Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[flying_tortoise]

All of his moves (besides dash attack) have...transcendent priority or something? I know ShadowGanon has explained it countless times here and in other forums, but I forget what it's called aha...anyways, MK's transcendent priority means that his dash attack is the only move that can clang. (and therefore the only one that can put out dins, which has pretty punishable endlag)

Ah sorry didn't know you guys already went over this MU. Did you already do the others as well (if so then my bad)
will train against the other characters tm

 

[ECHOnce]

Ah sorry didn't know you guys already went over this MU. Did you already do the others as well (if so then my bad)
will train against the other characters tm

We haven't gone over the other MUs yet! I was referring to how ShadowGanon had previously explained the concept of Transcendent Priority here in this thread (which is the reason why MK can't easily put out dins), but I had forgotten exactly how it worked. As a side note, the post says MK's glide attack works as well, so...there's that too, but it'd still put MK in an awkward position when trying to put out dins; he'd be better off just avoiding them and hope you don't have anything too scary set up for him. (huhuhu)

 

[soultamashii13]

zelda in my opinion no longer needs to be nerfed due to her still having trouble with the likes of fox,falco,metaknight E.T.C
her sweetspots are kinda hard to hit on battle and her running speed is horrible plus if they make her like melee zelda she will not stand a chance against the metagame,the only ones i see that need nerfs are the true top tiers and the op characters...thats my opinion

 

[soultamashii13]

zelda in my opinion no longer needs to be nerfed due to her still having trouble with the likes of fox,falco,metaknight E.T.C
her sweetspots are kinda hard to hit on battle and her running speed is horrible plus if they make her like melee zelda she will not stand a chance against the metagame,the only ones i see that need nerfs are the true top tiers and the op characters...thats my opinion

 

[luxmivozi]

zelda in my opinion no longer needs to be nerfed due to her still having trouble with the likes of fox,falco,metaknight E.T.C
her sweetspots are kinda hard to hit on battle and her running speed is horrible plus if they make her like melee zelda she will not stand a chance against the metagame,the only ones i see that need nerfs are the true top tiers and the op characters...thats my opinion

i agree and also i think you kinda double posted that post

 

[victinivcreate1]

Zelda's moves are a bit spammable. Forward smash and Nayru's Love are spammable, and both shield stab easily. I'd compare these two moves to Mewtwo's nair, unlike Mewtwo's nair, you don't have to aim a certain hitbox to shieldstab. These two moves just do. Other than that, I'd say decrease the range of that Up B a little bit and increase the blow up hitbox of Din's Fire and she's good. Perhaps its just my slower paced style that gets owned by Zelda.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Perhaps its just my slower paced style that gets owned by Zelda.

Since this thread has tried to become more match-up focused this is the only thing you said that's really relevant in this thread. The rest belongs in the Megadump thread. Zelda really loves matches that get slowed down because her biggest weakness is being pressured. If you are giving her enough space to set up more than one Din you are giving her too much room to breathe. Don't let Zelda control the pace of the match. With Mewtwo you have a lot of really easy ways of closing the gap. Fully charged shadow balls can punish a Zelda locked into placing a Din and your teleport+disjointed hitboxes stuff a lot of her approaches. Hover cancelled nair is really safe for scooping up Zelda and keeping her in the air, which I'd say is her second biggest weakness. She's super easy to juggle, especially when you can just teleport up to her and out prioritize her aerials.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Since this thread has tried to become more match-up focused this is the only thing you said that's really relevant in this thread. The rest belongs in the Megadump thread. Zelda really loves matches that get slowed down because her biggest weakness is being pressured. If you are giving her enough space to set up more than one Din you are giving her too much room to breathe. Don't let Zelda control the pace of the match. With Mewtwo you have a lot of really easy ways of closing the gap. Fully charged shadow balls can punish a Zelda locked into placing a Din and your teleport+disjointed hitboxes stuff a lot of her approaches. Hover cancelled nair is really safe for scooping up Zelda and keeping her in the air, which I'd say is her second biggest weakness. She's super easy to juggle, especially when you can just teleport up to her and out prioritize her aerials.

Mewtwo's aerials have fairly low priority tbh. Just that nair has a million hits lol. But thanks for the tips.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Mewtwo's aerials have fairly low priority tbh. Just that nair has a million hits lol. But thanks for the tips.

M2s bair begs to differ. His tail's reach is totally ridonk against Zelda. So Zelda really doesn't like M2 compared to most matchups.

 

[victinivcreate1]

M2s bair begs to differ. His tail's reach is totally ridonk against Zelda. So Zelda really doesn't like M2 compared to most matchups.

Reach does not equal priority. If Reach did, then Kirby would have super low priority moves. But wait a sec. He doesn't.

 

[ECHOnce]

Speaking of M2, I traded a few matches with pretty good M2 for the first time last week and it seemed like a pretty even, although neither of us really know much about each others characters. I'll hopefully get the chance to challenge him for 3rd place on my scene's ladder sometime this week, so advice would be good aha.

- - -​

[TL;DR SUMMARY BELOW]​

Both have similar tools as you pointed out, but their slight differences don't mean they're better or worse - they just have diff applications (e.g. Zelda can shield-poke with a rising N-air, but she can get hit out of it without making a trade by non-disjoints if attacked from the top/bottom. M2's N-air, on the other hand, can at least make opponents hesitate if they don't have disjoints, since it'll always trade iirc). After some vids+reading+experimenting as him in training and against M2 CPUs, I would say M2 has advantage (not sure how much though). I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong in anything below though, since I've only played the MU in person once, so correct me where I'm wrong:

• Both can be played defensively in close-ranged neutral; they both try to start short combos that eventually hit enemies away and reset to neutral. IMO Zelda can win in close-range if she plays smart - she can shield and punish just about anything he can do. But if M2 lands a single hit to start a combo, well...put simply, M2 has one of the most effective juggles in the game, with his U-tilts and Float U-airs, and Zelda is among the characters with the worst options to return to the stage from juggles, with a slow D-air that has a small hitbox area, long animation and endlag on Dins (M2 can Teleport up and hit to easily punish), slow startup Teleport (which she also can get hit out of) with predictable destinations, and (surprise~) can be safely hit out of her only other downwards traveling move (Diamond Diving, Zelda-specific tech in which Zelda basically...in simpler but technically incorrect terms...fast falls while using Nayrus Love, her Neutral-B. Sounds great, until you realize she can be hit out of it from above/below without any risk to opponents of getting hit by its horizontal hitboxes. It sort of defeats the main purpose of using it to safely return to the stage against jugglers...but regardless, it's among her safest anti-juggle options). If Zelda is inside M2's tilt range but not close enough to hit with any grounded moves, M2 wins. If Zelda is just outside of M2's tilt range (so she can bait/punish his slow startup+endlag) or close-enough to shield-grab/U-smash OOS, Zelda wins. It's as simple as that. M2's grab is worse than Zelda's grab in terms of startup, endlag, and range IIRC, but both can lead to easy kills. The below just consists of the above in more detail, and possible follow-ups from both sides. Close-ranged play is always tighter and it's important to understand each character's available options, so it's a bit lengthy. If you read this paragraph, you can TLDR the following because I said the gist of it all here.

• • Zelda has a close-ranged protective bubble of quick single-hits (Jab, F-tilt, D-tilt, D-smash, LKs...), lingering multi-hits (Jab, F-smash, U-smash, N-air, sorta Jab, sorta Dash Attack...), and Nayrus. LKs (F-airs/B-airs) are also good for spacing due to long range, quick startup, and trauma-inducing crit/super-crit KBs. U-tilt is among her other good killing options; it comes out relatively quickly, but has sort reach and lasts forever...it's super punishable if it doesn't connect. Most her moveset is punishable in that respect, so M2s should look out to punish that if they slip up.
  • That being said, when claimed earlier that she can win close-ranged neutral if she plays smart, I meant that she can if she's careful to use options that are safe on shield (stay outside of his shield-grab range). I'm pretty sure all of the following work: JC Grab, SHFFL LK, SH into rising LK then wave-landing back, and Land-canceled Nayrus. Also, not sure if this is viable, but dash cancelling or WDing forwards to enable standing attacks --> Jab/F-tilt/D-tilt at their max ranges might be safe on shield too.
  • If he does manage to shield your punish, he'll probably try to punish you back with a F-air OOS or shield-grab. (or N-air/U-air OOS...? idk their respective hurtbox/hitbox ranges). Punish his punish by shielding or spot-dodging (you should have time to if your initial punish was safe on shield) and shield-grab or U-smash OOS/Nayrus OOS appropriately...or if he really starts putting on the pressure, retreat to reset to the close-ish neutral position outside of his tilt range via buffer dodge-roll or Teledash OOS (obviously only if you can land the initial hit). If you're approaching and he shields preemptively before you start an attack, bait his shield-grab with DD --> grab/U-smash/Dash Attack. WD before to DD if necessary. If he still keeps shielding preemptively in future instances, but starts to expect the DD and waits to punish it, just mix it up by skipping the DD and run up grab.

• • M2 has a larger close-ranged bubble of Tilts that are hell for Zelda if he can start a combo with one, but they're fairly slow and can be punished easily if blocked/avoided. His shorter and less effective (for defensive play) close-ranged options include his Jab, Disable (Down-B), and Reflect (Side-B). Jab sort of sucks - it has tiny reach, and it's endlag and too much KB make it hard to follow up on. TBH I really don't know how M2's Disable and Reflect are suppose to work, but from what I've seen they're good for punishing whiffed moves and/or as combo follow-ups...albeit rarely used since they're super risky with their absurdly long animations. His Dash Attack, as far as I know, is basically useless. His smashes all have relatively good range+kill power (excluding his U-smash, which is basically a worse version of Zelda's in every way), but are super slow and punishable.
  • Went into detail for what Zelda could do in close-ranged neutral, but M2's consists of pretty much just the basic Marth-style spacing with tilts, and avoiding any punishes as best as possible. If Zelda starts to put on the pressure, just punish back or Teleport out to retreat to med/long-ranged neutral. Zelda is slow, so as long as you Teleport just above the ground or a platform, she won't be able to punish you with anything other than laying Dins beforehand to try limit your Teleport options. If you really are just holed up by Dins and can't teleport near the ground/platforms, or just want a mixup, Teleporting diagonally-up and B-airing any approaches as you fall away from her is probably safe enough.

• Moving on to med/long-ranged Neutral, their general playstyles seem to differ more and M2 has a bigger advantage; might be a nooby perspective or lack of MU experience, but it feels pretty terrible on Zelda's end if the M2 knows what he's doing.

• • As I just said, Zelda sorta sucks in this MU if she doesn't maintain close-range neutral. Her SHFFL LKs and SHFFL N-airs/Land-cancelled Nayrus into grounded attacks are generally unsafe against M2 due of his huge shield (if he shield-tilts) and huge tilt disjoints to interrupt them. Her Teledashes, whether to retreat or approach, can be punished by M2 from a pretty sizeable distance, if he can Teleport and hit her out of the initial animation in time before she disappears (quick reaction, but doable). Laying Dins is punishable in this way, too, since they take time to lay and has long endlag. Even if she does manage to lay some out if she hits him away far enough, Teleport past them, Float around them, shoot partially-charged Shadow Balls to eat them up, or use tilt disjoints to clang them away…all of which put him in an immediate position to punish if she’s in the act of laying one or the following endlag. (Teleport/Float --> aerial, Shadowball goes through and hits her, and clanging your tilts ends the tilt animation immediately, so you have more time to reach her) It’s not flawless, in that M2 does have to react to a lot of these and can mess up, but he does have an answer to any of her options from a distance.

• • On the other hand, med/long-ranged for M2 just seems to be where he focuses on charging Shadow Balls or spamming uncharged ones if the opponent can’t deal with it. If he’s not doing that, he’s usually baiting approaches with Moonwalks and Floats, or approach/retreat Teleporting everywhere so as to confuse opponents and not get approached as easily (unless he’s prepared to punish them). If M2 can effectively maintain a good distance and exploit the above effectively, Zelda has few options to counter it. The only ones I could really come up with were to mix things up by baiting his approaches/punishes listed above with Wavebounced Dins and Nayrus, and to swap to Sheik so he doesn’t get used to Zelda enough to play perfectly against her.

• • I realize many of us aren't Shieldas, but I'd highly recommend Transforming if you're approaching high %s; M2's smashes, F-air, and U-throw all kill her insanely early because of her floatiness. Even on large stages, I believe his F-airs/Shadow Balls/U-throws (from PS2's center at ground level) can kill Zelda as early as 60-90%...can't really remember since it's been a full week since I played the MU. 60% is prob my memory getting exaggerated, but they definitely killed before 90%, with good DI. It's pretty scary, especially when Zelda's best neutral position is pretty much as close to him as possible imo (as explained in aaallllll of the above stuff). Sheik can survive past 100% if hit/thrown by these and with proper DI. Of course, Shadow Balls and F-airs can (I'm pretty sure) be SDI'ed downwards and teched, but for those of us that suck with SDI, Transform is something to consider, even if it's only to tack on that little bit more of %. (Also, fun noob tip for those who don't know, but in addition to the invincibility from the Transform animation, Sheik/Zelda don't lose their respawn invincibility during transform - it carries over afterward, and can mess with people that don't catch on quickly hoho. Just some more incentive to...die as Sheik. aha)

• Edge-guarding...I'm not sure how either character handles each other exactly. It's hard to edge-guard M2 with Dins because of his teleport, but if he falls into a pattern, you can predict where he'll appear and punish with U-smash. It can be pretty easily corrected/avoided by him though, and will prob only work the first few times unless you actively mix up some other edge-guard you come up with (which I can't aha). Once he's back on stage, if he was busy avoiding your U-smash, you might be able to still punish him with a Dash Attack, F-smash, D-smash, run-up U-smash, or U-tilt if he's beside you, or LK/U-air if he's above. M2 will pretty much always recover from LKs or B-throws (Zelda's kill throw) if he isn't finished off though, so it's def something to discuss a bit more. The flip side is pretty much the same; M2 can easily D-smash, N-air, B-air, or tilt any of Zeldas missed ledge-sweetspot attempts. If she lands on stage beside him, he'll probably either B-throw her back off, or use U-throw, F-smash, or D-smash to kill...if she appears above, F-air to kill, or B-air/U-air to juggle more or hit her back off. Both often like to leave the stage for off-stage edge-guards...Zelda with her N-air, LKs, and D-air...M2 with his B-air/U-air strings or D-air...but both of their Teleports make them pretty hard to accomplish, and can even lead to getting punished themselves if they're not careful; reactive on-stage edge-guards just seem more effective. Concerning Meteor-smashes...they can be hard to land for the above reasons, and both characters can recover from them with their effective vertical recovery. If you have to go for it, prepare to follow-up if their note med-high %s; IDK if a second D-air to catch them out of Up-B works, but I'm hazarding a guess that it'd more likely work against M2, since his Up-B is relatively quick and travels a shorter distance.

- - -
​

TL;DR:

The MU seemed pretty even when I played it, so long as I maintained close neutral distance; might've been slight advantage to Zelda for close-up stuff. Zelda gets wrecked if M2 can keep her at a distance though; he has a lot of good tools to counter her options from afar. M2's U-throw/Shadow Ball/F-air/smashes kill floaty Zelda early without leaving her much chance to DI/recover accordingly, whereas Zelda's LKs and B-throws can be pretty easily recovered from with M2's ridiculous horizontal recovery if he doesn't hit the kill-zone barrier (U-tilt and U-air can still kill just as effectively though). Meteor smashing is a pretty valid for both, but only at high %s since they can recover well vertically. Edge-guarding off the stage is hard for both because of teleports, but on-stage edge-guarding is standard biz.​

 

[Lil Puddin]

Reach does not equal priority. If Reach did, then Kirby would have super low priority moves. But wait a sec. He doesn't.

It kind of does when the attack speed is roughly the same. M2 can also float or act out of teleport so Zelda does not have an easy time returning to the stage or ground. He's naturally good at baiting Zelda so that's not a plus.

Personally I feel like it's an even match. It is mostly about proper reading and baiting to win. But you never want to be far from M2 and you don't want his back towards you. His aerial game messes Zelda up easily thanks to his reach and similar attack speed along with how floaty and light Zelda is.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Reach does not equal priority. If Reach did, then Kirby would have super low priority moves. But wait a sec. He doesn't.

Well, disjointed reach DOES equal priority, and both Kirby and Mewtwo have lots of disjoint.

 

[ECHOnce]

Reach does not equal priority. If Reach did, then Kirby would have super low priority moves. But wait a sec. He doesn't.

That's true, but disjointed hitboxes - like with M2's tail in his tilts, U-air, and B-air - will always beat out any degree of priority, so long as they can hit the opponents hurthbox without having their own hurtboxes getting hit. Which is, effectively, winning that particular trade due longer reach. As you said, reach technically =/= priority, but if a move is disjointed, it can "out-prioritize" any move it outranges.

 

[BJN39]

Well, disjointed reach DOES equal priority, ...

No.

No no NO.

NO.


It DOESN'T. I made a big beef about this relating to SSB4 when THE SSB4 INVITATIONAL WINNER didn't even seem to know that PRIORITY DOES NOT EQUAL RANGE OF HITBOXES!

It never did, and never will. Don't spread that lie any longer.

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Priority

There. Read it.

/rant

 

[ECHOnce]

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Priority

There. Read it.

No.

No no NO.

NO.


Smashpedia is a TERRIBLE source. If you must reference to a wiki for core smash mechanics you won't really find explained anywhere else on SWF/Reddit, USE SSBWIKI.COM INSTEAD. It has LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME CONTENT, BUT THE URLS ARE SO MUCH EASIER TO REMEMBER.


Smashpedia has never compared to its swagger, and it never will. Don't spread such vermin URLs any longer.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority

There. HHNNNNNGGG~~

/pet-peeves lol


But honestly, there wasn't much reason to freak out on him like that aha. Zelda boards are classy. Let's keep it classy.

 

[Kaeldiar]

@ BJN39 @ ECHOnce

1. In every single way, ssbwiki >>>> supersmashbros.wikia
2. I know how priority works. I know the definitions and the percentages and all that crap. The fact of the matter is, if Marth comes in with a sword and I go in with my foot, Marth is going to win because he has disjoint. It's basically a projectile. His hitbox extends far beyond the hurtbox, which DOES give him priority. There is the technical definition of priority, and then there is the WORKING DEFINITION of priority. If we want to get into technicalities, we can, but I'm going to talk about what actually happens in real time

 

[ECHOnce]

EDIT: Just realized that I sort of derailed the discussion and brought it off-topic, my b... I get all the threads mixed up with the social all the time. >>

@ BJN39 @ ECHOnce

1. In every single way, ssbwiki >>>> supersmashbros.wikia
2. I know how priority works. I know the definitions and the percentages and all that crap. The fact of the matter is, if Marth comes in with a sword and I go in with my foot, Marth is going to win because he has disjoint. It's basically a projectile. His hitbox extends far beyond the hurtbox, which DOES give him priority. There is the technical definition of priority, and then there is the WORKING DEFINITION of priority. If we want to get into technicalities, we can, but I'm going to talk about what actually happens in real time

1. HUHUHU YUS
2. True, but why not both? That'd avoid confusion from both sides. Go technically correct and then offer analogies likened to your current preference.

 

[BJN39]

XD

I just meant to get a link for SSB priority, so I clicked the first one on the google results--which was obviously inferior. > , >

LOL.

But yeah, I can be classy, I just can't stand the type of obvious wrongness that sometimes occurs on all Zelda boards, (SSB4 is the most recent offender.) and go a little Fuujin on poeple (Who were wrong) about it.

 

[Kaeldiar]

XD

I just meant to get a link for SSB priority, so I clicked the first one on the google results--which was obviously inferior. > , >

LOL.

But yeah, I can be classy, I just can't stand the type of obvious wrongness that sometimes occurs on all Zelda boards, (SSB4 is the most recent offender.) and go a little Fuujin on poeple (Who were wrong) about it.

I COMPLETELY understand. Glad we got that sorted out, and sorry if I caused you anymore stress than the insufferableness that already exists in the form of internet idiots and trolls

 

[ECHOnce]

So is anyone here experienced in the Zelda-M2 MU, and have any advice for me / corrections to my prev. Post?

 

[BJN39]

So is anyone here experienced in the Zelda-M2 MU, and have any advice for me / corrections to my prev. Post?

I can't say I know the MU well but I'll share my thoughts.

IDK If this vid hasn't already been posted, but here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1_vhJZK5Ec
^^
"High level" play between KDJ and M2K. Just judging by this and their 2 characters options, I'm inclinded to believe M2 has a slight advantage. As you could see, M2 had far better close area control, and easily juggled Zelda over the edges, which inherently leads to the chance to pull more percent on Zelda as she recovers. M2 also doesn't lack vertical Ko power, which is Zelda's least favorite.

Of course, Zelda still has a great recovery, and likely would not be gimped by M2. Alongside that, Zelda's kicks still bop M2 simlar to Melee, which can be 'nuff said' about that, and she still has a plethora of KO options (and some combo options) of her own to bop M2 around.

It seems like a small stage would actually give more advantage to M2 in this MU to me. As M2 can Uthrow or FAir for the vertical KO easy, (so obviously don't pick short stages) and juggle over the edge and get an early side screen BAir/UAir KO without ANY worry of suicide. Of course, stage choice would really just be choosing whether you want the KO and to be Ko'ed early, or not, for both of them.

Just my thoughts.

*Almost finished typing, then looked back at your post*

O . O

Holy moly that's a big post, you probably already said a lot of the stuff I just said, lol. You're very thorough.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

What do you guys think? Before arguing, consider that there may be a reason for this placement and word your response carefully. I don't want this to be an argument, but a crucible for refining my research.

Zelda is hard countered by; Ivy, Link, and Marth

She is countered by; Fox, ICs, Kirby, Lucas, Samus, Sonic, Toon Link, Roy, and ZSS.

She is soft countered by: Falco, Jiggs, Snake, and Squirtle*, Ganondorf*.

She is even against; Ike, Luigi, Peach, and Pikachu.

She soft-counters; Bowser, Charizard, Diddy Kong, DK, G&W, DeDeDe, Mario, MK*, Olimar*, and Pit*.

She counters; Captain Falcon, Lucario, Mewtwo, Ness*, ROB, Wario, Wolf, and Yoshi*.

She hard counters no one.

*Might be worse

All of this is based off of research and personal experience. If you are not a Zelda main, please know that we know our weaknesses better then you do at this juncture, so some of the MUs may not reflect your opinion.

I don't agree about Luigi at all. I think she counters Luigi pretty easily. Her din traps make Luigi's great ground mobility, worse. Luigi can't really camp with fireballs because of nayru. Overall I think this mu favors Zelda heavily.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I don't agree about Luigi at all. I think she counters Luigi pretty easily. Her din traps make Luigi's great ground mobility, worse. Luigi can't really camp with fireballs because of nayru. Overall I think this mu favors Zelda heavily.

But should Luigi change his style, he can really dig in and do damage. If he forces Zelda to approach without dins he can start a punish game and put her on the run. Remove her establishment and she becomes brittle.

 

[ECHOnce]

I can't say I know the MU well but I'll share my thoughts.

IDK If this vid hasn't already been posted, but here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1_vhJZK5Ec
^^
"High level" play between KDJ and M2K. Just judging by this and their 2 characters options, I'm inclinded to believe M2 has a slight advantage. As you could see, M2 had far better close area control, and easily juggled Zelda over the edges, which inherently leads to the chance to pull more percent on Zelda as she recovers. M2 also doesn't lack vertical Ko power, which is Zelda's least favorite.

Of course, Zelda still has a great recovery, and likely would not be gimped by M2. Alongside that, Zelda's kicks still bop M2 simlar to Melee, which can be 'nuff said' about that, and she still has a plethora of KO options (and some combo options) of her own to bop M2 around.

It seems like a small stage would actually give more advantage to M2 in this MU to me. As M2 can Uthrow or FAir for the vertical KO easy, (so obviously don't pick short stages) and juggle over the edge and get an early side screen BAir/UAir KO without ANY worry of suicide. Of course, stage choice would really just be choosing whether you want the KO and to be Ko'ed early, or not, for both of them.

Just my thoughts.

*Almost finished typing, then looked back at your post*

O . O

Holy moly that's a big post, you probably already said a lot of the stuff I just said, lol. You're very thorough.

Side note, that set was super hype lol. On topic, it showed me that a lot of my analysis was pretty off, which I was expecting since I don't have much experience and was theorizing parts of it.

Although, it should be noted that KDJ doesn't really play some characters the way they "should" be played (at least in PM; IDK how he plays in Melee); as Marth, he's known for having a pretty out-of-the-box playstyle and going for unorthodox combos/approaches/etc., and as Zelda, he seems to just go for good spacing and hard punishes (minimal use of Dins, I don't think he Teledashed once, and I didn't notice any Nayrus tech). Pretty much like...the best you could get with Zelda without actually looking up any tech lol. So IDK how good his vid would be for analyzing the MU. M2K is just sort of a better player than KDJ in terms of skill, at least currently.

One thing that I had forgotten is that while both are hard characters to gimp / edgeguard off stage, I think M2 would havea slightly easier time; His U-air/B-airs have good reach, and Zelda's Teleport is (as wall know...) pretty easy to predict and gimp during the initial animation.

lol thanks. It can be detrimental though like in this case, in that I was just spending a lot of time over-analyzing to a silly extent even though I was just going off on theories, had minimal experience, and from watching a few given videos showing M2's strategies against other MUs. Not entirely that productive aha.

 

[Shadic]

@ ECHOnce @ BJN39 @ Kaeldiar - Aerial DISJOINT (distance from hitbox to hurtbox) equals priority, just to set the record straight. Since if one character is aerial there's no clanking going on, disjoint really is the name of the game.

That's all.

 

[Mr.Random]

Some one explain Zelda vs Ganon.

 

[jtm94]

Some one explain Zelda vs Ganon.

Whoever messes up first is dead. Continue until 4 stocks are lost.

I hate Ganon honestly, but whatever.

 

[Mr.Random]

Whoever messes up first is dead. Continue until 4 stocks are lost.

I hate Ganon honestly, but whatever.

Soon he will have roller skates lol.

 

[CyberZixx]

I suspect Zelda destroys Ganon.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Zelda can destroy Ganon's recovery with Din's. Ganon can destroy Zelda's spacing with fair. Zelda can love jump/diamond dive out of Ganon's combos. Ganon can KO Zelda in 3-4 hits. I could do this all day but my point is that both charcters have the right tools to obliterate each other. I'd say the matchup is slightly in Zelda's favor (55:45) because of Zelda's edge guarding options. That said, Ganon's kill power is no joke. Zelda's floatieness doesn't help her handle Ganon's grabs (as pitiful as the reach is) and side b since at high percents they can be easily converted into stocks.

 

[Zerudahime]

m2 v zelda is easily zeldas worst mu.
I set it at 60-40 m2 favor for obvious reasons.

 

[WhiteCrow]

m2 v zelda is easily zeldas worst mu.
I set it at 60-40 m2 favor for obvious reasons.

Obvious Reasons= Up throw kills us super early, teleport fair kills us super early, tilts make spacing a nightmare, shadow ball kills us off stage at mid percents, vulnerability to confusion spike, up air juggles us for days. Did I miss anything?

 

[jtm94]

Soon he will have roller skates lol.

Yes, yes he will.

Most MUs are kinda close. No matter how bad Ganon is he can still at least win. It is easy to combo him, but he can downthrow fair until like 60 or 70? All his moves KO absurdly early and wizkick crushes everything.

 

[TimeSmash]

That's true, but disjointed hitboxes - like with M2's tail in his tilts, U-air, and B-air - will always beat out any degree of priority, so long as they can hit the opponents hurthbox without having their own hurtboxes getting hit. Which is, effectively, winning that particular trade due longer reach. As you said, reach technically =/= priority, but if a move is disjointed, it can "out-prioritize" any move it outranges.

Explain this in a different way haha. I never knew this fact, and I just want to make sure I get it.

So an attack like Marth's jab would beat out something like Peach's high priority Bair if and only if his body/hurtbox was not hit by Peach's Bair?

And then, obviously, if Peach's Bair hit his hurtbox, then she wins the trade?

Sorry haha, I'm kind of confused

 

[jtm94]

Explain this in a different way haha. I never knew this fact, and I just want to make sure I get it.

So an attack like Marth's jab would beat out something like Peach's high priority Bair if and only if his body/hurtbox was not hit by Peach's Bair?

And then, obviously, if Peach's Bair hit his hurtbox, then she wins the trade?

Sorry haha, I'm kind of confused

Yes exactly. It doesn't mean the move has priority, but it will beat out a move with priority just by hitting the hurtbox of the target through their attack.

 

[TimeSmash]

Yes exactly. It doesn't mean the move has priority, but it will beat out a move with priority just by hitting the hurtbox of the target through their attack.

This was a perfect supplement to what you quoted me from. Thank you!

 

[Lil Puddin]

What's this teledashing/dancing stuff I keep hearing about? I MAY be doing it already without knowing. But explaining might be nice.

 

[jtm94]

teledashing is using UpB whilst on the ground, then airdodging before you reappear.

You can aim the airdodge into the ground in order to get what is similar to a wavedash aka teledash.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Oh lol. I've been doing that for a while. But I discovered it by accident due to panicked button mashing. I never knew it had a fancy name.