Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[The_NZA]

They're only accidental against people who don't know the range of the move. Move unfamiliarity is not a problem with the move. Mewtwo is riding a high horse for this reason with how much was added to him, but some of it will undoubtedly wane off.

Din's explosions do, in fact, match the explosion graphic. Note how Pit is not getting hit. If you were inside this visible shockwave and not having anything happen to you, that would look silly.

The mine that ticks is significantly smaller than the explosion. It's supposed to be. If it weren't, there would be too small a range for the explosion to hit without it being bumped into normally. It's not a bomb that goes off once touched like others, but once touched immediately does its minimal damage/KB. Think about any explosive in the game. They all have explosions farther than the range of the objects that generate them, including those that have hitboxes themselves.

You have Snake who can kill from C4s and Dsmash mines from stage level and aren't limited to committing hard to them, stringent timing to make sure you're range in of them when they go off and defenseless to get kills off them, etc. Zelda can very deliberately combo into Din's Fire explosions or DI trap into them with throws. Accidentals are nice, but are never dependable and are not a reason to be using the move against fresh players, because it won't work when she fights people who know what she's capable of.

I'm well aware of all that, but look at the range of that explosion in comparison to the size of the din mine. Take into consideration the size of bombs versus their explosion range, or even Snake's land mines. Most explosions may have a larger explosion radius than the size of the thing exploding, but din's can be shockingly large, and it does not depreciate in strength no matter how far someone is from the center. You don't even have to be bad to misjudge those things in the course of a best of 3 or 5. Hell, it almost cost Ally a stock against Zhime in Apex, all because he was barely clipped by the explosion on green hill zone ground level. Personally, I don't think any projectile needs to kill on ground level...especially when it has monstrous range and doesn't even leave the user vulnerable (once its up).

If it's kill power was decreased, you would still be able to kill people by comboing into it, but situations where someone misjudged and simply failed to defuse one wouldn't lead to a free kill.

I don't like the philosophy of this move because all the investment is front loaded (and barely so), while the opponent has to completely change his game to combat it because those things are too dangerous to be out and about. One wrong move can be a death at a moderately low percent for a projectile kill.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

That's also a rather convenient shot to show the shockwave's radius, with the high contrast against the background making it far more visible than usual and all.
What's more notable is how poorly the fire fits the shockwave. Why is the fire even there, if it gives a false impression of the hitbox like that? Couldn't the fire take up more space on explosion, or the shockwave represent a weaker hitbox, or the shockwave graphic happen without the fire, or anything?

Also, if I may ask something I've said before once again, if deliberate usage of the explosion is the main goal, why not give a better indicator of when the explosion will happen? On the surface setting up an explosion or avoiding the setup does not require an unnecessary internal clock or constant watch for the number of ticks gone by. More importantly, instead of accidental KOs, you'll have an extremely threatening projectile that can lead very well into a misstep from the opponent and a more effective lightning kick. At the same time, it alleviates problems with character specific matchups because mobility can partially make up for less-than-stellar hitboxes, as it does in most other aspects of the game and is what a few characters - such as Ness - are balanced around.
Currently, safe maneuvering around a Din's setup means little more than "get the hell away from there" given the ambiguous timing and hitbox size (ambiguous and varying, as a matter of fact). In combination it doesn't leave much room for a dash through any flaw the Zelda player may have left in the arrangement. There's just a few too many things about Din's that makes precise spacing a wasted effort. I think that if a spacing game were better introduced to Din's counterplay by clearing up the timing, it would also open an interesting counter to that on Zelda's part. Precise movements, after all, are inherently more limited and easier to predict and punish.

I've had a lot of practice with and against Zelda lately, and I'll admit, Din's is fun to use and rarely the tool for camping I judged it as to begin with. I'm still skeptical that the appearance couldn't be refined a little bit to keep the utility but eliminate toxic elements that may go along with that. Essentially, keeping both parties happy without really changing Zelda's effectiveness overall.

 

[Wavebuster]

I'm well aware of all that, but look at the range of that explosion in comparison to the size of the din mine. Take into consideration the size of bombs versus their explosion range, or even Snake's land mines. Most explosions may have a larger explosion radius than the size of the thing exploding, but din's can be shockingly large, and it does not depreciate in strength no matter how far someone is from the center. You don't even have to be bad to misjudge those things in the course of a best of 3 or 5. Hell, it almost cost Ally a stock against Zhime in Apex, all because he was barely clipped by the explosion on green hill zone ground level. Personally, I don't think any projectile needs to kill on ground level...especially when it has monstrous range and doesn't even leave the user vulnerable (once its up).

If it's kill power was decreased, you would still be able to kill people by comboing into it, but situations where someone misjudged and simply failed to defuse one wouldn't lead to a free kill.

I don't like the philosophy of this move because all the investment is front loaded (and barely so), while the opponent has to completely change his game to combat it because those things are too dangerous to be out and about. One wrong move can be a death at a moderately low percent for a projectile kill.

Jigglypuff's entire style changes your game, and largely because of one move. Some characters force you to be more cerebral and take a different approach than you're used to. This isn't a bad thing. Erring on the side of caution with a move that takes over 5 seconds to prepare and fire off isn't outlandish thing to ask of players. Yes, they're large enough to be a threat when they're allowed to be. For every time Zelda uses an opportunity to try to set huge mines that can kill from the stage floor (and only very long set ones will be able to do this - what were *you* doing that whole time?) maybe 1 in 20 will actually hit. Even fewer than that will kill.

Their explosion timing is not ambiguous. If it were, the user wouldn't be able into to combo into them that well. They have a set time before exploding and it's represented graphically (6 ticks, blows on 7th), or even if not onscreen, you can clock it mentally as the Zelda user herself does to combo into them with throws. I don't see a point in changing the move for the sake of handholding when the game is so competitive, and rife with things that are more objectionable than Zelda still. If the user of this move can learn the ins and outs, so can you. There's a difference between genuine problems and salt. If you're that afraid of the move, spot dodge, air dodge, or shield it.

All in all, it still beats being shut down by lasers which are effective at any range, unclankable, and can be used with minimal openings, honestly.

 

[jtm94]

Explosion can be nerfed I guess. WHAT ABOUT THIS: Make it so the dins has a standard kind of strong explosion, but not the insane giant one so that way it will always do the same thing.

I don't like dins, dins is bad imho. Too much commitment and once you comit you are stuck using dins until you are in a situation in which you can act. KDJ definitely uses dins, and very poorly I may add at time. KDJ also uses Nayru's a bit.

Nayru's isn't that strong, make the move faster so it feels like it does less and no one will complain. The issues with her are that people don't like multi-hit moves because they make you feel helpless.

I have yet to see KDJ play Zelda at a high level, and GamingUnderground all I do is see him derp around and sandbag. He WILL, however, pull off some really nice gimps with things like nair into nair into nair, and his use of dair intrigues me.

 

[Wavebuster]

Nayru's isn't that strong, make the move faster so it feels like it does less and no one will complain. The issues with her are that people don't like multi-hit moves because they make you feel helpless.

I've said it before and will say it again. People who think that this is a legitimate issue are ********. They may make you feel helpless but come with drawbacks. Easily reactable punishment on shield, easy SDI on launch hit to avoid combos (imagine if you had a half second window to realize Sheik's tilts hit you and could prepare SDI - it's like that), sordidly poor in attack trades, and long animations mean they're unsafe on whiff. Despite all their strengths, they're not top tier moves in Zelda's hands, nor are they especially powerful then they hit to the end. The least they can do is work when they land, because 99% of the moves' power is focused in the last hit.

And people wonder why I don't listen to them.

You implied that KDJ proved Zelda may not need to be changed, and that he invalidates "some" of the arguments against her.

I didn't really catch what some of those arguments were, or why his success proved Zelda may not need to be changed. If anything, I argued that KDJ lit a road for other Zelda players to stop complaining that they might end up with nerfed Dins explosions or Dins game, or nayru's love, since Zelda won't become any less viable. If anything, KDJ plays Zelda by not using her most complained about traits, and he shows how she can be designed to better take advantage of the traits that work and aren't nearly as annoying. That was what I was trying to point out.

Honestly, I (and many others) have felt Zelda is an amazingly strong character (that is what I meant by amazing earlier), and that is reflected in CT's tier list that puts her in high tier. For some reason at some point, it became common to simply presume Zelda wasn't a top 10 character but when you really look at her moveset, range, low cooldown on attacks, quick startup, and great power, you realize she's a godsend. Add in her projectile game and you are looking at a high tier.

I also missed this.

KDJ proved that a more minimal style with Zelda focused on normals can be effective. This does not equal a carte blanche to nerf things, rationalizing that they're not needed. Many things many characters have aren't needed but they're there for one reason or another and are even annoying in practice. Multiple styles with a character being effective is a good thing, which speaks highly of a character who has arguably the worst mobility in the game. Nerfing styles in favor of another is the definition of forced design, as zhime might tell you.

 

[The_NZA]

I've said it before and will say it again. People who think that this is a legitimate issue are ********. They may make you feel helpless but come with drawbacks. Easily reactable punishment on shield, easy SDI on launch hit to avoid combos (imagine if you had a half second window to realize Sheik's tilts hit you and could prepare SDI - it's like that), sordidly poor in attack trades, and long animations mean they're unsafe on whiff. Despite all their strengths, they're not top tier moves in Zelda's hands, nor are they especially powerful then they hit to the end. The least they can do is work when they land, because 99% of the moves' power is focused in the last hit.

And people wonder why I don't listen to them.


I also missed this.

KDJ proved that a more minimal style with Zelda focused on normals can be effective. This does not equal a carte blanche to nerf things, rationalizing that they're not needed. Many things many characters have aren't needed but they're there for one reason or another and are even annoying in practice. Multiple styles with a character being effective is a good thing, which speaks highly of a character who has arguably the worst mobility in the game. Nerfing styles in favor of another is the definition of forced design, as zhime might tell you.

I think these are strawmen arguments. People aren't arguing about multihits because they are annoying. People are arguing against the individual moves themselves, that seem to have deceptive hitboxes, short startups, and (i'm sorry, no matter how much you argue differently, it doesn't make it any less true) low cooldown/thin punish windows. A lot of Zelda' s all utility moves feel like they have similar framedata to Fox's Usmash--really short startup, and yes--a punish window--but a small one that is extremely hard to identify. As far as SDI--most of Zelda's moves don't have SDI multipliers at hte level that allows Smash DI in response. I don't think that's a bad choice, but just want to nip that argument of counterplay in the bud.

As to the point of "promoting styles", some styles are superior for hte game than others. A red panic button with great range, bad hit box aesthetics, and low punishable lag isn't really a good move in a kit on a character that already scares people to approach laterally in the air to her. A projectile that can be placed around the stage 3 times (safely due to drifting mechanics) with the risk of blowing up an opponent and killing them around 100% is IMO not a really good way to design kills. To the chap who mentioned that hte hitbox explosions must not be that ambiguous if they can be combod into--did it ever occur to you that many zelda's will place those balls so that when they kick someone or throw someone, the general size of hte explosion radius guarantees a explosion kill a percentage of hte time? Just because the hitbox is somehwat ambiguous to many players, does not make it harder to combo into if it IS a massive hitbox in the first place.

I'm not saying Zelda should lose her tools but they should invent new play styles for her while decreasing her reliance and effectiveness on safer styles that drag the game to a worse more boring place where risk and reward stop being friends. For example, I've played against Zhime and Rizner and guess who was harder for me to get a hit on in neutral? Believe it or not, Rizner. Still, every day, I would 100% rather play Zhime due to his impeccably interesting Zelda style.

 

[Rizner]

ok, guess it's time for me to throw an input here. Note upfront: I don't like talking about what is good or broken or not good or what when it comes to the character, as I think we're past that point. Opinions are pretty set and as for if changes happen -- we'll see them when they come and deal with them as they come. Realistically, I'd be pretty disappointed if they took away options characters have. Having said that, I really can't judge what they are doing until it's done and I try it out. I am against changes in general because I don't think she's broken (in either direction, or her moves), but once again it's time for the waiting game.


Anyways, since I was mentioned and because this conversation is happening, I'll throw in my two cents.

So. From what I gather, the problems are with Dins, Nayru's love, Quick startup and end lag, plus not-so-obvious hitboxes.

Dins:
I think the problem people have with them are that they use characters who can't clank well with 'em or that they just don't understand how they work. For NZA/ness -- the nair hitbox is super hard to hit on it, but you can absorb them pretty easily if you just start the momentum towards it. Then you can use it as a mindgame and if someone tries to punish, DJC your approach with a hit towards them and fly over the thing. As far as it not killing/only accidental kills/whatever else, Zelda has tools to hit someone sideways. Throws, spacing on ftilt, jab, kicks come to mind. All of these can be used to hit someone into a mine purposefully. Also, for it to kill from the ground means you're probably on a small stage and at a high percent. Or a large stage and a super high percent. Samus' missile would probably kill, ivysaur's leaf would set up for kills, falco lasers set up for kills, all of snake's stuff would kill. Zelda isn't the only one with a projectile that makes the enemy play differently. Once you learn how to deal with it, it isn't too terrible. It forces you to decide what you're plan is during a match and can make you think more than usual. I like that. One non-intuitive thing about it: what happens on shield. To explain, once a mine hits a shield, it loses it's hitbox. The explosion still hits you, but the mine itself doesn't. Unless I place another one. Once that other one is placed, the already shielded one gets a hitbox again. It's weird. I'd be fine with this mechanic going away or being changed slightly -- the hitbox stays away (although that could be kinda dumb), the hitbox disappears for x seconds, something.. If the mine went away, though, I think that'd be a pretty bad nerf that isn't necessary.

NL:
This move takes getting used to. That's an ok thing. I think the hitboxes make sense on it, but I understand why you wouldn't think so. A different animation would probably be fine, but I don't see it as an issue. The land cancel specifically - in order to do it, there is a high startup cost (you have to be in the air, hesitate the startup, then use it). If you want a quick startup, there's a TON of land lag to be punished (the move finishes). So that's a thing where you can bait and punish the quicker version, or just wave dash away and punish the land cancelled one. The LC nayru still has ending frames (which is different than I believe 2.6 Zelda). Not many, but there are some, so if you see someone jumping towards you, you can run towards them, shield while they're in the air, then get a grab when they land before they can act. Really hard to start doing but useful and once you're used to it not too bad to do. The invincibility is weird -- it's kinda like an upgraded invincibility from olimar in brawl, but not as good because of the startup time being longer and hitstun also being longer. It can help to get out of things, but also be baited pretty hard and punished even harder. Instead of one more juggle, you can just land and get a huge smash attack. Stuff like that. It turns into mindgames at the higher levels, imo

Quick startup/ending lag:
This might seem like an issue for some characters, but against others it feels like you have days to complete an action. It was related to fox's upsmash, but realistically if I miss with any of zelda's moves (aside from land cancelled Nayru's unless they shield it, but including jab, all tilts aside from downtilt (which they could nair anyways), all smash attacks, all aerials aside from uair when only the first hitbox comes out) fox can land an upsmash reliably. If fox misses an upsmash, Zelda can't do the same punish. I think the reason for the amount of frames she has on moves is because of her mobility. If she were super fast on the ground, it'd be too much. But she can't get from point a to b fast enough for it to be a huge issue. Also, her grounded moves generally have a lot of end lag and her aerial moves, even when L cancelled, can usually be punished when she lands on the ground. Fighting her in the air is hard for some characters, but not for fast ones or ones with large disjoint (I'm looking at you, Mewtwo). I think the lag she has on her moves are close to average for everything in comparison to the rest of the cast.

The hitboxes:
I think that some of these could be changed slightly to better reflect where the hitbox actually is. But I don't really notice the differences as I use her a lot. The dins thing -- I am pretty sure there's a flash to show how large they're supposed to be, but realistically once you play a Zelda who uses them and you see it, you should be able to get the gist of how they work, how big they'll be-ish, and what to do. If you can't adapt to something like that, you'll have to learn it between matches or in friendlies some other time. Matchups are hard and work should be put in to learn them, including where hitboxes actually are and stuff.


I think you're overstating how safe the moves are to use, and how easily they are to play around. I understand that you regularly play against a Zelda now, but that doesn't mean the matchup is understood by either person playing it, nor how to get around the little things which can throw someone off at first. All of the things you've mentioned can be played around, and it could be argued that it's hard to learn the matchup, but then it comes down to: Is that a bad thing? All matchups take different amounts of time to get used to and play around. Every character you fight should be fought differently. Every person you play against will cause a different playstyle. That's good and healthy. Does her matchup take too much work? I don't think so, but that's not for me to decide. It does take work though, and I'm ok with that.



Please let me know if I missed something, completely misunderstood what was said, or am thought to be wrong about something. Everyone makes mistakes, myself included. I'd be happy to clarify if something either doesn't make sense or if another counter-argument is brought up. If it's just a flat-out disagreement, I can acknowledge that and move on.


But for now, I'mma disappear again.

 

[Deviljho]

Zelda boards! For quite a while now, I have despised your main! However, I wish to change that. I main Yoshi, and I find zelda awfully annoying to fight. Her lightning kicks seem to pop our of nowhere in the midst of my combos. Or for the sheer heck of spiting me. It is as if Zelda is saying to me: "Oh you're comboing, have my electric foot which kills you because you barely messed up". Please help me. I don't want to hate Zelda. Really. She just makes it too easy for me to. So I wish to learn the matchup to finally get revenge. This is nearly the last matchup I need to get a grasp of with my Yoshi. Thank you in advance for your help.

~Deviljho

 

[Downdraft]

I've said it before and will say it again. People who think that this is a legitimate issue are ********. They may make you feel helpless but come with drawbacks. Easily reactable punishment on shield, easy SDI on launch hit to avoid combos (imagine if you had a half second window to realize Sheik's tilts hit you and could prepare SDI - it's like that), sordidly poor in attack trades, and long animations mean they're unsafe on whiff. Despite all their strengths, they're not top tier moves in Zelda's hands, nor are they especially powerful then they hit to the end. The least they can do is work when they land, because 99% of the moves' power is focused in the last hit.

And people wonder why I don't listen to them.


I also missed this.

KDJ proved that a more minimal style with Zelda focused on normals can be effective. This does not equal a carte blanche to nerf things, rationalizing that they're not needed. Many things many characters have aren't needed but they're there for one reason or another and are even annoying in practice. Multiple styles with a character being effective is a good thing, which speaks highly of a character who has arguably the worst mobility in the game. Nerfing styles in favor of another is the definition of forced design, as zhime might tell you.

Taking away options from a character that arguably needs a little help or retooling only serves to make things easier for the competition and tougher for the Zelda mains. Decisions that are made shouldn't lean too far towards either side. What's best for both parties is the path that should be considered.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Zelda boards! For quite a while now, I have despised your main! However, I wish to change that. I main Yoshi, and I find zelda awfully annoying to fight. Her lightning kicks seem to pop our of nowhere in the midst of my combos. Or for the sheer heck of spiting me. It is as if Zelda is saying to me: "Oh you're comboing, have my electric foot which kills you because you barely messed up". Please help me. I don't want to hate Zelda. Really. She just makes it too easy for me to. So I wish to learn the matchup to finally get revenge. This is nearly the last matchup I need to get a grasp of with my Yoshi. Thank you in advance for your help.

~Deviljho

Yeah of course we'd be happy to help. Someone came in the other day asking for the exact same thing and created this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/tips-for-fighting-a-zelda.350917/#post-16523121 I would start looking there as I think you will find some helpful information. Also do you have any videos of yourself playing as Yoshi against a Zelda? That could really help me get an idea of how I could more effectively help you out.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Yeah of course we'd be happy to help. Someone came in the other day asking for the exact same thing and created this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/tips-for-fighting-a-zelda.350917/#post-16523121 I would start looking there as I think you will find some helpful information. Also do you have any videos of yourself playing as Yoshi against a Zelda. That could really help me get an idea of how I could more effectively help you out.

I purposely didn't make my "counter-Zelda" tactics too character specific.

 

[Deviljho]

Yeah of course we'd be happy to help. Someone came in the other day asking for the exact same thing and created this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/tips-for-fighting-a-zelda.350917/#post-16523121 I would start looking there as I think you will find some helpful information. Also do you have any videos of yourself playing as Yoshi against a Zelda. That could really help me get an idea of how I could more effectively help you out.

Thanks! I'll look at that. I don't have a video of me playing a Zelda though. I don't know if there's a way for me to record a vid using my Ipod and get it to you. However, I'll tell you how I deal with Zelda. Perhaps you can give me some advice on that.

Approach: I don't have too many approaches, but the few I do have are usually exausted by Zelda. Hucking eggs before approaching does nothing to help getting near her. I usually am an aggro player, but playing against zelda puts me on edge. So I end up playing more defensively, which is not my best suit. So I try going in with an approaching Bair(Multihit, fairly decent range) to also try end end up behind her. That puts me in a better place to do something like an f-tilt or utilt. But they dodge roll behind me and that is a no good. Approach is something I lack, and need ya'll to help me out with.

The fight: I try and drag my combos out as long as possible. However, many of my combos move in a linear fashion (horizontally or vertically). Dthrow -> fair/a lucky dair work only when it catches him off guard. I can use my egg roll to catch the Zelda off and get in some nice combos, but it is unreliable since, well, her range and priority ruin it if they predict it. I'm unsure about my other throws, but my guess is they don't have too much utility (Except maybe uthrow, cuz Zelda can't handle things being under her). Down Smash works very well to edge guard, but Zelda has such a fantastic recovery that the lower-angle knockback does nothing. Any combos I do pull off usually end due to DI and I am right in the range of a lightning kick or a naryus. Irritatingly. The problem is 99% of Yoshi's moveset is up close. And then egg throw. I try to mind my space, but somehow she has range everywhere. Bair seems to be one of Yohsi's few moves to beat her attacks. Again, after I've worked so hard to do work, I end up getting some 3 hit combo that annihilates my momentum. And maybe my stock. Again, a problem of mine. Her multi hits seem to have the most ridiculous priority, out prioritizing everything of mine it seems. And everything goes into another thing of hers. Very frustrating. What can you decipher out of that? Again, thanks in advance!

 

[The_NZA]

First I want to address Din's fire.
On the Ness specific strats, I don't know if you remember but quite a few times when we played and I absorbed a Din's, I was faired during absorb lag. It is my opinion that Ness shouldn't have absorb lag after magnet (he used to be able to cancel grounded magnet lag in 2.5, but whatever--I don't see the BR rallying behind something they intentionally nerfed). So yeah...5-8 frame fair/bair with a guaranteed kill on safe spacing around 70% is not worth competing against by absorbing 10% of damage from a Dins. You will see me absorb pretty often when dins is far away from a Zelda but that's rarely my problem.

Second, to talk about Dins itself.
It's not equatable to the missiles first and foremost because of kill power. Din's fire launches people up, while missiles send people at the Sakurai angle. I believe a din's fire on Ness on Pokemon Stadium 2 will kill around 100% especially if not DI'd. Really, anything that kills vertically is much more powerful because it is a threat wherever it is on the stage. I might expect a Samus to missile or charge blast me if I am hanging around the edge of a stage, but Din's scales in their explosion power to strong (on the ground) to really really strong (platforms). Personally, I think they should have a lower knockback growth that rewards Zelda knocking people into din's explosions without awarding Zelda a free kill for doing nothing but placing it and an opponent not taking the time to defuse it.

Here are the things I love about Din's fire (and I confidently believe this reflects public opinion):
1. the hitbox of a non-exploding dins which both controls space and gives combo potential to zelda in a creative way
2. Zeldas that throw/combo people into exploding dins (usually set high up, since all of zelda's moves basically send people that way)

I don't like it when:
1. A Zelda hedges her bets by shooting Dins at ground level, and an opponent makes a movement mistake which leads to a death around 100%. Hell, I'm not sure even Zelda players like getting kills this way.

On Nayru's love and cooldown: I understand that there are thin windows to punish a lot of moves like nayru's love. I think you overstate how "obvious" these windows are. It is good to force people to learn matchups, but honestly, mechanics should be both good, enjoyable, but also obvious. Zelda's neutral game is already one of the most mentally taxing matchups for anyone to play against. I mean, as Ness, I try my best to stop aerial approaching once my percent is above 60% because it feels like a gamble. So i stay close to the ground, trying to bait a nayrus for a punish, or mix up my approach. Doing all of this on top of defusing Dins is where the problems really begin.

I think Zelda is mostly fine but could use a little tweaking--I'm not that into the idea of totally transforming the character. I would rally around the following:
1. Improve the aesthetics of hitboxes so they reflect better where she is vulnerable and when things are happening
2. take away how much Zelda floats when she Dins. Think of how Ness uses pkfire in the air---there is no float, he continues to fall at his normal speeds. I think the float promotes Zelda placing dins in a campier less risky way AND aids her already strong recovery a bit too much
3. lower the Knockback growth of dins explosions (and maybe increase its base knockback?) so that situations that combo into dins explosions still result in kills without causing free kills to happen on stage grounded level.
4. Take out Love jumping because she's already hard enough to combo, and with the ability to teleport (with a hitbox) to the ground, she already has a mixup to challenge pepole who go hard for the combo

Overall, I think her recovery could use one of its options being taken away. I think one of the following would be good:
1. Either, she shouldn't be able to dins fire float her way down
2. OR she shouldn't have a hitbox at the end of farores wind

In its current incarnation, someone has to worry about this dins hitbox, AND take a guess at where she is going to be, AND rely on shield/invincibility frames in order to have a hope to punish her. Personally, I'd rather they get rid of the ending hitbox on farores, because the starting hit box has some cool applications (as KDJ showed).

I would also suggest (although I am not convinced it is necessary) that Zelda lose her critical hit kick and instead slightly buff her sweetspot kick. Crit kick is NOT hard to land in the hands of anyone good, and it has a very harmful effect on every matchup it is present in. If any of you play Starcraft, you might know of what the creation of the Immortal did to Terran Mech. Essentially, the creators of SC2 created a unit that hard countered siege tanks so badly that instead of people building immortals in response to siege tanks, players just stopped building siege tanks altogether because it was too risky an endeavor to commit that way. Essentially, the invention of the immortal took away the option for players to ever use a mech play style.

You all talk about how you don't want to lose any options, but have you ever considered how your opponents feel? As a Ness, once my percent counter is above 70%, I refuse to be in the air laterally to Zelda. There's no spacing game I can play, no weaving that will ever make me win the horizontal engagement with any consistency, its just far too risky to ever consider being next to her in the air. So I don't jump. Think about that for a second--for over half the game, I don't ever dare jump next to zelda because of the omnipresent threat. Maybe its good for a character to have something so polarizing that it forces people to act a certain way (I mean, peach's dsmash similarly in concept scares crouch canceller). I think my issue is Zelda has just too damn much of it.

With that said, I definitely advocate for Zelda to receive buffs in exchange for some of these changes. But her design is super fragile because if you make her comboing game any better and open up the possibility to combo into crit fair/bair with any consistency, you've essentially broke the character. I don't know what they can do to her that doesn't cater to the polarized corners she's been designed into.

 

[BJN39]

^ I will say I actually do enjoy any sort of Din's explosion KOs, because they're so rare. It feels fun. But I do get that it's less than fun to accidentally get blown to bits by them.

As for the changes you suggest, Ironically, I mentioned ways to make Din's fire and Nayru easier to indicate, but you shrugged them off because it wasn't worth it... Or something. IDR what exactly you said, but you rejected them.

I'd be fine with the KB change to the explosions. Her recovery to me is fine though, she dies incredibly quickly off the screen anyways. Besides, to effectively get off a Din while recovering, you need to be really far out. Din's floatiness bcuz melee. No-one would use the MELEE version over the edge though. Pfft. :V The teleburn hitbox is godsend for Zelda's recovery, and its removal would not bode well. With ANY Zelda. Also, as someone who likes playing Brawl, I like very much that Zelda could somewhat keep things from Brawl like all of her aerials high power hitboxes, and teleburn. (Fun fact: The little electric hand hitbox on Zelda's UAir was inspired by female wireframe's UAir.)

 

[The_NZA]

^ I will say I actually do enjoy any sort of Din's explosion KOs, because they're so rare. It feels fun. But I do get that it's less than fun to accidentally get blown to bits by them.

As for the changes you suggest, Ironically, I mentioned ways to make Din's fire and Nayru easier to indicate, but you shrugged them off because it wasn't worth it... Or something. IDR what exactly you said, but you rejected them.

I'd be fine with the KB change to the explosions. Her recovery to me is fine though, she dies incredibly quickly off the screen anyways. Besides, to effectively get off a Din while recovering, you need to be really far out. Din's floatiness bcuz melee. No-one would use the MELEE version over the edge though. Pfft. :V The teleburn hitbox is godsend for Zelda's recovery, and its removal would not bode well. With ANY Zelda. Also, as someone who likes playing Brawl, I like very much that Zelda could somewhat keep things from Brawl like all of her aerials high power hitboxes, and teleburn. (Fun fact: The little electric hand hitbox on Zelda's UAir was inspired by female wireframe's UAir.)

I don't remember shrugging off any aesthetic change ideas. Mind reposting them and I can tell you why i posted the opinion I did?

I think you underestimate what dying quickly off screen means when most characters have no followup to kill optoins...Love jump makes it so that many characters have to rely on a hard read to get a kill (which against Zelda's robust defensive options equates often to a gamble). Teleburn is a godsend becaues it helps her recovery...it doesn't make it healthy per se. Its just an added get out of jail free card on top of Dins aiding a recovery and I think both added together are an unecessary insurance policy.

As far as momentum dins fire or teleburn, I think "because brawl" is about as good an argument as "because melee". Many of these characters have been so improved that they don't need all of the utility of their previous kits. Ness's dair lost some of its meteor power and lost its autocancel frames, but he got an instant dair. Zelda's recovery is already the best its ever been. Does she need to be so untouchable in every circumstance?

 

[ShadowGanon]

First I want to address Din's fire.
On the Ness specific strats, I don't know if you remember but quite a few times when we played and I absorbed a Din's, I was faired during absorb lag. It is my opinion that Ness shouldn't have absorb lag after magnet (he used to be able to cancel grounded magnet lag in 2.5, but whatever--I don't see the BR rallying behind something they intentionally nerfed). So yeah...5-8 frame fair/bair with a guaranteed kill on safe spacing around 70% is not worth competing against by absorbing 10% of damage from a Dins. You will see me absorb pretty often when dins is far away from a Zelda but that's rarely my problem.

Second, to talk about Dins itself.
It's not equatable to the missiles first and foremost because of kill power. Din's fire launches people up, while missiles send people at the Sakurai angle. I believe a din's fire on Ness on Pokemon Stadium 2 will kill around 100% especially if not DI'd. Really, anything that kills vertically is much more powerful because it is a threat wherever it is on the stage. I might expect a Samus to missile or charge blast me if I am hanging around the edge of a stage, but Din's scales in their explosion power to strong (on the ground) to really really strong (platforms). Personally, I think they should have a lower knockback growth that rewards Zelda knocking people into din's explosions without awarding Zelda a free kill for doing nothing but placing it and an opponent not taking the time to defuse it.

Here are the things I love about Din's fire (and I confidently believe this reflects public opinion):
1. the hitbox of a non-exploding dins which both controls space and gives combo potential to zelda in a creative way
2. Zeldas that throw/combo people into exploding dins (usually set high up, since all of zelda's moves basically send people that way)

I don't like it when:
1. A Zelda hedges her bets by shooting Dins at ground level, and an opponent makes a movement mistake which leads to a death around 100%. Hell, I'm not sure even Zelda players like getting kills this way.

On Nayru's love and cooldown: I understand that there are thin windows to punish a lot of moves like nayru's love. I think you overstate how "obvious" these windows are. It is good to force people to learn matchups, but honestly, mechanics should be both good, enjoyable, but also obvious. Zelda's neutral game is already one of the most mentally taxing matchups for anyone to play against. I mean, as Ness, I try my best to stop aerial approaching once my percent is above 60% because it feels like a gamble. So i stay close to the ground, trying to bait a nayrus for a punish, or mix up my approach. Doing all of this on top of defusing Dins is where the problems really begin.

I think Zelda is mostly fine but could use a little tweaking--I'm not that into the idea of totally transforming the character. I would rally around the following:
1. Improve the aesthetics of hitboxes so they reflect better where she is vulnerable and when things are happening
2. take away how much Zelda floats when she Dins. Think of how Ness uses pkfire in the air---there is no float, he continues to fall at his normal speeds. I think the float promotes Zelda placing dins in a campier less risky way AND aids her already strong recovery a bit too much
3. lower the Knockback growth of dins explosions (and maybe increase its base knockback?) so that situations that combo into dins explosions still result in kills without causing free kills to happen on stage grounded level.
4. Take out Love jumping because she's already hard enough to combo, and with the ability to teleport (with a hitbox) to the ground, she already has a mixup to challenge pepole who go hard for the combo

Overall, I think her recovery could use one of its options being taken away. I think one of the following would be good:
1. Either, she shouldn't be able to dins fire float her way down
2. OR she shouldn't have a hitbox at the end of farores wind

In its current incarnation, someone has to worry about this dins hitbox, AND take a guess at where she is going to be, AND rely on shield/invincibility frames in order to have a hope to punish her. Personally, I'd rather they get rid of the ending hitbox on farores, because the starting hit box has some cool applications (as KDJ showed).

I would also suggest (although I am not convinced it is necessary) that Zelda lose her critical hit kick and instead slightly buff her sweetspot kick. Crit kick is NOT hard to land in the hands of anyone good, and it has a very harmful effect on every matchup it is present in. If any of you play Starcraft, you might know of what the creation of the Immortal did to Terran Mech. Essentially, the creators of SC2 created a unit that hard countered siege tanks so badly that instead of people building immortals in response to siege tanks, players just stopped building siege tanks altogether because it was too risky an endeavor to commit that way. Essentially, the invention of the immortal took away the option for players to ever use a mech play style.

You all talk about how you don't want to lose any options, but have you ever considered how your opponents feel? As a Ness, once my percent counter is above 70%, I refuse to be in the air laterally to Zelda. There's no spacing game I can play, no weaving that will ever make me win the horizontal engagement with any consistency, its just far too risky to ever consider being next to her in the air. So I don't jump. Think about that for a second--for over half the game, I don't ever dare jump next to zelda because of the omnipresent threat. Maybe its good for a character to have something so polarizing that it forces people to act a certain way (I mean, peach's dsmash similarly in concept scares crouch canceller). I think my issue is Zelda has just too damn much of it.

With that said, I definitely advocate for Zelda to receive buffs in exchange for some of these changes. But her design is super fragile because if you make her comboing game any better and open up the possibility to combo into crit fair/bair with any consistency, you've essentially broke the character. I don't know what they can do to her that doesn't cater to the polarized corners she's been designed into.

In my personal opinion, the only tweaks Zelda needs are knock back decreases on the super sweet spotted b-airs and f-airs (Make them a little less powerful than the Knee of Justice since you do have two, so one of them will almost always be fresh), and slightly (emphasis on slightly) fewer invulnerability frames on Nayru's. That's it. Well, other than maybe a knock back decrease on exploding Din's...... I personally am hardly ever affected by those. So I don't really have a problem with them. But seeing as other people do, I might as well mention them.

These are all very slight tweaks to Zelda. No need for meta game breaking change.

 

[The_NZA]

In my personal opinion, the only tweaks Zelda needs are knock back decreases on the super sweet spotted b-airs and f-airs (Make them a little less powerful than the Knee of Justice since you do have two, so one of them will almost always be fresh), and slightly (emphasis on slightly) fewer invulnerability frames on Nayru's. That's it. Well, other than maybe a knock back decrease on exploding Din's......

These are all very slight tweaks to Zelda. No need for meta game breaking change.

I agree that they don't need any metagame breaking changes. Btw, stale moves in PM only have decrease damage (not power). I don't know if it was intentional, but I sort of deduced from your post that you might think knockback staleness is a thing in this game. Apologies if I interpreted incorrectly.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I agree that they don't need any metagame breaking changes. Btw, stale moves in PM only have decrease damage (not power). I don't know if it was intentional, but I sort of deduced from your post that you might think knockback staleness is a thing in this game. Apologies if I interpreted incorrectly.

Oh..... I thought that it affected knock back too. Evidently I was wrong. I guess you learn something new every day.

What do you Zelda mains think of the tweaks I mentioned?

^ Skip that. This is a Balance and MU learning thread. ^

 

[TimeSmash]

Just jumping in to say I fully support the Teleburn staying in. If you space well, it's very easy to avoid, and I'm pretty sure it can be countered by things like Marth's Down B. Plus, it helps serve as an approach to a character who lacks few of them

 

[The_NZA]

Just jumping in to say I fully support the Teleburn staying in. If you space well, it's very easy to avoid, and I'm pretty sure it can be countered by things like Marth's Down B. Plus, it helps serve as an approach to a character who lacks few of them

What if teleburn was in if you did a groudned teleport? I mean, its not really an approach any other way.

 

[TimeSmash]

I see your point, but it really aids in her recovery from above and in general. Most of the cast has a damaging UpB, and Zelda's (with learning the correct spacing) is quite predictable, but it can serve as a surprise or mix-up in the air. Plus, if she whiffs her aim, she can be easily spiked/meteored. And I will agree with you using it as an approach in the air is heavily limited, but it has its uses.

Does this come off as rude? I feel like it does somehow but that's not the tone I'm trying to convey at all! ><

Edit: Not EXACTLY related but Farore's has incredible startup lag, Zelda can be interrupted so many times by a persistent opponent that by the time she can safely UpB, she can't reach the ledge. Or simply someone will smash her off screen before she can disappear

 

[The_NZA]

I see your point, but it really aids in her recovery from above and in general. Most of the cast has a damaging UpB, and Zelda's (with learning the correct spacing) is quite predictable, but it can serve as a surprise or mix-up in the air. Plus, if she whiffs her aim, she can be easily spiked/meteored. And I will agree with you using it as an approach in the air is heavily limited, but it has its uses.

Does this come off as rude? I feel like it does somehow but that's not the tone I'm trying to convey at all! ><

Edit: Not EXACTLY related but Farore's has incredible startup lag, Zelda can be interrupted so many times by a persistent opponent that by the time she can safely UpB, she can't reach the ledge. Or simply someone will smash her off screen before she can disappear

Well, to edge guard her, you have to jump off stage and hit her during her startup. Which is viable--i've done it. But Zelda's edge guard game is especially good so if you do end up wiffing on her, you are in a pretty vulnerable position.

I don't know, I think her recovery is already unpredictable, untelegraphed on hwere she's going to go, and she doesn't have that much lag if she lands on the stage (I believe). Her distance is great, she gets to throw a projectile that can be directed anywhere while she recovers, and she floats horizontally pretty well with her weight and din's fire. I think having to play the guessing game against her recovery makes edge guarding her hard enough, especialy when combined by the dins she can throw out on her way back. The hitbox at the end is a bit too much frosting on the cake.

 

[The_NZA]

Basically, I don't like fighting against Zelda often because

1. I can't approach her aerially once i'm past 70%
2. I have to create an opening but most of the options available to me are deleted due to risk
3. The longer I stall to find an opening the more openings she cuts off with dins fire
4. Once I do get in, I can't combo her due to Love jumping + her weight + the random frame 5/8 fair/bair that will instakill me
5. Once enough of my options are cut off where all I'm reduced to is dash and wavedash back, she can easily tell when i'll commit and just red panic button me
6. Because of all of the above, to get a killing hit requires the hardest of reads (since I have no good leadups to kills)
7. Once I land a hard read and she's gone away, It's insanely difficult to cover all of the options of her recovery to turn a stray hit to a kill
8. I have to do all of the above while defusing dins fires and making sure I don't get caught in the stray explosion of one

That's a summary of why I feel like people don't like this character. She suffocates you out of your play style, and unlike Jigglypuff, I'm not convinced she exactly create space for a new play style or a creative matchup. People say she makes you play a different game than Smash. I think she just makes her opponents stop playing with their full options, period. Its not new or different--its watered down.

 

[TimeSmash]

Reserved for a response haha. Wish me luck on my Molecular Bio test

Edit:

1. I can't approach her aerially once i'm past 70%
2. I have to create an opening but most of the options available to me are deleted due to risk
3. The longer I stall to find an opening the more openings she cuts off with dins fire
4. Once I do get in, I can't combo her due to Love jumping + her weight + the random frame 5/8 fair/bair that will instakill me
5. Once enough of my options are cut off where all I'm reduced to is dash and wavedash back, she can easily tell when i'll commit and just red panic button me
6. Because of all of the above, to get a killing hit requires the hardest of reads (since I have no good leadups to kills)
7. Once I land a hard read and she's gone away, It's insanely difficult to cover all of the options of her recovery to turn a stray hit to a kill
8. I have to do all of the above while defusing dins fires and making sure I don't get caught in the stray explosion of one

1. You most certainly can but you can just rush in. If there's space between you and Zelda, and she's setting up a Din's in the air, she is vulnerable to most anything and the endlag on that attack is horrible. Apply pressure and don't give her room to breathe.

2. A big thing is to keep her up in the air, as she has very little options when above you. Something done often is UpBing down to safety, but this can be baited to an extent, not to mention the forever startup lag she has before she disappears

3. Then don't stall against her. Rush in when she is casting Din's because she is super vulnerable. PLUS while Din's is moving it should pass through you (someone clarify this), The actual hitbox will appear when she sets it.

4. Again, keep her above you. Ness has tools at his disposal to do this.

5. This is more general than character specific. You can bait her out, and even though Nayur's is a common GTFO move, the whole thing can be sheilded, as well as hit from above. If you think she's going to kick, bait it and punish.

6. Just don't let her cast Din's a lot and when she does, rush in and mess her up. Again, something endlaggy like Din's or Nayru's can allow for you to grab and Bthrow her away. If she jumps, you know she will kick, Nair, Nayru's or Teleport. Bait the kicks, wait out Nayru's, take advantage that she takes forever to disappear for her UpB, take advantage of Ness' clear speed advantage over Zelda.

7. Ness' Dair is a spike, if you think she's going to try to sweetspot the ledge, spike her! Using Din's to get back to the stage is risky, and yes she can cast a fireball on the edge, but you can destroy this or move around it to get her. Again UpB might have good recovery, but both its hitboxes are weak and can be outpriortized or at least clank with a lot of things.

 

[jtm94]

1. I can't approach him/her aerially once i'm past 70% (less for mario)
2. I have to create an opening but most of the options available to me are deleted due to risk
3. The longer I stall to find an opening the more openings she cuts off with dins fire/boomerang/razor leaf/fireball
5. Once enough of my options are cut off where all I'm reduced to is dash and wavedash back, she can easily tell when i'll commit and just red panic button me
7. Once I land a hard read and she's gone away, It's insanely difficult to cover all of the options of her recovery to turn a stray hit to a kill(less for Mario)
8. I have to do all of the above while defusing dins fires/avoiding boomerang/seadbomb + razorleaf/Mario

So take out the 2 about comboing and that is exactly how I feel about Link, Ivysaur, and Mario with any character I use.

You act as though a lot of this is Zelda specific, and some of it is, but I literately cannot be in the air against Link or Ivysaur because UpB will KO me ridiculously early and you can't dodge boomerang or fireballs in the air.

But on a more serious note
I feel that a lot of your complaints are mental blocks, you can definitely approach her, just not unsafely, it's similar to any character with a fast/strong KO move. Her kick is stronger than Falcon's knee because she doesn't have to speed to guarantee it off of hits like he can.(she can do stuff at early percents, but it won't KO)

Her edgeguarding is quite bad outside of kick, she can't gimp people, dins saves those who fly into it. I could see you being upset with dins eating PK Thunder as you recover because I have done that to Ness before.

Edgeguarding her is much simpler than you make it out to be. There is not always enough time to cast a dins fire to the edge while recovering, you can squeeze it in when recovering near stage level, but it forces her to recover low. What you do is grab the edge and as soon as she begins to teleport, you plank and refresh you ledge invincibility. This way she either falls flat after running into the edge, or if she can squeak to the stage you wavedash on and grab her so you can use your back throw to annihilate her.

I really don't like the idea of readily changing her for troubles you face when using solely Ness against her. Maybe the MU is just really bad? I know for sure that I struggle to take any amount of stocks off of Link, period, with Zelda.

I truly wish to help you beat Zelda so you feel more comfortable in the MU. Just stay at a mid-range just outside of kick range and bait out her moves, nothing she can do is safe at that range, but you have to be careful to so you react to what she throws out. Dins is absolutely purely unsafe at a mid-range distance, if she goes to toss one out crush her, grab her, do whatever. The safest things she can do are LC Nayru's, which isn't entirely safe because aerial Nayru's has less invincibility than grounded for less end lag. I may try to have a friend play Zelda and try to see what the MU may be like from your end, I know someone with a decent Ness, I will face them as well.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

This information might help people deal with Teleburn. It has enough end lag for both OoS options to work as well as avoiding it with movement and then punishing it. It can also be Crouch Canceled. I'll add that into the original post if it isn't there yet.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Updated thread with new information regarding how to handle the Teleburn from Farore's Wind (ending hitbox of teleport).

*Sorry for the wait NZA. Nayru's Love aerial land cancel has 8 frames of cool down time.

 

[Wavebuster]

How to deal with Teleburn - attack her. Teleburn does 4 damage and trivial KB, and doesn't make her invulnerable. You can easily hit her at the same time with noncommittal aerials that won't leave you wide open if she doesn't aim for you directly. If you're in range of Teleburn when she recovers, you're more than likely in range to go offstage and edgeguard her directly since Farore's Wind does not start up quickly.

If this is about Teleburns from onstage when both players are at neutral, get better at the game. It's one of the worst things Zelda could be doing as far as risk/reward and you're only getting threatened by it because you're giving it far more respect than it deserves.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Updated thread with new information regarding how to handle the Teleburn from Farore's Wind (ending hitbox of teleport).

*Sorry for the wait NZA. Nayru's Love aerial land cancel has 8 frames of cool down time.

Hey, would you mind organizing the original post a little more. It's kind of hard to follow when everything is all mushed together. Instead of this:

• D-Smash. This moves comes out fast and is designed to give Zelda space from opponents breathing down her neck. It is easily punishable on whiff. It also can be used for shield push scenarios. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.
• Up-Smash. This is one of Zelda's moves that allows for a further combo depending on the character. It comes out pretty quickly but is easily punished on whiff or on shield. It also only attacks where her hand reaches in the air so characters have to be right on her/immediately next to her if they are going to be caught from the ground. It can also be ducked under by some characters. It can be SDI'd out of if the opponent is on the very tip of the hitbox right when it first connects.

Could it look more like this:

• D-Smash. This moves comes out fast and is designed to give Zelda space from opponents breathing down her neck. It is easily punishable on whiff. It also can be used for shield push scenarios. Little to no combo potential without aid of a Din's.

• Up-Smash. This is one of Zelda's moves that allows for a further combo depending on the character. It comes out pretty quickly but is easily punished on whiff or on shield. It also only attacks where her hand reaches in the air so characters have to be right on her/immediately next to her if they are going to be caught from the ground. It can also be ducked under by some characters. It can be SDI'd out of if the opponent is on the very tip of the hitbox right when it first connects.

Wow. Those quote boxes really don't do it justice. But anyways, could you put an space between each move?

 

[EmptySky00]

Basically, I don't like fighting against Zelda often because

1. I can't approach her aerially once i'm past 70%
2. I have to create an opening but most of the options available to me are deleted due to risk
3. The longer I stall to find an opening the more openings she cuts off with dins fire
4. Once I do get in, I can't combo her due to Love jumping + her weight + the random frame 5/8 fair/bair that will instakill me
5. Once enough of my options are cut off where all I'm reduced to is dash and wavedash back, she can easily tell when i'll commit and just red panic button me
6. Because of all of the above, to get a killing hit requires the hardest of reads (since I have no good leadups to kills)
7. Once I land a hard read and she's gone away, It's insanely difficult to cover all of the options of her recovery to turn a stray hit to a kill
8. I have to do all of the above while defusing dins fires and making sure I don't get caught in the stray explosion of one

That's a summary of why I feel like people don't like this character. She suffocates you out of your play style, and unlike Jigglypuff, I'm not convinced she exactly create space for a new play style or a creative matchup. People say she makes you play a different game than Smash. I think she just makes her opponents stop playing with their full options, period. Its not new or different--its watered down.

1. Don't approach unsafely. Space her properly. If you get kicked, you made a bad decision and weren't controlling your space between you and her properly.
2. Of course you have to create an opening. She's a zoning character. That's how they function. Implement your options differently. Bait her out. Pressure her once you get in.
3. Which can then effortlessly be cut through if you don't like the places they're at. Shield them. It neutralizes their hitbox until the explosion (which you shouldn't be getting hit by anyway). Better yet, you know how in your scenario she's placing Din's while you're looking for an opening? Do me a favor. Go into training mode, actually use Din's fire, and notice how long it takes you to act out of it. Her setting Din's is your opening. Congratulations.
4. If she love jumps, harass her and make it hell for her to get back to the ground. What does she have that effectively hits below her? I'd answer that for you. And if you go for unguaranteed combos at kick range against her, what do you really expect will happen? The same thing applies to Peach and her Nair, or any other character with a quick powerful aerial. Bait it out. Use prediction. Combo her at a distance where the strong kick is null and void. If you get kicked out of a combo, you were overextending or doing something you shouldn't have been doing.
5. You respect Din's far too much. It doesn't cut off options as hard as you say it does. Also, read the panic button. If she can easily tell when you'll commit, you can easily tell when she'll panic button due to the commitment. Be creative and less transparent.
6. That's a you/your character problem. Not a Zelda problem. Null.
7. Use reads. She's not the only character whose recovery isn't that easy to edgeguard. Learn to deal with it and you'll be better off. I edgeguard her all the time. I may not have 100% success, but if I miss the edgeguard it's because I did something wrong.
8. Sounds like you're letting her catch you into pointless actions. The explosions aren't stray. You should have enough awareness to tell when they'll explode. If you get caught in it, it's your fault. Also, don't let her set all the Din's. You can be less passive. Are you going to let a Fox laser spam you? Or are you going to do something about it? You going to let a Snake set mines everywhere? An Ivysaur charge Solarbeam? And all the other things? No? Then why should Zelda be any different?

It's irritating when people see something that can be construed as "effective" in some sense and automatically attribute it to being overpowered or in need of changing instead of trying to improve as a player. Sometimes the thing in question is legitimately stupid, I'll agree, but this is not one of those times. People overrate Zelda like hell.

I agree that they don't need any metagame breaking changes. Btw, stale moves in PM only have decrease damage (not power). I don't know if it was intentional, but I sort of deduced from your post that you might think knockback staleness is a thing in this game. Apologies if I interpreted incorrectly.

Reducing damage indirectly reduces knockback if I recall correctly. In Brawl the knockback + damage degradation made it ridiculously potent.

 

[ZombieBran]

Zoners gawnna zone

My friend swears that Zelda is broken in PM. I just tell him to learn the MU. He lets me get away with far too many things.

Din's Fire really isn't that scary. It is very easy to get rid of and she still has like 6000 frames of lag when casting it.

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah, I've pretty much accepted that this is as far as this discussion is going to go. If you've been following what I've been saying, you know for a fact that I have pointed out how other characters do some of what I've articulated (every character forces you to play their game a little bit) but the major difference is Zelda does it so much more than anyone else and has so much more of it. Many characters besides falco now have effective projectiles, and if you follow me elsewhere on these forums, you know that I am okay with that. A lot of people control the pace of a match to the likings of their own character. But Zelda differs from the other guys because of the pure quantity of ways she changes the game/removes options from the opponent:

You all talk about how you don't want to lose any options, but have you ever considered how your opponents feel? As a Ness, once my percent counter is above 70%, I refuse to be in the air laterally to Zelda. There's no spacing game I can play, no weaving that will ever make me win the horizontal engagement with any consistency, its just far too risky to ever consider being next to her in the air. So I don't jump. Think about that for a second--for over half the game, I don't ever dare jump next to zelda because of the omnipresent threat. Maybe its good for a character to have something so polarizing that it forces people to act a certain way (I mean, peach's dsmash similarly in concept scares crouch canceller). I think my issue is Zelda has just too damn much of it.

If you break down a match to phases/stages, there would be
1. The neutral game (movement)
2. The space control game (projectiles, asserting dominance with range, funneling your opponent into a set of viable options)
3. Your edge guard game
4. Your combo game
5. Your killing game (blastzones)
6. Your recovery game (or your opponents edge guard game)
7. Your defensive game (your opponents combo game)

She diverges so drastically from the rest of the cast that its jarring (and in some cases, bad).

1. She doesn't have to move and most of the time moving away is superior, her space control between the threat of fairs/bairs in kill percent and dins forces the opponent to really account for everything or take terrible damage. 2. Her space control game requires a ton of concentration from the person receiving it as they have to check on the timings of dins, clank htem, defuse them, run away, etc. At the same time, they have to solve the Nayru's love guessing game. 3. Her edge guard game is one of the most "normal" things about her, in that its strong. You can say "all she has is fair and dins" but thats a lot like saying all marth has is Fsmash and Dair--it doesn't make it any less effective. Not to mention her smashes are disgusting in their startup/cooldown for good option selects/edgeguard coverage. 4. Her combo game is incredibly weak except when paired with dins (this is more or less normal and fun to experience). 5. Her kill game is nasty and is incredibly abnormal (between dins kills and super fast and strong crit kick, it blurs the lines between gimp and kill). 6. Her recovery game is crazy strong, between love jumping, dins hover (which fine, makes you recover horizontal to the stage or low. TBH most people knock her at the sakurai angle and she gets sent pretty damn high and can usually place a dins). Teleburn has a counter, but that doesn't mean it doesn't add protection an extra layer of protection on top of low recovery lag and a complete untelegraphed recovery. Again, she is one of the more unusual characters to edge guard. 7. Her combo defense game is probably best in the game (even above jiggs i'd argue) because she not only has a floatie weight, but via love jumping, she can escape pressure and combos even Jiggs cant.

You can tell me to get gud, and believe me--this is a matchup I keep working to learn and improving in. I am NOT inexperienced nor do I fail to understand how she "works" so lets just go ahead and throw that myth out the window. The primary argument coming from the Zelda camp is "people need to just learn our character and all the complainers just haven't taken the time to learn the matchup". Some of you need to begin to realize its not just melee players who haven't played pm or pm noobs lodging these complaints. Between KDJ, Rizner, Zhime, Wolf, and at least 2 locals who are good, I have played more high level Zeldas than most and I've even looked at the frame data for most of the moves I have tried to figure out. I have held 3 hour analysis sessions with Ness mains + Zhime to better understand this matchup and my mistakes. I'm walking away with the same analysis.

Zelda changes the way the game is played at phases of a match, much like other characters (as others pointed out, Link/Ivy/Mario change #2 drastically for hte opponent and force them to play the mario/ivy/link game). But Zelda changes the game away from its "normal" point far more frequently and (in most cases) more drastically than any other member of the cast. That is the underlying reason why she is probably the most complained about character of 3.0.

With that said, maybe if Ness gets his first balance patch in a year, he'll have more tools to bait a Zelda to make mistakes and suddenly Ness won't have as big an issue with all space control characters (Zelda, Marth, Link). Until then, i'll keep learning and maybe I will try to use Ike more in this matchup. Thanks again, everyone, for the help.

 

[ZombieBran]

I have no doubt that some characters have an amazingly hard time against Zelda. Those characters tend to be some of the less stellar ones, too.
Ideally, the solution to that would be to buff those characters and give them more tools to deal with Zelda's omnipresence and other keep away characters.

I don't think the solution is to nerf a character who is considered solid mid tier at best (outside of the lulzy CT list).
Now, I admit an overhaul wouldn't be bad provided "overhaul" here does not just mean getting rid of Din's Fire mine properties and slowing her down. Because this is sadly what a lot of people want.

I'm biased because I think PM Zelda is one of the most unique/fun characters in Smash Bros history. Changing her into something more like everyone else in PM would take a huge chunk of the enjoyability I get from the mod.

You see this in any game with a pinpoint zoner. The problem is that this is entirely new for most PM players and many characters just don't have the tools they need to outplay her at her own game. Of course, and I'm not accusing anyone specifically, some of the blame goes to the players who's character can more than deal with Zelda but they just haven't learned how to.

 

[Lil Puddin]

The only fair way to nerf Zelda at this point is to mess with her mines somehow. If the devs were to slow her down, she would be total garbage. Her mines leave her wide open, and they do not deal a lot of damage if you touch them. The damage racks up but if you run into one while she is casting another by accident, you are good to go. Her mines are her greatest asset for zoning and also her greatest weakness thanks to the delay.

The better control lets me jump and throw it right down below me to mess with people, then hit them with a lightning stomp. It's hilarious.

She is forever middle tier as she is. So instead of nerfing or buffing her, how about using her to gauge who really needs to be buffed? I don't think you could effectively use her to decide who needs nerfing, though. =/

 

[Zerudahime]

She doesnt need to be nerfed.
you are all insane.
completely nuts.

 

[otheusrex]

NZA, I feel for you. Don't give up! Don't take this the wrong way and I don't want you to feel antogonized, but sometimes certain players are just better than you and it's not about the character that they're using. Even if you struggle and work really really hard to catch up to these players, they are also improving, which can make it seem like you aren't making any headway when in fact you are. There are plenty of zelda players who get together in a skype group of all different skill levels and I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to play you, if you'd like.

Another point, and this is to people in general, is that I hope people can appreciate what an awkward situation it is to defend one's character's right to be decent while at the same time reach out to opponents and give them advice on how to beat you. In my most masochistic moments, I fantasize about an awful melee-level zelda in which no one would cheapen you're hard, hard earned victories.

I don't think everything about zelda's current design is perfect, but I don't want to see a zelda that can't do anything out of the ordinary either. In my opinion, mewtwo's design and presentation should be the model for all PM characters in spirit: "let's make this character f#cking rad!". Finally, in regards to zelda forcing the opponent to play her game more that other's, I just want to say: Fox.

 

[TechMage299]

PM Zelda as a level 9 CPU is crazy good, can't even take her down first try with a fox or falco!

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Yeah, I've pretty much accepted that this is as far as this discussion is going to go. If you've been following what I've been saying, you know for a fact that I have pointed out how other characters do some of what I've articulated (every character forces you to play their game a little bit) but the major difference is Zelda does it so much more than anyone else and has so much more of it. Many characters besides falco now have effective projectiles, and if you follow me elsewhere on these forums, you know that I am okay with that. A lot of people control the pace of a match to the likings of their own character. But Zelda differs from the other guys because of the pure quantity of ways she changes the game/removes options from the opponent:



If you break down a match to phases/stages, there would be
1. The neutral game (movement)
2. The space control game (projectiles, asserting dominance with range, funneling your opponent into a set of viable options)
3. Your edge guard game
4. Your combo game
5. Your killing game (blastzones)
6. Your recovery game (or your opponents edge guard game)
7. Your defensive game (your opponents combo game)

She diverges so drastically from the rest of the cast that its jarring (and in some cases, bad).

1. She doesn't have to move and most of the time moving away is superior, her space control between the threat of fairs/bairs in kill percent and dins forces the opponent to really account for everything or take terrible damage. 2. Her space control game requires a ton of concentration from the person receiving it as they have to check on the timings of dins, clank htem, defuse them, run away, etc. At the same time, they have to solve the Nayru's love guessing game. 3. Her edge guard game is one of the most "normal" things about her, in that its strong. You can say "all she has is fair and dins" but thats a lot like saying all marth has is Fsmash and Dair--it doesn't make it any less effective. Not to mention her smashes are disgusting in their startup/cooldown for good option selects/edgeguard coverage. 4. Her combo game is incredibly weak except when paired with dins (this is more or less normal and fun to experience). 5. Her kill game is nasty and is incredibly abnormal (between dins kills and super fast and strong crit kick, it blurs the lines between gimp and kill). 6. Her recovery game is crazy strong, between love jumping, dins hover (which fine, makes you recover horizontal to the stage or low. TBH most people knock her at the sakurai angle and she gets sent pretty damn high and can usually place a dins). Teleburn has a counter, but that doesn't mean it doesn't add protection an extra layer of protection on top of low recovery lag and a complete untelegraphed recovery. Again, she is one of the more unusual characters to edge guard. 7. Her combo defense game is probably best in the game (even above jiggs i'd argue) because she not only has a floatie weight, but via love jumping, she can escape pressure and combos even Jiggs cant.

You can tell me to get gud, and believe me--this is a matchup I keep working to learn and improving in. I am NOT inexperienced nor do I fail to understand how she "works" so lets just go ahead and throw that myth out the window. The primary argument coming from the Zelda camp is "people need to just learn our character and all the complainers just haven't taken the time to learn the matchup". Some of you need to begin to realize its not just melee players who haven't played pm or pm noobs lodging these complaints. Between KDJ, Rizner, Zhime, Wolf, and at least 2 locals who are good, I have played more high level Zeldas than most and I've even looked at the frame data for most of the moves I have tried to figure out. I have held 3 hour analysis sessions with Ness mains + Zhime to better understand this matchup and my mistakes. I'm walking away with the same analysis.

Zelda changes the way the game is played at phases of a match, much like other characters (as others pointed out, Link/Ivy/Mario change #2 drastically for hte opponent and force them to play the mario/ivy/link game). But Zelda changes the game away from its "normal" point far more frequently and (in most cases) more drastically than any other member of the cast. That is the underlying reason why she is probably the most complained about character of 3.0.

With that said, maybe if Ness gets his first balance patch in a year, he'll have more tools to bait a Zelda to make mistakes and suddenly Ness won't have as big an issue with all space control characters (Zelda, Marth, Link). Until then, i'll keep learning and maybe I will try to use Ike more in this matchup. Thanks again, everyone, for the help.

NZA, thank you for acknowledging multiple areas of thought in regards to this character discussion. I'm sure it is very appreciated by any Zelda users. There is one quote you made that I want to examine and that is, "That is the underlying reason why she is probably the most complained about character of 3.0." I noticed you mentioned probably which I really appreciate. I don't feel that Zelda actually is the most complained about character of 3.0 or even remotely close to it. There have been comments about her on Smashboards but we have to remember that Smashboards itself actually represents a very limited portion of the entire PM community. I bring this up because I know myself as well as others have been to other sites and all of course have different local scenes. There are plenty of places where Zelda is NOT complained about hardly at all, and polls that show she is actually a pretty well liked character within the PM community (within the top half if not higher). I think it is important to remember that this community is huge as well as spread all over the place. We have to be careful not to base our conceptions on one single place as this very well will lead to erroneous conclusions. I am not suggesting that you are falling into such a situation. Your comment just got me thinking. lol This objective fact would also be very important for those that are in control of any developing situation that wish to support the community, such as the PMBR in this case.

 

[Garde Noir]

NZA, thank you for acknowledging multiple areas of thought in regards to this character discussion. I'm sure it is very appreciated by any Zelda users. There is one quote you made that I want to examine and that is, "That is the underlying reason why she is probably the most complained about character of 3.0." I noticed you mentioned probably which I appreciate really appreciate. I don't feel that Zelda actually is the most complained about character of 3.0 or even necessarily the closest to it. There have been comments about her on Smashboards but we have to remember that Smashboards itself actually represents a very limited portion of the entire PM community. I bring this up because I know myself as well as others have been to other sites and all of course have different local scenes. There are plenty of places where Zelda is NOT complained about hardly at all, and polls that show she is actually a pretty well liked character within the PM community (within the top half if not higher). I think it is important to remember that this community is huge as well as spread all over the place. We have to be careful not to base our conceptions on one single place as this very well will lead to erroneous conclusions. I am not suggesting that you are falling into such a situation. Your comment just got me thinking. lol This objective fact would also be very important for those that are in control of any developing situation that wish to support the community, such as the PMBR in this case.

Look at this guy! Obscenely nice, even when he doesn't have to be. Nicest guy on here, I'm casting my vote for WhiteLightning. But I'm replying to agree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but people gave the same hate to Ivy when he came out, Lucas when he got a tether and got a lot stronger, Meta Knight in Brawl, and now it's passed to Zelda. Sure, Zelda is good now, I'm never going to deny that, but there was a time where Marth was unstoppable in Melee, and now he's sitting at 5th. Whether the game changes or not, the people playing the game will. Edgeguarding techniques will change, new ways to block will emerge, Hell, as a Zelda main, I still can't beat Link. Ever. Period. But I wouldn't dare to call for him to get nerfed (not saying you are) but instead know that I need to learn more. It's not PMBR's job to change the game so that everyone is "equal" because that will never happen. Ever. Every character is different, and right now, it looks like Zelda is on top. (And by on top, I mean 3rd. It's still pretty unanimous that Fox and Falco are better in most situations, and no one is calling for them to get nerfed either) The truth is not that Zelda is OP, but that Zelda is NEWLY good. As the Community Evolves, that will change as well, whether she gets nerfed or not.

 

[Deviljho]

I
Now, I admit an overhaul wouldn't be bad provided "overhaul" here does not just mean getting rid of Din's Fire mine properties and slowing her down. Because this is sadly what a lot of people want.

Din's fire is the least of my problems. It's just a chore and disappointment for me to fight her. Course, that's why I'm trying to learn the matchup. I've tried to follow this but
1) Most of this has been for the Ness matchup, and Ness and Yoshi aren't similar.
2)I can't provide a vid for WhiteLightning so yeah.

I tried using egg lay to throw Zelda off... It worked miserably. Other then getting luck started combos in (Which the Zelda player will promply get salty at) I've hit a dead end with my Zelda MU. I'm calming down and reducing the salt in my system but I still need to learn this MU.

She doesnt need to be nerfed.
you are all insane.
completely nuts.

Pls, Zelda don't need nurf. I agree. I just don't like the chore involved with fighting her. That's why I'm learning the match up. (Don't make me Eggstinct pls).

Peace out Zelda's.

~Deviljho