelda's page) but i think the overall quality of the game would benefit from a SLIGHT revamp of zelda. I have been a zelda main since the first day of 2.0. since then 5/8 people in my crew have zelda as main or secondary, some of these people before they switched mains i would consistently 3 stock. when they pick zelda the matchup is about about 50/50 if i pick shiek now(my new main now that everyone plays zelda) this is because zelda is an incredibly easy character to pick up. literally every move she has is safe, shes too floaty so combo's don't work well, she has one of the best recoveries in the game, naru is basically a get out of jail free card, and she can kill with a shiny shoe as early as 70! She also has a really deep advanced game revolving around dins combo's and teledashing. change zelda like 2.1 ike. make her a more strategic character and not someone you just chuck up her super fast, safe moves without any thought, and get rid or her stupid autocombo's. I also think zelda should get hit by her own dins.
P.S in teams last week I was recovering in a 2v1. I put a fully charged fireball under Smashville. It hit through the stage and killed both people (at 70 and 120) and I won. move is broken.

 

[Debra washingbeard]

I usually opt to use Din's as little as possible against Marth. His disjoints come out so fast at any angle he wants, making the traps really easy for him to disarm. They can help you screw up his recovery since, and someone should correct me if I'm wrong, Marth's aerial side b doesn't clank with Din's. He's also DI bait for throws. He's a nice weight where down throw will put him on platforms for tech chase opportunities. But yeah, Din's are dangerous against Marth. Even when you have to beware the dunk or nair.

There is not an aerial in the game that clanks. pay attention from now on. #priorityissues?

 

[ShadowGanon]

everyone seems to be stroking zelda (shocker since this is zelda's page) but i think the overall quality of the game would benefit from a SLIGHT revamp of zelda. I have been a zelda main since the first day of 2.0. since then 5/8 people in my crew have zelda as main or secondary, some of these people before they switched mains i would consistently 3 stock. when they pick zelda the matchup is about about 50/50 if i pick shiek now(my new main now that everyone plays zelda) this is because zelda is an incredibly easy character to pick up. literally every move she has is safe, shes too floaty so combo's don't work well, she has one of the best recoveries in the game, naru is basically a get out of jail free card, and she can kill with a shiny shoe as early as 70! She also has a really deep advanced game revolving around dins combo's and teledashing. change zelda like 2.1 ike. make her a more strategic character and not someone you just chuck up her super fast, safe moves without any thought, and get rid or her stupid autocombo's. I also think zelda should get hit by her own dins.
P.S in teams last week I was recovering in a 2v1. I put a fully charged fireball under Smashville. It hit through the stage and killed both people (at 70 and 120) and I won. move is broken.

There is not an aerial in the game that clanks. pay attention from now on. #priorityissues?

Dat Din's kill... So broken. BUT this does not belong in this thread. The Zeldas got tired of people posting their complaints here, so they made this thread for all the people that think Zelda is broken: The Zelda "Megadump" Thread.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

There is not an aerial in the game that clanks. pay attention from now on. #priorityissues?

When WhiteCrow said clanks, he means aerials that can cancel out din's. Yes, technically it's not a clank. Please be courteous. As far as Zelda herself is concerned, she is easy to pick up at a beginning and mid level but she is extremely hard to use at a high competitive level. How many Zeldas have taken a major tourney so far? There has not been one yet, the closest being Zhime at Pound 5.5. The autocombos you mentioned only exist if the opponent has no idea how to DI with the exception of spacies. With proper DI the best combo Zelda can get on the cast is 3 hits (excluding advanced Din placements) which definitely falls within the specifications for one of the goals of PM. Zelda is SUPER strategic. If she does throw out most of her moves carelessly she will get destroyed by opponents who actually learn her spacing and don't just mindlessly attack with aggression. To kill at 70 percent you have to connect with a critical super kick most likely during their recovery or out of neutral unlike Captain Falcon who can easily combo into knee which has a huge hitbox and a four frame window to hit. Nayru's does do a lot, but honestly she needs its features and when you compare it to all of the other reflectors in the game it's not unreasonable. The only get out of jail free card it has to it would be applications with love jump as for anything else the opponent should know the hole in their combo and bait it out. Even then the love jump is moving Zelda into her weakest position on the stage outside of recovering. The Din's explosion hitbox could use a readjustment to more accurately fit the fire animation. It probably wasn't the smartest idea for your friends to just ignore the fully charged mine though lol. It should only take one of those situations for them to learn as it sounds like they had not yet got a feel for Din's. As far as more people playing her, that is definitely true as she is finally viable in a smash game and easier to use at beginning to lower mid levels. People are also excited to play as her as it's ZELDA and she can actually do things now. lol Whether you see a lot of Zeldas though or not really depends on individual scenes. I'm part of a scene in New Mexico that has over 100 people now and I am the only Zelda main. This scene includes players such as Light, Twin 1, Twin A, and Dekar. I'm sure this is pretty clear by now but honestly I feel Zelda is pretty fair once you actually put the time in to learn her MU. Yes there could be a few tweaks here and there but she is far from broken, especially when compared to a lot of the things other characters can do in this game.

 

[ShadowGanon]

To clear some things up, clanking ONLY happens to grounded attacks and projectiles (with a few exceptions). It happens when two grounded attacks that are within 8% of each other overlap each other. You will hear the "clank" sound and both attack animations will cancel. If one of the grounded moves does 9% more damage or higher than the other move, it will out prioritize the other one. The lesser move will clank and the more powerful move will keep going (thus, hitting the oponent). For example, in Brawl (Generally the same in PM), if Marth's un-tipped forward smash collides with Ike's f-smash (14% vs. 22%), they will "clank" and cancel each other out. However, if Marth's un-tipped f-smash collides with Ganon's f-smash (14% vs. 24%), Ganondorf's f-smash will cancel out (out-prioritize) Marth's f-smash and hit Marth. The same rules apply when ground attack hitboxes overlap normal projectile hitboxes.

Aerial attacks, however, work differently. Aerial attacks (including most aerial specials) NEVER clank. Even when out prioritized, another move will never cancel an aerial attack animation. Aerial attack hitboxes will always pass through each other and grounded attacks. The rules of priority, though, still exist as aerial attacks can still clank projectiles (Dins count as projectiles). So, if an aerial attack does an amount of damage within 8% of the projectile (or more), then the projectile will clank/cancel (But not the aerial).

You might be thinking, "Well, surely Marth's Dancing blade does damage within 8% percent of Din's fire?" And I can tell you that it does. BUT, there is one more exception to the rules of grounded and aerial priority. It is the rule of "Transcendent Priority". If a move has "Transcendent Priority", that means that this move's hitboxes (no matter the amount of damage they do), will NEVER interact with other hitboxes, attacks, or projectiles. Marth's dancing blade has transcendent priority, thus, it passes straight through Din's Fire with out harming it.

[collapse=List of moves that have Transcendent Priority]
All the links are links to that repective character or move on Smashwiki.

The following is a list of character's attacks in Melee that contain hitboxes with transcendent priority.

• Bowser - Fire Breath, Koopa Klaw (the attack hitbox, not the grab)
• Donkey Kong - Hand Slap
• Dr. Mario - Super Sheet, Dr. Tornado (all hitboxes but the final hit)
• Falco - Blaster
• Fox - Blaster
• Ganondorf - Down air
• Ice Climbers - Blizzard
• Kirby - Hammer (grounded only), Final Cutter (projectile only), dash attack
• Link - Spin Attack, zair
• Mario - Cape, Mario Tornado, forward smash (sweetspot only)
• Marth - Shield Breaker, Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash
• Mewtwo - Disable, forward smash (sweetspot only), down smash
• Ness - PK Flash, PK Thunder (projectile only)
• Pichu - Thunder, forward smash
• Pikachu - Thunder, forward smash, down smash
• Roy - Flare Blade, Blazer
• Samus - Zair
• Young Link - Spin Attack (airborne only), zair
• Zelda - Nayru's Love, Din's Fire, Neutral attack, forward tilt, up tilt, dash attack, forward smash, down smash, neutral air, forward air, back air, up air,

The following is a list of character's attacks in Brawl that contain hitboxes with transcendent priority. Note that while there are standard aerials with transcendent priority, this only comes into effect if they collide with a projectile or one of the few attacks containing hitboxes that can collide with airborne attacks such as the Mach Tornado. This is because the hitboxes of aerials cannot collide with the hitboxes of standard ground attacks and other aerial attacks.

• Charizard - Up smash
• Diddy Kong - Dash attack
• Falco - Blaster, Reflector
• Fox - Blaster
• Ganondorf - Down air
• Ice Climbers - Squall Hammer, Blizzard
• Ike - Eruption, Aether (all but the initial hitbox), up smash, down smash, all aerials
• Ivysaur - Bullet Seed, neutral attack
• King Dedede - Jet Hammer, Super Dedede Jump, all smashes, neutral air
• Kirby - Hammer (both grounded and airborne), Final Cutter (both the sword strike and projectile)
• Link - Spin Attack (only initial hitbox)
• Lucario - Force Palm (the projectile portion), forward smash (sweetspot only)
• Lucas - PK Freeze, PSI Magnet, forward smash, down smash, neutral air, back air (sweetspot only)
• Mario - Cape, forward smash (sweetspot only)
• Marth - Shield Breaker, Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash
• Meta Knight - Dimensional Cape, Shuttle Loop, all standard attacks except dash attack and glide attack
• Mr. Game & Watch - Chef (frying pan only, not the projectiles)
• Ness - PK Flash, dash attack
• Peach - Up smash (sourspot only), Up tilt
• Olimar - Down smash (sweetspot only)
• Pikachu - Thunder, neutral attack, down smash, forward smash (sweetspot only)
• R.O.B. - Robo Beam, Arm Rotor
• Sheik - Needle Storm, Chain, Vanish
• Snake - Forward smash
• Squirtle - Up smash
• Sonic - Neutral air
• Toon Link - Spin Attack
• Wario - Wario Waft, down air (final hit only), Forward Smash
• Wolf - Blaster
• Zelda - Nayru's Love, Farore's Wind, neutral attack, forward tilt, up tilt, dash attack, forward smash, up smash (all but the final hitbox), neutral air, up air
• Zero Suit Samus - Dash attack, down smash

That I know of, there are no lists of characters moves that are transcendent for PM. Otherwise, I would have use it instead.[/collapse]

That was a lot of writing. I hope it was helpful.

 

[TimeSmash]

So, what is the term term for when two aerials are used, and both people take knockback and damage? I don't want to use the wrong terminology (thanks biology).

 

[ShadowGanon]

So, what is the term term for when two aerials are used, and both people take knockback and damage? I don't want to use the wrong terminology (thanks biology).

That would be a "trade".

 

[TimeSmash]

That would be a "trade".

Welp, maybe I have been using that actually haha. But thank you nonetheless!

 

[WhiteCrow]

There is not an aerial in the game that clanks. pay attention from now on. #priorityissues?

I s'pose I was using the wrong term, thanks for pointing it out. I just couldn't think of another way of saying "disarm" since I'd I already said that, so I used "clank" to help convey the situation I was referring to. It would have been helpful if you could have confirmed/corrected me on what I was actually talking about, whether or not Marth's side b in the air can remove Din's, so I'll just test it myself. Thanks for being constructive, I'll make sure to pay more attention.

 

[WhiteCrow]

P.S in teams last week I was recovering in a 2v1. I put a fully charged fireball under Smashville. It hit through the stage and killed both people (at 70 and 120) and I won. move is broken.

Even though people have already re-directed this to to the mega-dump thread I couldn't help noticing this last part. If two players edge guarding you let you get a full level Din in place, without jumping out to punish you, and then died to it's 3 second timer explosion... wow. They obviously didn't know the match up, or how Din's operated, or, unless the 70% player was Jigs or a floatie, how to DI. No offense to your opponents, but that's like jumping into Fox's fully charged up-smash at kill percent and complaining it's broken.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Aerial hitboxes will not clank with grounded/aerial hitboxes, but projectiles are a different story. If my memory is anything to go off of, aerials do in fact "clank" with projectiles, it's just that the animation isn't interrupted (pretty sure the hitbox that actually collided with the projectile gets canceled out, too). This is completely independent of damage percents.
Truthfully its mostly semantics. Acquire sword/other disjoint (preferably sword), hit Din's, wonder why they even exist unless you get into an icky knockdown situation because I swear that totally wasn't there before. No theory necessary.
Also, though, for something that's commonly used near the top of the screen, its difficult to deny that Din's kills extremely early from stage-level. Look at Fox's uair, it already kills at early percents from the stage, and after an uthrow or another uair it only gets more ridiculous. Apart from the deceptive range Din's is easy to dodge, though, I agree with that.
Speaking of Fox, usmash is kinda broken, or at least not the best analogy in this case.

Bottom line is that "clanking" is an accurate term.

 

[TimeSmash]

Even though people have already re-directed this to to the mega-dump thread I couldn't help noticing this last part. If two players edge guarding you let you get a full level Din in place, without jumping out to punish you, and then died to it's 3 second timer explosion... wow. They obviously didn't know the match up, or how Din's operated, or, unless the 70% player was Jigs or a floatie, how to DI. No offense to your opponents, but that's like jumping into Fox's fully charged up-smash at kill percent and complaining it's broken.

This begs the question though of where the Din's was. Even I'm susceptible to undermine its range. We're assuming that it's at the edge, but it could be closer inward and high enough up so that the fire would come through the stage iteself, knockback and all

 

[WhiteCrow]

This begs the question though of where the Din's was. Even I'm susceptible to undermine its range. We're assuming that it's at the edge, but it could be closer inward and high enough up so that the fire would come through the stage iteself, knockback and all

I'm not doubting that they got hit by it, I'm just surprised they saw Zelda setting it, saw where it was placed, and stayed close to it at all, especially if they were at kill percent. They didn't shield it (angled down), they didn't send one teammate to disrupt Zelda, they didn't send someone to try and remove the mine, and they were both close enough to each other to both get hit at once. It's hard to say that Din's are op omg plz nerf when people won't even count the timer or learn it's final hitbox or punish Zelda while she sets it. You can even jump out to punish her after she places it since it has so much end lag in the air.

 

[TimeSmash]

I'm not doubting that they got hit by it, I'm just surprised they saw Zelda setting it, saw where it was placed, and stayed close to it at all, especially if they were at kill percent. They didn't shield it (angled down), they didn't send one teammate to disrupt Zelda, they didn't send someone to try and remove the mine, and they were both close enough to each other to both get hit at once. It's hard to say that Din's are op omg plz nerf when people won't even count the timer or learn it's final hitbox or punish Zelda while she sets it. You can even jump out to punish her after she places it since it has so much end lag in the air.

I definitely agree with you. I'm just saying if a setup like this happened:

_______________
. o

where o is Din's, and the explosion made it through, that could be weird for 1v1 play because you'd probably think the explosion couldn't make it. Although like you said, I'd avoid that area or attack Zelda before she could make a huge Din's like that. It's more of a radius concern than anything for me

 

[Oaty]

Can someone help me out with the Kirby MU?

I have a hard time setting up anything you with dins and combining seems really DI dependent. Any of you guys know how to play this MU or at least have some experience in it?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Can someone help me out with the Kirby MU?

I have a hard time setting up anything you with dins and combining seems really DI dependent. Any of you guys know how to play this MU or at least have some experience in it?

It's the same as the Jigglypuff MU. You have to play the poke game. Din's doesn't help much. You need to keep moving, try to bait him in, avoid whatever he does, and hit him back with a LK or something. Grabs are good, because you can probably combo out of them

 

[TimeSmash]

And never get grabbed by Kirby ever because he has an awful chainthrow on floatier characters like Zelda

 

[flying_tortoise]

Hey guys I could really use your help. There is a tournament that I am going to and CT Zero and some other EC players are coming.
MU tips are greatly helpful against these characters:
Pit
Kirby ( @ Kaeldiar @ TimeSmash great advice, so no combo's? D: )
Metaknight
Zelda (yes, zelda dittos)
Fox
I guess I don't like floaty characters because combo ing is so different.
Fox I know about Upsmash repeated times but I'm looking more for advice when the opponent is applying so much pressure (so I would either be in shield or trying to spot dodge repeatedly).

Sorry for the tall order of advice randomly but it'd be greatly useful

 

[Encephalon Decay]

I dunno if anyone brought it up before (Haven't read through the entire thread) but this reminds me about the whole ordeal about Bowser being OP way back when. People didn't recognize that if you could force him to approach and use all those laggy moves, he suddenly became a lot easier to manage, heavy armor or not. Instead they would approach him, attack his heavy armor while he just waited for the idiot, and smacked them around for their bad play. Nowadays? People adapted, and Bowser isn't on the pedestal he was on anymore. A similar thing could be said (to a lesser degree) about melee IC's and Yoshi, when they first started coming to fame.

It's a similar concept. People haven't adapted to Zelda yet, and are playing stupid against her. She won't seem so impossibly difficult after people learn the proper ways to fight her.

TL;DR

People need to stop forgetting the term "Matchup knowledge" exists, and stop assuming that they already have it.

 

[flying_tortoise]

So against metaknight I discovered that he doesn't have any moves that swat away dins. I tried fair, ftilit, dtilt, utilt. and pretty sure that i tried bair and nair as well.

So it seems in this MU use the dins to limit the options like usual. I used to believe that MK was a faster marth who could swat with w/e move (but this is wrong).

Will try more MU's later ( but it seems the majority of my flaws are just improving as a player ex: using ftilt or dair when appropiate)

 

[ECHOnce]

So against metaknight I discovered that he doesn't have any moves that swat away dins. I tried fair, ftilit, dtilt, utilt. and pretty sure that i tried bair and nair as well.

So it seems in this MU use the dins to limit the options like usual. I used to believe that MK was a faster marth who could swat with w/e move (but this is wrong).

Will try more MU's later ( but it seems the majority of my flaws are just improving as a player ex: using ftilt or dair when appropiate)

All of his moves (besides dash attack) have...transcendent priority or something? I know ShadowGanon has explained it countless times here and in other forums, but I forget what it's called aha...anyways, MK's transcendent priority means that his dash attack is the only move that can clang. (and therefore the only one that can put out dins, which has pretty punishable endlag)