Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[Daftatt]

Do you guys think zelda is more likely to get nerfed or redesigned?

- Two knee of justices with small startup
- Stage control with dins fire
- Offensively viable teleport (and safe recovery)
- Kill throws (if I'm not mistaken)

 

[Downdraft]

Do you guys think zelda is more likely to get nerfed or redesigned?

- Two knee of justices with small startup
- Stage control with dins fire
- Offensively viable teleport (and safe recovery)
- Kill throws (if I'm not mistaken)

1. The critical sweet spot is tougher to land consistently than the knee of justice. Plus Zelda doesn't have Captain Falcon's mobility.
Both characters can combo into their kill aerials; I honestly don't believe hers are any worse than Captain Falcon's.
2. Snake has stage control with his multiple projectiles, and they can be just as deadly, if not more so.
3. Her recovery may be safe if she sweet spots the ledge; getting back onto the stage isn't easy versus a good opponent.
Link's upB is a great counter to Zelda's recovery options.
4. Only B-throw. Ness's B-throw is pretty powerful too.

Essentially, all the issues you talked about are present in other characters, some of which are just as viable as her.
I'm just going to enjoy 3.0. If she takes a turn for the worse in the next major release, then so be it.
We have no control over the matter.

 

[Garde Noir]

1. The critical sweet spot is tougher to land consistently than the knee of justice. Plus Zelda doesn't have Captain Falcon's mobility.
Both characters can combo into their kill aerials; I honestly don't believe hers are any worse than Captain Falcon's.
2. Snake has stage control with his multiple projectiles, and they can be just as deadly, if not more so.
3. Her recovery may be safe if she sweet spots the ledge; getting back onto the stage isn't easy versus a good opponent.
Link's upB is a great counter to Zelda's recovery options.
4. Only B-throw. Ness's B-throw is pretty powerful too.

Essentially, all the issues you talked about are present in other characters, some of which are just as viable as her.
I'm just going to enjoy 3.0. If she takes a turn for the worse in the next major release, then so be it.
We have no control over the matter.

continuing on this topic,
1: Sweetspot is as hard to hit as Luigi's, with fewer options to do it, and less reliable than Jiggly's or Falcons. spacies have better sweetspots.
2:Link has better stage control and pressure with his projectiles, like Snake, as does Diddy and Rob.
3:Falling is also incredibly hard, because you're easily juggled as Zelda, and teleport is kinda predictable and easily punished.
4:Forward throw is awful, as it racks up almost no damage and even less knockback. Downthrow is okay for comboing, but Pikachu, and spacies have better ones and upthrow is weak with decent range, making it hard for Zelda to combo off it-- like most upthrows: Mewtwo has a better upthrow.

 

[The_NZA]

continuing on this topic,
1: Sweetspot is as hard to hit as Luigi's, with fewer options to do it, and less reliable than Jiggly's or Falcons. spacies have better sweetspots.

Please stop perpetuating this false equivalency. The size of the hitbox nor it's active frames indicate how hard it is to land compared to when those hitframes are active and where they are active. It doesn't matter if her kick has a small hitbox if it is on a long *** leg--people have learned to land the Marth tipper'd fsmash, and Zelda's fair is arguably easier to land than that, due to aerial forward and back spacing being easier than running ground spacing. Additionally, the fact that the sweetspot is only active for like 3-4 frames or whatever hardly matters since most sweetspots aren't active for that long, and as long as they have short startup (in Zelda's case, 5 frames fair or 8 frames bair), they can be reliably aimed. When something is active for a short amount of time, all that means is that you cant whoop it out, and then manuever into it. Nothing halts its effectiveness of first manuevering into position and then kicking out.

So please...stop with the Zelda fair/bair = jiggly puff rest = luigi dragon punch comparisons. Jigglypuff and Luigi have to be extremely close to the opponent to use their moves, making them high risk-high reward. They are not an effective parallel to Zelda's kicks.

As for #4, you are mistaken. Fthrow when someone DI's into zelda = a free fair on many characters at many kill percents. Dthrow = great tech followups and can be a free bair on many characters at kill percents. Bthrow is a kill throw nad uthrow is good against spacies.

fthrow/bthrow are a DI mixup with great punishes.

 

[Daftatt]

1. The critical sweet spot is tougher to land consistently than the knee of justice. Plus Zelda doesn't have Captain Falcon's mobility.
Both characters can combo into their kill aerials; I honestly don't believe hers are any worse than Captain Falcon's.
2. Snake has stage control with his multiple projectiles, and they can be just as deadly, if not more so.
3. Her recovery may be safe if she sweet spots the ledge; getting back onto the stage isn't easy versus a good opponent.
Link's upB is a great counter to Zelda's recovery options.
4. Only B-throw. Ness's B-throw is pretty powerful too.

Essentially, all the issues you talked about are present in other characters, some of which are just as viable as her.
I'm just going to enjoy 3.0. If she takes a turn for the worse in the next major release, then so be it.
We have no control over the matter.

I see your points and agree that individually zelda's money moves aren't overpowered, I just think in tandem they are more potent and thereby more controversial.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Oh man the pressure iss reeeaalll! But thanks dude I really appreciate the shoutout lol I could recommend a few other Spacie players if ya'll were interested. Some good Falco's I've played are @ Tails_Glados_Puff , @JDavisR (NIX) and Fox's i'd say @jaedong and @Mattchu have pretty decent Fox's even though they don't main him. There's also this on Fox I played @Bearedman8 , who has an incredibly well rounded technical Fox, but unfortunately I don't believe he's able to play until he's home from college.


I'd love to play you dude! But I won't be able to till Thursday so I'll make sure to let you know when I get on.
Just a heads up, I literally have zero knowledge on how the Zelda/Fox MU goes so it'll give me a few games to figure it out. Lol I'll throw every trick up my sleeve at you and hopefully we'll have some good games!

I'll give you a tip since my brother mains her...... Do a LOT of nairs and shffl approaches. Also, use lasers when you can, and predict the up b so that you can lead to a good up smash or shine OOS.

 

[TimeSmash]

Butting in again to ask about Zelda's chainthrow against spacies. It's just Upthrow and then regrab, right?

 

[Downdraft]

Butting in again to ask about Zelda's chainthrow against spacies. It's just Upthrow and then regrab, right?

Right, but the opponent can shift left and right, so you might have to chase them a little.
It also works on Captain Falcon.

Chain u-throwing seems to be the most basic thing she can do versus fast-fallers.
You can throw in some u-smash and f-tilt to combo as well.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

What percent can Fox shine / jump out of her chaingrab @ DarkStarStorm ? or does it not matter because she can get a kill move off before i'm able to do anything? ughh this MU sounds just as bad as Fox vs Pika :'[[[

You want to go to Yoshi's (either one). She will kill you with up throw and up smash. Don't get hit.

@ TimeSmash No, it is best to do up-throw, up-smash, repeat x times, fair/bair.

 

[jtm94]

I played a few sets of Ness vs Zelda today and I do see some of the complaints from NZA about Zelda.

The only thing that actually needs fixed or changed in my opinion is that Ness's DownB Magnet barely absorbs dins. Like.... it doesn't absorb the dins until the dins is basically touching his body, though the magnet surrounds quite a lot of the area around him. It should DEFINITELY be able to eat through dins much more effectively than it does.

Other than that... he definitely has the tools to beat her. dins fire is still a very solid projectile and when thrown at an angle, reflecting it doesn't do much. DownB aside fair, dair as well as nair can also cut through dins if need be. Ness cannot do a lot of the follow ups he is used to, but just use a different moveset against Zelda. dair and uair can hit through Nayru's so bait it out and punish. Uair will KO at what seemed like 80-90 at the earliest, 100 at the latest.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Please stop perpetuating this false equivalency. The size of the hitbox nor it's active frames indicate how hard it is to land compared to when those hitframes are active and where they are active. It doesn't matter if her kick has a small hitbox if it is on a long *** leg--people have learned to land the Marth tipper'd fsmash, and Zelda's fair is arguably easier to land than that, due to aerial forward and back spacing being easier than running ground spacing. Additionally, the fact that the sweetspot is only active for like 3-4 frames or whatever hardly matters since most sweetspots aren't active for that long, and as long as they have short startup (in Zelda's case, 5 frames fair or 8 frames bair), they can be reliably aimed. When something is active for a short amount of time, all that means is that you cant whoop it out, and then manuever into it. Nothing halts its effectiveness of first manuevering into position and then kicking out.

So please...stop with the Zelda fair/bair = jiggly puff rest = luigi dragon punch comparisons. Jigglypuff and Luigi have to be extremely close to the opponent to use their moves, making them high risk-high reward. They are not an effective parallel to Zelda's kicks.

As for #4, you are mistaken. Fthrow when someone DI's into zelda = a free fair on many characters at many kill percents. Dthrow = great tech followups and can be a free bair on many characters at kill percents. Bthrow is a kill throw nad uthrow is good against spacies.

fthrow/bthrow are a DI mixup with great punishes.

May I also add that not only are the lightning kicks safer (and in my opinion, easier to use) than all of the moves you listed, but it also kills 20% earlier than the Knee of Justice. No one should be more awesome than Captain Falcon. NO ONE!!!!

But, once again, I think we've been over this subject at least 5 million times. We should really find a new subject...

 

[The_NZA]

May I also add that not only are the lightning kicks safer (and in my opinion, easier to use) than all of the moves you listed, but it also kills 20% earlier than the Knee of Justice. No one should be more awesome than Captain Falcon. NO ONE!!!!

View attachment 11782

But, once again, I think we've been over this subject at least 5 million times. We should really find a new subject...

Just want to point out, my recent post is not to reignite the "lightening kick is too strong" argument. I'm just really annoyed with these basic Zelda arguments about how lightening kick is somehow as risky or hard to land as rest/luigi dragonpunch/other random high risk high reward move.

 

[foxygrandpa]

To redesign zelda would mean tons of people would literally just have to relearn their character...I dont see that happening
I like to play as zelda, but the one thing I learned about her is that she requires specific matchup knowledge to play against, which no character should.
For example, take the din's explosions. If someone was fighting zelda for the first time, how are they supposed to know that the range of the explosion is so large compared to the actual din's? Not to mention the size varies.
Also, up b should have a slightly longer startup if you ask me, but I dont know if thats too much.

 

[ShadowGanon]

To redesign zelda would mean tons of people would literally just have to relearn their character...I dont see that happening
I like to play as zelda, but the one thing I learned about her is that she requires specific matchup knowledge to play against, which no character should.
For example, take the din's explosions. If someone was fighting zelda for the first time, how are they supposed to know that the range of the explosion is so large compared to the actual din's? Not to mention the size varies.
Also, up b should have a slightly longer startup if you ask me, but I dont know if thats too much.

The PMBR will do what they will. There is no use constantly talking about things that we think are too OP or should be nerfed/changed. Let's focus on the here and now. We can only hope for the best in the next release.

 

[JCOnyx]

I still think a complete redesign of Zelda would be a terrible decision by the PMBR. If anything they should just tone her down, but there lies the problem; she has almost no tournament results to justify such changes. But if they did tone her down the go to move changes would probably be:

Fair/Bair KB reduction
Up Smash final hit more susceptible to SDI / DI
Nayru's Love hitboxes adjusted and invincibility adjusted in some way (perhaps even more vulnerable from up top/below)
Land canceling Naryu's Love becomes even more difficult
Adding even more endlag to F Smash
D Smash comes out 1-2 frames later (I would not be happy with this change btw)

I for one am of the opinion that Teleport should not be touched in any way, shape or form besides possibly it's set KB. It's nowhere near as good as a lot of recoveries and wavedashing out of it is one of the only interesting ways to play an aggressive Zelda.

If they do end up doing a complete redesign, I'll lose a lot of faith and respect for the PMBR. This is 3.0, the first "FULL" release of Project M. If you really didn't like Zelda's design perhaps you should have changed it, I don't know, 2 to 3 versions ago (like 2.1 or 2.5). It would be complete stupidity to make such drastic changes after a non demo release. Respect the players who have put time into your iteration of Zelda, for heavens sakes.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I still think a complete redesign of Zelda would be a terrible decision by the PMBR. If anything they should just tone her down, but there lies the problem; she has almost no tournament results to justify such changes. But if they did tone her down the go to move changes would probably be:

Fair/Bair KB reduction
Up Smash final hit more susceptible to SDI / DI
Nayru's Love hitboxes adjusted and invincibility adjusted in some way (perhaps even more vulnerable from up top/below)
Land canceling Naryu's Love becomes even more difficult
Adding even more endlag to F Smash
D Smash comes out 1-2 frames later (I would not be happy with this change btw)

I for one am of the opinion that Teleport should not be touched in any way, shape or form besides possibly it's set KB. It's nowhere near as good as a lot of recoveries and wavedashing out of it is one of the only interesting ways to play an aggressive Zelda.

If they do end up doing a complete redesign, I'll lose a lot of faith and respect for the PMBR. This is 3.0, the first "FULL" release of Project M. If you really didn't like Zelda's design perhaps you should have changed it, I don't know, 2 to 3 versions ago (like 2.1 or 2.5). It would be complete stupidity to make such drastic changes after a non demo release. Respect the players who have put time into your iteration of Zelda, for heavens sakes.

I appreciate your opinion (and I agree with most of it), but please read my last post.

 

[jtm94]

I don't think Marth tipper, GnW Judgement Hammer, Link's down air or Falcon knee are as much of a commitment as Zelda's kick.... because they can all combo into them over the course of pretty much any percent. Marth does stop comboing into it at higher percent, I will accept that argument.

Kicks were pretty strong in Melee, people seem to think the kick got buffed by like.. double the power, which isn't true.

And slowing down smash will be the dumbest thing, if that idea was ever pondered...

The problem isn't even that Zelda is OP, some moves are just really decent, but as a whole she is most definitely not a top tier character. If she would get anything it should be like Ivy where they fix the annoying, but give her some better moves to compensate.

I'm really accepting of this version's everything, and will try to learn to play against it to the best of my ability.

 

[The_NZA]

Kicks were pretty strong in Melee, people seem to think the kick got buffed by like.. double the power, which isn't true.

The super crit spot is a buff, but overall no one was really claiming it got mega buffed from melee. Just that, alongiside the rest of her kit, its very strong. And also, yes, the super crit spot was definitely not in melee (even if a regular sweetspot was slightly more rewarding/consistent).

 

[Downdraft]

The super crit spot is a buff, but overall no one was really claiming it got mega buffed from melee. Just that, alongiside the rest of her kit, its very strong. And also, yes, the super crit spot was definitely not in melee (even if a regular sweetspot was slightly more rewarding/consistent).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the critical sweet spot Brawl's sweet spot and of comparable knockback?

 

[The_NZA]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the critical sweet spot Brawl's sweet spot and of comparable knockback?

Brawl is an inspiration for gameplay decisions in this game but it isn't nor has it ever been the template. This is outwardly stated all over PM informationals... That when redesigning characters (brawl and melee) that if they exist in melee, they will be heavily based off their melee counterparts with creative ideas inspired from elsewhere, which includes brawl.

The creative TLDR for PM has always been:
1. Characters from Melee will be rooted or based on their melee counterparts
2. New ideas will come from us or brawl or 64, wherever they seem to fit
3. Anything is subject to change, for the good of the game

 

[ShadowGanon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the critical sweet spot Brawl's sweet spot and of comparable knockback?

Brawl is an inspiration for gameplay decisions in this game but it isn't nor has it ever been the template. This is outwardly stated all over PM informationals... That when redesigning characters (brawl and melee) that if they exist in melee, they will be heavily based off their melee counterparts with creative ideas inspired from elsewhere, which includes brawl.

The creative TLDR for PM has always been:
1. Characters from Melee will be rooted or based on their melee counterparts
2. New ideas will come from us or brawl or 64, wherever they seem to fit
3. Anything is subject to change, for the good of the game

So, to answer you original question, @ Downdraft , no. There is considerably more knockback on the crit-box than there was in Brawl.

 

[Downdraft]

So, to answer you original question, @ Downdraft , no. There is considerably more knockback on the crit-box than there was in Brawl.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

 

[jtm94]

Yeah I'm aware the super crit spot wasn't in melee, I was just saying Melee kick was still pretty strong, it got the crit spot to be potentially stronger, but sort of less consistent.

I was thinking it was about as strong as Brawl's crit spot, but I am corrected.

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah I'm aware the super crit spot wasn't in melee, I was just saying Melee kick was still pretty strong, it got the crit spot to be potentially stronger, but sort of less consistent.

I was thinking it was about as strong as Brawl's crit spot, but I am corrected.

Only less consistent in the hands of a worse player. In the hands of a good player (KDJ) it's monstrous practically always.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Only less consistent in the hands of a worse player. In the hands of a good player (KDJ) it's monstrous practically always.

But you have to realize that sweetspotting LKs is all that KDJ can do as Zelda. His combo game sucks

 

[The_NZA]

But you have to realize that sweetspotting LKs is all that KDJ can do as Zelda. His combo game sucks

Right. Now imagine if he had a combo game.

 

[jtm94]

Zelda doesn't have amazing mobility to position the kicks, half of the battle is making your opponent jump at you unsafely to land them, and the time isn't always right. He does land the strong kicks pretty frequently, but it isn't always the crit.

Zelda also isn't a super combo character and can't do much against other floaty characters, fastfallers are a different story.

 

[Sonallvegqu]

For a while as far as fighting with Zelda, I must say that Zelda's F-air and B-air seriously needs to be nerf in some way like lowering the knockback or damage slightly a bit. There's this really strong guy named AMIKE who's a very prominent Zelda user in Project M: 3.02 and more than 50% of the time he connects me with his f-airs or b-airs. How is he just connecting those powerful lightning kicks with little effort or is Project M: 3.02 really made Zelda this OP? Plus, during Zelda's Nayru's Love, does she have some invincibility frames for trouncing your opponents' attacks?

 

[Downdraft]

For a while as far as fighting with Zelda, I must say that Zelda's F-air and B-air seriously needs to be nerf in some way like lowering the knockback or damage slightly a bit. There's this really strong guy named AMIKE who's a very prominent Zelda user in Project M: 3.02 and more than 50% of the time he connects me with his f-airs or b-airs. How is he just connecting those powerful lightning kicks with little effort or is Project M: 3.02 really made Zelda this OP? Plus, during Zelda's Nayru's Love, does she have some invincibility frames for trouncing your opponents' attacks?

IIRC, grounded Nayru's is invicible on frames 4-11, but the move is bait-able and punishable.
The post above yours explains how the lightning kicks are balanced.

Just because a statistically insignificant minority of players can do something, doesn't mean the entire character or game should be changed.
This AMIKE guy might be able to land a sweet spot with consistency like KDJ, but that's his opposition's fault too; they don't have to get hit.
Zelda punishes mistakes. If you're getting sweet spotted constantly, then you're making several major mistakes.
Perhaps you should slow down and reevaluate your methods.

KDJ and Zhime are two of Zelda's strongest representatives. Changes that come to Zelda shouldn't be based on what they've done.
Few people will even reach their level. Don't screw over all the other Zelda mains out there.
Not all of the PM community frequents Smash Boards; people's input here shouldn't be THE determining factor.
There are easily hundreds if not thousands of PM players that aren't members of this site whose opinions go unheard and whose PM enjoyability may be compromised if the outcry of a statistically small minority ends up changing the game.

 

[ShadowGanon]

For a while as far as fighting with Zelda, I must say that Zelda's F-air and B-air seriously needs to be nerf in some way like lowering the knockback or damage slightly a bit. There's this really strong guy named AMIKE who's a very prominent Zelda user in Project M: 3.02 and more than 50% of the time he connects me with his f-airs or b-airs. How is he just connecting those powerful lightning kicks with little effort or is Project M: 3.02 really made Zelda this OP? Plus, during Zelda's Nayru's Love, does she have some invincibility frames for trouncing your opponents' attacks?

IIRC, grounded Nayru's is invicible on frames 4-11, but the move is bait-able and punishable.
The post above yours explains how the lightning kicks are balanced.

Just because a statistically insignificant minority of players can do something, doesn't mean the entire character or game should be changed.
This AMIKE guy might be able to land a sweet spot with consistency like KDJ, but that's his opposition's fault too; they don't have to get hit.
Zelda punishes mistakes. If you're getting sweet spotted constantly, then you're making several major mistakes.
Perhaps you should slow down and reevaluate your methods.

KDJ and Zhime are two of Zelda's strongest representatives. Changes that come to Zelda shouldn't be based on what they've done.
Few people will even reach their level. Don't screw over all the other Zelda mains out there.
Not all of the PM community frequents Smash Boards; people's input here shouldn't be THE determining factor.
There are easily hundreds if not thousands of PM players that aren't members of this site whose opinions go unheard and whose PM enjoyability may be compromised if the outcry of a statistically small minority ends up changing the game.

V How many times will I have to say this V

The PMBR will do what they will. There is no use constantly talking about things that we think are too OP or should be nerfed/changed. Let's focus on the here and now. We can only hope for the best in the next release.

 

[flying_tortoise]

@ShadowGannon
well...ppl don't like to read....so your probably going to end up saying it a couple times more xD

 

[Prynne]

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet or not, somewhere, but can anyone give me any insight into the Squirtle matchup? I'm having a time dealing with him, and his side B is nearly unblockable. Then again, that's my fault for not jumping over it half the time. Are there any basic things I can do to keep up spacing? The Squirtle I've fought has had little difficulty dispatching Din's, so that didn't quite work out.

 

[Kaeldiar]

I'm not sure if this has been covered yet or not, somewhere, but can anyone give me any insight into the Squirtle matchup? I'm having a time dealing with him, and his side B is nearly unblockable. Then again, that's my fault for not jumping over it half the time. Are there any basic things I can do to keep up spacing? The Squirtle I've fought has had little difficulty dispatching Din's, so that didn't quite work out.

You're not alone...we have a thread for that http://smashboards.com/threads/squirtles.352325/#post-16607881

 

[Katy Parry]

Zelda is right about where she needs to be.

PMBR needs to just leave **** alone. They're ruining the game they've created. P:M is losing more fans than gaining because every month the meta game changes. It's stupid. The region I'm from HATES the game for this reason, and it's understandable. No one should dedicate time and effort to a character just to have it constantly change.

Having 3.0 released a month before Apex, and making that the played version was ****ing STUPID in my opinion. A month is not nearly enough time to completely change your playstyle if your character was ****ing destroyed. I mean Jesus Christ, come on, that's why you have playtesters. Building and destroying characters CONSTANTLY ruins the tournament scene for this game, and it's why fewer and fewer people like it every time a number is added after the versions decimal point.

They're patches. I think you need to realize they have to fix what they deem are mistakes: its their game, after all. Just look at League of Legends.

 

[flying_tortoise]

They're patches. I think you need to realize they have to fix what they deem are mistakes: its their game, after all. Just look at League of Legends.

league has patches? huh...
anyways ive come to terms with it. had to go through the stages of depression (last is acceptance). but yah im just hoping it wont be too bad and that PM stands tall still when smash 4 comes out (those 2 things are all i care about)

 

[Katy Parry]

league has patches? huh...
anyways ive come to terms with it. had to go through the stages of depression (last is acceptance). but yah im just hoping it wont be too bad and that PM stands tall still when smash 4 comes out (those 2 things are all i care about)

I'll pretty much do what I usually do, which is completely abandon the last title for the most recent one. I don't try to waste anytime. lol.

 

[jtm94]

Against Squirtle you can pivot grab him out of SideB, it actually isn't that hard. Practice it and it will be super helpful!

 

[Deviljho]

@ WhiteLightnin I got you a video of me playing a Zelda... Level 9 CPU. lol I get a bit frustrated with it, so please don't judge me Zelda Mains. Sorry for the bad quality, I had to use my Ipod to capture it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOaJ8PujO-c&feature=youtu.be

Thanks again you guys for helpin me out.

 

[the_irish_dude]

these conversations... i come in hoping for something new.. and its the same :/ lol

 

[ShadowGanon]

these conversations... i come in hoping for something new.. and its the same :/ lol

Lol. What happens most of the time:

People complain about (insert Zelda move here) -> People call for nerf -> People argue whether or not it should be nerfed -> ShadowGanon quotes himself again (see earlier posts in this thread) -> People continue to argue -> People get tired of arguing and leave -> People come back and complain about different move -> go back to the beginning.

-> @ Deviljho decides to be the cool guy and focuses on getting better.