Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[drsusredfish]

why do people think Dtilt is useless? it has alot of frame advantage, it's pretty fast, it combos to uptilt at higher percents for a KO, pokes under shields, it can even meteor at the ledge. it does alot.

 

[jtm94]

A vast majority of her attacks hit in places they don't show despite the particle effects. I think they all hit too much area as a whole.

I like the idea of helping her short *** dash.

And dtilt has hidden niche uses, but I guess it can stay as is. I've been proven that it is decent.

 

[otheusrex]

Dtilt probably seems not that good to people because it's hard to use

 

[BJN39]

While I do agree Dtilt has many cool uses on paper, what I'm kinda saying in my post is that it's (compared to the rest of her A moveset) not as useful, and my ideas were not actually something I think is needed, just an idea.

 

[jtm94]

Her A moves are pretty much ALL amazing except dtilt, but dtilt is really nice to get that clutch shield poke or edge guard. I have been trying to practice it more.

 

[Deleted member]

dtilt is surprisingly good but it's hard to place i think. edge guards are the most obvious use of it. idk about anything else.

 

[Wavebuster]

Zelda has shield damage modifiers on certain moves like sweetspotted aerials that will allow Dtilt to easily poke under their attempts to shield. It also pops up well at the edge for edgeguards into kill combos. Use it.

Dsmash is just a solid move. It doesn't hit obscenely hard but it's one of the few low angle moves in her arsenal which makes its potency shoot up when you have them at the edge. It has as many niches and caveats to its usage as a lot of Zelda's other A moves. How it's not as useful as the rest of them, even when considering just ground moves, is insanity.

Also most people will disagree about Zelda's attack ranges not matching the animations, even when it comes Nayru's. The one exception is Usmash hitting lower than it looks, but that is actually how the hitboxes are placed in Melee, more or less. If you think all of the other grandfathered Melee hitboxes make visual sense then you're thinking too conveniently.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Zelda has shield damage modifiers on certain moves like sweetspotted aerials that will allow Dtilt to easily poke under their attempts to shield. It also pops up well at the edge for edgeguards into kill combos. Use it.

Dsmash is just a solid move. It doesn't hit obscenely hard but it's one of the few low angle moves in her arsenal which makes its potency shoot up when you have them at the edge. It has as many niches and caveats to its usage as a lot of Zelda's other A moves. How it's not as useful as the rest of them, even when considering just ground moves, is insanity.

Also most people will disagree about Zelda's attack ranges not matching the animations, even when it comes Nayru's. The one exception is Usmash hitting lower than it looks, but that is actually how the hitboxes are placed in Melee, more or less. If you think all of the other grandfathered Melee hitboxes make visual sense then you're thinking too conveniently.

..... I gotta get good at dtilt

 

[drsusredfish]

I have come to this conclusion for the possible zelda changes. Until the PMBR shows some type of "work in progress change log" honestly there isn't any point in trying to argue what changes would be best. If i recall correctly the change from demo 1 dins to the current dins happened with little to no influence from what the general zelda player wanted. They are gona do what they want regardless of what we say. Even though they do take suggestions those suggestions will really only hold weight when they come from people who play the WIP build.

 

[otheusrex]

they should change zelda's final smash to a new transform where she has a white dress and wings like the goddess hylia. Her upsmash could call multiple pikachu thunder bolts down from the heavens, she'd get more jumps and aerial mobility, metaknights run animation, neutral B would be light arrows that paralyze, and all her moves would be quicker

 

[WhiteLightnin]

they should change zelda's final smash to a new transform where she has a white dress and wings like the goddess hylia. Her upsmash could call multiple pikachu thunder bolts down from the heavens, she'd get more jumps and aerial mobility, metaknights run animation, neutral B would be light arrows that paralyze, and all her moves would be quicker

That sounds like a ridiculous amount of fun. lol

 

[flying_tortoise]

I have come to this conclusion for the possible zelda changes. Until the PMBR shows some type of "work in progress change log" honestly there isn't any point in trying to argue what changes would be best. If i recall correctly the change from demo 1 dins to the current dins happened with little to no influence from what the general zelda player wanted. They are gona do what they want regardless of what we say. Even though they do take suggestions those suggestions will really only hold weight when they come from people who play the WIP build.

They do what they want...until a few ppl cry loud enough... they definately aren't Sakurai who does what he wants, I do believe they will take our opinion into account, but like you said we don't know what they want to do anymore.

Instead of mindlessly arguing with them, I wish we could have gotten what they are considering, the zelda community talks and argues WITH THEMSELVES and makes a nice and organized list as to Pros and Cons and possibly offer a few, small general comments. This way the PMBR have something to look at and they might find the process less annoying...
But it looks like it's too little too late....do over anyone?

 

[TimeSmash]

I want to use Dair more, but I feel like it gets outprioritized by literally anything, including but not limited to a dead leaf that fell off a tree and managed to touch Zelda. Also it's kind of slow. Suggestions?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I want to use Dair more, but I feel like it gets outprioritized by literally anything, including but not limited to a dead leaf that fell off a tree and managed to touch Zelda. Also it's kind of slow. Suggestions?

Imo, it's best used during recoveries when you can predict the opponent's recovering angle pretty easily such as with Bowser, Donkey Kong, etc. You can nail opponents that are recovering low with it if you master timings with it that involve when you input the dair in relation with choosing to fast fall (for example, inputting a fast fall and then a dair or the opposite will space different areas and of course you choose how close or apart you use the two inputs with each other).
You can also use it with techchasing such as predicting a roll coming towards you. It can be used on shield but if you choose to do it I recommend it when you have a lot of horizontal momentum (such as a cross up) rather than using it vertically as that leaves you much more open to punishment. In general, this would be an option you would more likely use once you are really dictating the flow of the match and have the opponent confused because of the delayed hitbox and precision required to hit with it. It actually trades or has a lot of priority over a lot of moves, but it doesn't seem that way due to the timing and precision mentioned above.

 

[Arcalyth]

I want to use Dair more, but I feel like it gets outprioritized by literally anything, including but not limited to a dead leaf that fell off a tree and managed to touch Zelda. Also it's kind of slow. Suggestions?

try SH dair > waveland > kick > waveland and variants

 

[WhiteLightnin]

try SH dair > waveland > kick > waveland and variants

LOL sweet and to the point.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I need help with learning the Roy and Ivysaur MUs. Help?

 

[TimeSmash]

I need help with learning the Roy and Ivysaur MUs. Help?

I'll say this. You know how Zelda doesn't want to be above anyone? Well you REALLY don't want to be above Ivysaur since she has decent juggling ability and a KILLER UpB. Ivysaurs also have a lot of nifty edge stuff, so maybe focus on staying near the center of the stage more.

Solarbeam is weird stuff. I'm not sure if a perfectly timed Nayru's could nullify it due to invincibility frames, but it's also another reason why you don't want to be above Ivysaur, because that move does around 40%.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'll say this. You know how Zelda doesn't want to be above anyone? Well you REALLY don't want to be above Ivysaur since she has decent juggling ability and a KILLER UpB. Ivysaurs also have a lot of nifty edge stuff, so maybe focus on staying near the center of the stage more.

Solarbeam is weird stuff. I'm not sure if a perfectly timed Nayru's could nullify it due to invincibility frames, but it's also another reason why you don't want to be above Ivysaur, because that move does around 40%.

What do you guys think? Before arguing, consider that there may be a reason for this placement and word your response carefully. I don't want this to be an argument, but a crucible for refining my research.

Zelda is hard countered by; Ivy, Link, and Marth

She is countered by; Fox, ICs, Kirby, Lucas, Samus, Sonic, Toon Link, Roy, and ZSS.

She is soft countered by: Falco, Jiggs, Snake, and Squirtle*, Ganondorf*.

She is even against; Ike, Luigi, Peach, and Pikachu.

She soft-counters; Bowser, Charizard, Diddy Kong, DK, G&W, DeDeDe, Mario, MK*, Olimar*, and Pit*.

She counters; Captain Falcon, Lucario, Mewtwo, Ness*, ROB, Wario, Wolf, and Yoshi*.

She hard counters no one.

*Might be worse

All of this is based off of research and personal experience. If you are not a Zelda main, please know that we know our weaknesses better then you do at this juncture, so some of the MUs may not reflect your opinion.

 

[ShadowGanon]

What do you guys think? Before arguing, consider that there may be a reason for this placement and word your response carefully. I don't want this to be an argument, but a crucible for refining my research.

Zelda is hard countered by; Ivy, Link, and Marth.

She is countered by; Fox, ICs, Kirby, Lucas, Samus, Sonic, Toon Link,and ZSS.

She is soft countered by: Falco, Jiggs, Snake, and Squirtle*, Ganondorf*.

She is even against; Ike, Luigi, Peach, Roy, and Pikachu.

She soft-counters; Bowser, Charizard, Diddy Kong, DK, G&W, DeDeDe, Mario, MK*, Olimar*, and Pit*.

She counters; Captain Falcon*, Lucario, Mewtwo, Ness*, ROB, Wario, and Yoshi*.

She hard counters Wolf.

*Might be worse

All of this is based off of research and personal experience. If you are not a Zelda main, please know that we know our weaknesses better then you do at this juncture, so some of the MUs may not reflect your opinion.

^ Fixed ^

 

[DarkStarStorm]

^ Fixed ^

I fixed it again. You were just rusty as Roy, I really have trouble with him but he's not even nor is he a hard counter so he's a counter. Thanks though, I forgot Marth. You can't count Wolf as a hard counter based on that ONE match, he didn't know how to handle the MU and it wasn't that good anyway so that produced a four-stock. it's NOT hard counter, any Zelda main will agree with me. You and he just need to handle the MU differently, handle it sort of like a Squirtle, it's still bad for Wolf, but not THAT bad.

 

[ShadowGanon]

What do you guys think? Before arguing, consider that there may be a reason for this placement and word your response carefully. I don't want this to be an argument, but a crucible for refining my research.

Zelda is hard countered by; Ivy, Link, and Marth

She is countered by; Fox, ICs, Kirby, Lucas, Samus, Sonic, Toon Link, Roy, and ZSS.

She is soft countered by: Falco, Jiggs, Snake, and Squirtle*, Ganondorf*.

She is even against; Ike, Luigi, Peach, and Pikachu.

She soft-counters; Bowser, Charizard, Diddy Kong, DK, G&W, DeDeDe, Mario, MK*, Olimar*, and Pit*.

She counters; Captain Falcon, Lucario, Mewtwo, Ness*, ROB, Wario, Wolf, and Yoshi*.

She hard-counters anyone who plays super aggro and "Doesn't know the matchup".

*Might be worse

All of this is based off of research and personal experience. If you are not a Zelda main, please know that we know our weaknesses better then you do at this juncture, so some of the MUs may not reflect your opinion.

There. Fixed your fix. lol.

 

[BJN39]

What do you guys think? Before arguing, consider that there may be a reason for this placement and word your response carefully. I don't want this to be an argument, but a crucible for refining my research.

Zelda is hard countered by; Ivy, Link, and Marth

She is countered by; Fox, ICs, Kirby, Lucas, Samus, Sonic, Toon Link, Roy, and ZSS.

She is soft countered by: Falco, Jiggs, Snake, and Squirtle*, Ganondorf*.

She is even against; Ike, Luigi, Peach, and Pikachu.

She soft-counters; Bowser, Charizard, Diddy Kong, DK, G&W, DeDeDe, Mario, MK*, Olimar*, and Pit*.

She counters; Captain Falcon, Lucario, Mewtwo, Ness*, ROB, Wario, Wolf, and Yoshi*.

She hard counters no one.

*Might be worse

All of this is based off of research and personal experience. If you are not a Zelda main, please know that we know our weaknesses better then you do at this juncture, so some of the MUs may not reflect your opinion.

Well, IMO, I think Link and Marth are only slight disadvantages, but I can't say I'm an expert on the MUs, so I'll leave it at that. I don't really want to argue about them either. > _ >

KDJ's Zelda put in work on an amazing Link, that's partially the reason for my belief. here's there most recent battle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofehrrk9kgc&list=UUMIYJSORx7Ssl2Fm3qKa6Tw
So, with that, maybe KDJ's playstyle is more effective against link.


I have a few opinions of my own on some MUs:

Counter-Pick (Harder to win) -- Fox, and Likely some others, IDK...

Slight Disadvantage (Can be overcome) -- ROB, Falco, Marth, Link, Pit

About Even -- CF, Jigglypuff, Peach, Snake

Slight Advantage (Opponent can overcome) -- Ness, Bowser

Mine is as well based off research and personal opinion. So... yeah.

And yes, I left many out as I don't have a sure thought on them yet.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Zelda is even with fox....

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm not to sure about that because Fox can punish anything with U-smash. Even land canceled Nayru's because the range on his U-smash is just good. He eats traps for breakfast, and he has the movement to make teledashing hard. Because he's a fast faller the f-throw combos don't work on him, though the U-throw does. If you have those few M2K/ZHime on your mind as a guide, they're not accurate because even when M2K beat him, he still wasn't one hundred percent knowledgeable about the MU.


The thing is about that Link (Wolf) is that he's still developing. Many of his dodges were punished HARD. If he stays at it he will only prove my point that Link is a hard counter to Zelda.

Marth: Teledashes, dins, and Nayru's mean nothing to him because he can, have the movement and air time to make the telegame irrelevant. His sword can eat dins and stay safe so Zelda can't punish him. Nayru's can be outranged by any of his moves, you choose what to punish her with. Because she's light it'll be easy to kill her with Marth, none of that: can't kill at 100%.

 

[The_NZA]

Zelda is catching on like wild fire in MA. Everyone I've talked to here thinks shes an amazing character with some really bad matchups (mewtwo?).

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zelda is catching on like wild fire in MA. Everyone I've talked to here thinks shes an amazing character with some really bad matchups (mewtwo?).

Then we need to rally together to stop PM from changing her.

 

[BJN39]

Zelda is catching on like wild fire in MA. Everyone I've talked to here thinks shes an amazing character with some really bad matchups (mewtwo?).

Well yeah. After watching M2K completely destroy KDJ's Zelda with M2, it looks kinda bad... Okay, really bad lol.

It's kinda interesting, KDJ does SO good, and he doesn't even really use Teledash or Nayru that often/at all. He may very well be the missing piece to save Zelda the possible drastic changes that have been rumored as he contradicts some common arguements against Zelda.

Zelda is even with fox....

That's what I initially believed, but all in all, the results show that once the Fox knows what to do, he starts to win quite a bit more.

I mean, we had ZHime VS M2K (Basically some of the best for their respective chars in P:M) and after a while, you could see M2K starting to pull away.

Let me be clear, by "counter-pick" I mean more around 40:60. But It could be only 45:55. (So, "Soft-counter") Foxs just start pulling ahead more often in the MU. Zelda can win if she works hard though, I believe it.

 

[Wavebuster]

Remember when Mewtwo was terrified of Zelda in Melee? How the tables have turned.

 

[The_NZA]

Well yeah. After watching M2K completely destroy KDJ's Zelda with M2, it looks kinda bad... Okay, really bad lol.

It's kinda interesting, KDJ does SO good, and he doesn't even really use Teledash or Nayru that often/at all. He may very well be the missing piece to save Zelda the possible drastic changes that have been rumored as he contradicts some common arguements against Zelda.



That's what I initially believed, but all in all, the results show that once the Fox knows what to do, he starts to win quite a bit more.

I mean, we had ZHime VS M2K (Basically some of the best for their respective chars in P:M) and after a while, you could see M2K starting to pull away.

Let me be clear, by "counter-pick" I mean more around 40:60. But It could be only 45:55. (So, "Soft-counter") Foxs just start pulling ahead more often in the MU. Zelda can win if she works hard though, I believe it.

I disagree with you. KDJ doesn't prove that there aren't problems with Zelda. Rather, he proves that Zelda can be designed in a way that stays rewarding but moves away from her toxic elements. You don't need a hyper strong nayru's love in order to do well with her. Nor do you you have to camp with Din's fires and turtle. He just abuses her spacing, incredible fair/bair game, and space control.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I disagree with you. KDJ doesn't prove that there aren't problems with Zelda. Rather, he proves that Zelda can be designed in a way that stays rewarding but moves away from her toxic elements. You don't need a hyper strong nayru's love in order to do well with her. Nor do you you have to camp with Din's fires and turtle. He just abuses her spacing, incredible fair/bair game, and space control.

If the teledash and dins are taken away I will be seriously angry.

 

[The_NZA]

If the teledash and dins are taken away I will be seriously angry.

I actually like the teledash. As for Din's, I think its still a little badly designed. It's cool when Zhime throws you in the air and you land on one and it explodes with good timing and kills you. It's stupid when a dins fire is chilling on a platform of PS2, and you are jumping past it and it explodes and kills you at 100% or so. No projectile needs to kill you that accidentally\--rather, it should always reward the user for strategically knocknig you into it.

And its really easy over the course of a 4 stock match to accidentally end up in the range of one of those babies fully charged. They have deceiving range and its pretty hard for every character to stuff them all while still playing against Zelda's great turtle game.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I disagree with you. KDJ doesn't prove that there aren't problems with Zelda. Rather, he proves that Zelda can be designed in a way that stays rewarding but moves away from her toxic elements. You don't need a hyper strong nayru's love in order to do well with her. Nor do you you have to camp with Din's fires and turtle. He just abuses her spacing, incredible fair/bair game, and space control.

We've sort of already had this conversation before so it's probably going to be an agree to disagree situation here but none the less I would like to share my opinion. Nayru's is not hyper strong. It probably seems more so for Ness players with the limited range. It is not a fast move, so it can't be instantly activated like other reflectors, and it has no guaranteed pressure so it is been given other attributes to make it usable. The land canceled version can even be punished with out of shield options or you can choose just to space it out for characters with a long enough reach. For those characters lacking reach you could short or full hop it and attack from an above angle. Compare it to all of the other reflectors, special shields, etc. in the game and you will see it is pretty balanced in relation to the others. Plus let's remember this special reflector's functions are being applied to a character with limited mobility to begin with. Nayru's has to be used very situationally and if the opponent is looking for it it becomes virtually impossible to land. In fact using the spacing for avoiding lightning kicks will in large part overlap so that will already reduce it's effectiveness. It's far from toxic.

As far as Din's is concerned I think your earlier idea of making their hurtbox match the size of the mine would take care of the problem and make it plenty fair enough.

 

[The_NZA]

We've sort of already had this conversation before so it's probably going to be an agree to disagree situation here but none the less I would like to share my opinion. Nayru's is not hyper strong. It probably seems more so for Ness players with the limited range. It is not a fast move, so it can't be instantly activated like other reflectors, and it has no guaranteed pressure so it is been given other attributes to make it usable. The land canceled version can even be punished with out of shield options or you can choose just to space it out for characters with a long enough reach. For those characters lacking reach you could short or full hop it and attack from an above angle. Compare it to all of the other reflectors, special shields, etc. in the game and you will see it is pretty balanced in relation to the others. Plus let's remember this special reflector's functions are being applied to a character with limited mobility to begin with. Nayru's has to be used very situationally and if the opponent is looking for it it becomes virtually impossible to land. In fact using the spacing for avoiding lightning kicks will in large part overlap so that will already reduce it's effectiveness. It's far from toxic.

As far as Din's is concerned I think your earlier idea of making their hurtbox match the size of the mine would take care of the problem and make it plenty fair enough.

You can't change the size of their hurtboxes. They don't have a hurtbox apparently. Its just like...a clankable projectile or something.

EDIT:

Also, I don't know why anyone thinks they deserve a kill from a dins explosion from stage level? It's not like many of zelda's moves can combo into a grounded din's fire explosion (almost all of her moves send people up and away). Those types of kills are purely always accidental and quite literally free. I think an opponent having to move around dins fire and getting stunned when they run into it is enough utility. Especially when an attentive Zelda can already convert fairs/bairs off of it.

As far as Nayru's go, I don't konw how much landing lag it has when done aerially. But I don't think it's much. Care to share?

 

[WhiteLightnin]

You can't change the size of their hurtboxes. They don't have a hurtbox apparently. Its just like...a clankable projectile or something.

Oh thanks for the info. I had no idea. lol

 

[Lil Puddin]

A vast majority of her attacks hit in places they don't show despite the particle effects. I think they all hit too much area as a whole.

I like the idea of helping her short *** dash.

And dtilt has hidden niche uses, but I guess it can stay as is. I've been proven that it is decent.

Well the downside is that all of her huge range attacks also last longer than most smashes. So the purpose is she covers one side of her for an extended amount of time in hopes of sending away the opponent. She's all about having room to breath or preying on mistakes so it fits. Ironically, using her attacks wrong makes it easy for people to prey on her mistakes.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

You can't change the size of their hurtboxes. They don't have a hurtbox apparently. Its just like...a clankable projectile or something.

EDIT:

Also, I don't know why anyone thinks they deserve a kill from a dins explosion from stage level? It's not like many of zelda's moves can combo into a grounded din's fire explosion (almost all of her moves send people up and away). Those types of kills are purely always accidental and quite literally free. I think an opponent having to move around dins fire and getting stunned when they run into it is enough utility. Especially when an attentive Zelda can already convert fairs/bairs off of it.

As far as Nayru's go, I don't konw how much landing lag it has when done aerially. But I don't think it's much. Care to share?

Yeah of course. It doesn't appear to be in our frame data section so I'll ask about it and let you know when I have more info. I assume you would like to know in terms of frame data?

 

[BJN39]

I disagree with you. KDJ doesn't prove that there aren't problems with Zelda. Rather, he proves that Zelda can be designed in a way that stays rewarding but moves away from her toxic elements. You don't need a hyper strong nayru's love in order to do well with her. Nor do you you have to camp with Din's fires and turtle. He just abuses her spacing, incredible fair/bair game, and space control.

Read: Some. Obviously there are still arguments that weren't countered by KDJ's style of play, and some that were are still arguable. I still believe KDJ playing Zelda was something Zelda needed, whether it be proving she can play offensively to some extent and have it pay off, or how far she goes off a top player compared to others.

 

[The_NZA]

Read: Some. Obviously there are still arguments that weren't countered by KDJ's style of play, and some that were are still arguable. I still believe KDJ playing Zelda was something Zelda needed, whether it be proving she can play offensively to some extent and have it pay off, or how far she goes off a top player compared to others.

You implied that KDJ proved Zelda may not need to be changed, and that he invalidates "some" of the arguments against her.

I didn't really catch what some of those arguments were, or why his success proved Zelda may not need to be changed. If anything, I argued that KDJ lit a road for other Zelda players to stop complaining that they might end up with nerfed Dins explosions or Dins game, or nayru's love, since Zelda won't become any less viable. If anything, KDJ plays Zelda by not using her most complained about traits, and he shows how she can be designed to better take advantage of the traits that work and aren't nearly as annoying. That was what I was trying to point out.

Honestly, I (and many others) have felt Zelda is an amazingly strong character (that is what I meant by amazing earlier), and that is reflected in CT's tier list that puts her in high tier. For some reason at some point, it became common to simply presume Zelda wasn't a top 10 character but when you really look at her moveset, range, low cooldown on attacks, quick startup, and great power, you realize she's a godsend. Add in her projectile game and you are looking at a high tier.

 

[Wavebuster]

Also, I don't know why anyone thinks they deserve a kill from a dins explosion from stage level? It's not like many of zelda's moves can combo into a grounded din's fire explosion (almost all of her moves send people up and away). Those types of kills are purely always accidental and quite literally free. I think an opponent having to move around dins fire and getting stunned when they run into it is enough utility. Especially when an attentive Zelda can already convert fairs/bairs off of it.

They're only accidental against people who don't know the range of the move. Move unfamiliarity is not a problem with the move. Mewtwo is riding a high horse for this reason with how much was added to him, but some of it will undoubtedly wane off.

Din's explosions do, in fact, match the explosion graphic. Note how Pit is not getting hit. If you were inside this visible shockwave and not having anything happen to you, that would look silly.

The mine that ticks is significantly smaller than the explosion. It's supposed to be. If it weren't, there would be too small a range for the explosion to hit without it being bumped into normally. It's not a bomb that goes off once touched like others, but once touched immediately does its minimal damage/KB. Think about any explosive in the game. They all have explosions farther than the range of the objects that generate them, including those that have hitboxes themselves.

You have Snake who can kill from C4s and Dsmash mines from stage level and aren't limited to committing hard to them, stringent timing to make sure you're range in of them when they go off and defenseless to get kills off them, etc. Zelda can very deliberately combo into Din's Fire explosions or DI trap into them with throws. Accidentals are nice, but are never dependable and are not a reason to be using the move against fresh players, because it won't work when she fights people who know what she's capable of.